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Electro-Boogie Jack posted:You can also see this at work with Uyghurs and Tibetans every loving day- it couldn't possibly be that regular men and women of the minorities are so unhappy that they stopped singing and dancing on their own, they must have been whipped up into an animalistic frenzy by the Dalai/Rebiya Kadeer/Ilham Tohti cliques with their ulterior motives and connections to foreign imperialists. Well I don't believe the students are being controlled by the foreign forces from behind myself. It's no where as threatening as other "color revolutions" or the Uyghirs riots. It's best comparison is still the Sunflower movement.
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Oct 7, 2014 02:23
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The Khmer only get textile work because of favorable quotas given to them by the US as a concession. The industry there has been beset by strikes and violence in the last two years.
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Oct 7, 2014 02:25
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icantfindaname posted:Foxconn is in the PRC, right? yes.
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Oct 7, 2014 02:41
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It's Taiwanese. The West pays the JOB CREATORS of Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore (more so the former two) to manage the Mainland Chinese. It's the circle of life and the way that most Western companies get around their total lack of ability to manage Mainland Chinese nonsense and also their potential liability for what goes on. Contract with a Taiwanese company, let them handle everything and OMG WHAT? THERE IS GAMBLING IN THIS CASINO? Meanwhile, the Taiwanese keep things in order operationally and communicate to their friends in the West in a way they can understand.
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Oct 7, 2014 03:10
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whatever7 posted:The Communist Part has had long history of manipulating/leading student movements with undercover CCP members to their desired direction, going back to the inception of CCP. It was a very important part of the CCP struggle with the KMT in the cities. In their eyes, no only this was student protest steered by outside forces, the protest organization and tactics were also very amateurishly executed. I did some readings on CCP movements in the Republic of China era and they taught people how to complain against the KMT "the correct way"
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Oct 7, 2014 03:51
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ReindeerF posted:It's Taiwanese. The West pays the JOB CREATORS of Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore (more so the former two) to manage the Mainland Chinese. It's the circle of life and the way that most Western companies get around their total lack of ability to manage Mainland Chinese nonsense and also their potential liability for what goes on. Contract with a Taiwanese company, let them handle everything and OMG WHAT? THERE IS GAMBLING IN THIS CASINO? Meanwhile, the Taiwanese keep things in order operationally and communicate to their friends in the West in a way they can understand.
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Oct 7, 2014 03:53
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Tupperwarez posted:Yeah, this right here. This is how it goes in the shoe industry at least, where the Taiwanese have everything sewn up pretty tight. Nice. Good job.
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Oct 7, 2014 04:00
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Pastrymancy posted:I did some readings on CCP movements in the Republic of China era and they taught people how to complain against the KMT "the correct way" What's wrong with that? Any political movement that aspires to be longer lasting and more effective than a mob needs to have leadership and direction. Popular anger needs to be properly channeled and directed before it becomes a productive, revolutionary force. Even in modern US, pundits/media outlets essentially parrot the talking point memo handed to them directly from the two parties to tutor people how to 'correctly' complain about the other side. Why does it suddenly become sinister when communists do it?
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Oct 7, 2014 04:20
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goatse.cx posted:What's wrong with that? Any political movement that aspires to be longer lasting and more effective than a mob needs to have leadership and direction. Popular anger needs to be properly channeled and directed before it becomes a productive, revolutionary force. Even in modern US, pundits/media outlets essentially parrot the talking point memo handed to them directly from the two parties to tutor people how to 'correctly' complain about the other side. Why does it suddenly become sinister when communists do it? Well, the Communists have a pretty storied history with being sinister in general, so I find it hard to fault such a mistake
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Oct 7, 2014 04:24
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goatse.cx posted:What's wrong with that? Any political movement that aspires to be longer lasting and more effective than a mob needs to have leadership and direction. Popular anger needs to be properly channeled and directed before it becomes a productive, revolutionary force. Even in modern US, pundits/media outlets essentially parrot the talking point memo handed to them directly from the two parties to tutor people how to 'correctly' complain about the other side. Why does it suddenly become sinister when communists do it? Seems kind of disingenuous for any party, American or Chinese, to pick and choose what people are allowed to air grievances about (you were not encouraged to complain about communism at open village gatherings) The research was fascinating. The scholar used a section to talk about the effects of crying at rallies and political demonstrations, which observers would note in very specific detail.
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Oct 7, 2014 04:46
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What's wrong with propaganda? Everybody's doing it! Where's the "I send my kid to the store for beer and fags!" guy when you need him?
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Oct 7, 2014 05:44
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwL-QCWgdbE&t=123s Propaganda is powerful, makes me want to go back on to the streets even when I'm tired. I do love some of the banners and slogans people made out there: "My parents are crying for me, but I'm crying for the future" "You think I'm dreaming but I'm not the only one" 
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Oct 7, 2014 11:12
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ReindeerF posted:What's wrong with propaganda? Everybody's doing it! Where's the "I send my kid to the store for beer and fags!" guy when you need him? Propaganda is just a tool. It can be used for good or for bad. There's nothing inherently wrong with it.
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Oct 7, 2014 13:14
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Farecoal posted:I dunno, did Puyi have any children That's not what the mandate means. The Manchus were able to claim the mandate and set up the Qing Dynasty even though they weren't the same ethnicity as the Ming. bitch
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Oct 7, 2014 16:15
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ReindeerF posted:What's wrong with propaganda? Everybody's doing it! Where's the "I send my kid to the store for beer and fags!" guy when you need him? Its only bad when those dastardly commies do it, obvs.
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Oct 7, 2014 16:23
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goatse.cx posted:What's wrong with that? Any political movement that aspires to be longer lasting and more effective than a mob needs to have leadership and direction. Popular anger needs to be properly channeled and directed before it becomes a productive, revolutionary force. I'd actually say that the most effective, per unit mass revolutions are those that simply create the most violence period. In terms of directing it, it generally goes where it needs to without too much direct supervision. See the Reign of Terror in France, the Red Terror in Russia, the Cultural Revolution in China, basically the entire history of the Khmer Rouge, these were some of the greatest and fastest political and economic changes in history, but when you boil them down they're just insane and barbarous mob violence against anyone perceived to be in power by those not in power. Really, revolution is synonymous with "kill those in power, replace them with me." I guess in terms of leadership and direction, its just "kill and arrest all these people and their families." Which is why HK protests were doomed to fail to start, HKers completely unwilling to use violence, PRC's instruments more than willing if necessary to kill everyone looking to destabilize things. Thankfully HKers are smart enough not to be killed, they saw the writing on the wall, and went home to the status quo.
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Oct 7, 2014 16:36
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Alas Boobylon posted:I'd actually say that the most effective, per unit mass revolutions are those that simply create the most violence period. In terms of directing it, it generally goes where it needs to without too much direct supervision. See the Reign of Terror in France, the Red Terror in Russia, the Cultural Revolution in China, basically the entire history of the Khmer Rouge, these were some of the greatest and fastest political and economic changes in history, but when you boil them down they're just insane and barbarous mob violence against anyone perceived to be in power by those not in power. Really, revolution is synonymous with "kill those in power, replace them with me." I guess in terms of leadership and direction, its just "kill and arrest all these people and their families." Which is why HK protests were doomed to fail to start, HKers completely unwilling to use violence, PRC's instruments more than willing if necessary to kill everyone looking to destabilize things. Thankfully HKers are smart enough not to be killed, they saw the writing on the wall, and went home to the status quo. Counterpoint: civil rights era America
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Oct 7, 2014 16:39
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Vladimir Putin posted:Counterpoint: civil rights era America For every MLK carrot there is a Malcolm X stick.
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Oct 7, 2014 16:40
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Alas Boobylon posted:I'd actually say that the most effective, per unit mass revolutions are those that simply create the most violence period. In terms of directing it, it generally goes where it needs to without too much direct supervision. See the Reign of Terror in France, the Red Terror in Russia, the Cultural Revolution in China, basically the entire history of the Khmer Rouge, these were some of the greatest and fastest political and economic changes in history, but when you boil them down they're just insane and barbarous mob violence against anyone perceived to be in power by those not in power. Really, revolution is synonymous with "kill those in power, replace them with me." I guess in terms of leadership and direction, its just "kill and arrest all these people and their families." Which is why HK protests were doomed to fail to start, HKers completely unwilling to use violence, PRC's instruments more than willing if necessary to kill everyone looking to destabilize things. Thankfully HKers are smart enough not to be killed, they saw the writing on the wall, and went home to the status quo. Your definition of effective is wonky as hell - defining revolutionary success as "kill those in charge, replace with me" does nothing to describe if the ideals and goals of the revolution that inspired the masses to move were actually achieved. Venting anger at those in power isn't a great get if that's all you get. Plus, the perpetrators of those waves of terror often didn't last in the long-run or were brought down by the cycle of violence they themselves instigated. Robespierre is not considered one of history's most successful revolutionaries. Successful revolutions have to include the American civil rights movement, the end of South African apartheid and the independence of India and in all cases while violence was part of revolutionary struggle it was ultimately the restraint of violence that played a necessary role in all three very different circumstances. Not to mention these actually achieved their goals instead of descending into an orgy of bloodshed. Oracle posted:For every MLK carrot there is a Malcolm X stick. The solution might not always be no violence, but the idea that more violence = better revolution is terrible and shortsighted.
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Oct 7, 2014 16:43
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I wonder if these talks are going to involve the government in any way compromising, or if it's basically just going to be the authourities threatening the protest leaders in a closed meeting room. There's a video at the link if you want that. I have a Canadian friend working in Hong Kong right now. Eight days ago he was pretty optimistic, he even said he believed the Hong Kong police would go on strike as for some reason he thought they were largely pro-democracy. I haven't had a chance to talk to him since, I wonder what he thinks now. Still, I'm trying to remain hopefull. Good luck to the protestors and the people of Hong Kong, may you be free from the stifling clutches of Maoism's corpse one day. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2014/10/hong-kong-activists-agree-talks-201410712854552756.html quote:Hong Kong protest leaders have agreed to hold talks with the pro-Beijing government as their numbers dwindled and they faced growing pressure to end their sit-in.
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Oct 7, 2014 16:48
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One of the guys that Occupy Central has studied the works of and they're basing this on is a guy called Gene Sharp who runs the Albert Einstein Institution basically by himself. You can check out his books in English here, a bunch of them are actively translated into Chinese and other languages. http://www.aeinstein.org/english/ If people absolutely wanted to donate to something to support tackling oppression but don't want to buy cheetos and mountain dew, I can't think of much better places than this because this guy operates with basically very little money and does a lot of work towards understanding how to fight power with nonviolence and translating that stuff to languages where it's actually useful to the people rather than just sitting around printing up this stuff in English.
Fall Sick and Die fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Oct 7, 2014 |
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Oct 7, 2014 16:55
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Oracle posted:For every MLK carrot there is a Malcolm X stick. I wouldn't characterize violence as the main driving force of the civil rights movement. If anything most of the violence was done to the people in the movement.
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Oct 7, 2014 17:12
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Hm yeah, the repeated rioting in almost every major city in the 60s had nothing to do with it.
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Oct 7, 2014 17:28
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quote:Robespierre is not considered one of history's most successful revolutionaries No, but Lenin and Mao are.
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Oct 7, 2014 17:35
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:Its only bad when those dastardly commies do it, obvs. The difference is that in China there is no plurality of opinions putting out propaganda. They're is only one unquestionably correct line of thinking. At least in the west we have many multiple parties and schools of thought all lying for their own benefit.
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Oct 7, 2014 17:41
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Chickenwalker posted:The difference is that in China there is no plurality of opinions putting out propaganda. They're is only one unquestionably correct line of thinking. At least in the west we have many multiple parties and schools of thought all lying for their own benefit. This just means that the west is better a lying due to the competitive nature of their propaganda system. Capitalism strikes again.
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Oct 7, 2014 18:13
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fart simpson posted:Propaganda is just a tool. It can be used for good or for bad. There's nothing inherently wrong with it. Actually it makes every issue black and white and extremely simplified so yes it is bad
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Oct 7, 2014 18:28
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Chickenwalker posted:The difference is that in China there is no plurality of opinions putting out propaganda. They're is only one unquestionably correct line of thinking. At least in the west we have many multiple parties and schools of thought all lying for their own benefit. Dems arguing we should dump all our money into the Green Energy market and Mil Ind Complex versus the Reps arguing we should dump all our money into Traditional Energy and the Mil Ind Complex doesn't strike me as a plurality of opinions but I get your point.
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Oct 7, 2014 18:32
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Farecoal posted:Actually it makes every issue black and white and extremely simplified so yes it is bad this sounds like a simplified assessment
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Oct 7, 2014 18:33
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As someone who saw the Occupy thing in the US get huge and implode due to its own idiocy (at least in my area) I really kinda had high hopes for this one to do it right, it looked like they really had a purpose, a code of conduct, and overwhelming amounts of courtesy and respect. (winning hearts and minds and all that good poo poo) We had counter protesters, but they were pretty minimal, and usually weren't sponsored by a nation state of money... If it continues, loving good on em but a lot of people are going to get hurt. If it gets completely crushed, status quo is maintained, this part of history is glossed over? not sure. Thanks for all the in depth info in this thread though. Its nice to see differing opinions on here without digressing into (too much) factional wharblegarble.
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Oct 7, 2014 18:33
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nthalp posted:If it gets completely crushed, status quo is maintained, this part of history is glossed over? not sure. If it is Tienanmen Part 2 I guarantee you that America will leak crocodile tears every year. And as biased against Hong Kong Occupy as I am, I definitely respect their relative professionalism and organization compared to the joke that was the US protests.
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Oct 7, 2014 18:35
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All I'm saying is that there are no classes, lectures, tutorials or anything happening next week (it's Reading Week), and most courses won't have handed out assessed work yet. This is for the place I work at but I would speculate that at least one other HK uni will be on the same timetable. So if it can keep going until then? Perhaps renewed momentum. Otherwise it was a good move on the students' part to get in that talks would not happen if police tried to remove the remaining few hundred people by force. Because if the police try to move them, then it looks like a) they are the ones disrupting the peace process; and b) it would cause massive outrage about broken promises and bring (at least some) people back out onto the street simplefish fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Oct 7, 2014 |
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Oct 7, 2014 18:36
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:If it is Tienanmen Part 2 I guarantee you that America will leak crocodile tears every year. Yeah because you know, We give gently caress all about other peoples internal struggles if we cant make some form of profit/military assistance/exclusive deal on the arrangement. We are all altruistic and stuff... right? Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:And as biased against Hong Kong Occupy as I am, I definitely respect their relative professionalism and organization compared to the joke that was the US protests. In that we are completely and totally in agreement.
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Oct 7, 2014 18:38
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nthalp posted:Yeah because you know, We give gently caress all about other peoples internal struggles if we cant make some form of profit/military assistance/exclusive deal on the arrangement. Maybe? I dunno, I'm just commenting on something my wife noticed since she moved here. Mainly how all of our news agencies take a time out every June 4th to co-opt the Tienanmen protests.
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Oct 7, 2014 18:41
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The key thing here is that there will always be a core of true believers. And it is now clear to everyone that it is trivially easy to walk into the street and block traffic. It can always be done again even if the government successfully clears the current camps. They're prepared to stop it in Mong Kok, Causeway Bay and Admiralty from happening again? Let's block Wan Chai next time. Or Tsim Sha Tsui. Or civil servant mansions on the Peak. Or the Hong Kong Golf Club. Pandora's Box has been opened and I don't see a way to close it. I don't think the government will give in, but there's also no way to stop every last true believer who wants to take to the streets. That's why, in the long run, I'd bet on the protesters. It's easier for the government to give them a compromise than to somehow get them all, down to the last man, to give up and go home.
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Oct 7, 2014 18:53
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Bloodnose posted:The key thing here is that there will always be a core of true believers. And it is now clear to everyone that it is trivially easy to walk into the street and block traffic. It can always be done again even if the government successfully clears the current camps. They're prepared to stop it in Mong Kok, Causeway Bay and Admiralty from happening again? Let's block Wan Chai next time. Or Tsim Sha Tsui. Or civil servant mansions on the Peak. Or the Hong Kong Golf Club. I largely agree, but continued agitation would require a deteriorating political climate. China's changes for the positive, economically, was a big help in getting them to put Tienanmen behind them.
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Oct 7, 2014 19:18
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:I largely agree, but continued agitation would require a deteriorating political climate. China's changes for the positive, economically, was a big help in getting them to put Tienanmen behind them. Hong Kong is not going to go upwards, put it that way.
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Oct 7, 2014 19:22
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Zohar posted:Hong Kong is not going to go upwards, put it that way. Nor is China, either.
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Oct 7, 2014 19:31
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Well China's a debatable case and it will probably carry on carrying on for a while before it hits the middle income trap I imagine. Hong Kong, I think, has nowhere to go but down until there are serious reforms.
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Oct 7, 2014 19:34
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I always keep in mind that it's so hard to strategically direct these protests. You really need to make the right decisions at the right time like a 20 punch combo to really build momentum and to have any chance at change. One example of a misstep on the government side was to use tear gas-they luckily were able to recover from that. It's so hard to steer these protests and at the same time react to changing conditions/events on the ground. And apparently one of the protest leaders is that 17 yo dude so altogether I'm pretty impressed that it made it thus far.
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Oct 7, 2014 19:47
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