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Davros1 posted:Thank god they didn't mention that the moon was originally a giant floating space rock that when it came into our orbit it knocked Earth's twin planet Mondas out its orbit and took its place. Mondasians: Whyyyyy? Moon-Baby: Because I must survive. Mondasians: We'll remember that!
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Oct 6, 2014 21:57
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The Moon Egg is probably there because of something the Fifth Doctor did, anyway.
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Oct 6, 2014 21:58
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The moon egg was formed by rock and genetic material kicked up from the earth after the disaster that wiped out the dinosaurs. That makes it moon sized dinosaur Adric.
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Oct 6, 2014 22:06
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Sieje posted:That makes it moon sized dinosaur Adric. The countdown reaches 5 seconds, both Clara and Courtney lunge to push the abort button when suddenly the Doctor blocks their way and lets the countdown hit zero. Doctor: Believe me, it's better this way.
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Oct 6, 2014 22:18
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Davros1 posted:Thank god they didn't mention that the moon was originally a giant floating space rock that when it came into our orbit it knocked Earth's twin planet Mondas out its orbit and took its place. I found this map of Mondas!  There's something familiar about it, but all the world's scientists can't seem to figure out what... Edit: I've got it! Mondas is Middle-Earth! Jerusalem posted:Mondasians: Whyyyyy? It does explain why they keep attacking it...
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Oct 6, 2014 23:23
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I'm going to echo some of the "I don't like this Doctor" stuff expressed earlier. I can stomach a lot of assholery from a character if I can sense there's a decent person deep down. I don't get that from Capaldi's Doctor. It's hard to put into words. 11 would've stopped the countdown and visibly seethed that he had to do it, because once again he gave humanity a chance and they blew it. 12 let the countdown happen because for all his  I'm trying to help you help yourselves , you can tell he really didn't care one way or another.Two bits I just cannot understand due to accents. Spoiling because they are near the end: - Doctor talking about the kid at the end: "First woman on the moon, saved the Earth from itself, [?wrath of pulzani], she becomes the President of the United States!" - Danny, in a later scene: "You're never finished with someone while they can still make you angry. [?tell him wiffle car], then tell me". MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 23:55
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Reading all this stuff about blowing up the moon made me realize that Moffat is reduced to ripping off Mr. Show skits now.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csj7vMKy4EI
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Oct 6, 2014 23:59
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...Bob Odenkirk had HAIR?
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Oct 7, 2014 00:10
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MisterBibs posted:- Danny, in a later scene: "You're never finished with someone while they can still make you angry. [?tell him wiffle car], then tell me".
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Oct 7, 2014 00:13
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Random Stranger posted:I found this map of Mondas! Here, see what I wrote on this piece of paper! The First Doctor, the worst magician ever.
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Oct 7, 2014 00:29
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So my fiancee and I had our wedding cake tasting tonight. We're doing three "levels" of cakes, and the bakers broke out the white chocolate toppers for the main cake...
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Oct 7, 2014 00:36
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CobiWann posted:So my fiancee and I had our wedding cake tasting tonight. We're doing three "levels" of cakes, and the bakers broke out the white chocolate toppers for the main cake... Can I marry the both of you?
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Oct 7, 2014 00:41
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Cojawfee posted:Regenerating is fine because it uses whatever magic to transform one human sized thing into another human sized thing. It doesn't create a whole new object larger than the original. Where did Rose's human Doctor come from then? Huh, start guy?
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Oct 7, 2014 01:14
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We just don't talk about that.
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Oct 7, 2014 02:18
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MisterBibs posted:"First woman on the moon, saved the Earth from itself, [?wrath of pulzani], she becomes the President of the United States!" "Rather bizarrely"
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Oct 7, 2014 02:26
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TL posted:Can I marry the both of you? Well thanks to the Supreme Court, same-sex marriage is legal in my state now...
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Oct 7, 2014 02:40
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I really loved this episode. I hope Courtney recurs again, it was a cool dynamic having multiple companions and the bit about her posting their adventure on Tumblr made me crack up. I'm just so excited about the characters this season - Clara and the Doctor both are getting loads of interesting character work that seems to progress meaningfully from episode to episode, and they're both a treat to watch on screen as well. e: also the science holds together as well as Doctor Who's science has ever needed to. A growing organism increases in mass, a dead organism decays. Nukes wouldn't explode the moon but would probably produce a shockwave large enough to stop an embyro's heart inside its egg, plus of course the radiation. An organism that lays a very large egg upon hatching seems materially less likely, but probably remains significantly more plausible than a bigger-on-the-inside spaceship that can travel through time. Android Blues fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Oct 7, 2014 |
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Oct 7, 2014 02:46
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My main hope after watching this episode again is this is the impetus for the Doctor easing up the dickishness a bit. I love Capaldi so far, he's an amazing Doctor, but it can be tiring with how abrasive he can be towards everyone.
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Oct 7, 2014 03:13
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I don't know who saw the first episode open with a dinosaur the size of Big Ben and didn't realise this was going to be the year of rolling with ridiculous implausible stuff.
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Oct 7, 2014 03:14
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 In the near future, the Doctor and Clara find themselves on a space shuttle making a suicide mission to the moon. Crash-landing on the lunar surface, they find a mining base full of corpses, vicious spider-like creatures poised to attack, and a terrible dilemma. When Clara turns to the Doctor for help, she gets the shock of her life... Peter Capaldi is the Doctor in Kill the Moon. X X X X X Cast Peter Capaldi (The Doctor) Jenna Coleman (Clara Oswald) Ellis George (Courtney Woods) Hermione Norris (Lundvik) Tony Osaba (Duke) Phil Nice (Henry) Written by: Peter Harness Directed by: Paul Wilmshurst Trailer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leGP3JXSSxQ Gifs by: J-Ru X X X X X Kill the Moon is an old-school episode, channeling the era of the Third and Fourth Doctors with an alien-yet-familiar landscape, flimsy science that holds up for the sake of the plot, and the Doctor pushing humanity to make the right decision. But the Doctor’s intentions backfire as Clara finally snaps and lets him know that she’s had enough of the way he treats her. With a creepy enemy and a hopeful, uplifting ending, Kill the Moon is one that will definitely be remembered by the fandom as one of this season’s standouts. Kill the Moon highlights the many flaws of Doctor Who. Science that falls apart under any sort of scrutiny, badly written and acted secondary characters, a monster that looks cool but really doesn’t matter in the long run, and high-handedness that drives home just how much of humanity are bastard-coated bastards with bastard filling, while making the Doctor look even more like a sociopathic jerk. Kill the Moon is one that will definitely be remembered by the fandom as one of this season’s major misfires. Both of the above statements could apply to this episode, one that's divided the fandom as the closing scene is one of the best in the show's history that's been brought about by the Doctor acting completely against any of his past incarnation's natures, forcing Clara to have a great character moment by stepping away at a critical moment in time, moments where the Doctor has always been involved. While it might be a sign of just how different Capaldi's Doctor is, it's very jarring and throws Kill the Moon off kilter. Clara admonishes the Doctor for telling one of her students, Courtney, that she isn’t special. In order to make her feel better, the Doctor takes them to the moon in the year 2049. Instead of arriving on the lunar surface, the TARDIS deposits them in a refurbished space shuttle, filled with over 100 nuclear bombs, as it crashes lands on the moon. The crew’s mission? To figure out what has happened to the moon. The moon has changed somehow, and the change has caused the oceans on Earth to swell up and swallow coastal cities under an extreme high tide. The Doctor soon realizes that the fluctuations in the tides have been caused by a massive change in the moon’s mass. Deep underneath the surface, something is coming to life…  Peter Harness is a well-known playwright and screenwriter, having worked with Kenneth Branagh on the award-winning BBC series Wallander. Kill the Moon is the first script Harness has written for Doctor Who, and it shows in both its positive and negative aspects. Harness’ script is simple in concept; something is wrong with the moon. It’s simple in terms of its monster. Who doesn’t get creeped out by spiders, especially spiders who we barely get a good solid glimpse of and who’s mandibles look like a cross between those of a Predator’s and those of a Xenomorph’s? It’s simple in terms of its crucial moment. Kill one life to save millions? The core of Kill the Moon is rock-solid, unlike the title satellite. Once you break through the thin outer layer, though, the story falls apart. There is a reason Doctor Who is called “science fiction” as opposed to “science fact.” Science is, for the most part, given lip service or hand-waved with terms like “translation circuit” or “Blinovich Effect.” But sometimes, science gets absolutely taken to the woodshed, and that happens here. “The Moon is gaining mass because it’s a hatching egg.” Eggs don’t work that way! A newborn creature lays an egg bigger than itself? Eggs don’t work that way! Humanity can either blow up the moon, at which point the tides and gravity go completely sideways, or they can let the moon “hatch” and…there’s no more moon, which means the tides and gravity go completely sideways. Or, humanity blows up the moon and there’s a giant flying corpse in the sky…which means there’s no more moon, and the tides and gravity go completely sideways. Or maybe the gravity of the dead corpse means the egg is “hard boiled” and the surface of the moon is fine, but now there’s a dead radioactive corpse floating around the Earth… And if a small Mexican private company can send three men to the moon WITH a fully-operational habitat, and all contact is lost with them right before the moon goes crazy, is it really going to take TEN years with mid-21st century technology to put together a space program using an old space shuttle, when the United States managed to put a man on the moon in less than that using mid 20th century pre-processor technology? And in ten years, ALL of humanity could barely scrape together a second-rate shuttle and a third-rate astronaut? Science can be handwaved, but the internal rules still have to be consistent, and they certainly weren’t in Kill the Moon when my nine year old stepdaughter looked at me (out from under the blanket because of the spiders) and said “Egg’s don’t work that way.” Her words, not mine. Kill the Moon definitely needed a pass with the editor’s brush or a science advisor’s microscope, as a few changes in dialogue could have fixed a lot of these scientific hiccups. To quote a fine individual with a Sylvester McCoy avatar, “Kill the Moon is the show’s Threshold in terms of scientific perspective.” Props have to be given, though, to the direction of Paul Wilmshurst, another first-timer for Doctor Who, for mixing some very polished CGI with the stark landscape of Lanzarote in the Canary Islands.  For the first time this season, the secondary cast is a drag on the episode, especially the two male astronauts who were in the episode solely to die in a horrible manner. Hermione Morris, as mission commander Lundvik, is supposed to be the hard-edge military voice of “reason,” but her presence is barely felt in the story other than as the person carrying around the nuclear McGuffin. I never got the feeling she was in charge in any capacity, even when she was arguing with Clara and Courtney. It’s an absolute waste of the character and the actress. As for Ellis George as student Courtney Woods, reprising her role from last week's The Caretaker, her entire purpose in this episode was to hit the standard “kid in danger” cliché. She's upset enough at being told that she isn't special that it takes a freaking trip to the moon to cheer her up. Once she's there, her excitement wanes, and she wants to back to the TARDIS once she realizes how dangerous things are. And then, she wants to come back once the decisions are being made, but barely adds any input to the discussion between Lundvik and Clara. It's feels like she's just a plot device solely to make sure the TARDIS is there for the Doctor to take off in, especially because at no point, even when Courtney is in danger, she isn't in danger. It's the same problem that Nightmare in Silver had; no Doctor Who script writer is ever going to off a kid. Two of the people who are going to be making the big decision about the fate of this creature and the fate of humanity have very little to contribute to the plot outside of their mere presence. It all comes down to Clara. Jenna Coleman, with what she is given, knocks it out of the park. She's upset that the Doctor, someone who's always held up that everyone is unique, has told one of her students that she isn't special, and while a trip to the moon isn't exactly the apology Clara had in mind, it's nice to see the teacher side of her, the protective side, shine through, both here and later on when she insists Courtney be safe inside the TARDIS. When the decision has to be made about the fate of the creature being born underneath the surface of the moon, it's Clara who steps up, imploring all of humanity to make the right decision...and then going against the decision at the very last moment, being told by the Doctor that she made the “right” decision out of two nearly impossible ones. Coleman sells the moral quandary with aplomb, remaining convinced of her position while acknowledging the difficulty of the choice. She attempted to hand the decision over to humanity, but in the end, she took responsibility of the the choice.  On the other side of the coin, Peter Capaldi once again sells just how different and alien the Twelfth Doctor is with a convincing portrayal of a difficult role. The Doctor says he doesn't know what is going to happen at this juncture in time, talking about “fluxes in time” being the opposite of “fixed points in time.” I believe he's lying here (Rule #1 – the Doctor lies), especially because blowing up the moon would have killed Clara and Courtney and there's no way, after Adric, that he was going to let a companion and an innocent child die on his watch. He's in rare form as he figures out what the secret of the moon's self-destruction is and coaches his advice to Lundvik and Clara with certain words and phrases. His action to leave Clara and the other two behind to make the decision themselves came as a complete shock to me, even though I knew the Doctor would be back. That's how well Capaldi sold that moment, that I believed the Doctor had abandoned Clara. The portion of Kill the Moon that the fandom will remember is Clara finally letting the Doctor have it. The Doctor tells Clara that he left her behind to help her grow as a person, to “take the training wheels off” by making an impossible decision. The Doctor has done things like this before, from minor things to insulting Sarah Jane in The Ark in Space when she gets stuck in an air duct to the cutting loose on humanity as a whole during the events of The Beast Below, specifically at Amy for choosing to forget the difficult choice she had to make. The Twelfth Doctor has just taken it to a much, much larger extreme, forcing Clara to make the “right choice” that he knew she would make. It had the potential to be a large character defining moment for Clara, and it was, but not in the way anyone expected, especially the Doctor. Clara screams at him for abandoning her, her best friend stepping away when she needed him most with a condescending comment along the lines of “you need to grow up” as an explanation. And she also cuts loose into him for saying that, for all he's done for Earth, for all the time he's spent on Earth, for all the times he's protected the Earth, that it was just as much his decision as hers. Clara is absolutely right, and after the teasing and the Doctor's obliviousness to her appearance and treatment of Danny in the previous episode, the Doctor deserves the shallacking she gives him. It is a very good scene, one where Clara just lets it all pour out and the Doctor looks on in confusion, wondering where he went wrong. It's an incredibly powerful scene, but it loses its impact because of just HOW we get there. The Doctor does what he's never done before and steps away at a critical moment in history, which after twelve incarnations is a major shock. If one believe that the hatching of the egg of a “flux point in time,” then there's no way the Doctor would have left such a mystery unsolved without his input and action. If the Doctor knew the end result, then him stepping away was an incredibly dick thing to do to Clara, and he deserves every scathing comment she gives him. But the Doctor should NEVER have stepped away in the first place.  Unless, this is a whole new Doctor who truly is that detached from humanity. After spending over 300 years defending Christmas, 300 years among humanity, growing old and being a vital part of their lives , maybe the Twelfth Doctor's actions are a direct, deliberate contrast brought about by his regeneration from Eleven. If this is the case, then...well, I kind of hope it is, that Moffat's long-term story arc for this season is the Doctor realizing he has been a major jerk and trying to make amends for it, much like what was planned for Colin Baker's time as the Sixth's Doctor. Because the gentle teasing and back-and-forth between the Doctor and Clara ever since Deep Breath has led up to this moment, and I can handle a Doctor with a few rough edges, but a deep caring for both humanity as a whole and humans as individuals. What I can't handle is the Doctor being nothing more than a detached asshat.  Next up - The Doctor boards the Orient Express but a deadly creature is stalking the passengers. … Peter Capaldi is the Doctor in...Mummy on the Orient Express.
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Oct 7, 2014 03:18
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I figured it out. The moon was an egg, but unfertilized. Male space butterfly came by and fertilized it. Those spiders aren't bacteria, they are space butterfly seed. That's why the Mexicans died right as the moon started messing up the earth. And they are super dense so the can break the shell of the egg and burrow to the nucleus. That explains the mass gain and why kid companion floated when the spider climbed around... she was caught in it's gravity.
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Oct 7, 2014 03:44
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RodShaft posted:I figured it out. The moon was an egg, but unfertilized. Male space butterfly came by and fertilized it. Those spiders aren't bacteria, they are space butterfly seed. That's why the Mexicans died right as the moon started messing up the earth. And they are super dense so the can break the shell of the egg and burrow to the nucleus. That explains the mass gain and why kid companion floated when the spider climbed around... she was caught in it's gravity. The extra mass came from the fetus growing inside the egg  .
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Oct 7, 2014 03:46
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The extra mass came from the fetus growing inside the egg In real eggs the growing fetus gains its mass from the yolk; the total egg mass doesn't change throughout the incubation period. Check. 
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Oct 7, 2014 03:48
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Fucknag posted:In real eggs Real eggs are also nothing like the Moon.
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Oct 7, 2014 03:53
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The extra mass came from the fetus growing inside the egg No the extra mass came from the massive load of super dense space butterfly spider seed! On a more serious note, the science in this one did take me right out of it, but not because it was stupid(it was) but because it was never even given a stupid explanation. The companions are always like, "But, Doctor, how did *magic that just happened* happen?" Then the Doctor is like, "It's not magic, it's science with words(or some other nonsense)" it's fun. When the increased gravity of the moon was introduced I was like, "oooooh I can't wait to hear the explication in this!" Then it never came. I do have a big problem with Clara's closing admonishing. I think it was perfect, but way to convenient that it happened in the episode RIGHT AFTER the one where they set it up with Danny warning her... I was hoping it would nag at the back of her mind for abb episode or two and build up to it... but this season has had a lot of payoffs for the writers without proper build-up.
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Oct 7, 2014 04:12
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CobiWann posted:So my fiancee and I had our wedding cake tasting tonight. We're doing three "levels" of cakes, and the Bakers broke out the white chocolate toppers for the main cake... You got Tom and Colin to make your wedding cake?
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Oct 7, 2014 04:29
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CobiWann posted:So my fiancee and I had our wedding cake tasting tonight. We're doing three "levels" of cakes, and the bakers broke out the white chocolate toppers for the main cake... Using New Paradigm Daleks seems like grounds for divorce to me .
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Oct 7, 2014 04:32
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CobiWann posted:no Doctor Who script writer is ever going to off a kid. 
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Oct 7, 2014 04:54
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Going to go out on a limb here and say that I really enjoyed the episode. It was great to see the Doctor excited about something new and exciting.
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Oct 7, 2014 06:11
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Occupation just got to Pompeii and he loving loved it, as well he should.
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Oct 7, 2014 06:16
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DoctorWhat posted:Occupation just got to Pompeii and he loving loved it, as well he should. It's Planet of the Ood next, isn't it? I'm interested to see his reaction after his response to the Ood in the Impossible Planet 2-parter.
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Oct 7, 2014 09:48
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Loved this episode. Love the 12th Doctor. Love this entire season so far. 
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Oct 7, 2014 10:23
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This was just a bad episode all around. The lead off with "nobody's going into space anymore that's so sad" just didn't work when the show just gets so many basic facts wrong (old shuttle designed for low earth orbit going to the moon, moon's effect on Earth, the non-effect of nuclear bombs on the surface of the moon in a vaccuum), and it's abortion message was incredibly patronizing. "Let the women decide and they'll make the right choice (ie life)", but the choice was made by two outsiders who didn't have to live with the actual consequences on Earth prior to the mission, and had no stake in the aftermath - not to mention glossing over the actual science/horrific consequences for all of humanity on the earth if the thing hadn't laid a new egg. It was a weak, convoluted argument against abortion that wrote off the whole Health of the Mother consideration with an "Oh she'll be fine". Literally without the moon there could be no complex life on earth, the environment would be too harsh. That's a pretty huge handwave even for Doctor Who in support of this abortion non-argument.
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Oct 7, 2014 10:30
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 The Juggernauts is a really weird and disjointed story that is saved by the (surprise surprise!) quality performances of Terry Molloy and Colin Baker. Bonnie Langford is at her most inoffensive in a straight story so far (The One Doctor was pure comedy) but her character's history and personality mean that her big moment in the story just doesn't quite have the impact it wants to have, feeling mostly out of place. An old and fairly obscure set of Who "villains" make their return in this story and are handled very well, but they're incorporated into a storyline that doesn't really fit with their rather clunky retro look (which is actually mentioned in the story itself). Throw in a supporting cast that get paper-thin development at best, the baffling choice to throw in a drug addiction subplot which also goes nowhere, a framing device that seemingly gets forgotten for most of the story and then basically thrown out the window.... what is left is a story that had a lot of potential but ended up just coasting by on the strength of the interaction between Davros and the Doctor. The story starts with the Doctor and Mel already involved in an adventure that has gone horribly wrong. The ship they're aboard is about to explode and the Doctor insists that Mel jump into an escape pod while he risks making it back to the TARDIS, promising her that he'll track her emergency beacon afterwards. He makes it, but before he can dematerialize his TARDIS is crudely wrenched away through time and space by an outside force. Mel crash-lands on a planet where she spends the next three months waiting for the Doctor's return, working with her rescuers on a science team lead by the crippled Vaso, a kindly old man who has uncovered a long forgotten build of robots called Mechonoids. Dubbing them Juggernauts, he works on getting them functional again and working out their baffling programming, hoping to turn them into an extremely financially lucrative line of service robots. The Mechonoids first appeared in First Doctor story The Chase, functioning by themselves in an empty human colony maintaining the place for their absent masters. Attacked by Daleks, the Mechonoids defended themselves and the colony in a battle where both sides seemed equally matched. Like many creations of the time, the BBC had hoped they might strike gold again and create another licensing juggernaut - it's easy to see Vaso as much like the BBC, hoping to turn the Mechonoids into a money-maker - hell, he even pits them against the Daleks later in the story! Their odd appearance gets lip service but this is an audio format, so it's important that the distinctive voice of the robots comes through. It does very well indeed, the Mechonoids sound perfect, an oddly cute and stilted voice that makes an odd kind of sense but obviously wasn't designed with user-friendliness in mind. How anybody in the story could think the bulky robots with near indecipherable communication abilities were the perfect choice for a new line of domestic and commercial service bots is beyond me. Even the reveal of Vaso's "prodding" of that way of thinking doesn't explain it away since he was communicating remotely with a very enthusiastic board who weren't exposed to this. It's fun to have them in this story, and it makes an odd kind of sense, but I'm not really sure who was gagging to hear more of the Mechonoids or why bringing them back felt appropriate to Big Finish. Supporting character-wise, there are a fair number of them and none of them really get any chance to shine even when they're given (an inordinate amount of) time. Two characters in particular - Geoff and Kryson - get a lot of time that really doesn't go anywhere. Geoff is cast as a heroic figure who makes a noble sacrifice, but honestly he comes across through most of the story as a bit of a creep, and his ending doesn't seem so much noble as kind of stupid and of his own making. There seems to be a desire to create a bit of a romantic subplot between Geoff and Mel, but it's presented a passive-aggressive, creepy "I'm a nice guy!" type of way and it is revealed that Mel is hardly the first he's done this to. Meanwhile, Kryson gets a weird subplot about extortion, drug addiction, corporate ladder-climbing and self-preservation... and then something happens to him that removes him from the story and is supposed to be horrific but sadly just creates a pretty hilarious mental image that robs it of any sense of horror. Other characters are introduced strongly and then promptly removed from the story off-camera in an abrupt fashion. Worst of all though is a sadly all-too-familiar feature of Big Finish audios that I call "chuckle-talk". It seems to be Big Finish's shorthand for "these characters know each other, are comfortable with each other, and sure do get on well together naturally, don't they?" and it feels forced as hell. Somebody says something, a character reacts with a wry chuckle or a bemused,"Haha well you're probably right about that  " and every time I hear it I just immediately get taken out of the illusion of the story. Some actors do it better than others (Maggie Stables for one) but in this story it felt particularly forced - Mel is supposed to have known these people for 3 months and developed a rapport with them, but this just doesn't sound natural.While Mel is pondering Vaso's offer to work with him on a permanent basis and suffering Geoff's passive-aggressive flirtation, the Doctor encounters the people who tore him through time and space. It's the Daleks, insisting that the Doctor now works for them and that - holding his TARDIS hostage - he will be transmatted to the planet Lethe to prevent the creation of a weapon capable of destroying the Daleks. The Doctor, being the Doctor, isn't going to do any such thing until he learns that Mel is on the planet, and that the kindly Vaso is in fact Davros, creator of the Daleks. It seems Davros - last seen by the Doctor being taken to Skaro to be executed for his actions against the Daleks - survived a crash of his prison-ship on Lethe. Making use of the security implants all humans on Lethe are required to have, he has hidden his true identity, with the ultimate goal of developing his Juggernaut program to design Dalek-killers. The Daleks claim they cannot go there themselves because Davros has designed a virus that will kill Daleks when they arrive, but that he won't expect the Doctor to be working for them. The Doctor has no choice but to agree, and travels to Lethe.... which is where things start to fall apart. Colin Baker is great. Terry Molloy is great. Their performances can't be faulted in this story, but it's a mess of a story and lacks flow, particularly in this segment. The Doctor arrives on Lethe, wonders about for a bit, has a surprisingly muted reunion with Mel and confronts Davros in about the most anti-climactic way possible. Davros' own goals and aspirations are muddied as hell because for most of the story he's still lying even when he isn't in character as Vaso, continuing to insist that he's looking to make money or take over a corporation. Then he claims he is devoted to the destruction of the Daleks as one last gently caress you before he allows himself to die. Then he claims to the Daleks that he was only practicing on the Mechonoids so he could know how best to "improve" the Daleks to be more superior killers. What is the truth and what isn't? It's always hard to tell with Davros, it pays to just never trust him I guess. Davros can't be all that surprised to see the Doctor since Mel has been right there for 3 months and hasn't exactly been subtle about the fact she knows the Doctor. The Doctor makes no attempt to hide his presence or work out what is going on beyond a cursory inspection before just blundering right on into the middle of Davros' plans. That actually makes a fair bit of sense re: the Doctor's characterization to be fair, but keep in mind the supposed framing device of working for the Daleks and his TARDIS being in their "hands". He doesn't exactly seem to have any great sense of urgency or concern, and doesn't bother to inform Mel of the situation either. This creates an odd brief, never particularly believable, and quickly abandoned subplot where Mel questions the Doctor's morality and likens him to Davros. I actually wondered if this was part of something building up as a scheme of Davros - given his use of security implants, suggestions of mind control and a few pregnant lines suggesting that maybe Mel would choose to stay with him, I actually thought maybe he had anticipated the Doctor's arrival and laid in a back-up plan of taking control of Mel. Hell, given that Mel had set up her own back-up program with the Mechonoids I thought it would serve as a parallel. But... nope. Mel thinks Vaso is great and that maybe Davros isn't all that bad, then she immediately figures out he is, and that's that. The framing of the Daleks using the Doctor as their agent is also quickly abandoned. He calls them in, they arrive surprisingly slowly, it turns out there was no virus and they just wanted more intel on the Dalek-killers before taking them on, and then the requisite fight between the Mechonoids and the Daleks begins only without the visual flourishes that were present in The Chase. In the meantime, the Doctor and Mel have discovered the horrible secret of Davros' "improvements" of the Mechonoids - he's stripped out brain and organs and spliced them into the Mechonoid frame to create horrible human-Mechonoid hybrids programed to be completely subservient to himself. Mel, horrified by how monstrous Davros is, makes the very out-of-character decision to order his destruction by the Mechonoids using her back-up command program. It's a not particularly believable or appropriate thing for a character like Mel to do, and while this may have been an attempt to "mature" the character it's a process that has no impact because within a few minutes she - without any coaxing from the Doctor - has already realized the error of her ways. Davros survives the attempt on his life anyway, and has his own out-of-character moment where he urges the Doctor and Mel to run because his self-destruct mechanism has been triggered and can't be turned of. It would be far more sensible for Davros to try and take them down with him, a fate he reserves for his surviving Daleks (it seems they defeated the great Dalek-Killers after all). Instead, his sacrifice enables the Doctor and Mel to use the Daleks' transport to escape and return to their TARDIS - the Dalek base apparently emptied out in the attack leaving them free to escape, which feels particularly contrived, they didn't leave a SINGLE Dalek to guard the TARDIS? Really? Of course we all know Davros survives anyway, so I don't know if this was an attempt at a real or faked redemptive arc for Davros or not. If it was, it wasn't well executed and certainly unearned, and it doesn't really make much sense to produce a story that ends with the viewer meant to believe a character is dead when we already know he appears in multiple stories set AFTER this one, even if they aired 30 years ago. The Juggernauts isn't a bad story, but it's a messy one and it suffers from a lack of narrative flow. It's saved by the performances of Colin Baker, Terry Molloy and, to a lesser extent, Bonnie Langford. It makes a lot of missteps, includes too many subplots and supporting characters, tries for a number of unearned payoffs (Mel leaving the music box for Geoff, Davros urging the Doctor and Mel to escape before his self-destruct goes off etc) and is a poor use of the Daleks whether they're after Davros or the brain-damaged ones working for him. It's fun to have the Mechonoids back under any name, and it's always neat to see how no matter what intentions Davros has he ends up doing something grotesque and morally reprehensible anyway. Just maybe wait to get this one on sale, there's no need to go out of your way to listen to it, there are better Molloy/Baker stories out there to listen to first.
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Oct 7, 2014 11:33
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My Q-Face posted:This was just a bad episode all around. The lead off with "nobody's going into space anymore that's so sad" just didn't work when the show just gets so many basic facts wrong (old shuttle designed for low earth orbit going to the moon, moon's effect on Earth, the non-effect of nuclear bombs on the surface of the moon in a vaccuum), and it's abortion message was incredibly patronizing. "Let the women decide and they'll make the right choice (ie life)", but the choice was made by two outsiders who didn't have to live with the actual consequences on Earth prior to the mission, and had no stake in the aftermath - not to mention glossing over the actual science/horrific consequences for all of humanity on the earth if the thing hadn't laid a new egg. It was a weak, convoluted argument against abortion that wrote off the whole Health of the Mother consideration with an "Oh she'll be fine". Literally without the moon there could be no complex life on earth, the environment would be too harsh. That's a pretty huge handwave even for Doctor Who in support of this abortion non-argument. I really don't think they had abortion in mind at all with this. It's a "life of one vs life of thousands" argument phrased in a way that has way more baggage for Americans than it does elsewhere.
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Oct 7, 2014 11:45
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Abortions don't generally take place right as the baby is about to be born. If anything it'd be a metaphor for a complicated, painful birth where it may be necessary to kill the baby in order to save the mother.
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Oct 7, 2014 11:49
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sethsez posted:I really don't think they had abortion in mind at all with this. It's a "life of one vs life of thousands" argument phrased in a way that has way more baggage for Americans than it does elsewhere. Yeah. Abortion is really not a controversial topic over here- aside from a few old conservative fossils and religious lunatics nobody thinks abortion should be banned. The last parliamentary vote on the topic had a vast majority of all political parties vote in favour of the status quo, in favour of abortion rights. The idea of a mainstream show like Doctor Who being used as an anti-abortion soapbox is bizarre.
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Oct 7, 2014 12:37
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AndyElusive posted:Loved this episode. Love the 12th Doctor. Love this entire season so far. Snap! Though is anyone else a bit wary about the next episode like I am? I've not got anything to go on but a hunch, but I got some slightly RTD-era vibes from the trailer both in its concept and its designs looking slightly cheesy.
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Oct 7, 2014 12:46
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Rat Flavoured Rats posted:Though is anyone else a bit wary about the next episode like I am? I've not got anything to go on but a hunch, but I got some slightly RTD-era vibes from the trailer both in its concept and its designs looking slightly cheesy. Add in an Australian pop star and it's basically Voyage of the Damned.
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Oct 7, 2014 13:08
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MisterBibs posted:
I'm pretty sure this was the "marries a man named Blinovich" line, which is just a throwaway callback to the old series.
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Oct 7, 2014 13:42
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