Eastern Europe: Poland rip in pis

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Eastern Europe: Poland rip in pis

Mightypeon: Oct 10, 2013; Putin apologist- assume all uncited claims are from Russia Today or directly from FSB.

key phrases: Poor plucky little Russia, Spheres of influence, The West is Worse, they was asking for it.

Discendo Vox posted:

That's, um, a significant understatement of the international response, and an overstatement of Russia's scope of available activity in the area.

That is possibly the first time we agree on something itt.

# ? Oct 8, 2014 20:31

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 20:55

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; This does not make sense when, again, aggregate indicia also indicate improvements. The belief that things are worse is false. It remains false.

My apologies for my post, Dolash- in light of recent developments and all available information, you were right.

# ? Oct 8, 2014 20:33

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Regarde Aduck posted:

Russia has Germany by the balls, or worse, Germany is complicit. Either way the EU is going to languish under their rule.

Granted, German economic policy is probably going to rip apart Europe first rather than its foreign policy, which admittedly isn't great either.

It looks like Europe is heading for a third recession since 2009.

# ? Oct 8, 2014 20:35

Mightypeon: Oct 10, 2013; Putin apologist- assume all uncited claims are from Russia Today or directly from FSB.

key phrases: Poor plucky little Russia, Spheres of influence, The West is Worse, they was asking for it.

There is actually a line of thought that the initial hilariously crappy EU association offer by the EU was made at Germanies instance, and was basically a "here, we make you an offer you have to be utterly braindead to even consider signing, so you wont, while we pretend that we eventually want Ukraine in the EU, everyone is happy right?".
Then Yanuk came in and pretended to still sign it (in order to bluff Putin into giving Yanukovych a better deal) Putin didnt buy the bluff and stuff somewhat escalated from there, while Poland/Lithuania and the US saw the whole thing as a "lets troll Russia" opportunity of the very highest Level.

Germany meanwhile couldnt disagree with "getting" Ukraine without offering Ukraine or Russia any meaningfull concessions, so it got compelled to play along.

If People wouldnt be dead, and if this still couldnt cause World War 3, it would be kind of hilarious. But then, the mutual leadership ineptness on the dawn of WW1 didnt look that much different.

# ? Oct 8, 2014 20:40

Mightypeon: Oct 10, 2013; Putin apologist- assume all uncited claims are from Russia Today or directly from FSB.

key phrases: Poor plucky little Russia, Spheres of influence, The West is Worse, they was asking for it.

Ardennes posted:

Granted, German economic policy is probably going to rip apart Europe first rather than its foreign policy, which admittedly isn't great either.

It looks like Europe is heading for a third recession since 2009.

I would agree here. Germany has considerable control over its (and its neighbours) economic policy, its foreign policy is pretty largely reactive, and Washingtons writ is considerable.

# ? Oct 8, 2014 20:42

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

Germany too must be split into various states upon the defeat of Putin's regime. A United Germany was a threat to Margaret Thatcher and we must heed her warning.

# ? Oct 8, 2014 20:42

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

Lukashenko says the darndest things.

http://tvi.ua/new/2014/10/08/lukashenko_zayavyv_scho_rosiya_povynna_povernuty_mayzhe_vsyu_terytoriyu_kazakhstanu_ta_monholiyi

Batka posted:

"Russia should return almost their entire territory to Kazakhstan and Mongolia"

Russia should return almost their entire territory of Kazakhstan and Mongolia.

This statement was made by President of Belarus Alexander Lukashenko.

He says that the land belonged to the two countries even in times of Batu Khan. So now we must return its historical owners. According to Lukashenko, these findings suggest, if you follow the logic on the Russian annexation of the Crimea.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 00:13

Franks Happy Place: Mar 15, 2011; It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the dank of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion.

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

Lukashenko says the darndest things.

http://tvi.ua/new/2014/10/08/lukashenko_zayavyv_scho_rosiya_povynna_povernuty_mayzhe_vsyu_terytoriyu_kazakhstanu_ta_monholiyi

Incoming polonium chocolates.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 00:22

Berke Negri: Feb 15, 2012; Les Ricains tuent et moi je mue
Mao Mao
Les fous sont rois et moi je bois
Mao Mao
Les bombes tonnent et moi je sonne
Mao Mao
Les bebes fuient et moi je fuis
Mao Mao

Mightypeon posted:

There is actually a line of thought that the initial hilariously crappy EU association offer by the EU was made at Germanies instance, and was basically a "here, we make you an offer you have to be utterly braindead to even consider signing, so you wont, while we pretend that we eventually want Ukraine in the EU, everyone is happy right?".
Then Yanuk came in and pretended to still sign it (in order to bluff Putin into giving Yanukovych a better deal) Putin didnt buy the bluff and stuff somewhat escalated from there, while Poland/Lithuania and the US saw the whole thing as a "lets troll Russia" opportunity of the very highest Level.

Germany meanwhile couldnt disagree with "getting" Ukraine without offering Ukraine or Russia any meaningfull concessions, so it got compelled to play along.

If People wouldnt be dead, and if this still couldnt cause World War 3, it would be kind of hilarious. But then, the mutual leadership ineptness on the dawn of WW1 didnt look that much different.

This makes sense to me as the initial case by the EU always seemed incredibly muted to me. When talks broke down last winter the first time the EU negotiators were out of town with a big 'of shrug and "gee, we tried."

# ? Oct 9, 2014 01:39

Cuntpunch: Oct 3, 2003; A monkey in a long line of kings

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

Lukashenko says the darndest things.

http://tvi.ua/new/2014/10/08/lukashenko_zayavyv_scho_rosiya_povynna_povernuty_mayzhe_vsyu_terytoriyu_kazakhstanu_ta_monholiyi

Can anyone explain what Lukashenko is playing at with this? Why is he trolling Russia?

# ? Oct 9, 2014 02:19

Baloogan: Dec 5, 2004; Fun Shoe

Yeah, I don't understand what is going on there.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 02:20

StandardVC10: Feb 6, 2007; This avatar now 50% more dark mode compliant

Cuntpunch posted:

Can anyone explain what Lukashenko is playing at with this? Why is he trolling Russia?

For a second I thought he might be mocking anyone who thinks Russia should give Crimea back.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 02:29

Phobophilia: Apr 26, 2008; by Hand Knit

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

A portrait of Vytautas painted on the side of a building in Grodno, Belarus.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 06:39

VoltairePunk: Dec 26, 2012; I have become Umlaut, destroyer of words

Cuntpunch posted:

Can anyone explain what Lukashenko is playing at with this? Why is he trolling Russia?

That's his game. He has been doing this for the whole time he has been in power. He plays nicely and receives some political capital from the west (lifts of some of the political sanctions that are set up) and he then almost immediately plays nicely with Russia where he again gains capital and gets some discounts from them. Lukashenko's whole foreign policy is to try to keep jumping between east and west, while trying not to fall into a giant hole between those and try to keep aligned more to the east.

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

There has been a weird series of attempts to search for their own history in Belarus. They had only achieved independence for a brief time in the early 20th century and then in the late 20th century up until now. There is no uniting history content so they are searching for those.
However, for the last few years, they have been trying to get to prove that they were the main body of the Grand Dutchy of Lithuania, which to me is very funny personally, as it is to most of historians in Lithuania and Poland. This could very well be an attempt to both prove that Belarus has the "right to exist" (a statement for Russia) or is a very interesting operation to create tension between Belarus and Lithuania based on "historical territorial disputes". This is more a question for a discussion rather than a statement as I could be wrong.

And for those who don't know - Vytautas actually isn't a ruler of Belarus. Never was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vytautas

# ? Oct 9, 2014 08:33

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

Karmalis posted:

That's his game. He has been doing this for the whole time he has been in power. He plays nicely and receives some political capital from the west (lifts of some of the political sanctions that are set up) and he then almost immediately plays nicely with Russia where he again gains capital and gets some discounts from them. Lukashenko's whole foreign policy is to try to keep jumping between east and west, while trying not to fall into a giant hole between those and try to keep aligned more to the east.

There was an article written shortly after the 2010 election about how Lukashenko was a master at flirting with west and east like a teenage girl trying to get the attention of both for his own benefit.

quote:

There has been a weird series of attempts to search for their own history in Belarus. They had only achieved independence for a brief time in the early 20th century and then in the late 20th century up until now. There is no uniting history content so they are searching for those.
However, for the last few years, they have been trying to get to prove that they were the main body of the Grand Dutchy of Lithuania, which to me is very funny personally, as it is to most of historians in Lithuania and Poland. This could very well be an attempt to both prove that Belarus has the "right to exist" (a statement for Russia) or is a very interesting operation to create tension between Belarus and Lithuania based on "historical territorial disputes". This is more a question for a discussion rather than a statement as I could be wrong.

And for those who don't know - Vytautas actually isn't a ruler of Belarus. Never was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vytautas

A good part of the territory of Belarus was in the Grand Duchy however, and that article even states Vytautas was the Prince of Grodno. I'm curious, do modern Lithuanians consider Belarus not to be an ancestral part of the Grand Duchy? Norman Davies seems to say otherwise. In his book, Vanished Kingdoms the section on the Grand Duchy of Lithuania begins with a picture of Lukashenko.

Another argument Belarusians use is that the Grand Duchy's records were kept in the old Ruthenian language.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXlagbg9qkM

History of Belarus in five minutes.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 11:03

TeodorMorozov: May 27, 2013

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

Russian military ID found in Novodair.

This is coat of arms of Russian Armed forces

Can you now look back on your "ID" and tell me, do you feel something wrong with it?

# ? Oct 9, 2014 11:13

SirTagz: Feb 25, 2014

Estonia just narrowly passed law which basically legalizes same-sex marriage (different name, more-or-less same legal standing). I think it is the first ex-soviet country to do so.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 11:14

kapsas: May 18, 2009

SirTagz posted:

Estonia just narrowly passed law which basically legalizes same-sex marriage (different name, more-or-less same legal standing). I think it is the first ex-soviet country to do so.

Actually this is only the first step, for same-sex unions to become official in the eyes of the state some other laws have to pass. Todays vote was a success but a very narrow one (40:38), next votes need a minimum of 51 yes votes. In the meantime homophobic campaigning is gearing up... Also parliamentary elections are not far off (march 2015), so not so fun times ahead.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 11:21

VoltairePunk: Dec 26, 2012; I have become Umlaut, destroyer of words

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

There was an article written shortly after the 2010 election about how Lukashenko was a master at flirting with west and east like a teenage girl trying to get the attention of both for his own benefit.

A good part of the territory of Belarus was in the Grand Duchy however, and that article even states Vytautas was the Prince of Grodno. I'm curious, do modern Lithuanians consider Belarus not to be an ancestral part of the Grand Duchy? Norman Davies seems to say otherwise. In his book, Vanished Kingdoms the section on the Grand Duchy of Lithuania begins with a picture of Lukashenko.

Another argument Belarusians use is that the Grand Duchy's records were kept in the old Ruthenian language.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXlagbg9qkM

History of Belarus in five minutes.

Modern Lithuanians don't see Belarus as an ancestral part of the Grand Dutchy. Why? Because it is not true. Norman Davies and the fact of the records kept in Ruthenian language are the ONLY things that they hang on.
Regarding the language - that is not the only language records were kept in. It was also Latin and Polish. Reason being that at that time Grand Duchy of Lithuania had no alphabet and no writing. There was simply no way of keeping records. An actual first book in Lithuanian appeared only in 1547.
That video is also a part of the general attempt to conscript foreign history to one's means.

Belarusians trying to grasp ownership as the main part of Grand Duchy of Lithuania is no different than modern citizens of Macedonia trying to set themselves up as modern descendants of Alexander the Great's empire.

However, modern nations are pretty different from the nations of the middle ages. During 19th century the area that had a specific culture, similar language, same customs was designated as the nation of Lithuania. That area resembles modern terittory of Lithuania pretty closely. Belarus was not a part, is not and will never be a part of that area.

It's almost the same if modern western Ukrainian's would say that Vytautas was definitely one of their greatest rulers as he had conquered those lands and held them for quite a while.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 11:27

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

So then this map of the Grand Duchy is wrong?

# ? Oct 9, 2014 12:03

VoltairePunk: Dec 26, 2012; I have become Umlaut, destroyer of words

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

So then this map of the Grand Duchy is wrong?

Of course not. It was surely a part, but not a constant integral part of the dutchy. Those lands were annexed, inherited and conquered. Event the capital was Kernave at first and then Vilnius.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 14:00

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Also, there is the issue that control was far from firm or absolutely especially along the southern and eastern borders.

When we see a map of that period we assume we are seeing the borders of a nation-state that can enforce some type of border, which is completely not the case.

It is actually pretty well documented that the Crimean Tatars were raiding across most of what is now Western and Central Ukraine. You can "claim" it as Lithuanian but in reality it was very chaotic.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 14:31

OhYeah: Jan 20, 2007; 1. Currently the most prevalent form of decision-making in the western world

2. While you are correct in saying that the society owns

3. You have not for a second demonstrated here why

4. I love the way that you equate "state" with "bureaucracy". Is that how you really feel about the state

SirTagz posted:

Estonia just narrowly passed law which basically legalizes same-sex marriage (different name, more-or-less same legal standing). I think it is the first ex-soviet country to do so.

The level of homophobic fear-mongering is pretty staggering, I must admit. It's not like we're short of real issues to worry about : climate warming, impending fossil fuel crisis, rise of inequality globally, imperialistic and aggressive neighbor. Not to mention local issues: rampant alcoholism, the number of people that have fled the country in search of better jobs, the number of people (including children) who suffer from malnutrition. But no, gays having dirty homo sex is the most important issue in the world and let it completely divide our country, why not?

There is some good news. Estonian Army is getting 55 million dollars worth of Javelin anti-tank missile systems. The first batch is due to arrive this year already.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 15:30

Pyromancer: Apr 29, 2011; This man must look upon the fire, smell of it, warm his hands by it, stare into its heart

OhYeah posted:

The level of homophobic fear-mongering is pretty staggering, I must admit. It's not like we're short of real issues to worry about : climate warming, impending fossil fuel crisis, rise of inequality globally, imperialistic and aggressive neighbor. Not to mention local issues: rampant alcoholism, the number of people that have fled the country in search of better jobs, the number of people (including children) who suffer from malnutrition. But no, gays having dirty homo sex is the most important issue in the world and let it completely divide our country, why not?

I agree, those gays always push their same-sex marriage agenda in front of actually important issues.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 15:59

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

So besides Savchenko, there is another high-profile political prisoner Russia is holding: Ukrainian Crimean director Sentsov. Previously his treatment included things like Russia summarily deciding to treat him as a Russian citizen, despite him having no desire to relinquish his Ukrainian citizenship. Yesterday, Russia's investigative committee responded to his complaints that he was badly beaten and abused by their "investigators" to elicit a false confessions by... stating that they found objects related to S&M in his apartment, and that therefore these wounds may have come from his partner or partners.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 16:04

SirTagz: Feb 25, 2014

OddObserver posted:

So besides Savchenko, there is another high-profile political prisoner Russia is holding: Ukrainian Crimean director Sentsov. Previously his treatment included things like Russia summarily deciding to treat him as a Russian citizen, despite him having no desire to relinquish his Ukrainian citizenship. Yesterday, Russia's investigative committee responded to his complaints that he was badly beaten and abused by their "investigators" to elicit a false confessions by... stating that they found objects related to S&M in his apartment, and that therefore these wounds may have come from his partner or partners.

Smooth. An excuse and public hysteric hatred with one sentence.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 16:07

Finlander: Feb 21, 2011

Pyromancer posted:

I agree, those gays always push their same-sex marriage agenda in front of actually important issues.

Are you being serious about being a homophobic piece of poo poo, or are you just being ironic here?
I know you approve of terrorists trying to gun down unarmed protesters and hate it when they fight back, so I gotta be extra sure with you.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 16:28

Lovely Joe Stalin: Jun 12, 2007; Our Lovely Wang

TeodorMorozov posted:

This is coat of arms of Russian Armed forces

Can you now look back on your "ID" and tell me, do you feel something wrong with it?

Ooh, ooh! Is it that it is not in the pocket of a RF conscript being buggered by his pimp-officer?

# ? Oct 9, 2014 17:09

jonnypeh: Nov 5, 2006

TeodorMorozov posted:

Can you now look back on your "ID" and tell me, do you feel something wrong with it?

I swear it says armed forces of russian federation.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 17:12

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

Vice made a documentary on the Donetsk People's Republic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woD44CsR4jg

# ? Oct 9, 2014 17:34

Tevery Best: Oct 11, 2013; Hewlo Furriend

jonnypeh posted:

I swear it says armed forces of russian federation.

Yeah, but your post says that too. I agree that it might be fake, but I have no idea if the Armed Forces logo would be on that, or would it rather be the state emblem. All things considered, this doesn't change much, from other evidence I have no doubt that there are Russian regulars in Ukraine.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 17:41

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Tevery Best posted:

Yeah, but your post says that too. I agree that it might be fake, but I have no idea if the Armed Forces logo would be on that, or would it rather be the state emblem. All things considered, this doesn't change much, from other evidence I have no doubt that there are Russian regulars in Ukraine.

Officer IDs have this insignia and a bit different text. While I have no idea how non-officer IDs look like, I am sceptical towards that being a legitimate ID.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 18:04

Mc Do Well: Aug 2, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

Vice made a documentary on the Donetsk People's Republic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woD44CsR4jg

I get the impression from this that a lot of the groundswell support for secession in East Ukraine came from Older women and Afghan vets.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 18:05

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

kalstrams posted:

Officer IDs have this insignia and a bit different text. While I have no idea how non-officer IDs look like, I am sceptical towards that being a legitimate ID.

Some people claimed it might be from early 90s?

# ? Oct 9, 2014 18:06

Valiantman: Jun 25, 2011; Ways to circumvent the Compact #6: Find a dreaming god and affect his dreams so that they become reality. Hey, it's not like it's you who's affecting the world. Blame the other guy for irresponsibly falling asleep.

TeodorMorozov posted:

This is coat of arms of Russian Armed forces

Can you now look back on your "ID" and tell me, do you feel something wrong with it?

If you GIS the Russian military passport, you get results that are pretty much halfway between that and the image posted earlier. Fast browsing doesn't give anything nearly as simplified as the claimed military ID but on the other hand the passport double eagles have elements, especially on the chest and in the overall posture, that have been simplified from the actual coat of arms in the exact same way.

So, inconclusive. :shrug:

# ? Oct 9, 2014 18:07

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

OddObserver posted:

Some people claimed it might be from early 90s?

Might be, I have no idea in history of design of insignia of armed forces of Russian Federation.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 18:07

Mc Do Well: Aug 2, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

The question must be asked: is the global rise of terrorism a haphazard response to a decimated economy or is there a pattern? Does UNATCO face coordinated ideological opposition?

Some groups -- Silhouette in France, for instance�have declared a "Meme War," or "war of meanings" in their terminology. They spread email and pamphlets that lampoon the U.N.'s proposal for a one-world democracy, a tedious exercise in rudimentary propaganda. With sophistries and doublespeak, they portray "freedom" as "obedience," "democracy" as "tyranny," and UNATCO as the perpetrator of terrorism�an idea as shocking as it is reprehensible.

Other organizations, such as the self-proclaimed revolutionary National Secessionist Forces (NSF) in the U.S., claim allegiance to the Meme War, but are in fact no better than common criminals. They desire territory and wealth at the expense of society at large. Their "civil war" is merely a smokescreen for criminal activity.

Any population can be quickly turned against such "revolutionaries" simply by educating them about the U.N.'s policies and goals.

-- Joseph Manderley, Director, UNATCO

# ? Oct 9, 2014 20:06

TasogareNoKagi: Jul 11, 2013

McDowell posted:

The question must be asked: is the global rise of terrorism a haphazard response to a decimated economy or is there a pattern? Does UNATCO face coordinated ideological opposition?

Some groups -- Silhouette in France, for instance�have declared a "Meme War," or "war of meanings" in their terminology. They spread email and pamphlets that lampoon the U.N.'s proposal for a one-world democracy, a tedious exercise in rudimentary propaganda. With sophistries and doublespeak, they portray "freedom" as "obedience," "democracy" as "tyranny," and UNATCO as the perpetrator of terrorism�an idea as shocking as it is reprehensible.

Other organizations, such as the self-proclaimed revolutionary National Secessionist Forces (NSF) in the U.S., claim allegiance to the Meme War, but are in fact no better than common criminals. They desire territory and wealth at the expense of society at large. Their "civil war" is merely a smokescreen for criminal activity.

Any population can be quickly turned against such "revolutionaries" simply by educating them about the U.N.'s policies and goals.

-- Joseph Manderley, Director, UNATCO

We didn't ask for this.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 20:48

Sergiu64: May 21, 2014

Fun stuff in Belarus vs Ukraine Euro qualifier today. Apparently both sides of fans were signing "F*** Putin" for most of the game, then the Ukrainian fans would sing "Belarus Lives" while the Belorussian fans would sing "Glory to Ukraine".

# ? Oct 9, 2014 21:55

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 20:55

OhYeah: Jan 20, 2007; 1. Currently the most prevalent form of decision-making in the western world

2. While you are correct in saying that the society owns

3. You have not for a second demonstrated here why

4. I love the way that you equate "state" with "bureaucracy". Is that how you really feel about the state

Sergiu64 posted:

Fun stuff in Belarus vs Ukraine Euro qualifier today. Apparently both sides of fans were signing "F*** Putin" for most of the game, then the Ukrainian fans would sing "Belarus Lives" while the Belorussian fans would sing "Glory to Ukraine".

If this is true, it's the most glorious thing I've heard all week.

# ? Oct 9, 2014 22:06

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