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InitialDave posted:Didn't Tesla have revenue in the region of $2.5 billion last year, with a profit somewhere around 25%? No Tesla Form 10-K 2014 posted:We have a history of losses and have to deliver significant cost reductions to achieve sustained, long-term profitability and long-term commercial success. This doesn't really impact actual owners of course - if anything it's good because you get more for your money. But the company itself is still pretty much based on selling hype and issuing stock to make money. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Oct 11, 2014 |
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Oct 11, 2014 14:32
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InitialDave posted:Didn't Tesla have revenue in the region of $2.5 billion last year, with a profit somewhere around 25%? A large part of their revenue comes from selling fuel economy "credits" to other carmakers, i.e. essentially a state subsidy, and not the only one. Tesla's "story" is really that they managed to churn out a real car in a reasonable amount of time and actually sell it in significant numbers, in a developed country market. That's no mean feat regardless of whether they make money or not. That makes them more of a real car maker than, say, Lotus, or any Chinese car maker.
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Oct 11, 2014 14:52
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Cream_Filling posted:What are you on about this is a pretty uncontroversial statement. They make utterly unrealistic claims about future products because their business model is to burn VC cash, just like every other tech bubble company. They are also trying to mimic apple's business model of total control. There was a guy who bought one at a salvage auction, repaired it, but it had to be "re-activated". Tesla refused unless he signed a waiver and brought it to their facility for them to do their own inspection. They also don't sell key components unless installed by them. so really, do you own that tesla, or do you own a hardware license to use that tesla, if they can deny functionality. This is a good read too. They own every dealer, therefore every parts counter. http://cafeelectric.com/stretchla/2014/07/14/pariah/ quote:“Due to the salvage status of your Model S , I have been instructed to cease providing you with parts. Tesla is very concerned about vehicles with salvaged titles being improperly repaired. Going forward, all salvaged vehicles must be inspected by us or our approved body shop, Precision Auto Body. If declared a candidate for proper repair, reconstruction must be completed by a Tesla-Certified Body Shop.” Translation: pay up, sucka.
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Oct 11, 2014 16:31
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I think if you can afford to buy a Tesla, you can afford to pay up.
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Oct 11, 2014 17:20
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InitialDave posted:Didn't Tesla have revenue in the region of $2.5 billion last year, with a profit somewhere around 25%? I see lots of red... https://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3ATSLA&fstype=ii&ei=L145VJihHIebrAHP6oDYDQ
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Oct 11, 2014 17:43
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VERTiG0 posted:I think if you can afford to buy a Tesla, you can afford to pay up. But some day that Tesla is going to be a $15k used car. A dealer being able to black list you from buying parts or demand you get it serviced by them and only them is unacceptable. Tesla is building the same kind of cult following as Apple filled with people who defend this garbage.
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Oct 11, 2014 17:49
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Powershift posted:
Tesla is also fronted by a dipshit dot com billionaire who loves to make public pronouncements about poo poo he doesn't understand like science and politics which plays well with the same dumbass libertarian nerd crowd that worships at the altar of Jobs.
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Oct 11, 2014 19:08
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Wheeee posted:Tesla is also fronted by a dipshit dot com billionaire who loves to make public pronouncements about poo poo he doesn't understand like science and politics which plays well with the same dumbass libertarian nerd crowd that worships at the altar of Jobs. Go post that in the Spaceflight Megathread (aka Elon Musk circlejerk).
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Oct 11, 2014 20:24
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Powershift posted:But some day that Tesla is going to be a $15k used car. A dealer being able to black list you from buying parts or demand you get it serviced by them and only them is unacceptable. I didn't consider this at all - you're right.
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Oct 11, 2014 20:28
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Well Tesla did force everyone else's hands when it comes to electric cars, where GM managed to kill people with ignition systems in the same time frame. You'll forgive me if I find General Motors a bit more sleazy than Tesla, which might be a pain in the rear end to deal with in the future if you buy into their 'ecosystem'.
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Oct 11, 2014 20:33
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It's not binary, you don't have to choose one or the other. GM being worse doesn't excuse tesla for being terrible. http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34915-Bought-a-used-Tesla-S-Need-parts?s=251932e2bd4c1a753ac38a58f7621c76 Refusing to sell parts to repair. It's going to be interesting once these cars start failing out of warranty. This really isn't helping their case against states that don't want direct sales. If GM is literally Hitler, then Tesla is literally Stalin.
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Oct 11, 2014 21:09
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I can understand Tesla's reticence to allow any uninspected salvage-title cars on the road. When a Tesla is on fire, it makes the news, and no one will care if it was a new car or a shoddy rebuild. For some reason, though, I thought that there were laws that prevented car companies from denying equipment to third-party repair shops -- I could swear I heard something about BMW not being allowed to withhold specialized repair equipment for <mumble mumble>, but I could also totally be making that up. Anyway, I'm hoping that as they try to expand their presence that they'll be willing to train and certify garages to make repairs. For a car to be mainstream you can't have two repair locations in a state. Right now it's a pretty exclusive vehicle, but the Model III is supposed to start at around $35k.
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Oct 11, 2014 21:21
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On the other hand, they are a new emerging brand and it would suck for them if an improperly repaired Tesla were to malfunction in such a way that kills someone. Hell, look at what happened to the volt when the media ran the story they catch fire after crashing. Just saying that the media won't really differentiate between an improperly repaired salvage car and one fresh off the showroom floor. Once they become a more established company I can see them relaxing a little at the parts desk. E:fb Bajaha fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Oct 11, 2014 |
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Oct 11, 2014 21:26
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tetrapyloctomy posted:I can understand Tesla's reticence to allow any uninspected salvage-title cars on the road. When a Tesla is on fire, it makes the news, and no one will care if it was a new car or a shoddy rebuild. For some reason, though, I thought that there were laws that prevented car companies from denying equipment to third-party repair shops -- I could swear I heard something about BMW not being allowed to withhold specialized repair equipment for <mumble mumble>, but I could also totally be making that up. Yeah that model's supposed to be for 2017 and every year the predicted price goes up by a couple thousand bucks and the performance targets drop because, surprise, it was lowballed as hell in order to look good to investors. Also Tesla takes the classic tech startup attitude towards regulation of "ignore them until someone gets the resources together to sue".
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Oct 11, 2014 21:30
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The focus electric is $36,000 and has the economies of scale bringing down the cost of 90% of the parts, and has a 65 mile range. Tesla expects to get a 200 mile range for the same price?
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Oct 11, 2014 21:41
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Is it even legal for tesla to do that poo poo? They aren't the authority on which cars are allowed on the road.
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Oct 11, 2014 21:49
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Powershift posted:The focus electric is $36,000 and has the economies of scale bringing down the cost of 90% of the parts, and has a 65 mile range. I think the upcoming Chevrolet Sonic EV is supposed to have a 200 mile range in the same price bracket. I really don't see how Tesla can do the same thing and not lose their rear end on each one sold. Hell, I know at least some of the big manufacturers are still losing money on each EV sold. I think Fiat loses around $15k per 500E.
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Oct 11, 2014 22:04
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SperginMcBadposter posted:Is it even legal for tesla to do that poo poo? They aren't the authority on which cars are allowed on the road. Even if it's illegal, who's going to stop them? It costs money and resources for authorities to go after lawbreakers and Musk is both connected and hyperaggressive in terms of PR. Basically the same thing you see with other probably illegal doings by startups like various components of Uber/Lyft but without those companies' failure to lobby effectively.
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Oct 11, 2014 22:10
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Bajaha posted:Hell, look at what happened to the volt when the media ran the story they catch fire after crashing. My favorite part of that story was that the headline was right, but HILARIOUSLY misleading. "Chevy Volt battery catches fire after crash testing!" Is a perfectly true statement. However the complete version is terrible at selling newspapers: "Chevy Volt battery catches fire three weeks after crash testing, when the test agency failed to disconnect the battery as the manufacturer recommends, and then left the car upside down, in the rain!" 
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Oct 11, 2014 22:21
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My personal favorite was the Volt owner that was rear-ended by an 18-wheeler. So she goes to GM-Volt forums, and posts that the car caught on fire after a rear impact, how unsafe the car is, blah blah blah. Someone asks for pictures and eventually she posts some. Car backend is crushed all the way to the drivers seat. So the car was completely demolished, and she was able to walk away with minor injuries. And the car caught fire between the time she got out and the tow truck came to haul it off. They were able to quickly put it out. But the car caught on fire in a rear impact. 
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Oct 11, 2014 22:42
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Powershift posted:But some day that Tesla is going to be a $15k used car. A dealer being able to black list you from buying parts or demand you get it serviced by them and only them is unacceptable. Some day when a tesla lights on fire it wont show up on every car blog on the internet as the failure of electric cars either Hasnt happened yet though
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Oct 11, 2014 22:53
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All these electric cars when all I want is a V8.  (Straight-Sixes are also acceptable)
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Oct 11, 2014 23:19
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coolskillrex remix posted:Some day when a tesla lights on fire it wont show up on every car blog on the internet as the failure of electric cars either You're right. Internet car blogs use tesla failures as sensationalist clickbait, and therefore tesla shouldn't sell parts for damaged or out of warranty cars. GM is being pounded by the ignition switch thing being in the news too, they should be allowed to stop selling replacement electrical parts for their cars. And toyota, unintended accleration, no more engine parts from toyota, if something wears or fails, you have to bring it into the dealership, seems reasonable. Don't forget ford explorer tire failures and rollovers. Ford should be allowed to use wheel locks for which only they have the key to prevent installation of unapproved tires. Also, it would be cool of the ECU in all of these cars fried itself when the airbags went off, with the condition that you had to give the dealer final say over whether or not it was safe, and whether or not you get it back before you can get a replacement. That would be grand. Because we can't have blogs talking poo poo
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Oct 11, 2014 23:20
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I still think the key is scale here, Toyota and GM are both very well established and will be able to sell cars no matter what is making headlines this week, a but of bad press won't kill either. But Tesla, bad press from sensationalized news reports might be enough to tank them.
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Oct 11, 2014 23:33
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I have a 170 mile commute twice a week and I would love an EV that could handle that range. I'm really looking forward to the Tesla 3. I blow through 60 bucks a week of premium in my SHO making that drive.
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Oct 12, 2014 02:00
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skipdogg posted:I have a 170 mile commute twice a week and I would love an EV that could handle that range. I'm really looking forward to the Tesla 3. I blow through 60 bucks a week of premium in my SHO making that drive. Yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath.
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Oct 12, 2014 02:28
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Cream_Filling posted:Yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath. Like I said, the latest rumors out of GM are a Sonic EV with a 200ish mile range for around $30k. Gonna be smaller and not as nice as the Tesla 3 if it ever actually happens, but it should be a little cheaper as well.
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Oct 12, 2014 02:30
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fknlo posted:Like I said, the latest rumors out of GM are a Sonic EV with a 200ish mile range for around $30k. Gonna be smaller and not as nice as the Tesla 3 if it ever actually happens, but it should be a little cheaper as well. Consider the source of those rumors: Dan Akerson. Yeah, it's not going to happen. I'm sure there's going to be a Sonic EV but 200 miles for around 30k? No.
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Oct 12, 2014 02:32
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Powershift posted:The focus electric is $36,000 and has the economies of scale bringing down the cost of 90% of the parts, and has a 65 mile range. Keep in mind Tesla is building a gargantuan factory in Nevada to produce their own battery packs. Once the factory opens, their build cost per car will be considerably lower. Other companies will be either buying batteries from Teslasonic or another company still.
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Oct 12, 2014 14:20
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Powershift posted:You're right. Internet car blogs use tesla failures as sensationalist clickbait, and therefore tesla shouldn't sell parts for damaged or out of warranty cars. ..Yeah pretty much? GM killed people with their ignitions and didnt make a blip on any auto "journalist" news sites until they got sued, yet teslas catch on fire less than ICE and its everywhere. Keep whining about it im sure a lot of people will agree and tesla will eventually give a gently caress
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Oct 13, 2014 01:04
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It's also not as if you can get anything you want to do it yourself on a modern car. Go walk into a dealer with a flash drive and ask then for a factory image for your car's ECU and see how far get. They'll offer to flash the car for you, but they will not sell you the 'part' (in this case, software) in order to do it yourself. One issue with Tesla right now is there aren't exactly a lot of third party sources of parts. Like it or not, any business is allowed to refuse to do business with you. Every car manufacturer is guiltily of some form of this on some scale, but for the car majority of stuff, they can't due to competition from 3rd party sources. This week eventually work itself out.
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Oct 13, 2014 02:02
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bull3964 posted:It's also not as if you can get anything you want to do it yourself on a modern car. Go walk into a dealer with a flash drive and ask then for a factory image for your car's ECU and see how far get. They'll offer to flash the car for you, but they will not sell you the 'part' (in this case, software) in order to do it yourself. loving tesla not letting me take it to any shop who has no idea how to work on the huge explosive battery that runs along the bottom of the car!!!  Who do they think they are? a company that stands alone as having a 280 mile battery pack and a network of charging stations that charge it in 30 minutes with extremely high voltage??????? loving ridiculousMeanwhile the bmw i8 is pretty much the pinnacle of D I Y
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Oct 13, 2014 02:25
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Either way, this is going to come to a head sooner rather than later. Tesla just won their legal battle to sell cars in Massachusetts, which also recently passed a "right to repair" law which will force tesla to make their diagnostic tools available to any owner or repair shop who requests them "under reasonable terms". coolskillrex remix posted:loving tesla not letting me take it to any shop who has no idea how to work on the huge explosive battery that runs along the bottom of the car!!! Nice strawman. http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34915-Bought-a-used-Tesla-S-Need-parts quote:Hello, So is it a load bearing sunroof, or does the electricity run through it? http://cafeelectric.com/stretchla/ (this whole thing is a good read) quote:First of all, it was not that big of a shock to me. I’ve heard of others with salvage Teslas unable to buy parts before me, I feel very grateful that I was able to buy as many parts as I did. I do wish that I had bought the front sway bar and drop link before this happened, but I’m sure I’ll find used parts somewhere. Or the sway bar, how much electricity is running through the sway bar? Powershift fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Oct 13, 2014 |
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Oct 13, 2014 02:34
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Powershift posted:They are also trying to mimic apple's business model of total control. There was a guy who bought one at a salvage auction, repaired it, but it had to be "re-activated". Tesla refused unless he signed a waiver and brought it to their facility for them to do their own inspection. Translation: You did not actually read the article quote:My primary question was “why are they doing this?” I asked if they had any more to say, but Tesla provided no further explanation so it’s up to us to speculate. The best explanation I’ve heard so far was from a friend who talked about the excellent safety record of the Model S and how it interacts with our dysfunctional media. Remember what happened when Tesla’s slowly caught fire many long minutes after impacting large destructive objects on the road? The media made a sensation out of a non-event and Elon Musk admitted demand for the Model S fell. Now imagine if you will, what would happen if I was killed in an accident in my unsafe Tesla? I can see the headlines now: “Man Killed in Model S, Are EV’s Safe?” (Note to media reading this, this is not a real headline, do not quote me out of context!) Maybe somewhere down in the fourth paragraph they might mention that I was driving a salvage title car with a cracked frame and the air bags disabled fully aware of the danger, but that’s not what the world would remember, they would just eat up the headline and believe the media fairy tale. Of course people die all the time in other cars, but this is still a special time for Tesla and the first fatality is bound to be a media circus. I hope it is still far off. (Edit: Since I first wrote this there has been one fatality of an alleged thief of a Tesla that split in in half using a light pole in Hollywood at a very high rate of speed) quote:People have contacted me about these issues and already I know of some very unsafe “repairs” that are being done on Teslas to try to drive the car without Tesla support. Hacking may be encouraged as well so long as Tesla does not provide basic service access and especially when the service center refuses to work on unapproved salvaged cars. How many people will not be able to do something as simple as bleed the coolant due to being on a Tesla black list? I know that encourages me to find a work around which may persuade me to share hacking information with others. But I really don’t want to do that, I’m not sure that public hacks are in the best interest of safe vehicles. The guy with a salvaged tesla is significantly less upset than you are, and you have no tesla.  Basically youre pissed that tesla is too heavily scrutinized and has a PR team that knows this. Frankly if i was a tesla stock owner i wouldnt want someone driving a salvaged tesla around unless tesla had a very very close look at it themselves. That alone is enough for tesla to say "gently caress you, if you dont like it, dont buy a tesla", its really simple. They put a titanium plate on the bottom of EVERYONES car over A SINGLE accident where a huge pole punctured the battery. It shouldnt be surprising that theyre going to shut your rear end down if youre driving a tesla around that suffered a huge accident, but they are not allowed to inspect it themselves. coolskillrex remix fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Oct 13, 2014 |
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Oct 13, 2014 02:46
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Powershift posted:Either way, this is going to come to a head sooner rather than later. Who determined the extent of the damage in the accident? tesla? Why is his sunroof damaged from an accident? Was it a loving rollover? Its already a huge risk to import teslas to a lot of countries considering the current infrastructure, did this guy seriously buy a salvage roll over tesla and not see a problem with that down the line?? Is he retarded?
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Oct 13, 2014 02:48
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coolskillrex remix posted:Translation: You did not actually read the article I'm angry that a car company is being allowed to decide who they sell replacement parts to. You're defending them because they're the automotive jesus here to save us from the big bad corporations. And yes. A man capable of repairing bodywork bought a car with body damage, intending to repair it. what a loving loon, am i right? The insurance company who paid out the car determined that the cost to repair was greater than the value of the vehicle. The cost including labour at the rates of the shop that has a monopoly on tesla repairs. The only body shop tesla is willing to sell replacement parts to.
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Oct 13, 2014 03:14
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Yeah none of this 'Tesla Bad' stuff seems to make any sense or actually make the company sound bad. Haven't posters in this very thread talked about getting sent to one of the special schools for (I think it was Porsche) electric maintenance and how those other brands are only letting electric cars be maintained at special certified centers? IIRC this was also an issue with very few dealerships being certified to maintain, and thus offer for sale, the Caddy ELR. Also it's worth keeping in mind that Tesla and Musk want to make an electric car because they want electric cars to be cool and successful, while GM et al makes electric cars only because they're required to sell x per year, and the effort and engagement of the former and latter reflect the highly different priorities.
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Oct 13, 2014 03:14
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Snowdens Secret posted:Also it's worth keeping in mind that Tesla and Musk want to make an electric car because they want electric cars to be cool and successful, while GM et al makes electric cars only because they're required to sell x per year, and the effort and engagement of the former and latter reflect the highly different priorities. If you think ~  ~Elon~~ is making cars because he thinks their cool and they should be successful, you gotta get your head examined. He's doing it because there's money to be made from it plain and simple...a task made easier by the cult of personality he's built up. The guy isn't some benevolent and high-minded benefactor to humanity by any measure.
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Oct 13, 2014 03:32
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No one is in any business unless they think there's money to be made in it, unless they're a complete fool. Tesla is a pretty good example that if you were simply looking to make a quick buck there are surely far easier markets to enter than the American car market. Remember how we all mocked Mahindra for trying it and and then chuckled at their almost immediate failure?
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Oct 13, 2014 03:57
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Powershift posted:I'm angry that a car company is being allowed to decide who they sell replacement parts to. You're defending them because they're the automotive jesus here to save us from the big bad corporations. Should they sell entire batteries too? "if i cant build this car entirely from crate parts THATS LIKE APPLE AND APPLES EVIL" Theyre not automotive jesus or "saving us from big bad corporations" (not even sure what that has to do with you demanding that tesla have no oversight over their very complex and exclusive cars being at the mercy of DIY rebuilds) theyre just the only automaker actually making headway into the purely-electric car world. No one is even close to them. Everyone else is 99% invested into ICE. You would have to be blind to not see that they are entirely at odds with the automotive industry. What they are saving us from is people who seriously think that its best left in the hands bmw/GE/toyota to develop electric vehicles. They will do it at a snails pace, because they are like you and stuck thinking a "car" has to fit the definition its held for the past 50 years and too much deviation is evil. You think GM would roll out a supercharger network? or they would let everyone upgrade to titanium underbodies for free? Nope. Let the car companies do their thing, while tesla does a good job of providing transportation that happens to have four wheels and runs purely on electricity. Also its a pretty drat fun mode of transportation too. quote:And yes. A man capable of repairing bodywork bought a car with body damage, intending to repair it. what a loving loon, am i right? No he seems pretty level headed, he is not nearly as outraged as you are over the situation, because he actually understands how tesla is delivering a very different product that really doesnt need to adhere to the exact same standards as the rest of the automotive industry. Its really really simple, if your feelings are true then why are you worrying? Tesla will fold due to how "apple" they are, and it will usher in the era of bmw/toyota/ge shifting over entirely to electric vehicles. 
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Oct 13, 2014 07:39
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