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I always saw Piccolo getting his role reduced as having a lot to do with absorbing Kami. Kami was plenty powerful but never wanted to directly interfere with anything unless he had to, and Piccolo picked up that trait. It was pretty important, especially since Dende didn't know poo poo about poo poo and he was more useful training Goten and Trunks than fighting Buu.
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Oct 10, 2014 19:00
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gently caress trophy 2k14 posted:Correction: He never went super saiyan two till he came back. Ehhh I don't know if Piccolo was really on par with the Super Saiyans until he absorbed Kami. He handles himself well against Android 19 and Dr. Gero, but those guys were kinda chumps anyway.
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Oct 10, 2014 19:51
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The Ninth Layer posted:Ehhh I don't know if Piccolo was really on par with the Super Saiyans until he absorbed Kami. He handles himself well against Android 19 and Dr. Gero, but those guys were kinda chumps anyway. He trained with Goku for 3 years so I wouldn't be surprised if he kept up.
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Oct 10, 2014 20:14
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gently caress trophy 2k14 posted:Correction: He never went super saiyan two till he came back. He blocked Tien's punch with the chopsticks, he used them to knock Piccolo out.
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Oct 10, 2014 20:46
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I don't remember it being said that Cell is in an actual Super Saiyan mode, I remember thinking its aura is just golden because it had a bunch of Saiyan genes
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Oct 10, 2014 20:58
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The Ninth Layer posted:Ehhh I don't know if Piccolo was really on par with the Super Saiyans until he absorbed Kami. He handles himself well against Android 19 and Dr. Gero, but those guys were kinda chumps anyway. They were still stronger than Freeza. Newbie SSJs trumped Freeza but trained for 3 years to beat the androids that Trunks couldn't do much to. Piccolo/Vegeta/Goku were all at the level that felt like they could have fought the androids to varying degrees. If it was standard SSJ1/Freeza level, he wouldn't have been confident at all. So he had to at least have surpassed that general area. Also, when Piccolo powered up, sensing him was comparable to sensing SSJ Goku/Trunks when they arrived.
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Oct 10, 2014 21:02
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Trunks didn't fight 19 and 20 in the future, though. It's possible that 19 and 20 (if they existed at all in Trunks' timeline) were killed off by the Z Fighters when they showed up even without three years of training. I also don't know that 19 and 20 were stronger than Freeza. 17 and 18 definitely were, no question there.
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Oct 10, 2014 21:15
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:I always saw Piccolo getting his role reduced as having a lot to do with absorbing Kami. Kami was plenty powerful but never wanted to directly interfere with anything unless he had to, and Piccolo picked up that trait. It was pretty important, especially since Dende didn't know poo poo about poo poo and he was more useful training Goten and Trunks than fighting Buu. You're putting more thought into this than toryiama probably did.
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Oct 10, 2014 21:23
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toryiama: Goku FTW, loving dope rear end blasts BOOYAH
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Oct 10, 2014 21:37
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gently caress trophy 2k14 posted:You're putting more thought into this than toryiama probably did. This explains like half of DBZ, to be fair, especially the zenkai poo poo
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Oct 10, 2014 21:47
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DBM related. XXI is a magic android, I bet. 21 would be the next android in the chain, maybe with some babidi and buu stuff included.
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Oct 10, 2014 22:40
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Finished reading DBM this morning. You'd figure people would eventually start preparing for those eye lasers, and yet...
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Oct 10, 2014 23:51
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Prison Warden posted:I think that was mostly Nail, I got the impression that he was stronger than any of Freeza's dudes who weren't the ginyu force. During the undersea battle when Bills even pulls out the beam attacks Goku is all "Now we're using energy attacks?!" in the dub at least I think. Saw it in the behind the scenes and I loved it for this reason specifically. Also of note, the dub added more screaming to that scene.
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Oct 11, 2014 01:17
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He says something about it in the original, too.
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Oct 11, 2014 04:00
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The Ninth Layer posted:Trunks didn't fight 19 and 20 in the future, though. It's possible that 19 and 20 (if they existed at all in Trunks' timeline) were killed off by the Z Fighters when they showed up even without three years of training. I also don't know that 19 and 20 were stronger than Freeza. 17 and 18 definitely were, no question there. What I'm saying is that they trained to fight people that were a whole lot stronger than Freeza, and Piccolo thought he was close to par to Vegeta/Goku in doing so. If he were weaker than SSJ Goku/Trunks when Freeza arrived, that would make no sense. Piccolo was clearly supposed to be more powerful than Namek era SSJs when the androids arrived. Toriyama still had him keeping pace with everyone else until the end of Cell.
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Oct 11, 2014 14:19
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Darko posted:What I'm saying is that they trained to fight people that were a whole lot stronger than Freeza, and Piccolo thought he was close to par to Vegeta/Goku in doing so. If he were weaker than SSJ Goku/Trunks when Freeza arrived, that would make no sense. Piccolo was clearly supposed to be more powerful than Namek era SSJs when the androids arrived. Toriyama still had him keeping pace with everyone else until the end of Cell. Although it annoys me that Piccolo's attacks against a Cell who isn't even able to defend himself have the same effect as Yamcha's (namely, jack poo poo), I do have to say that his lame weakness gave me one of my few happy memories from GT: Piccolo challenging Baby-infected Gohan and getting blown the gently caress up. I can't even find a clip of it anywhere because it's seriously two seconds long and it's hilarious. I don't know if they were making fun of the movies and Piccolo showing up to save the day or whatever but it's so good. Also, I've always liked the theory that Goku & Friends did kill Androids 19 and 20, but that since they were killed themselves shortly thereafter by 17, 18 and a heart virus, Trunks never learned about them.
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Oct 11, 2014 14:28
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Since Trunks thinks 17 & 18 killed Gero before going on their rampage, maybe they did that before he was able to activate 19 to turn him into an android.
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Oct 11, 2014 16:45
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surf rock posted:Although it annoys me that Piccolo's attacks against a Cell who isn't even able to defend himself have the same effect as Yamcha's (namely, jack poo poo), If it makes you feel any better that only happens in filler. In the original Vegeta is the only one that attacks Cell.
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Oct 11, 2014 17:53
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Flippinlikebirds posted:If it makes you feel any better that only happens in filler. In the original Vegeta is the only one that attacks Cell. It did seem uncharacteristic for them to do actual teamwork.
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Oct 11, 2014 18:09
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The Battle of Gods dub is wonderful.
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Oct 11, 2014 21:19
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Squallege posted:The Battle of Gods dub is wonderful. It really is. I liked it a lot originally, but the dub pushed it to my favorite DBZ movie of them all.
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Oct 11, 2014 23:00
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Some Numbers posted:Namekian fusion is also pretty bullshit, since Piccolo went from about Raditz level to fighting second form Freeza after absorbing Nail. Looking at it in reverse, the Nameless Namek splitting into Kami and King Piccolo reduced his power level from equal to or greater than final form Freeza at 100% full power to weaker than Raditz.
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Oct 11, 2014 23:32
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Squallege posted:The Battle of Gods dub is wonderful. Everyone does great especially Jason Douglas and Sabat.
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Oct 11, 2014 23:37
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Metal Loaf posted:Looking at it in reverse, the Nameless Namek splitting into Kami and King Piccolo reduced his power level from equal to or greater than final form Freeza at 100% full power to weaker than Raditz. Piccolo Jr's power level at the start of Z was around 3-400. That means King Piccolo was even weaker.
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Oct 11, 2014 23:39
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It's almost like trying to quantify ~power levels~ is a completely fruitless exercise and really not in keeping with the spirit of the show. Vegeta has the right idea:  No Dignity fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Oct 11, 2014 |
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Oct 11, 2014 23:44
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Some Numbers posted:Piccolo Jr's power level at the start of Z was around 3-400. That means King Piccolo was even weaker. Was it though? When he "Birthed" Piccolo, would he have made him as powerful as himself? Like Cymbol and crew??? Something else has been annoying me. During the Nappa fight, they talk about how they can't revive Chaotzu with the Dragonballs since he's already bee revived once. He dies, then later is back. I don't recall him getting wished back by any new Dragonballs, but it's been a while. However if it's because he was revived by "New" Dragonballs, why can't Goku be revived in the Buu Saga, doesn't the Supreme Kai give him his life or something? It's been YEARS since I've watched all of the Buu Saga, but obviously Goku is back alive by the middle of it. He fights with his "One day on earth" originally, but in the Kai reshoot of it, that day is already almost done and there is still a lot to go.
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Oct 11, 2014 23:54
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Drowning Rabbit posted:Was it though? When he "Birthed" Piccolo, would he have made him as powerful as himself? Like Cymbol and crew??? Chaotzu was revived by the Namek Balls after his death-by-explosion against Nappa, which can revive anyone as many times as needed with the restriction that only one person can be wished back at a time. The Earth balls can bring back many people with a single wish, but cannot bring back a given person more than once. Goku didn't get wished back after Cell because the person being brought back must come back willingly. Goku wanted to stay dead since his very presence seemed to attract powerful enemies. Zonekeeper fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Oct 12, 2014 |
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Oct 12, 2014 00:01
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Zonekeeper posted:Chaotzu was revived by the Namek Balls after his death-by-explosion against Nappa, which can revive anyone as many times as needed with the restriction that only one person can be wished back at a time. The Earth balls can bring back many people with a single wish, but cannot bring back a given person more than once. I remember him not getting wished back willingly, but he needed to be revived during Buu correct? And was willing???
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Oct 12, 2014 00:07
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I think he stayed dead too long.
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Oct 12, 2014 00:10
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Drowning Rabbit posted:I remember him not getting wished back willingly, but he needed to be revived during Buu correct? And was willing??? The Old Kai gave his life to Goku.
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Oct 12, 2014 00:16
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Yea old Kai saw Gohan getting the crap beaten out of him and decreed Goku had to return to Earth and gave him his life. It was one of those "there are no options left" decisions.
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Oct 12, 2014 01:37
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Some Numbers posted:The Old Kai gave his life to Goku. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm9KaJG1EnY The is pretty much the best example of how little death means in the Dragonball universe; all the Old Kai ended up doing was trading halos with Goku. 
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Oct 12, 2014 02:08
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sharktamer posted:I think he stayed dead too long. This actually makes sense then. Didn't think of that.
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Oct 12, 2014 02:13
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Drowning Rabbit posted:Was it though? When he "Birthed" Piccolo, would he have made him as powerful as himself? Like Cymbol and crew??? Look at it this way - Goku after years of training with Kami was only as strong as Piccolo Jr. at the 23rd Tournament/Budokai. Before years of training with Kzmi, Goku was capable of killing Prime King Piccolo. The implication was plainly that Kami and Mr. Popo were stronger than King Piccolo. You can explain this in a couple different ways but in any event, there's no real doubt Piccolo Jr. is more powerful than his dad. Power Levels are incredibly consistent up until the Freeza Saga. It's just Freeza and his nonsense that gently caress up everything. Once he shows up people start getting power jumps of MILLIONS out of nowhere. Look at it this way, everyone gained a few thousand or even tens of thousands at best. Freeza's personal guards were only in the 20,000s. The Ginyu Force, Freeza's most elite fighters, had about 40,000 on average I believe. Captain Ginyu himself had a max PL of 120,000. That seems reasonable. Then here comes Freeza, who's max PL is 120.000,000. He is literally 1,000 times stronger than his strongest fighter. Thus Vegeta, Gohan, Goku and Piccolo all need to gain power levels by the millions out of nowhere in order to pose any real threat. Freeza is the only reason PLs don't work. They had a very consistent and logical gain up until that point.
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Oct 12, 2014 02:39
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Goku completely outclassed King Piccolo and couldn't touch either Mr. Popo or Kami. In turn, Kami couldn't touch Piccolo Jr. and Goku was the only one fast enough to keep up with him.
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Oct 12, 2014 02:49
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NikkolasKing posted:Look at it this way - Goku after years of training with Kami was only as strong as Piccolo Jr. at the 23rd Tournament/Budokai. Before years of training with Kzmi, Goku was capable of killing Prime King Piccolo. If you want please note that the scouters the Ginyu's brought were brand new models, implying Freeza had never used anything but the old ones pre namek, the ones that blow up way below a million, and no one in his whole empire had ever conceived of sensing energy. It's extremely possible he was just trying to intimidate his foes. Plus the whole point of power level numbers in the story are to show that the people who pay any attention to them are dumb stupid babies who get their asses killed.
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Oct 12, 2014 03:32
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Raditz shows up, says he had a higher PL than Goku and Piccolo and he proceeds to easily defeat both of them. PLs were right on the money there. The only reason he lost was because he dicked around. Oh and because Goku w/Shattered Ribs could hold him in a full nelson. Great writing there, Toriyama. Then Vegeta showed up and easily beat the poo poo out of Goku until Goku used Kaioken which explicitly jumped his PL to matcH Vegeta's 18,000. Then on Namek Vegeta meets a fellow 18,000 but he kills Cui easily because his, Vegeta's, PL is now much higher than that thanks to Saiyan hax. And it goes on and on like that. I don't know thy this forum insists Power Levels are meaningless. DBZ is one of the most rigidly structured series ever. In something like Rurouni Kenshin you could argue "so-and-so might be able to beat so-and-so but he'd lose to so-and-so because his fighting style is at a disadvantage." WitH DBZ though, higher PL = automatic win. When Tien, with a lower PL, tried to defend himself against Nappa, what was the result? Nappa just punched his arm off. When Vegeta unloaded everything he had on Perfect Cell, it did nothing. Why? Cel was several times stronger. Higher PL = Stronger, More Durable, Faster, Can Blow Up More poo poo NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Oct 12, 2014 |
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Oct 12, 2014 03:46
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Because at no point is a fight actually decided by power levels. Like, let's look at literally every example you pointed out: 1) Goku/Piccolo vs Raditz Raditz is stronger than both of them combined normally, but it's pointed out that the heroes' techniques are stronger than they are. Sure their power levels spike with their attack, but all that goes to show is that the baseline reading doesn't mean anything. Raditz is ultimately killed by, you guessed it, a technique. Also Goku took Raditz down by grabbing his tail. 2) Goku vs Vegeta Initially, the fight isn't a question of "who is stronger" because Goku can not even hit Vegeta. He has to activate Kaio-ken to be fast enough to land a blow, and obviously Vegeta isn't going down in one punch. He's forced to boost himself further and further to keep up, and it doesn't work. He has to use the Spirit Bomb to inflict enough damage to get Vegeta pissed off enough to go Oozaru, and then Yajirobe takes him down with the established weakness of the form. And then Gohan goes apeshit. 3) Vegeta vs Cui Cui is a complete wuss, but Vegeta explicitly dodges his attack instead of face tanking it. Because, you know, this isn't a RPG where you level up and your defense gets higher. 4) Tien vs Nappa Okay really? Nappa is strong enough to crush mountains, no poo poo he can just punch Tien's arm off. 5) Vegeta vs Perfect Cell I think you straight up don't remember this fight because Final Flash wrecks Perfect Cell. Cell was just counting on his regeneration. And that's ignoring how literally the entire point of Trunks' ascended SS state was how being more powerful didn't mean you were faster.
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Oct 12, 2014 04:07
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Everyone can crush mountains. I think Goku and Freeza even kicked like this island in half if I'm remembering right. And mountains are small fries, Piccolo could casually vaporize the Moon during the Saiyan Saga. Mountains are nothing. What part of "higher power level - higher everything" are you missing? Trunks' Ultra SSJ form was specifically an exception. SSJ2 and 3 are dozens of times stronger than any form of SSJ1 but they don't speed. Besides, are you forgetting, Cell could do exactly what Trunks did? Trunks was NEVER stronger than Cell, Cell just didn't bother making himself as strong as he could have been. Cell was also holding back against Vegeta. You are forgetting Cell never displayed his full power except against SSJ2 Gohan. He only powered up to 100% there (for all the good it did him) and every time before that he was the equivalent of Freeza's Final Form at 50% or whatever. Speaking of which, that's another example of PLs > all else. Every time Freeza is losing, what does he do? increase his Power Level. One second he's losing to Piccolo, next second Piccolo can't do poo poo to him. One second Goku is about his equal, the next second he's using 50% instead of only 25% and now Goku can't do anything. The Spirit Bomb explicitly failed against him even while he was holding back his PL. When Kaioken x 20 wasn't enough, Goku finally went SSJ which gives a x 50 boost, making him stronger than Freeza ever could be.
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Oct 12, 2014 04:30
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I think you seriously just need to re-read the manga because absolutely nothing you wrote is correct. Tien sure as hell wasn't a mountain crusher at the beginning (unless he used Tribeam, I guess), and more to the point that panel has Nappa with a fist glowing with ki slam an unprepared Tien. Nappa could probably punch through solid steel like that. And Tien's unreinforced arm is not exactly solid steel. "'Higher power level = higher everything' except these two cases that said it wasn't" is a terrible argument. Full power Perfect Cell was probably stronger than SS2 Gohan, it just doesn't mean poo poo because a) he can't hit Gohan b) he didn't get any sturdier. It is very much a case-by-case basis as to how your power correlates to your other attributes, because otherwise Super Buu + SS3 Gotenks should have just been able to instantly squash Mystic Gohan/face tank all of his attacks instead of having to catch him off guard. Final Flash and Instant Transmission Kamehameha both blew Perfect Cell the gently caress up. You seem to have this idea that it was because Cell was hiding his true power level, but it's really not. Both Vegeta and Goku were weaker than Perfect Cell when they landed those after all. There is a very good reason both Cell and Buu had super regeneration, it was because Toriyama recognized that offense had rapidly outpaced defense, so the big villains had to be hard to kill. And then there's your Freeza argument. Second form Freeza vs Piccolo was explicitly both sides not actually trying, Freeza literally just went third form because he felt like it. And Freeza admits that both Goku's full force Kamehameha and Spirit Bomb could have/should have killed him, he only survived though focusing entirely on defense/sheer luck. And even the final SS1 vs 100% Freeza (which wasn't much of a fight due to Freeza's inability to really control his power) ends in what is technically a defeat for Goku; he may be stronger than Freeza, but he can't breathe in space. He basically lucks out into survival. I feel like your problem might be that you're basing your argument off the anime? EDIT: And even then, all of this is ignoring the true spirit of the "power levels are bullshit" quote. None of the fights in DBZ are decided by power level, it's always due to circumstances. A fight is not a mathematical formula, and every single character who thinks it is is defeated because of their arrogance. EDIT 2: Oh my god why are so many of my posts in this thread berating people about DBZ. What am I doing with my life. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Oct 12, 2014 |
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Oct 12, 2014 05:59
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