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What happens if you cast a lethal Burn Away on Kozilek, Butcher of Truth? Does he and the graveyard get exiled by Burn Away's exile, or does the library get shuffled before Burn Away's exile?
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Oct 8, 2014 18:16
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Angry Grimace posted:What happens if you cast a lethal Burn Away on Kozilek, Butcher of Truth? Does he and the graveyard get exiled by Burn Away's exile, or does the library get shuffled before Burn Away's exile? Depend on whose turn is it, unless I'm misremembering Kozilek. If it's your turn, Kozilek shuffles it first, if it's theirs, it all gets exiled. They're both triggered abilities, so they go on the stack at the same time, in APNAP (active player - non active player) order. The one belonging to the non-active player resolves first.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:17
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Serperoth posted:Depend on whose turn is it, unless I'm misremembering Kozilek. If it's your turn, Kozilek shuffles it first, if it's theirs, it all gets exiled. This is correct.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:18
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I understand all that's changed is the templating, but I don't understand how the initial version was functionally equivalent to the new one. Can someone explain? 
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Oct 8, 2014 18:24
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toadee posted:OK I realize that you can replace Glittering Wish with Idyllic Tutor, but, wouldn't banning Wish greatly restrict your ability to tutor up answers and therefor possibly be the card to get banned? I'm not even saying it's the smartest move but I know Wizards will be loathe to ban a brand new card, It'd hurt, yeah, but it'd only hit the deck's resiliency, not so much its consistency or explosive potential. Wizards is going to recognize that Jeskai Ascendancy is only playable in this specific deck, whereas Wish can at least theoretically pop up elsewhere.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:28
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Rinkles posted:I understand all that's changed is the templating, but I don't understand how the initial version was functionally equivalent to the new one. Can someone explain? Imagine it as 2 single damage shields. It's a wording update that makes it explicitly clear what happens if someone Hurricanes for 1 and you have a flying dork.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:29
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toadee posted:OK I realize that you can replace Glittering Wish with Idyllic Tutor, but, wouldn't banning Wish greatly restrict your ability to tutor up answers and therefor possibly be the card to get banned? I'm not even saying it's the smartest move but I know Wizards will be loathe to ban a brand new card, There once was a 3-mana enchantment that Wizards was loathe to ban, and the result was a lot of lovely Magic because they banned support cards instead of just banning Necropotence.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:30
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Rinkles posted:I understand all that's changed is the templating, but I don't understand how the initial version was functionally equivalent to the new one. Can someone explain? The only change was a contextual one - under the old rules, it would see "1 damage to Permanent A" and "1 damage to Permanent B". Now it sees "1 damage to Permanents A and B", which adds up to the same thing when it's all from a single source.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:31
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I Love You! posted:I'm going to go out on a limb and say that banning Treasure Cruise might actually be the correct move since it's going to enable whatever combo deck comes around even if it isn't Jeskai Ascendency. That card is BARELY fair in standard and might prove not to be if people break it. In the eternal formats it basically rewards an ever-escalating sequence of dick moves with 4 maindeck Ancestral Recalls. Cruise is so good check out where it's showing up: Someone I know 4-0'ed a daily with it. 4 Goblin Guide 4 Eidolon of the Great Revel 4 Rift Bolt 4 Chain Lightning 4 Lava Spike 2 Price of Progress 4 Fireblast 4 Lightning Bolt 2 Searing Blaze 2 Searing Blood 4 Treasure Cruise 2 Gitaxian Probe 4 Scalding Tarn 2 Bloodstained Mire 10 Mountain 4 Volcanic Island --- 3 Smash to Smithereens 4 Dragon's Claw 4 Grafdigger's Cage 2 Tormod's Crypt 2 Sulfuric Vortex R1: Merfolk (2-1): I won the first game, and lost the second to Chalice@1. For game three, I boarded in Smash and didn't look back. R2: Dark Times (2-1): I win game 1 stranding Spoils of the Vault in his hand. I actually resolve a third-turn Cruise this game. Game 2, he has Leyline and combos me out. Game 3, he assembles a third-turn 20/20, but doesn't live long enough to attack with her. R3: Miracles (2-0): I just burn him out, and while he gets Counterbalance and Top in game 2, plenty of cards in this deck don't cost one. R4: Grixis Delver (2-0): The Searing cards turn his creatures into Lava Spikes, and his taxing counters are easy to play around when he can't keep a creature on the table. He couldn't find monastery swiftspears or more fetches before the daily but those seem like good inclusions In short, 
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Oct 8, 2014 18:31
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AATREK CURES KIDS posted:There once was a 3-mana enchantment that Wizards was loathe to ban, and the result was a lot of lovely Magic because they banned support cards instead of just banning Necropotence. Let me be clear, I'm not advocating for the banning of Glittering Wish instead of Jeskai Ascendancy, I'm just wondering if it's possible that that's what might happen instead, because Wizards.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:32
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:
Dark Times?
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Oct 8, 2014 18:38
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AATREK CURES KIDS posted:There once was a 3-mana enchantment that Wizards was loathe to ban, and the result was a lot of lovely Magic because they banned support cards instead of just banning Necropotence. It sucks because banning Wish makes the deck worse without ruining it, but is also banning out the card for a few other decks and cratering its value, while banning Ascendancy just ruins the deck. It's not an easy decision, I don't think.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:38
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:Cruise is so good check out where it's showing up: Draw 3 in RDW for U + shrinking an enemy goyf seems good, i mean i GUESS ...only because it's immune to counterbalance though. Oh and fireblast doesn't combo with it at all edit: The best play I've seen has been a t3 or t4? Searing Blood on a goyf, cast Cruise, shrink goyf to 1/2 (opponent had a sorc in yard), goyf dies, attack. 3 mana. I Love You! fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Oct 8, 2014 |
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Oct 8, 2014 18:39
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The choice seems simple to me. Jeskai Ascendancy doesn't have any real play value in Modern beyond comboland Christmas.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:40
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Angry Grimace posted:The choice seems simple to me. Jeskai Ascendancy doesn't have any real play value in Modern beyond comboland Christmas. I mean it's obviously the correct choice from a format balance perspective, but is it the one Wizards wants to make, seeing as how it will be banning out a deck before it sees a season of play?
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Oct 8, 2014 18:42
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I Love You! posted:Basically from the moment they spoiled Cruise it should have been apparent that several formats were about to be rocked HARD because vomiting 6-7 cards to the yard by t3 is pretty much completely trivial. And yet the majority of Modern and Legacy players were completely lukewarm on the card after it was spoiled. It was basically one guy on Star City standing up and saying, "hey guys, this card's going to be nuts," and the majority of the response was players going "Eh...maybe?" It then took another guy to actually have the courage to play it as a 4-of in the Open, where everyone else was at best hedging and playing 1 or 2 in their decks. My point is that it's very easy in hindsight to say how obviously broken a card is in whatever format, but it's actually not obvious at all, and most people will remain unconvinced until you actually jam 4 in your deck and win a major with it. Even Rabblemaster was still cheap as dirt for like 2 weeks following Pro Tour JiN, and the card had 20 pros giving it its stamp of approval.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:45
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Angry Grimace posted:The choice seems simple to me. Jeskai Ascendancy doesn't have any real play value in Modern beyond comboland Christmas. Hey there should be nothing wrong with comboland Christmas, it just needs to be properly balanced in its ecosystem.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:46
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qbert posted:And yet the majority of Modern and Legacy players were completely lukewarm on the card after it was spoiled. It was basically one guy on Star City standing up and saying, "hey guys, this card's going to be nuts," and the majority of the response was players going "Eh...maybe?" It then took another guy to actually have the courage to play it as a 4-of in the Open, where everyone else was at best hedging and playing 1 or 2 in their decks. Cruise is about as close to obvious as you can get. Draw 3 is a known factor. Cantrips and fetch lands are a known factor. I have no idea why people were/are resistant to this card but I've been talking it up everywhere since the spoiler was first posted and it's done EXACTLY what I figured it would, because, you know, draw 3 for 1. We've seen that card before. Really. I honestly think we're still just scratching the tip of the iceberg with this card, though. If it doesn't eat a ban it's going to get very silly very fast in older formats.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:48
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toadee posted:Hey there should be nothing wrong with comboland Christmas, it just needs to be properly balanced in its ecosystem. The ecosystem in this case is "nothing consistent before t4" which this deck breaks. Caveat: I have yet to play with/against it.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:53
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I Love You! posted:Cruise is about as close to obvious as you can get. Draw 3 is a known factor. Cantrips and fetch lands are a known factor. I have no idea why people were/are resistant to this card but I've been talking it up everywhere since the spoiler was first posted and it's done EXACTLY what I figured it would, because, you know, draw 3 for 1. We've seen that card before. Really. People underestimate Delve, especially if they've never seen how fast a graveyard builds up in a format with fetches, like legacy or modern. toadee posted:Hey there should be nothing wrong with comboland Christmas, it just needs to be properly balanced in its ecosystem. It's not, that is the problem.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:53
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I've been playing Bob Huang's Swiftspear Delver list online and it is a blast. Chained cruises is incredible, and with all the free spells Swiftspear is pretty consistently a 3/4 haste for R when I need it to be, which it turns out is pretty solid in delver decks. god bless ktk
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Oct 8, 2014 18:53
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I Love You! posted:Cruise is about as close to obvious as you can get. Draw 3 is a known factor. Cantrips and fetch lands are a known factor. I have no idea why people were/are resistant to this card but I've been talking it up everywhere since the spoiler was first posted and it's done EXACTLY what I figured it would, because, you know, draw 3 for 1. We've seen that card before. Really. It wasn't that obvious it would be such a force, mostly because delve is tricky to evaluate. People were all thinking that yeah, the first one's great but drawing a second is just awful, when in actuality you can pretty much cast as many as you want.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:55
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I Love You! posted:Cruise is about as close to obvious as you can get. Draw 3 is a known factor. Cantrips and fetch lands are a known factor. I have no idea why people were/are resistant to this card but I've been talking it up everywhere since the spoiler was first posted and it's done EXACTLY what I figured it would, because, you know, draw 3 for 1. We've seen that card before. Really. If it was just a reprint of Ancestral Recall, yes the card would be obvious. But people looked at the card and went, "Okay it's basically a Recall...but in the mid game. Is that good enough? What if I have multiples in my opening hand? What about my precious Goyfs and Snapcasters? What if they play Rest in Peace? Magic makes my head hurt guys, I'll stick to ole trusty Ancestral Vision." Most people cannot correctly evaluate a card until they see it post results.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:55
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change thread icon to  , kthx
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Oct 8, 2014 18:58
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Sorin and Sarkhan's Excellent Cruise
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Oct 8, 2014 18:59
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The biggest question with Treasure Cruise is, how happy are they to keep a new card in the format compared to an old card? I don't think it's significantly stronger than Brainstorm, which has been a Legacy stable since before Legacy was even invented. Is Wizards content to have a second powerful blue spell that's as good as Brainstorm?
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Oct 8, 2014 19:00
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Madmarker posted:It's not, that is the problem. I know, was just saying that since people often hate all combo decks "because combo".
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Oct 8, 2014 19:01
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I Love You! posted:it basically rewards an ever-escalating sequence of dick moves I love this because it basically slam-dunks the reasons why Treasure Cruise is probably a lot worse for the formats than the other "Ancestral, but with an added cost" variants. Take Visions, for example, as the other really playable one--you need to either wait out the suspend, get lucky on a cascade, or set up a cascade. Sure decks can do it for value, which is why it's still a good card, but it's not trivial, nor are the mechanics by which you end up casting it inherently toxic-feeling, unless I guess you hate cascade more than I do. Treasure Cruise, on the other hand? More than anything else, rewards you for incidentally rubbing blue cantrips all over your dick, and/or fixing your mana (with lots of shuffling!). Both things we ought to walk back the amount of incentive for doing, not increase it. Okay, Ancestral Visions in cascade decks also synergizes well with Brainstorm, Ponder, etc., but it doesn't get cast that way anywhere near all the time, whereas casting a 1-mana blue spell to lovingly fondle the top of your library will always make your inevitable Cruise that much more castable. I say this as someone who enjoys being the guy casting card selection spells (who wouldn't?) but realizes that they're probably a lovely thing for the game at their current density. Also, repostin' just cuz
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Oct 8, 2014 19:02
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AATREK CURES KIDS posted:The biggest question with Treasure Cruise is, how happy are they to keep a new card in the format compared to an old card? I don't think it's significantly stronger than Brainstorm, which has been a Legacy stable since before Legacy was even invented. Is Wizards content to have a second powerful blue spell that's as good as Brainstorm? It's a completely different sort of card than brainstorm though and can go in a wider variety of decks. Brainstorm is a cantrip and tuck/card selection card which is obviously incredible at what it does but also is used for specific purposes, and not all decks care about this/it's not always relevant when you can cast it. It can be, at its best, an effective Ancestral but only if you're looking at card selection rather than simply quantity. Treasure Cruise is a slamdunk draw 3 for 1-2 with no real caveats in the decks that run it, and the decks that run it don't care as much about card selection because they just keep vomiting what they get at a rate that the other person cannot really hope to match. When your goal is to simply hurl more lightning bolts and play more fetches/fill your yard again to Cruise a second and third time, especially with crap like fireblast and delver in the format to reward playing lots of cheap poo poo that loads a yard, Cruise is just bonkers and effectively a true (sorcery speed) recall with no downsides. Why tuck and shuffle lands when you can play them, crack the fetch, sac the land to something, and already be 3/7 of the way toward your next recall? Your opponent is not going to win the long game against this sort of card advantage engine, and the engine happens to be "play the cards you would obviously already be playing but also draw twice as many of them for no opportunity cost". I Love You! fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Oct 8, 2014 |
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Oct 8, 2014 19:34
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eh, deathrite irrevocably changed legacy, some cards just do that. instead of reaching for the ban hammer, might as well accept it and try to adapt.
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Oct 8, 2014 19:36
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I Love You! posted:
Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void aren't relevant downsides?
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Oct 8, 2014 19:36
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Molybdenum posted:The ecosystem in this case is "nothing consistent before t4" which this deck breaks. It's a lovely ecosystem to begin with so I'm not seeing a problem here.
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Oct 8, 2014 19:38
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Zoness posted:Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void aren't relevant downsides? Sideboard hosers are not intrinsically downsides, since every deck has hosers, unless people start maindecking them. And it's not like RDW or many other decks abusing Cruise without depending on it for combo are horribly injured by decks sideboarding in cards that stop literally 1 of the cards in an otherwise totally salient deck and do nothing vs the rest of it, which probably only helps their overall matchup (especially since they can side out the cruises if they want leading to dead cards). Delver/Swiftspear burn for example is a fantastic deck that can win games without Treasure Cruise, especially if the opponent is keeping hosers that stop none of the damage and are there specifically to fight against a single 4-of draw spell. I'm not sure 4-8 SB cards are really a reason not to consider this card an absolute house. I Love You! fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Oct 8, 2014 |
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Oct 8, 2014 19:40
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TheKingofSprings posted:It's a lovely ecosystem to begin with so I'm not seeing a problem here. While I do not inherently disagree with you, I think modern would be incredibly improved by the addition of Wasteland, that is not what Wizard's is aiming for, nor are there decks that really can hope to compete. The whole format would be a whole bunch of solitare where people are just seeing who can play with their deck until it ejaculates a win the fastest. Personally, I'm not really interested in nerdy onanism, the tables tend to be sticky enough as is.
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Oct 8, 2014 19:44
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Feeling a little uneasy that the thread seems to be consigning monoblack to a cold grave after I traded unused fetches and other bits and pieces for an entire monoblack aggro deck, but at least I now have a fairly playable deck for society events and FNMs! However, did have a couple of questions though for those who play monoblack much: 1. How do you deal with Courser reliably? Caryatid I know you can Bile Blight out, but is there a decent way of killing it off quickly without having to throw dudes into its annoying face? A friend suggested sideboarding Stab Wounds to make them less safe to have out, though that doesn't seem to deal with the whole 'lands as far as the eye can see' problem. 2. How many of the hand reveal/discard spells should I be running mainboard? I don't have Thoughtseizes right now but I do have 2 Despises, and they've done work so far. I get that Thoughtseize is usually considered better except against the fastest of aggro/burn decks, but is there a case for running 2 mainboard each and 2 sideboard and swapping around as needed? 3. Opinions on Mardu Skullhunter and Master of the Feast? So far being able to Bloodsoaked/Scarhide/Tormented Hero T1 into T2 raided Skullhunter has been pretty good, but I'm wondering if running another good monoblack card in its place is worth it (Spiteful Returned?). Master of the Feast has my circle of friends and society group in an exact 50/50 split between 'absolutely necessary' and 'avoid like the plague', so am interested to gauge what the thread response is to it. Thanks in advance! The Wicked Wall fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Oct 8, 2014 |
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Oct 8, 2014 19:59
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Bugsy posted:T1 Glistener Elf, t2 land into double groundswell and a mutagenic growth can kill which is less god hand than storm would be but it is possible. Don't forget Might of Old Krosa for redundancy. or 1 of those and triple mutagenic. There's lots of combinations that can do it.
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Oct 8, 2014 20:09
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The problem is it's really hard to deal with courser reliably without slowing down your clock a lot. I'm not at all certain what the best way is to do it and while monoblack at least has some options and can go over the top with bestow it's still a huge problem especially when it's feeding directly into a siege rhino or a polukranos who can just wipe the board the next turn. Green builds were already really good against aggro pre-rotation but the presence of Lifebane Zombie kept them in check. Now they get to run rampant and I'm not sure how much play non-midrange decks are going to have for the next few months.
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Oct 8, 2014 20:11
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The Wicked Wall posted:Feeling a little uneasy that the thread seems to be consigning monoblack to a cold grave after I traded unused fetches and other bits and pieces for an entire monoblack aggro deck, but at least I now have a fairly playable deck for society events and FNMs! 1. Mogis' Marauder and hero's downfall, then bestowing gnarled scarhides and heralds. Thoughtseize and despise in early turns as well. 2. At least 4. Thoughtseize is better if you're playing aggro because you can snatch board wipers like drown and anger as well as caryatids and coursers, but despise is a good substitute. I am currently running 4 Thoughtseize in the main and 4 despise in the side, and I swap them around based on the matchup. Green decks with lots of fat butts get despises sided in. 3. Skullhunter bad, master good. Skullhunter is a bad conditional discard of your opponents choice and you're better off dropping a pain seer or two 1-drops on turn 2. A lot of decks are currently too slow to avoid taking a hit from master, plus he'll be the only dude in your deck that avoids drown/anger. I currently run 4 heralds/2 master in the main, with two more in the side for decks that can't handle fliers. It's been working out really well. Don't give up on the deck just yet, I've had a lot of success with it.
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Oct 8, 2014 20:26
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The Wicked Wall posted:
What
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Oct 8, 2014 20:27
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The Wicked Wall posted:Feeling a little uneasy that the thread seems to be consigning monoblack to a cold grave after I traded unused fetches and other bits and pieces for an entire monoblack aggro deck, but at least I now have a fairly playable deck for society events and FNMs! 1) Courser is a huge stumbling block, honestly your best way of dealing with him is either Thoughtseize/Despise, Hero's Downfall or Mogis Marauder. The same as your answers for everything else really. Ideally your swarming around the opponents blockers with all your dorks, and you WILL have some of your dudes die, but thats fine because your interested in the damage. 2) 4, I'm a huge proponent of Thoughtseize as being your 4 of main but you want 4 disruption main. Honestly there are cards you simply cannot handle otherwise, and thoughtseize/despise lets you take care of them. So run some combination of Thoughtseize or Despise such that the total number equals 4. 3) I am not a big fan of Skullhunter, I prefer the increased damage, and the bestow of Spiteful Returned, but again, which ever one of these you go with, you want 4 to press your edge in that category. Insofar as Master of the Feast, I HATE the card, but I think its well positioned at the moment and is a must answer card, and with the exception of Hero's Downfall there isn't much instant speed removal for it to blow you out. I run 2 main and 1 board. So anyway, since I am blabbing about the deck so much, I may as well run out my build so here is what I am running: Creatures: 30 4 Tormented Hero 4 Gnarled Scarhide 4 Blood Soaked Champion 4 Pain Seer 4 Spiteful Returned 4 Mogis's Marauder 4 Herald of Torment 2 Master of the Feast Spells:8 4 Thoughtseize 4 Hero's Downfall Lands: 22 22 Swamp Sideboard: 2 Pharika's Cure 2 Erebos, God of the Dead 2 Whip of Erebos 2 Bile Blight 3 Despise 1 Master of the Feast 2 Hall of Triumph 1 Dark Betrayal
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Oct 8, 2014 20:30
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