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marktheando posted:Yeah. Abortion is really not a controversial topic over here- aside from a few old conservative fossils and religious lunatics nobody thinks abortion should be banned. The last parliamentary vote on the topic had a vast majority of all political parties vote in favour of the status quo, in favour of abortion rights. Yeah, anyone reading this episode as being anything to do with abortion except on an extremely superficial level is baffling to me. The analogy doesn't hold up for even like two steps (if you don't get this abortion...billions might die!!) and, as mentioned, abortion is not a controversial issue in Britain at all, the pro-life movement is very much an American cultural artefact. As others have mentioned, the central analogy of the episode feels to be much more about reactive militarism, and the struggle between pre-emptively killing to protect yourself even if it's morally unjust, and risking your safety by respecting the life and autonomy of other people. This also fits with the season's overarching theme of soldiers, and how they may do terrible things in war with a notion of protecting themselves or others, and whether or not (the show leans 'not', but with the Doctor being an unreliable perspective it's still an open question!) it's possible to justify this. How the Doctor talks to Captain Lundvik when he realises she wants to kill the baby is very like how he's talked to the military throughout the season so far, and I think that's the moment where he thinks, 'oh, you're one of them, are you'. Android Blues fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Oct 7, 2014 |
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Oct 7, 2014 14:00
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Cleretic posted:Add in an Australian pop star and it's basically Voyage of the Damned. English pop star, Foxes, is in it?
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Oct 7, 2014 14:25
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The_Doctor posted:English pop star, Foxes, is in it? ...poo poo.
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Oct 7, 2014 14:28
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From the Toxx review thread:MrL_JaKiri posted:Why not just leave all stuff like stopping WW2 unsaid because there's no way a family programme about a time travelling alien can do justice to the concept without being crass? You've just reminded me why Turning Left made me feel uncomfortable later in the episode.
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Oct 7, 2014 14:38
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Example of it being crass in a whole lot of ways: Let's Kill Hitler
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Oct 7, 2014 14:41
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On the topic of Turn Left, I saw a (non-Doctor Who!) fanfiction prompt the other day which wanted writers to submit a 'turn left' AU where the normal events of a story progressed much worse because of one small, fateful decision somewhere down the line. It tickles me that this has apparently become an accepted fanfiction term. 
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Oct 7, 2014 14:42
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Android Blues posted:Yeah, anyone reading this episode as being anything to do with abortion except on an extremely superficial level is baffling to me. The analogy doesn't hold up for even like two steps (if you don't get this abortion...billions might die!!) and, as mentioned, abortion is not a controversial issue in Britain at all, the pro-life movement is very much an American cultural artefact. How anyone can watch a debate about killing an unborn being in order to safeguard others and not think it's about abortion utterly baffles me. And there are plenty of anti-abortionists in Britain; I don't know what evidence you have that the writer isn't one of them, but I've got a whole episode of Doctor Who that suggests he might be.
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Oct 7, 2014 14:44
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Let's Kill Hitler is so intentionally crass that it actually has them stuffing him in a closet, though. It literally doesn't pull its punches, it's sort of like To Be or Not to Be, except with a bizarre stupid plot about how the Doctor's sort-of niece is also his femme fatale wife and would-be assassin, making it a Very Bad Episode.
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Oct 7, 2014 14:47
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Unkempt posted:How anyone can watch a debate about killing an unborn being in order to safeguard others and not think it's about abortion utterly baffles me. And there are plenty of anti-abortionists in Britain; I don't know what evidence you have that the writer isn't one of them, but I've got a whole episode of Doctor Who that suggests he might be. Because as a science fiction analogy it doesn't stretch even to the first step. I guess you have to read the Earth as the mother of the child? So if you allow the baby to be born it might destroy your body and all your...population? Except you don't have any say because you're non-sentient? So it's up to all the parasites that live on you to decide whether to get the abortion or not? The essential premise of the episode is "allowing this creature to live would endanger many other people, possibly absolutely everyone". It doesn't apply to arguments surrounding human babies at all unless you reductively boil down "absolutely everyone" to "like, a pregnant woman's psyche or something, right?".
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Oct 7, 2014 15:14
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Bicyclops posted:Let's Kill Hitler is so intentionally crass that it actually has them stuffing him in a closet, though. It literally doesn't pull its punches, it's sort of like To Be or Not to Be, except with a bizarre stupid plot about how the Doctor's sort-of niece is also his femme fatale wife and would-be assassin, making it a Very Bad Episode. I have very mixed feelings about Let's Kill Hitler. On one hand, I love the idea of a way more reckless time traveller than the Doctor just being like "oh, let's run and kill Hitler, then!". I also like Mels! But River transforming from "Amy and Rory's devil-may-care friend" to "evil assassin" to "adoring fangirl" in the course of one episode that mostly takes place in the same room just feels like way too much. Having the same character attempt to murder, and then sacrifice their eternal life for, the Doctor within the course of about twenty minutes of sitting around talking is a narrative stretch that really does not function in the episode.
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Oct 7, 2014 15:20
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They very clearly were not trying for an abortion metaphor. It's unfortunate that Courtney uses all the "It's not even born yet!" language because that just sets off alarms for anyone who has had to be a part of that never-ending debate, but it was more about a unique creature that could possibly be a danger to Earth in the process of hatching and therefore vulnerable. Android Blues is right, all of the moral debate about it possibly being dangerous or the world exploding is hard to find analogues for in the possible birth of a child.
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Oct 7, 2014 15:20
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Android Blues posted:I have very mixed feelings about Let's Kill Hitler. On one hand, I love the idea of a way more reckless time traveller than the Doctor just being like "oh, let's run and kill Hitler, then!". I also like Mels! But River transforming from "Amy and Rory's devil-may-care friend" to "evil assassin" to "adoring fangirl" in the course of one episode that mostly takes place in the same room just feels like way too much.
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Oct 7, 2014 15:26
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Errors: In the episode it is claimed that the moon is an egg. This is scientifically inaccurate as the moon is not an egg.
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Oct 7, 2014 15:36
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Pwnstar posted:Errors: In the episode it is claimed that the moon is an egg. This is scientifically inaccurate as the moon is not an egg. Almost sounds like science...fiction! Oh...wait...
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Oct 7, 2014 15:47
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Pwnstar posted:Errors: In the episode it is claimed that the moon is an egg. This is scientifically inaccurate as the moon is not an egg. How do you know? Have you ever been there? Can you prove to me that the moon is not an egg? The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! Neddy Seagoon posted:Using New Paradigm Daleks seems like grounds for divorce to me No, this is grounds for divorce. The bakers asked us if we wanted any little hard frosting/white chocolate decorations, like a fez or a recorder. My fiancée asked for a pair of 3-D glasses because she loves Ten. Me? “Um…I guess…a chalice?” “A chalice?” “Yeah, it’s the only thing I can think of for Eight. What he drinks from to regenerate.” “Sigh…Cobi, can’t you pick a NORMAL Doctor, like Four? One people might actually know?”
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Oct 7, 2014 15:59
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This episode seemed like a very four thing to do. Get upset over what's going on and then casually decide "gently caress it, not my choice." and bail.
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Oct 7, 2014 16:16
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CobiWann posted:“Um…I guess…a chalice?” Make the topper Eight and Charley fusing together from Scherzo. Just get them to melt two other toppers together.
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Oct 7, 2014 16:29
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marktheando posted:Yeah. Abortion is really not a controversial topic over here- aside from a few old conservative fossils and religious lunatics nobody thinks abortion should be banned. The last parliamentary vote on the topic had a vast majority of all political parties vote in favour of the status quo, in favour of abortion rights. Except in Northern Ireland, of course, but we have been 50 to 100 years behind the rest of the country since we started. I mean, of course there's a very active pro-life movement in the UK, but they don't really have the same degree of influence with any of the political parties the way their counterparts do in parts of (for example) the United States. It's an issue but it isn't a decisive issue in the same way it often seems to be across the water. Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Oct 7, 2014 |
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Oct 7, 2014 16:30
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CobiWann posted:How do you know? Have you ever been there? Can you prove to me that the moon is not an egg? The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! The Bible clearly says that the moon is a Jesus egg.
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Oct 7, 2014 16:33
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thexerox123 posted:Make the topper Eight and Charley fusing together from Scherzo. Just get them to melt two other toppers together. Or shoes. They fit him perfectly.
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Oct 7, 2014 16:36
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thexerox123 posted:Make the topper Eight and Charley fusing together from Scherzo. Just get them to melt two other toppers together. I'd suggest a vortisaur but that's also a non-starter.
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Oct 7, 2014 16:53
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CobiWann posted:“Yeah, it’s the only thing I can think of for Eight. What he drinks from to regenerate.” A wig
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Oct 7, 2014 17:18
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CobiWann posted:
The cake will be able to see the Cyberman invasion before it happens, at least. Congrats, by the way! When's the date? Mine's coming up in November and it seems like neither of us have any free time due to the planning, which is part of why I sometimes don't end up seeing the latest episode until Wednesday.
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Oct 7, 2014 17:20
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Android Blues posted:Because as a science fiction analogy it doesn't stretch even to the first step. I guess you have to read the Earth as the mother of the child? So if you allow the baby to be born it might destroy your body and all your...population? Except you don't have any say because you're non-sentient? So it's up to all the parasites that live on you to decide whether to get the abortion or not? I'm saying it's an analogy. No, it isn't exact, but: a) "Mother Earth" is a well known metaphor. b) The Earth itself isn't sentient, but its population is; we are, to that extent, the Earth. When people ask 'what does Britain think?' they're not talking about the dirt. c) The Earth - that is, the population - was given the choice, quite directly (albeit in a loving stupid way which neatly matches the rest of this episode) of terminating the unborn lifeform. Given that the Earth is the mother in this analogy, possible destruction of the Earth = possible harm to the health of, or even death of, the mother. And then we are informed that that choice was wrong and the unborn must be protected. Sorry, but this is Aslan = Jesus stuff. It's not remotely subtle. By the way, hardcore anti abortionists aren't just prepared to risk 'a pregnant woman's psyche or something'. They'd see her dead before harming that precious foetus.
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Oct 7, 2014 17:24
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Unkempt posted:b) The Earth itself isn't sentient, but its population is; we are, to that extent, the Earth. When people ask 'what does Britain think?' they're not talking about the dirt. They might in Doctor Who (cf 42)
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Oct 7, 2014 17:28
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I don't know, Unkempt, I think you're really reaching on this one, particularly if you think it's as hammer-to-the-head as Narnia. The text has a very different focus, particularly within the context of this season and the anti-militaristic tones of the Doctor. The past few episodes have been building a criticism of the way the Doctor interacts with soldiers and judges them upon their life choices. It's one thing to say the subtext may be there, but to insist that it's patently obvious that it's the intention is, to be frank, kind of absurd.
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Oct 7, 2014 17:31
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Unkempt posted:a) "Mother Earth" is a well known metaphor. So? What does that have to do with this episode? Is that phrase used/alluded to in the episode at all? The creature wasn't born from the Earth in any way.
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Oct 7, 2014 17:38
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Forktoss posted:Or shoes. They fit him perfectly. Oh my giddy aunt, that’s perfect. Just have to find a picture of Eight’s shoes… That sounded less creepy in my head. Bicyclops posted:Congrats, by the way! When's the date? Mine's coming up in November and it seems like neither of us have any free time due to the planning, which is part of why I sometimes don't end up seeing the latest episode until Wednesday. Thanks! We’re getting married November 1st, because it’s All Saint’s Day/The Day of the Dead. The wedding theme is based upon stuff the two of us and our circle of friends love, so each table is based on some kind of fandom, like the Whedonverse or video games and of course there’s a Who table with a blue tablecloth. I actually have to write the trivia questions (as an icebreaker) tonight. How hard is it to come up with 20 questions about this show? One more bit of inspiration. Since this is her second wedding (it’s fandom-themed because her last wedding was SO drat traditional, this is her relationship regeneration’s backlash), she really didn’t want to stand around in heels all day long, so? Her wedding shoes are red Converse. Mine are midnight blue. And the quote on our his-and-her wedding pint glasses? “GET ME TO THE CHURCH!” We’re busy as all get out. Even with this being a more low-key wedding with friends doing things for free like the cake and ALL the cooking for the reception as her best friend is a professional chef, it’s still expensive as all get out. The sticker shock is STILL catching me by surprise. “HOW MUCH for tablecloths?!?” Most of the big stuff we ordered has already arrived, and we’re finishing up the specifics of the ceremony tonight with the pastor, but there’s still so much left to do. She’s stressed, I’m like “eh, got my suit, got my shoes, I know what time I’ll be at the church and I know where I’m drinking the night before. I'm satisfied.”
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Oct 7, 2014 17:42
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Yeah, the sticker shock still gets to me. It feels like every month I spend more money on something than I've spent on any single thing in my entire life, and we're keeping things fairly low key. It makes me want to go back and watch the Amy and Rory wedding episode and assign price tags to everything.
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Oct 7, 2014 17:49
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Bicyclops posted:Yeah, the sticker shock still gets to me. It feels like every month I spend more money on something than I've spent on any single thing in my entire life, and we're keeping things fairly low key. Don't. Don't do that. For either The Big Bang or The Runaway Bride. Even with currency conversion... Also, general advice, don’t see Gone Girl with your fiancée or wife/husband. Trust me on this one.
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Oct 7, 2014 17:57
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Metal Loaf posted:Except in Northern Ireland, of course, but we have been 50 to 100 years behind the rest of the country since we started. I was ignoring Northern Ireland, as is traditional. Yeah our main parties are pretty much united on the great wedge issues of American politics- god (don't talk about it) gays (pro gay rights) and guns (strict gun control).
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Oct 7, 2014 18:19
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Bicyclops posted:I don't know, Unkempt, I think you're really reaching on this one, particularly if you think it's as hammer-to-the-head as Narnia. The text has a very different focus, particularly within the context of this season and the anti-militaristic tones of the Doctor. The past few episodes have been building a criticism of the way the Doctor interacts with soldiers and judges them upon their life choices. It's one thing to say the subtext may be there, but to insist that it's patently obvious that it's the intention is, to be frank, kind of absurd. Well, it was patently obvious to me and my wife as well as several other people in this thread, but hey, other people are seeing different things so I'm just going to shut up about it. I mean, I'd much rather there was no intentional message like that. I am going to insist that if that message was unintended then it's an extraordinarily piss-poor job from both the writer and script editor, though.
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Oct 7, 2014 18:20
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I just read a pretty good analysis of the Abortion stuff in Kill the Moon that lays out the various readings involved and all the textual evidence that supports / refutes each of the readings. Forgive the pony bullshit, Froborr manages to not be a creep about that stuff so I'm cool with the guy. http://mlpomo.blogspot.com/2014/10/thoughts-on-kill-moon.html Personally, I figure that the original first-draft script probably didn't intend to send an anti-choice message, and that the moonegg stuff was just window dressing on the traditional, The Beast Below-style moral dilemma of killing/torturing one innocent for the sake of a "greater good". Then, when it was noticed in rewrites, they tried to engage with, and reframe, that symbolism - via stuff like giving the female characters additional agency, or having the detonator display "ABORTED" when the bombs were DISABLED. Which is to say, no one is crazy or "reaching" when they claim that Kill the Moon appears to have themes of abortion; but I don't think it has an anti-abortion message so much as an anti-murder message. For those in the anti-abortion camp, of course, these are indistinguishable; and for those who fight in favor of abortion rights, it may set off alarm bells of anti-choice rhetoric; but it's definitely not an anti-choice propaganda piece in intent OR execution. DoctorWhat fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Oct 7, 2014 |
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Oct 7, 2014 19:09
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marktheando posted:I was ignoring Northern Ireland, as is traditional. Yeah our main parties are pretty much united on the great wedge issues of American politics- god (don't talk about it) gays (pro gay rights) and guns (strict gun control). Our main parties are usually united on the issues of rioting, stonewalling, protesting, and sponging off Westminster. The political parties of Northern Ireland have elevated base pettiness to an art form, and the only reason people put up with it is that it is an improvement on the previous situation, when the electability of your candidate was often directly proportional to how many police officers they'd shot.
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Oct 7, 2014 19:35
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Unkempt posted:I'm saying it's an analogy. No, it isn't exact, but: Like yeah, if I had only had this episode vaguely described to me I might be able to agree with this interpretation. But having actually watched it it's abundantly obvious that it's a military metaphor because that's what they spent all their time focusing on.
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Oct 7, 2014 19:39
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The episode doesn't work as an abortion metaphor but feels like the writer was glaring in that general direction due to the set up of having three women deciding the life of a child (and the right thing to do being to save the life while ignoring the risk to themselves as hard as possible ) and the flimsiness of the premise that throws away basic logic in order to set up the conflict. Many actual condemnations of abortion through metaphor are similarly flimsy. Ot might not be what the episode is but it's what the episode often feels like it's doing.
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Oct 7, 2014 19:52
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Are three women usually involved in the decision to have an abortion? People keep bringing it up as evidence in favour of that interpretation and I don't get it.
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Oct 7, 2014 19:55
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I feel like "many of the principal characters are women, therefore it's about abortion" is super simplistic. There's zero mother symbolism in the story: neither Courtney nor Clara nor Lundvik have any particular connection to the creature other than as a foreign life. There's no suggestion that any of them have anything like a maternal or a genitive relationship to it. There's even an exchange where Lundvik suggests that a negative consequence of letting the creature hatch might be the death of a bunch of human babies, which really makes any attempt to contextualise her character as a strawman caricature of the pro-choice position extremely muddy. Incidentally, while rooting around for quotes from this episode, I noticed this little gem: quote:Doctor: Listen. There are moments in every civilization’s history in which the whole path of that civilization is decided; the whole future path. Whatever future humanity might have depends upon the choice that is made right here and right now. Now, you’ve got the tools to kill it; you made them. You brought them up here all on your own with your own ingenuity. You don’t need a Time Lord. Kill it or let it live, I can’t make this decision for you. I never realised the first time around that, of course, the President of America is there helping to make this decision, it's just that she happens to be fifteen at the moment. e: also, oh man, I never realised this, but Courtney was the girl in Clara's flashback in Deep Breath who tells her, "Go on. Do it." and who inspires her strategy for dealing with the Half-Face Man. That's really cool. It feels like this character has been quite subtly built up over several episodes! Android Blues fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Oct 7, 2014 |
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Oct 7, 2014 20:13
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Loved this. Kill the Moon, Listen, and Into the Dalek, I could easily slot into my top ten favorite episodes of the modern run (I feel it necessary to mention I haven't seen anything prior to the beginning of the revival). Only Doctor Who could have a line like "The moon is an egg!" and make it work. Of course it's a divisive episode, and watching it I was keenly aware of the elements people would hate, and why I love those elements. The whole goddamn mission statement of this season is that conversation between Clara and Vastra, as Sandifer said. The Doctor is stripped of his artifice, of his desire to please, and his eagerness to be liked. He's temporarily lost something very important. It's a reaction to his worst excesses that takes him off in the opposite direction. This season is darker, rawer, and necessarily Clara is its protagonist for at least half the episodes so far. Some longtime fans here have been horrified by what they view as the Doctor's new cruelty, that Moffat is reshaping the Doctor into a huge rear end in a top hat. I think, for those people, this season will likely play better on a second viewing a year or two later, assuming Moffat & co. stick the landing as I believe they can (knowing as I do now that the disastrous nature of season 6 was shaped in part by production troubles). Without the benefit of knowing for sure where this is going, it does play like the Doctor has regenerated into a massive dickwad. But Moffat is a keenly self-conscious, reflexive showrunner/writer, and he seems to have a definite showrunning pattern of course correction/excess/course correction/excess. The Doctor makes a persistent mistake, and is chastened for it, and the show mirrors that in its structure. So far, Twelve is not yet his own man, but merely the shadow of Eleven, his photo negative. I have a hope that by the end of the season he comes into himself, and Clara's rebuke is an important turning point for him. But as of yet he's just course correcting for the deception and vanity of Eleven (traits best symbolized by his invoking of his own legend in The Eleventh Hour, and his lie to the old Amy in The Girl Who Waited). more thoughts later.
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Oct 7, 2014 20:28
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CobiWann posted:Also, general advice, don’t see Gone Girl with your fiancée or wife/husband. Trust me on this one.  Back to Who, it's really taking a lot longer for this big plot to get going than I thought it would. Don't we usually get a big reveal around episode 6 or so? I can't recall. But all we've seen is Missy in bureaucracy afterlife, doing her thing.
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