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Mr Interweb posted:So...I'm guessing Jrode hasn't come back yet? $210,014 in BTC and counting at 1 BTC per 5 minutes without a response to my question. If anything this just proves that Jrod would die horribly in his paradise.
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Oct 8, 2014 03:21
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Vahakyla posted:A big chunk of DUI Checkpoints get the clearance from a judge with the requirement that they are given "due warning to avoid" or whatever the state calls it. It's my understanding that this is also what has kept the various reporting websites up and running.
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Oct 8, 2014 03:28
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I have another question for Jrod to not answer: How do you feel about the Weimar hyperinflation versus the Bruning policies in terms of damage to Weimar Germany? Also how do you feel that the deflationary and economically conservative Bruning policies were essentially enacted by what could be said to be autocratic measures in the Weimar government?
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Oct 8, 2014 03:29
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RuanGacho posted:$210,014 in BTC and counting at 1 BTC per 5 minutes without a response to my question. If anything this just proves that Jrod would die horribly in his paradise. Excuse me, but I am a representative from Jrod's DRO. He feels that this debt is absurd and a violation of his property rights. I am reaching out to get ahold of your DRO so that way we can come to a settlement. But before we begin, we need to agree upon a third DRO that will arbitrate for us in case of a dispute. Now obviously, I assume that you signed up with a fair and honest DRO, since you are a proper Libertarian citizen, and we all know that as a rational being, you would never sign up for a DRO like the Valhalla DRO who gives drugs to children so that they can raid the offices of other DROs. So, which DRO is representing you, kind sir?
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Oct 8, 2014 04:07
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Cemetry Gator posted:Excuse me, but I am a representative from Jrod's DRO. He feels that this debt is absurd and a violation of his property rights. I am reaching out to get ahold of your DRO so that way we can come to a settlement. I am represented by the Unrepentant Statists Army, a division of LAWCORP® Full rights to the debt owed by jrodefeld are on offer for his immediate capture and capitulation to sign a formal statement of his violation of contract. If your DRO would like to take on this contract at their expense, my DRO will facilitate the negotiations at their expense through their patented Infrastructure System®.
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Oct 8, 2014 04:11
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on the left posted:It's already established that if there is any danger to the community, your rights are essentially forefeit. If you've already gone that far, why not apply the same mentality to smaller and smaller dangers? I'm just going to quote VitalSigns here because he has already made the point better than I can. VitalSigns posted:I think the main issue is: do you object to balancing tests of public safety versus liberty in principle and think liberty should be absolute? Or do you agree that such tests are necessary for a functional society, but just disagree with the court in this particular case and think it erred too far on the side of public safety?
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Oct 8, 2014 04:15
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Sedan, does Valhalla DRO have strict rules regarding issuing of weaponry or do you have a "keep what you kill" policy for more seasoned karls?
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Oct 8, 2014 04:18
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RuanGacho posted:I am represented by the Unrepentant Statists Army, a division of LAWCORP® I'm sorry, my DRO does not agree to these terms. Would you agree to my third party DRO, Libertopia DRO. Basically, they'll claim that since you are in the same room as me and breathing the air that rightfully belongs to me that you are violating my property rights and that I may take out your lungs to regain my property. What? You put your CO2 into my air? Now, it looks like your DRO doesn't have a contract with the Libertopia DRO. However, the Libertopian DRO would be willing to represent your DRO to them for the purposes of this contract for a nominal fee. Do we have a deal?
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Oct 8, 2014 04:20
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Cemetry Gator posted:I'm sorry, my DRO does not agree to these terms. Would you agree to my third party DRO, Libertopia DRO. Basically, they'll claim that since you are in the same room as me and breathing the air that rightfully belongs to me that you are violating my property rights and that I may take out your lungs to regain my property. What? You put your CO2 into my air? We have a deal that will be negotiated in the next 6-8 weeks with proper paperwork filed as the U.S.A. has just declared your DRO an enemy of The State of Libertopia. As such, the determined cleansing that was scheduled for your airspace has already commenced and we expect to be back to standard relations in roughly 3 CEO cycles. Accordingly all other DRO's have been dissolved and their assets acclimated. Please file your uninsured citizen form yesterday so my DRO can properly consider your continued existence in your lawlessness.
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Oct 8, 2014 04:33
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Excuse me, but my DRO does not agree with being declared an enemy of the STATIST state of Libertopia, since our DRO does not recognize the existence of the State of Libertopia, nor do we recognize the meaning of the word declared. I'm afraid you going to have to talk to the Gator DRO to come to a agreement on both removing the word "an" from your contracts and restoring the recognition of my DRO. I also would like to submit a crayon drawing my child did that states that your DRO sucks. I am making this official part of your record. Ignore the backside where he drew a picture of the Valhalla DRO rising above the burning ashes of a man who resembles me with the title of Daddy. I guess he's been watching too many cartoons.
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Oct 8, 2014 04:58
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AstheWorldWorlds posted:Sedan, does Valhalla DRO have strict rules regarding issuing of weaponry or do you have a "keep what you kill" policy for more seasoned karls? Sedan and I joined LAWCORP DRO, which has a "ban all guns and donate them 50/50 to Sedan and DexM" arbitration clause in its contract.
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Oct 8, 2014 05:07
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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AstheWorldWorlds posted:Sedan, does Valhalla DRO have strict rules regarding issuing of weaponry or do you have a "keep what you kill" policy for more seasoned karls? Instead, I'll recruit slovenly, bewildered refugees from the ruins of Wal-Mart and induct them as helots into Leonidas DRO. They'll be given (well, assigned) land to farm, and learn a useful trade! In exchange...well, I'll let you read all 2800 pages of the contract yourself.
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Oct 8, 2014 06:03
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Remember, Liberty trumping Safety is an axiomatic rule, which is why our freedom of speech as outlined in the constitution provides us with the sanctified right to shout "Fire" in crowded theaters.
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Oct 8, 2014 06:09
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Voyager I posted:Remember, Liberty trumping Safety is an axiomatic rule, which is why our freedom of speech as outlined in the constitution provides us with the sanctified right to shout "Fire" in crowded theaters. I find this to be a bad thing to use as an example since the phrase comes from a trial that saw the espionage act used to punish a socialist organization for distributing anti-war pamphlets in the leadup to the first world war.
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Oct 8, 2014 06:32
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Yeah the Sedition Acts were in fact awful but the precedent still stands that, even operating under the general assumption that freedom is more valuable than safety does not mean that every compromise between the two is invalid. You can value freedom over safety and still support policies that go the other way if the rate of exchange is good enough and our society already does this on a massive scale.
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Oct 8, 2014 06:35
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AstheWorldWorlds posted:Sedan, does Valhalla DRO have strict rules regarding issuing of weaponry or do you have a "keep what you kill" policy for more seasoned karls? The only rule regarding weapon posession in Valhalla DRO is to keep your gun loaded and your blades sharp, after that it is pretty much do what you want.
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Oct 8, 2014 12:06
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SedanChair posted:Instead, I'll recruit slovenly, bewildered refugees from the ruins of Wal-Mart and induct them as helots into Leonidas DRO. They'll be given (well, assigned) land to farm, and learn a useful trade! In exchange...well, I'll let you read all 2800 pages of the contract yourself. Don't listen to this pretender. Valhalla DRO has a strict "Keep What You Kill™" system. For those who do not enter into Valhalla by presenting the severed head and weapon of a rival DRO officer, they will be issued one (1) M1911 pistol, two (2) fully loaded standard magazines, and one (1) aluminum bat. Valhalla DRO is nothing if not magnanimous in this regard.
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Oct 8, 2014 12:49
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Who What Now posted:Don't listen to this pretender. Valhalla DRO has a strict "Keep What You Kill™" system. For those who do not enter into Valhalla by presenting the severed head and weapon of a rival DRO officer, they will be issued one (1) M1911 pistol, two (2) fully loaded standard magazines, and one (1) aluminum bat. Valhalla DRO is nothing if not magnanimous in this regard. Aluminum, not Maple? This is bad comedy.
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Oct 8, 2014 12:54
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Uh, how are you going to carry all of that when you're running around naked and the only thing covering your body is a thick layer of other people's blood?
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Oct 8, 2014 13:13
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^^^^ Gun in one hand, bat in the other, spare magazine between the cheeks. Talmonis posted:Aluminum, not Maple? This is bad comedy. You want maple, then you gotta pony up the $goldbux$ my friend. Valhalla ain't no charity.
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Oct 8, 2014 13:14
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The most important item handed to each member of Valhalla DRO will be a human leather sack stuffed full of narcotics and steroids.Who What Now posted:^^^^ These are the kind of common sense solutions that will get you promoted to the logistics department. President Kucinich fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Oct 8, 2014 |
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Oct 8, 2014 13:15
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SedanChair posted:Instead, I'll recruit slovenly, bewildered refugees from the ruins of Wal-Mart and induct them as helots into Leonidas DRO. They'll be given (well, assigned) land to farm, and learn a useful trade! In exchange...well, I'll let you read all 2800 pages of the contract yourself. Since there will be child labor, widespread economic insecurity, and no public schools, it'll be interesting to see how people maintain the total information awareness necessary to survive in the future Libertopia. I'm guessing a lot of people are going to be signing an "X" on contracts they couldn't read even if they weren't written in impenetrable legalese.
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Oct 8, 2014 13:47
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spoon0042 posted:do seatbelts next, gently caress you No, he should do vaccines. You're never safe from polio, libs, stop trying to control my family with your security theater! Everyone line up for your morning injections: mood altering medicine to keep you docile is essential to public safety! Once liberals made kids get injected with MMR to go to school, there was no stopping the panopticon from injecting us with everything. O liberalism, what hast thou wrought?
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Oct 8, 2014 14:03
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You won't be able to spell your own name so how can you sign a contract?
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Oct 8, 2014 14:04
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EvanSchenck posted:I'm guessing a lot of people are going to be signing an "X" on contracts they couldn't read even if they weren't written in impenetrable legalese. No one would ever sign a contract without reading it people don't need your nannying to protect them. *lights a cigar, pours a snifter of brandy, settles down for another few hours of light evening reading of appliance warranty contracts and software EULA's* Got to be careful, sometimes these software companies like to slip in a clause signing you up for a few years of indentured servitude if you don't cancel your subscription after the 30-day free trial. A contract is a contract is a contract.
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Oct 8, 2014 15:30
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VitalSigns posted:No one would ever sign a contract without reading it people don't need your nannying to protect them. One problem is that anarchism is completely dependent on human nature but doesn't seem to realize it. If people don't read all their contracts they'll end up screwed. Will people read their contracts, vet the safety of their food and wisely chose a fair DRO? The system completely depends on it but libertarians don't seem to have done the analysis of history or human nature necesary to conclude that they will. It's toutalogocal - they should therefore they will. 401ks are great in theory because they let people contribute as much or little as they want, and put it in whatever they want. But it doesn't work this way, the reality is that people usually don't save enough and make boneheaded decisions with what they do invest. So it's bad as our primary retirement vehicle. It needs to be reiterated that it's obvious that an ideal society would have no government - an ideal society doesn't need government. But an ideal society only works with ideal people. We don't have those.
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Oct 8, 2014 17:08
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asdf32 posted:401ks are great in theory because they let people contribute as much or little as they want, There is a cap on 401k contributions. It's not even a percent so it doesn't grow with you. Flat 17k or thereabouts.
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Oct 8, 2014 17:20
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McAlister posted:There is a cap on 401k contributions. It's not even a percent so it doesn't grow with you. Flat 17k or thereabouts. It's more than what 99% of people are contributing. Except perhaps 58 year olds who just realized they are screwed and are frantically maxing it out.
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Oct 8, 2014 17:46
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401k plans are also a textbook perfect example illustrating that humans do not follow rational decision theory.quote:Ann Combs was a U.S. Assistant Secretary of Labor when questions started proliferating from companies about how to get more of their employees to participate in 401(k) plans. “There is a theory in economic behavioral theory that people tend toward inertia,” says Combs. “Whether they are intimidated by something new like a 401(k) or don’t feel smart enough to use it or whatever, [the plans] were not as popular as they should have been.” If people really were the rational, utility-maximizing actors assumed by praxeology to draw the conclusion that maximizing personal liberty maximizes utility, then there would be no difference at all in 401k enrollment rates between opt-in and opt-out plans. Employees would put in the time and effort to research the benefits and drawbacks of a 401k and it wouldn't matter whether the box they are checking is marked "opt-in" or "opt-out". Yet it does. Massively. How many Libertarians read every word of an EULA before running the software, or every clause in a website's TOS before registering, or every single update to their credit card agreement that comes in the mail; and how many depend on the framework of contract and commerical law developed by the state to deal with problems that have cropped up over the centuries whenever we find another instance that pure caveat emptor invariably leads to bad poo poo? The funniest part about Libertarians is that though each of them believes they'd be a brave captain of industry if the untermensch weren't using the State to hold them down and blunt the wiliness that would make the Libertarian rich if only it were unfettered, but in reality their ignorance of contract law make them the most credulous and easily-scammed people on the planet and it's only the State that keeps them from being taken for everything they're worth. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Oct 8, 2014 |
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Oct 8, 2014 17:57
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Case in pointquote:“A con of this magnitude could only have existed in the libertarian community because [Johnson] used their paranoia and distrust of the government to say, ‘Put everything in a trust, I won’t tell anybody who you are, don’t let anyone find out you’re investing, and I prefer you use precious metal or Bitcoins so it can’t be traced,’” Kirley said. “It really worked out well, whether it was intentional or just the perfect storm.” 
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Oct 8, 2014 18:06
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asdf32 posted:
Its not to me, it sounds like libertarian kool-aid. This is like saying an ideal breakfast would have no food. It just so happens that is exactly what most people would have for breakfast in libertopia. Libertarianism is a bankrupt philosophy that only exists because of people too stupid to realize that their ability to conceive of it is a function of their statist privileges. An ideal society with no goverment isnt a society, its a bunch of brains in jars who cant interact with anything other than simulations. Just like libertarianism. Do we see the theme yet?
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Oct 8, 2014 18:19
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RuanGacho posted:Its not to me, it sounds like libertarian kool-aid. This is like saying an ideal breakfast would have no food. It just so happens that is exactly what most people would have for breakfast in libertopia. No, government isn't society it's the executive arm of society. Libertarians are correct that government is coercive, but that's the point. Government forces or encourages people to do things that are in the collective best interests of everyone else. If people just did those things on their own you'd have society with no government. That's clearly an ideal, just utterly unrealistic. asdf32 fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Oct 8, 2014 |
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Oct 8, 2014 18:44
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asdf32 posted:No, government isn't society it's the executive arm of society. Libertarians are correct that government is coercive, but that's the point. Government forces or encourages people to do things that are in the collective best interests of everyone else. If people just did those things on their own you'd have society with no government. That's clearly an ideal, just utterly unrealistic. I just said that such things are only expressible through "statist"  concepts and you immediately reply with "Well government isn't [thing] it's executive [thing]."Government isn't coercive inherently if you actually participate in it instead of externalizing it as some sort of out group designed to limit your True Potential. Government doesn't FORCE people to do anything outside of preventing their unlimited expression to obliterate society around them. You're really trying to take the whole thread back to "libertarians have some valid points guys!" No, they have none. There is nothing redeemable about their ideas outside of some sort of bullshit concept of individual sovereignty that makes them a greater menace to the future of society than the average war hawk or environmental nut. Libertarianism is political nihilism: There is no cure for government but annihilation of it. There is no freedom but my own to act as I see fit. Service is a crime and acknowledgement of rights outside of my own are aggression against my sphere of comfort. Humans don't exist without other humans, there is no society without government because even apes have hierarchy and we're not going to evolve to some point of higher awareness where no one fights or disputes anything ever. Especially with libertarian philosophy making technological advance impossible.
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Oct 8, 2014 19:13
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RuanGacho posted:Government doesn't FORCE people to do anything outside of preventing their unlimited expression to obliterate society around them. Interesting hypothesis. Care to test it by, say, lighting a joint in front of a police station? Or how about crossing an invisible line through the Rio Grande?
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Oct 8, 2014 19:23
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When do we invent Minds and become the Culture? I want that society.
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Oct 8, 2014 19:31
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asdf32 posted:Government forces or encourages people to do things that are in the collective best interests of everyone else. If people just did those things on their own you'd have society with no government. That's clearly an ideal, just utterly unrealistic. Even perfectly rational malice-free utilitarian people are still going to have disputes and disagreements based on miscommunication or lack of information if nothing else. The only way you can have a society without some agreed-upon authority for resolving disputes between parties whose disagreement can't be worked out between them (ie a government) is if you redefine ideal humans completely out of the realm of humanity into some kind of omniscient beings or at least a hivemind. I sell a product and it injures a customer. I refuse liability because they weren't using it according to the directions, but the customer counters that it was unsafe and it was negligent of me not to anticipate that someone might do that and design it to be safe in those circumstances. Who is right in this particular instance. It's obvious that a manufacturer has some duty to ensure safety even under adverse circumstances (a 120V hair dryer should not explode if someone mistakenly plugs it into a 220V outlet, for example) but it's also obvious that it's impossible to make anything completely foolproof. It's impossible for everyone to sit down and hash out every possible fact pattern in advance, and reasonable people can disagree on where the line falls in any given situation. People have to act on imperfect information. There's always going to be the need for some authority to have the final say in a disagreement. You could play word games and define this away as not being a government because ideal people would never refuse to follow its judgments even if they privately disagree (although this too is questionable, because what if one of the parties believed that defying the judgment was best for society), so therefore it's not a state because it never has to resort to force to carry out its judgments...but that's just question-begging: it reduces to "in a world where coercion is never necessary, coercion would never be necessary."
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Oct 8, 2014 19:35
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RuanGacho posted:I just said that such things are only expressible through "statist" does government change behavior? How does it do it?
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Oct 8, 2014 19:38
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Oh for fucks sake. If you exist you coerce.
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Oct 8, 2014 19:59
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You can prove anything about an ideal society if you allow someone to define the argument with a sufficiently arbitrary definition of what makes an ideal human.asdf32 posted:Libertarians are correct that government is coercive, but that's the point. Government forces or encourages people to do things that are in the collective best interests of everyone else. If people just did those things on their own you'd have society with no government. That's clearly an ideal, just utterly unrealistic. "Religious conservatives are correct that contraceptives and sex education insulate people from the consequences of fornication, but that's the point. If people followed God's Word on their own, you'd have a society free from STD's and unwanted children with no contraception or sex ed. That's clearly an ideal, just utterly unrealistic." Yeah okay, if you define ideal human as being-who-needs-no-government then yeah you'll find a society of ideal humans needs no government. But that's not any more interesting than any other religious claim about ideal humans and ideal societies. Who cares? Every lovely idea that fails in the real world could be re-defined as a sadly unrealistic attempt to live up to an imaginary ideal world where it's not a lovely idea, but that's not very interesting or useful. Bad ideas aren't idealistic. They're just bad ideas. Calling a lovely idea idealistic just moves the shittiness one step backward into lovely ideals. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Oct 8, 2014 |
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Oct 8, 2014 20:01
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BrandorKP posted:Oh for fucks sake. If you exist you coerce. This is really all need be said on the subject. Trying to take government out of existence is trying to pretend life exists in amber. Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:Interesting hypothesis. Care to test it by, say, lighting a joint in front of a police station? Or how about crossing an invisible line through the Rio Grande? If I did this today, my building sharing space with the police station no one would care, except to ask if I was taking a personal day. Sorry you're part of the country is a regressive shithole. RuanGacho fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Oct 8, 2014 |
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Oct 8, 2014 20:02
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