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MickeyFinn posted:Why is it always doctors who say dumb poo poo like this? Maybe doctors become politicians more than other science types? If you think of "rich privileged rear end in a top hat" who do you think of after Wall Street executives?
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Oct 10, 2014 16:07
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Doctors and engineers tend not to experience the "reality says gently caress you to all your grand theories" part of science quite so much, so they tend to arrogance. You can also see it in older scientists who haven't done practical experiments in far too long, and theorists who are careful never to go near anything actually testable.
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Oct 10, 2014 16:08
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"Well, I don't see any peer-reviewed science in this room that proves climate change is being aided and abetted by man, therefore it's not true, checkmate, stupid libs!"
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Oct 10, 2014 16:09
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Shageletic posted:Finally, an expert weighs in on climate change Boy, I can't wait to see the email forwards about how a REAL SCIENTIST who knows exactly gently caress-all about anything to do with weather or climate DOESN'T BELIEVE IN GLOBAL WARMING!!!!!
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Oct 10, 2014 16:10
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computer parts posted:If you think of "rich privileged rear end in a top hat" who do you think of after Wall Street executives? Biglaw partners. Big accounting partners. Executive producers. TV actors. Professional athletes. Celebrity dentists. Plastic surgeons. E: Alternatively, professionals and scientists.
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Oct 10, 2014 16:11
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MickeyFinn posted:Why is it always doctors who say dumb poo poo like this? Maybe doctors become politicians more than other science types? IANAD but it seems to me that medical education has a laser focus on its discipline and the med student doesn't have to pay any attention to anything outside of it to still excel in their studies and profession. The problem is that people somehow have this presumption that a person who is a doctor, even an excellent doctor, is somehow automatically smarter and more knowledgeable about things outside of medicine.
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Oct 10, 2014 16:11
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zoux posted:I think their crushing student loans turn them into republicans. Dentists are actually coming out of school with bigger loans than doctors now. Doctors just seem to be extra whiny about everything. I could never figure out how one of my Dr's could bill $100 for 15 minutes and then have the tenacity to bitch about how unfair the system was to him. What is that, $3000 a day?
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Oct 10, 2014 16:13
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Experts aren't experts outside their field. It's not something unique to doctors or engineers, and it wouldn't surprise me if a bunch of climate scientists have some pretty stupid ideas about medicine.
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Oct 10, 2014 16:19
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Experts aren't experts outside their field. It's not something unique to doctors or engineers, and it wouldn't surprise me if a bunch of climate scientists have some pretty stupid ideas about medicine. But the issue here is that there are experts who understand this, and experts who do not, and anecdotal evidence says doctors are more prone to this than others. Although I'd put lawyers up there too. I like the theory that these are people whose fields don't allow them the experience of "haha you're completely wrong" from empirical study or some other similar process of falsification and discovering the limits of knowledge.
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Oct 10, 2014 16:23
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computer parts posted:If you think of "rich privileged rear end in a top hat" who do you think of after Wall Street executives? Plastic surgeons. Corporate executives of any stripe. Corporate lawyers. Landlords. Any 20-40 year old aggressive white male in a suit with a Bluetooth.
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Oct 10, 2014 16:24
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420DD Butts posted:Using his criteria, anyone holding a BA/BS in the sciences is a scientist. Eh, I'd be on board calling most MDs proper scientists, but that doesn't mean much.
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Oct 10, 2014 16:26
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edit: read that wholly wrong, I thought you were saying they compressed student loans like coal into diamonds and ended up with Republicans.
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Oct 10, 2014 16:26
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Experts aren't experts outside their field. It's not something unique to doctors or engineers, and it wouldn't surprise me if a bunch of climate scientists have some pretty stupid ideas about medicine. It's hard to switch off. If you spend all day telling people: "there is the right way to do X and you are objectively wrong to do it the way you have done it (please see attached evidence and reference document or regulatory citations)" that attitude sticks for at least a couple of hours and that's if you're self aware of it and actively trying not to do it.
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Oct 10, 2014 16:29
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420DD Butts posted:Using his criteria, anyone holding a BA/BS in the sciences is a scientist. Reminds me of the joke, "A data scientist is a statistician with a MacBook"
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Oct 10, 2014 16:32
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Antti posted:IANAD but it seems to me that medical education has a laser focus on its discipline and the med student doesn't have to pay any attention to anything outside of it to still excel in their studies and profession. This exactly. Doctors are weird folk who live a pretty cloistered life while in Med school. They know their poo poo when it comes to their field but become lost on issued outside their specific specialty. I've heard no end of praise for guys like Dr Oz or Ben Carson from former patients and colleagues, but I don't have to tell anyone here about what dumb poo poo they spew.
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Oct 10, 2014 16:37
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ReidRansom posted:Eh, I'd be on board calling most MDs proper scientists, but that doesn't mean much. Believe me, as someone who grew up around MDs, very few of them are doing anything that could be reasonably called "science" Medical researchers are scientists. Your average surgeon is as much a scientist as an electrician.
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Oct 10, 2014 16:40
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Edmund Lava posted:This exactly. Doctors are weird folk who live a pretty cloistered life while in Med school. They know their poo poo when it comes to their field but become lost on issued outside their specific specialty. I've heard no end of praise for guys like Dr Oz or Ben Carson from former patients and colleagues, but I don't have to tell anyone here about what dumb poo poo they spew. But it doesn't stop in medical school. They have 4 years of medical school which takes up an inordinate amount of time, then they have years of residency where they spend literally every waking hour in their hospital. If they become a specialist their fellowship isn't going to be much better. Then, if they finally become an attending after 12 years and are a specialist like a surgeon they spend much of their time on call sitting in the hospital anyways, though now the room they're waiting in is much snazzier and they're getting paid a ton to do it. Doctors have weird opinions about the outside world because they cannot experience it until their late 30s or early 40s if they wanted to.
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Oct 10, 2014 16:42
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Talmonis posted:Plastic surgeons. Corporate executives of any stripe. Corporate lawyers. Landlords. Any 20-40 year old aggressive white male in a suit with a Bluetooth. Are you playing the liberal version of me?
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Oct 10, 2014 16:44
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Pohl posted:Dentists are actually coming out of school with bigger loans than doctors now. Doctors just seem to be extra whiny about everything. Billed hours are not the same as what they're paid. I know my firm bills about 300 an hour for my time but I'm certainly not making 3k a day. (Not saying doctors are underpaid)
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Oct 10, 2014 16:50
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Good Citizen posted:Billed hours are not the same as what they're paid. I know my firm bills about 300 an hour for my time but I'm certainly not making 3k a day. Residents certainly are.
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Oct 10, 2014 16:51
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Good Citizen posted:Billed hours are not the same as what they're paid. I know my firm bills about 300 an hour for my time but I'm certainly not making 3k a day. No, that was what he was paid. I don't want to get too specific about my health, but he had his own office and staff, etc. That was the insurance rate, I think without insurance it was closer to $120 for 15 minutes. A few years ago he was being paid $85 an hour through insurance and I was paying my copay. The last time I saw him was last spring, and the insurance statements show him being paid $96.
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Oct 10, 2014 16:57
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hobbesmaster posted:But it doesn't stop in medical school. They have 4 years of medical school which takes up an inordinate amount of time, then they have years of residency where they spend literally every waking hour in their hospital. If they become a specialist their fellowship isn't going to be much better. Then, if they finally become an attending after 12 years and are a specialist like a surgeon they spend much of their time on call sitting in the hospital anyways, though now the room they're waiting in is much snazzier and they're getting paid a ton to do it. Right. I should have said this. I seem to have confused my explanation of "why doctors are weird" with "why fist year residents are bad doctors"
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Oct 10, 2014 16:57
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Pohl posted:No, that was what he was paid. I don't want to get too specific about my health, but he had his own office and staff, etc. That was the insurance rate, I think without insurance it was closer to $120 for 15 minutes. A few years ago he was being paid $85 an hour through insurance and I was paying my copay. The last time I saw him was last spring, and the insurance statements show him being paid $96. That supports the rest of the staff and overhead as well.
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Oct 10, 2014 16:58
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ReidRansom posted:That supports the rest of the staff and overhead as well. Often you get billed separately for the visit and for the doctor's time.
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Oct 10, 2014 17:05
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ReidRansom posted:That supports the rest of the staff and overhead as well. Yeah, I'm doing really poorly with this argument. I was just coming in to edit my post. He is still making a ton of money, which is the main point, and he bitches about the system loving him over. When Obamacare went through, he almost had a heart attack. Another consideration is that his office also has 3 counselors and a PA, so it isn't just him bringing money in. The waiting room is almost always full. The business is bringing in money like mad, and he thinks he is being hosed. Edit: He is a still a great doctor. I like him enough and respect him enough that I sent my mom to him. He just doesn't have a clue about anything but what he does, because he spends 15 hours a day doing what he is good at. Pohl fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Oct 10, 2014 |
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Oct 10, 2014 17:06
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BrandorKP posted:It's hard to switch off. If you spend all day telling people: "there is the right way to do X and you are objectively wrong to do it the way you have done it (please see attached evidence and reference document or regulatory citations)" that attitude sticks for at least a couple of hours and that's if you're self aware of it and actively trying not to do it. I imagine after the umpteenth time you have to deal with an anti-vaxxer or give the "Don't stick things that aren't butt toys up your butt" lecture to someone who just happened to "fall on" a flashlight while nude you end up with an opinion of humanity about as bitter as anyone who's worked retail but a dozen times as expensive.
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Oct 10, 2014 17:12
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Amergin posted:Are you playing the liberal version of me? Not really, no. I encounter these guys in my company pretty often. They're all from marketing or sales, and sweet christ are they the most smug motherfuckers to ever roam the planet. To a one, they act like they're in a frat. The topics of discussion (which you have no choice but to hear about, as speaking to each other or into their bluetooths at anything but a yell is apparently not an option) range from their golf game, to their new watch, to how much (insert "girl" here) wants them. Mind you, this is a phenomenon I only see in that particular area of the company. Suits or Bluetooths are standard in other areas as well, but folks are usually not remotely as aggressive or loud. I've only seen white guys among them, and nobody over 40. Anybody else run into this kind of schmuck?
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Oct 10, 2014 17:15
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420DD Butts posted:Using his criteria, anyone holding a BA/BS in the sciences is a scientist. Does anthropology count?
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Oct 10, 2014 17:21
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Talmonis posted:Not really, no. I encounter these guys in my company pretty often. They're all from marketing or sales, and sweet christ are they the most smug motherfuckers to ever roam the planet. To a one, they act like they're in a frat. The topics of discussion (which you have no choice but to hear about, as speaking to each other or into their bluetooths at anything but a yell is apparently not an option) range from their golf game, to their new watch, to how much (insert "girl" here) wants them. I worked in a grocery store for years and saw them all the time. Even though we were sharing the same space, we obviously were not living in the same world. They completely dismissed me like I was just a fixture in the store, I wasn't a person to them. I started treating them and people on cell phones like they were invisible and non existent, it made my life a lot easier.
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Oct 10, 2014 17:23
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Alkydere posted:I imagine after the umpteenth time you have to deal with an anti-vaxxer or give the "Don't stick things that aren't butt toys up your butt" lecture to someone who just happened to "fall on" a flashlight while nude you end up with an opinion of humanity about as bitter as anyone who's worked retail but a dozen times as expensive. For me it's more "Used mattresses are not an approved method of securing for hazardous materials." or "drums in the above named container were unsecured and adrift causing the cargo to shift and spill attracting thousands of bees which were sighted leaking from the torn door gasket." Retail is far worse, my dad has about forty years in grocery retail.
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Oct 10, 2014 17:28
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FWIW, corporate lawyers lean liberal (like most lawyers, including lawyers at large firms.) So the whole "debt makes doctors republicans" theory has a gaping hole through it there.
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Oct 10, 2014 17:30
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Kalman posted:FWIW, corporate lawyers lean liberal (like most lawyers, including lawyers at large firms.) Hmmm I wonder why Republicans are so pro-tort reform...
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Oct 10, 2014 17:31
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Kalman posted:FWIW, corporate lawyers lean liberal (like most lawyers, including lawyers at large firms.) Have you ever talked to a corporate lawyer? I have a good friend that is a vice president at a major bank in NYC. He agonizes every minute about how he is a liberal, but the government is stealing his money. Then, he buys a $5000 bottle of scotch. We were friends for a long time and talked every day. We don't talk much anymore because he is a smug rear end in a top hat that knows he is right, and he has the job and income to prove it. He likes leftist social issues, but he isn't really a liberal. He is more of a Libertarian. They may lean liberal, but what does that mean? It means they are on the liberal side of social issues, but staunchly conservative or libertarian when it comes to anything market based. Plus, he agonized about voting for Obama, because Obama was going to steal his money. It obviously didn't matter in the end, because look at the drat stock market. Voting for Obama was an excellent choice for him. He is so blind that he can't even see how loving awesome Obama is when it comes to stocks and financials. Pohl fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Oct 10, 2014 |
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Oct 10, 2014 17:45
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zoux posted:Hmmm I wonder why Republicans are so pro-tort reform... I'll just throw in that the AMA is one of the largest lobbies in favor of tort reform
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Oct 10, 2014 17:46
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hobbesmaster posted:Doctors have weird opinions about the outside world because they cannot experience it until their late 30s or early 40s if they wanted to. I have some cousins who just got out of the 'absurd hours for low pay' part of the path to being (some sort of doctor thing), and it's always eye-opening to talk to them about how it all works. All of them are of course married to other doctors, because that's all they interact with, and have little to no time for anything else. I just assumed it sorta ended after medical school -> residency or whatever, but it just goes on and on, many many years before finally getting to the part where they are the highly paid professionals you think of. I sat wondering just how much of the ridiculous hurdles were actually there 40-60 years ago when older doctors went through it all (and thus 'new doctors should do it too', like hazing in the military), and how much of it was added, embellished originally (uphill both ways in the snow!), or intentionally made worse by various interested parties over the years. It certainly seemed like a system very optimized to have a whole lot of hoops that involve doing actual work for very little (relatively) money for a very long time. And certainly not safe - 100+ hour weeks, multi-day shifts aren't things that are supposed to be normal, and actually indicate a labor shortage, but they persist despite harming many patients and the residents/trainees themselves. Congress not increasing the amount of funding for residency slots a while back will almost certainly gently caress us in the future, of course.
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Oct 10, 2014 17:48
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Talmonis posted:Not really, no. I encounter these guys in my company pretty often. They're all from marketing or sales, and sweet christ are they the most smug motherfuckers to ever roam the planet. To a one, they act like they're in a frat. The topics of discussion (which you have no choice but to hear about, as speaking to each other or into their bluetooths at anything but a yell is apparently not an option) range from their golf game, to their new watch, to how much (insert "girl" here) wants them. You sound like a jealous beta male who's attributing signs of douchebaggery to an entire group based off your personal experience with a small subset. So let me tell you about the black thugs I came across while walking downtown yesterday and how they have made me like black people who dress in street wear as a whole much less.
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Oct 10, 2014 17:52
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Ralepozozaxe posted:Does anthropology count? I'd consider anthropologists to be scientists, yeah.
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Oct 10, 2014 17:52
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The major difference between then and now is theirs a lot more MDs being pumped out of med school and not a lot more residencies to be filled. Even less glamorous residencies are being swallows up by the upper tier med schools. That and increasing schooling cost without increased pay is making an already exclusive field more so.
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Oct 10, 2014 17:53
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Quote of the day, "You’re so handsome that I can’t speak properly." ~ Gwyneth Paltrow to Barack Obama. And if you enjoy news quizes, try out is this a quote from Barack Obama or "goop", the lifestyle newsletter of Gwyneth Paltrow?
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Oct 10, 2014 18:00
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This just in from the White House: FLOTUS signs executive order allowing FLOTUS to sign executive orders, signs second order authorizing domestic drone strikes against "imminent threats"
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Oct 10, 2014 18:03
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