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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'd pull up the specific article so we could actually talk about it directly but she's taken them all down so oh well. Going from memory her criticisms seemed technically valid but very superficial, written more to generate pageviews from RAGE and CONTROVERSY than anything else. Mountains out of molehills. I recall she was really mad about R Scott Bakker's stuff at one point and admitted she only read 5 pages of one of his books before putting it down (The book in question was his first, which iirc mentions that a rape happened but doesn't go into any detail? I think that's why she hated it). That's not even enough to say anything particularly interesting about the book, you're just screaming in rage if you're going on just a few pages. Like yeah if you find yourself immediately repelled by the author's writing style then sure, by all means put it down and don't look back. But if you want to go into any detail when talking about an author be they good or bad, you kinda have to read at least a little more than that! Srice fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Oct 14, 2014 20:00
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Well there is some very detailed tentacle rape later on in that trilogy of Bakker's so if she thought there would be more where that came from she was right.
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Oct 14, 2014 20:12
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Cardiovorax posted:Tolkien, if nothing else, has the excuse that he genuinely didn't mean to be racist to anyone. There is no mean-spiritedness at all in his writing. Some of that stuff looks suspicious in retrospect, but he very clearly and very vocally was not anti-semitic or anything like that. He famously sent a very angry letter to a Nazi publisher who tried to get him to come and make racist speeches against Jews. The rest of his correspondence supports this. Dwarves are partially based in Hebrew culture and language, but they're also completely sympathetic. That's more than most modern fantasy authors can say about themselves. I can't stand that sort of writing in RH and I'm not really interested in whether Tolkien is racist, a defender of Jewish people everywhere, or whatever. But I am far more interested in critically engaging with things I really enjoyed growing up (and still read). Junot Diaz says it best: quote:Wondering aloud, If we were orcs, wouldn't we, at a racial level, imagine ourselves to look like elves? How the different "races" in Middle Earth are constructed and written about is really interesting and I think a lot of that is a product of how and where Tolkien grew up.
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Oct 14, 2014 20:16
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The Mirror Empire for Kindle is $1.99 today on Amazon.
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Oct 14, 2014 20:20
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Megazver posted:If she wanted to move past her being a tremendous rear end in a top hat she could have, I dunno, tried to make some amends or shown some awareness that her behavior was pretty lovely instead of changing her identity and trying to suck up to the same people she spent years harassing. And no one here even mentioned any threats or harassment, please tell us more about how you're not down with things that no one here is doing. No one here is doing anything of the sort, as far as I am aware. She is getting stalked over this, however, and my understanding of the situation is somewhat other than "she's a jerk who deserves everything that's coming to her". I am waiting to see what sort of amends she makes; I believe she intends to do so in the near future, but that she does not feel it is safe this second to do it. e: I mean, I do absolutely understanding people who find this sufficient reason to not support her writing. Like that is a legit conclusion to arrive at, absolutely. I haven't decided yet; I just do think it is important to say that the poo poo she is getting from other corners is in no way justified by her behaviour. neongrey fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Oct 14, 2014 20:21
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genghis.khan posted:Well there is some very detailed tentacle rape later on in that trilogy of Bakker's so if she thought there would be more where that came from she was right. Yeah but that feels like she's right more in the stopped clock kind of sense, y'know? (Same in guessing that rape would be handled terribly since it's a fantasy novel; the odds are definitely in your favor on that one)
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Oct 14, 2014 20:33
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Srice posted:Yeah but that feels like she's right more in the stopped clock kind of sense, y'know? (Same in guessing that rape would be handled terribly since it's a fantasy novel; the odds are definitely in your favor on that one) Yeah, I know. I went to that website a few times before and it was completely loving awful. For a long time I thought it was a mentally ill person running that blog.
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Oct 14, 2014 20:39
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fookolt posted:I can't stand that sort of writing in RH and I'm not really interested in whether Tolkien is racist, a defender of Jewish people everywhere, or whatever. But I am far more interested in critically engaging with things I really enjoyed growing up (and still read).
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Oct 14, 2014 20:40
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Cardiovorax posted:Watching and fighting in World War 2 influenced him enormously, on many different levels. Did you mean World War 1? Tolkien was born in 1892, and Mordor is pretty obviously taken from the torn up marshes and battlefields he saw there, but I don't think he did anything in World War 2 (he was 47 when it kicked off, after all). http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/040102_02.html
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Oct 14, 2014 20:52
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ulmont posted:Did you mean World War 1? Tolkien was born in 1892, and Mordor is pretty obviously taken from the torn up marshes and battlefields he saw there, but I don't think he did anything in World War 2 (he was 47 when it kicked off, after all).
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Oct 14, 2014 20:58
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Cardiovorax posted:Tolkien was an avowed pastoralist. His whole conception of the shire is based in a romanticised rural English countryside in which he grew up. That much is true. I would be more circumspect about trying to psychoanalyze him based on how his various races are portrayed, though. The 12-year-long writing process doesn't really allow for simplistic judgments like that. Orcs in particular went through many different iterations both before, during and after the LotR trilogy was written. Watching and fighting in World War 2 influenced him enormously, on many different levels. By his own account he later regretted not having given the orcs more complexity and depth. I'm not talking about psychoanalysis; I'm talking about the culture he grew up in. If World War 1 influenced him enormously, it's very clear that's the case considering how he wrote the Orcs.  Again, I'm not really interested in Tolkien as a person. I'm far more interested in engaging his work (and all the subsequent work that has been deeply influenced by it). fookolt fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Oct 14, 2014 21:40
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fookolt posted:I'm not talking about psychoanalysis; I'm talking about the culture he grew up in. If World War 1 influenced him enormously, it's very clear that's the case considering how he wrote the Orcs.
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Oct 14, 2014 21:51
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I finally finished listening to the audiobook of Brandon Sanderson's Way of Kings. Dude is a technically proficient writer and there were a few small moments where he got an emotional reaction to me and where I was attached to characters - but goddamn that book is stupidly long. More happens in the first Harry Potter than happens in the 400,000 words of this nearly-as-long-as-the-entirety-of-Lord-Of-The-Rings book. I ended up reading a summary of the second book and it sounds like remarkably little happens in that too. (At least anything that isn't immediately undone via magic.) Between that and Miles Cameron's The Red Knight (that I am most of the way through), there is an irritating trend where nameless soldiers/men get wiped out by the dozen but anyone with a name will survive the most lethal experiences imaginable. It really cheapens the lives, takes away from any seriousness of the story and massively lowers the stakes. A better story would make us feel something when those dudes die. I can't tell if it's MORE annoying when it's because the character is the Super Special Chosen One or when it's just blatantly the will of the writer at work.
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Oct 14, 2014 21:58
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Srice posted:I recall she was really mad about R Scott Bakker's stuff at one point and admitted she only read 5 pages of one of his books before putting it down (The book in question was his first, which iirc mentions that a rape happened but doesn't go into any detail? I think that's why she hated it). The way I recall it, acrackedmoon wasn't talking about Bakker's work (which is why she said she'd read very little of it), but about an interview where he'd expressed some decidedly strange views on gender and sexism. Bakker then proceeded to grab the shovel she'd thrown him and start digging for the mantle, revealing himself to be exactly as much of a creepy, biotruthy weirdo as ACM had suggested he was. It's a drat shame about all the horrible poo poo acrackedmoon got up to (the harassment, the bullying, the poison-pen letters), because when she bothered to punch up, she did an excellent job of drawing out the worst elements of the sci-fi/fantasy community for all to see. Unfortunately, she turned out to be another one of those elements herself.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:19
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Darth Walrus posted:The way I recall it, acrackedmoon wasn't talking about Bakker's work (which is why she said she'd read very little of it), but about an interview where he'd expressed some decidedly strange views on gender and sexism. Bakker then proceeded to grab the shovel she'd thrown him and start digging for the mantle, revealing himself to be exactly as much of a creepy, biotruthy weirdo as ACM had suggested he was. Nah, she wrote a scathing review of his book after only reading part of the prologue, all of the other poo poo came after that.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:09
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savinhill posted:Nah, she wrote a scathing review of his book after only reading part of the prologue, all of the other poo poo came after that. No, I remember the article clearly. It was primarily about the interview, with the book only serving to reinforce her argument by observing how Bakker goes for rape as cheap shock value to establish tone in the first five pages. Anyone able to dig it up on archives? EDIT: Ah, got it. Like I said, the book only gets a passing mention - the main thrust of the article is about what a pretentious dick Bakker comes across as in the interview. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Oct 14, 2014 23:34
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neongrey posted:No one here is doing anything of the sort, as far as I am aware. She is getting stalked over this, however, and my understanding of the situation is Is she waiting so it'll be safe for her career before she'll apologise? Because she sure as poo poo hasn't expressed much remorse for her behaviour before. You're following her twitter I'm guessing? I've heard that she's getting stalked, but by who exactly? The people she was once nasty to? Maybe she shouldn't have being a toxic bully who attacked people in the same field that she's trying to break into now. I've heard about the various poo poo she's done over the years and I have no sympathy whatsoever. Everything that's happening to her now, like people trying to 'ruin' her career, she did it to herself with her past behaviour. If the sff community wants to open their arms to accept a vile bully who has an history of attacking both sff authors and fans and who has shown absolutely no signs of acknowledging her past misdeeds or of stopping, well go for it. Just don't be surprised, when she starts turning on her current allies down the road.
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Oct 15, 2014 00:12
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The SF community has had a lot of trouble the past few years (and, really, its entire history) with toxic people. She's right about Bakker tho.
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Oct 15, 2014 00:42
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fritz posted:The SF community has had a lot of trouble the past few years (and, really, its entire history) with toxic people. After reading a little deeper about her, there are waaaaay better examples of her being a toxic piece of poo poo than the Bakker post.
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Oct 15, 2014 01:10
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mania posted:Is she waiting so it'll be safe for her career before she'll apologise? Because she sure as poo poo hasn't expressed much remorse for her behaviour before. No, if I meant her career, I would have said her career. quote:You're following her twitter I'm guessing? I've heard that she's getting stalked, but by who exactly? The people she was once nasty to? Maybe she shouldn't have being a toxic bully who attacked people in the same field that she's trying to break into now. I know who, exactly, and I am under the impression that she is not the stalker's only victim. And maybe two wrongs don't make a right. Maybe if the poo poo she did was wrong, It's still wrong when it happens to her. quote:I've heard about the various poo poo she's done over the years and I have no sympathy whatsoever. [quote] This is rank hypocrisy. If it was wrong when she did it, it is wrong to do it to her. quote:If the sff community wants to open their arms to accept a vile bully who has an history of attacking both sff authors and fans and who has shown absolutely no signs of acknowledging her past misdeeds or of stopping, well go for it. Just don't be surprised, when she starts turning on her current allies down the road. The sff community can't deal with the idea that we should accept Lovecraft was a racist. You can't post in this thread that you don't buy Card or Wright without getting nerds coming out of the woodwork saying that they have done nothing bad enough to warrant individuals choosing not to purchase their books. I am waiting to see what happens when she unprotects. I think regardless of what happens, she is fully entitled to still have a career. That is all.
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Oct 15, 2014 01:14
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TOOT BOOT posted:The Mirror Empire for Kindle is $1.99 today on Amazon. Anyone have a good summary of what makes this book special? All I can find are Amazon and Goodreads reviews which I consider unhelpful, and the summary on Amazon seems a bit generic sounding.
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Oct 15, 2014 01:15
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neongrey posted:The sff community can't deal with the idea that we should accept Lovecraft was a racist. You can't post in this thread that you don't buy Card or Wright without getting nerds coming out of the woodwork saying that they have done nothing bad enough to warrant individuals choosing not to purchase their books. I am waiting to see what happens when she unprotects. I think regardless of what happens, she is fully entitled to still have a career. That is all. Man I am pretty sure that most of the time the opposite happens in this thread. Like I remember a few people legit wanted someone to write up a list of sci-fi/fantasy authors that shouldn't be supported due to terrible views.
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Oct 15, 2014 01:25
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neongrey posted:You can't post in this thread that you don't buy Card or Wright without getting nerds coming out of the woodwork saying that they have done nothing bad enough to warrant individuals choosing not to purchase their books. Uh from what I remember of that discussion that happened like 6 months ago it was mostly about people feeling like they were being called racists or bigots for buying and enjoying those books or being considered supporters of racism or bigotry financially. I don't recall seeing anyone here post anything disparaging to those making a personal decision not to support those authors but I could be wrong I guess. Tiny Timbs fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 01:27
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neongrey posted:The sff community can't deal with the idea that we should accept Lovecraft was a racist. You can't post in this thread that you don't buy Card or Wright without getting nerds coming out of the woodwork saying that they have done nothing bad enough to warrant individuals choosing not to purchase their books. I am waiting to see what happens when she unprotects. I think regardless of what happens, she is fully entitled to still have a career. That is all. I dunno, I think that if the stuff about her trying to sabotage other people's careers with poison-pen letters is legit, some damage to her own career is fair enough. That's not the sort of thing you're supposed to get away with. Ditto if the harassment verged into criminal territory, as some are suggesting it might have. The stalking and death threats are right the gently caress out, though, regardless of the circumstances, and it shouldn't be assumed that anyone going that far is a legitimately aggrieved victim. As mentioned before, she had a real talent for making horrible people demonstrate their horribleness to the world.
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Oct 15, 2014 02:53
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neongrey posted:You can't post in this thread that you don't buy Card or Wright without getting nerds coming out of the woodwork saying that they have done nothing bad enough to warrant individuals choosing not to purchase their books. This is really really not true at all and you're being annoying about this. Anyway, I really liked the 4 or so of her stories that I've read, so go read those.
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Oct 15, 2014 03:12
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ulmont posted:Did you mean World War 1? Tolkien was born in 1892, and Mordor is pretty obviously taken from the torn up marshes and battlefields he saw there, but I don't think he did anything in World War 2 (he was 47 when it kicked off, after all). Cardiovorax being Cardiovorax; Tolkien served in the First World War, and mentions this in the introduction to The Lord of the Rings; the Dead Marshes are an obvious echo of trench warfare. His first stories even mention orcs in tanks, iirc. During the Second World War he was a professor/volunteer fireman. neongrey posted:That's my understanding; I still think he shouldn't have done it but they're still talking amiably afaict so I don't think it's a big deal. Fair enough. neongrey posted:No one here is doing anything of the sort, as far as I am aware. She is getting stalked over this, however, and my understanding of the situation is somewhat other than "she's a jerk who deserves everything that's coming to her". neongrey posted:I know who, exactly, and I am under the impression that she is not the stalker's only victim. And maybe two wrongs don't make a right. Maybe if the poo poo she did was wrong, It's still wrong when it happens to her. Thai sf fandom seems to be a lot bigger than I realised* if someone has started stalking BS in the last few days over something that's only affected English-speaking sf fandom. Also I'm not sure why BS feels it is safe to confirm that she is ROTYH but not apologise, but whatever. *Before today I would have said S. P. Somtow, but Wikipedia also mentions a guy who died in the 60s, so...
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Oct 15, 2014 03:58
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Darth Walrus posted:I dunno, I think that if the stuff about her trying to sabotage other people's careers with poison-pen letters is legit, some damage to her own career is fair enough. That's not the sort of thing you're supposed to get away with. Ditto if the harassment verged into criminal territory, as some are suggesting it might have. She's the one that makes death-threats, as well as wishing that authors she didn't like would have acid thrown in their faces and other assorted heinous poo poo. Anyway, I just finished that City of Stairs book and it was good. I didn't agree with all the hype at first when reading, but that changed once all the mythology and history of the weird & creepy gods came into the story in a large way.
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Oct 15, 2014 07:18
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savinhill posted:She's the one that makes death-threats, as well as wishing that authors she didn't like would have acid thrown in their faces and other assorted heinous poo poo. And people are making 'em right back. In considerable volumes, greater potency, and with actual, physical danger backing 'em up rather than just ranty hyperbole. Remember the poo poo Anita Sarkeesian got for merely being a woman with opinions on the Internet? Now imagine what the associated misogynist scum of the intertubes are up to now they've got a target they can argue is legitimate. It's really not pretty, and not the sort of thing anyone deserves regardless of what they've done. There's no basic human right to make money out of an industry you've tried to sabotage, but there is one to not have to flee for your life after being stalked and swamped with rape and death threats. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 10:36
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neongrey posted:You can't post in this thread that you don't buy Card or Wright without getting nerds coming out of the woodwork saying that they have done nothing bad enough to warrant individuals choosing not to purchase their books. That's really not what people say. People who don't buy their books say 'It is morally bad to buy these books, and you are a bad person if you do so. And even if you torrent it or go to a library to read it, you are still a bad person, too.' I get annoyed at having moral obloquy leveled at me for enjoying a book written by someone with lovely views on race/gender/politics, where those lovely views don't permeate the books. What you're saying is that some people post innocently 'Yeah I won't buy it because of this!' That statement per se would not result in much argument.
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Oct 15, 2014 11:10
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Which books by Gemmel are good? I have read the 2 first books in the Drenai saga and was pretty disappointed by his characters that were pretty archetypic. Storywise the books were OK, but pretty generic. Azathoth posted:As much as I love reading about someone getting their comeuppance for past bad behavior, couldn't find much to disagree with in her post about Bakker. He's a terribly broken individual who thinks he's writing LotR-meets-Lolita, but his reach exceeds his grasp and he ends up with a series that is deeply unsettling for all the wrong reasons. You don't think this is simplifying his writing a lot? It is also one of the few truly original fantasy series that have been published the last 10 years. Can we please avoid this pointless discussion that pops up every 50 pages or so. Also, who gives a gently caress about a lovely blogger that most people haven't even heard of.
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Oct 15, 2014 12:37
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Cardiac posted:
It's significant because she's an up-and-coming fantasy writer as well. Scale-Bright was actually pretty good, and was widely critically acclaimed.
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Oct 15, 2014 13:10
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Darth Walrus posted:It's significant because she's an up-and-coming fantasy writer as well. Scale-Bright was actually pretty good, and was widely critically acclaimed. Googled it, realized it was urban fantasy, and lost any interest in it. Urban fantasy is not my thing. Also quoting Neurosis that sums it up in a good way. Neurosis posted:That's really not what people say. People who don't buy their books say 'It is morally bad to buy these books, and you are a bad person if you do so. And even if you torrent it or go to a library to read it, you are still a bad person, too.' I get annoyed at having moral obloquy leveled at me for enjoying a book written by someone with lovely views on race/gender/politics, where those lovely views don't permeate the books. What you're saying is that some people post innocently 'Yeah I won't buy it because of this!' That statement per se would not result in much argument.
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Oct 15, 2014 13:22
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quote:Also, who gives a gently caress about a lovely blogger that most people haven't even heard of.
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Oct 15, 2014 13:28
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Cardiac posted:Googled it, realized it was urban fantasy, and lost any interest in it. Urban fantasy is not my thing. Only Scale-Bright is urban fantasy. The prequel stories are more Catherynne Valente-style mythological fantasy (which SB has a fair chunk of as well). Regardless of writing quality, though, I can totally get if you don't want to support an author who's engaged in cyberbullying and attempted sabotage of other writers.
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Oct 15, 2014 15:06
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Heck, I've read stuff by authors who have had shittier attitudes. It'd be possible to convince me to give one of her books a shot but the main reason I'm hesitant is simply because I remember all of her complaints and they were more focused on being mad than actually having anything insightful to say. Just seemed like it boiled down to "this element is in this book and this element is bad, therefore book bad" (but in a much angrier way). Or in other words, basically what Hieronymous Alloy said earlier: Hieronymous Alloy posted:I just have a vague memory of that blog having lots of low-hanging-fruit rage performance articles on subjects like "If you like Tolkien, you're a racist, because orcs are black people and dwarves are Jews," or (and maybe I'm remembering this wrong?) how Paolo Bacigalupi's Wind-up Girl was evil cultural appropriation because Bacigalupi isn't of Thai or East Asian origin. If that's the sort of criticism coming out from someone then it doesn't give me any faith about the quality of their stuff!
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Oct 15, 2014 15:16
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Y'all can read whatever you want, but if you give money to people who pay to support racist and homophobic organizations then you have no right to complain when people judge you for it. Nobody's obligated to not care just because you don't.
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Oct 15, 2014 15:20
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Srice posted:Or in other words, basically what Hieronymous Alloy said earlier: As mentioned, her criticism can get a bit more nuanced and intelligent than that beneath all the rage (see all the 'yeah, she was actually kind of right about Bakker' posts in this thread), but it's worth remembering that her acrackedmoon persona was a troll in the classic sense, adopting a provocative, confrontational attitude in order to rile up people and get them to reveal very ugly things about themselves and their assumptions. Slating Tolkein may be low-hanging fruit, but the primary purpose was to see who and what came crawling out of the woodwork to defend his tendencies towards racism and sexism and how they decided to do it.
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Oct 15, 2014 15:23
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Darth Walrus posted:As mentioned, her criticism can get a bit more nuanced and intelligent than that beneath all the rage (see all the 'yeah, she was actually kind of right about Bakker' posts in this thread), but it's worth remembering that her acrackedmoon persona was a troll in the classic sense, adopting a provocative, confrontational attitude in order to rile up people and get them to reveal very ugly things about themselves and their assumptions. Slating Tolkein may be low-hanging fruit, but the primary purpose was to see who and what came crawling out of the woodwork to defend his tendencies towards racism and sexism and how they decided to do it. Eh, when someone spends that much time like that, the "haha I was just trolling" excuse really rings hollow to me. Plus the Bakker stuff was about him as a person and while yeah he's a weird dude, I'm more interested in hearing criticisms about the work itself! I'd be down for seeing any of her criticism that you do think is legit good though! I never saw any from her but heck, I'm open to the possibility. The internet archive saved all her stuff so it shouldn't be too hard to use it to find any.
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Oct 15, 2014 15:43
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I would not be interested in any of the criticism of the blog bullshit so please don't post it. Make a separate thread about it for the three people who are interested.
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Oct 15, 2014 15:46
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systran posted:I would not be interested in any of the criticism of the blog bullshit so please don't post it. Make a separate thread about it for the three people who are interested. OK, what do you want to talk about?
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Oct 15, 2014 15:50
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