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SierraNovember posted:As someone trying to get Into this, what are the preset event decks like? I'm looking at a Khans event deck to accompany my Mardu starter set. Is it worth buying the 2015 core box? Honestly...look at the last 5 pages of the deck building thread, pick 1 that looks fun to you, and play it until you don't make any mistakes. That is how the game works. If you build decks just to build decks then the price point won't really matter because you will get out played. There are all kinds of decks popping up in the deck building thread to toy around with. If you don't want to pay out right away you can download cockatrice and play a deck for free with poo poo heads all over the world. That will atlease give you a feel for a deck before you waste money on it.
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Oct 14, 2014 20:42
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Zemyla posted:Green devotion with black splash is a thing now. Faced it yesterday. Was wrecking face til they kept dropping Whip of Erebos. UGH
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Oct 14, 2014 20:44
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Just draft anyway, who cares. Also, looking at the intro decks I think a couple of them are better than the event deck for power and value. The mardu, jeskai, and abzan ones look kinda fun and with the boosters you could probably get something going with one and make some upgrades to win some games.
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Oct 14, 2014 20:52
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Boco_T posted:Yeah I was gonna post suggesting Sligh as well. If you practice with the deck you can at least get to like a 50% win rate in competitive play. Basic list, based on decks that literally won SCG State Championships this past weekend: How do you pay for Akroan Hoplite with no white sources? Or should that be something else?
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Oct 14, 2014 21:14
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Ask Me For Warez posted:How do you pay for Akroan Hoplite with no white sources? Or should that be something else? Akroan Soldier, most likely. edit: derp, Crusader, the one that MAKES solders. Cactrot fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Oct 14, 2014 21:17
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Its probably Akroan Crusader.
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Oct 14, 2014 21:18
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Akroan Hoplite is almost certainly supposed to be Akroan Crusader, I bet. Edit: phone posting is slow 
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Oct 14, 2014 21:19
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Yeah it's Akroan Crusader, sorry about that.
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Oct 14, 2014 21:20
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The thing about netdecking is that an objective analysis of the cards available in the pool will typically lead to a similar deck. An example of this is the Siege Rhino Abzan deck that just won the Pro Tour - its just a bunch of powerful cards built around playing Siege Rhino (which is obviously powerful by itself). If you were objectively just looking at the cards in G/B/W to curve out in a deck, you'd probably end up with Thoughtseize, Caryatid, Courser, Elspeth, Downfall, etc. anyways. I and many, many others had basically built that deck as a brew as soon as Rhino was spoiled. The real decisions are playing cards like Wingmate Roc, Ajani, Sorin, etc. The good decks in Standard are always "goodstuff" decks in that they find the good cards and find ways to play them. That isn't to say if you see some card you want to play, you can never play it. Its just that you have to find a shell where it will fit and you can compensate for that card not being the best card. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Oct 14, 2014 21:24
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Angry Grimace posted:The good decks in Standard are always "goodstuff" decks in that they find the good cards and find ways to play them. That isn't to say if you see some card you want to play, you can never play it. Its just that you have to find a shell where it will fit and you can compensate for that card not being the best card. That's not what being a good stuff deck means. On the other hand, if you're saying the cards are good because they're played in decks that win then that's a complete tautology and your statement is trivial.
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Oct 14, 2014 21:26
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Zoness posted:That's not what being a good stuff deck means. On the other hand, if you're saying the cards are good because they're played in decks that win then that's a complete tautology and your statement is trivial. Playing the "good cards" in specific colors and strategy typically leads to the same shell of cards because there are only so many objectively good cards in a format. The point is about netdecking and why isn't really a big deal. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Oct 14, 2014 21:29
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Maybe I've been unlucky or just drafting like poo poo, but KTK drafting just hasn't worked out for me lately. I can find sweet bombs pack 1 and 2 only to never see them and get overrun by the one guy who got four Mystics of the Hidden Way (none of which went past me), or draft an aggressive deck and lose match 1 to the one guy who decided to draft a million walls because all my removal has sublimated to the bottom of the deck somehow. Maybe I just need to reconsider my picks. Any suggestions here? I'm tired of getting 20 minutes of playtime out of my tickets. If it were me, I would play Swiss until I had a better feel for the format.
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Oct 14, 2014 21:31
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Zoness posted:That's not what being a good stuff deck means. On the other hand, if you're saying the cards are good because they're played in decks that win then that's a complete tautology and your statement is trivial. This. A "goodstuff" deck is a deck that plays a bunch of high power cards with little regard to synergies between them. They have a tendency towards 3-plus colors. Ari Lax's Abzan deck from PT:Khans of Tarkir is a good example of a "goodstuff" deck: Planeswalker (7) 2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor 2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes 3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion Creature (16) 2 Elvish Mystic 4 Sylvan Caryatid 4 Courser of Kruphix 2 Wingmate Roc 4 Siege Rhino Sorcery (4) 4 Thoughtseize Instant (9) 4 Abzan Charm 3 Hero's Downfall 2 Utter End Land (24) 3 Forest 2 Plains 4 Windswept Heath 4 Temple of Malady 4 Sandsteppe Citadel 2 Llanowar Wastes 2 Caves of Koilos 1 Mana Confluence 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth 1 Temple of Silence This deck is full of powerful individual cards capable of dominating a board on their own or with little support. Each card's effect is powerful independent of the other cards in the deck. Contrast this with Lee Shi Tian's Jeskai Ascendancy deck: Planeswalker (1) 1 Nissa, Worldwaker Creature (11) 3 Kiora's Follower 4 Rattleclaw Mystic 4 Sylvan Caryatid Sorcery (9) 4 Commune with the Gods 3 Tormenting Voice 2 Twinflame Instant (7) 4 Retraction Helix 3 Dig Through Time Artifact (2) 2 Briber's Purse Enchantment (8) 4 Dragon Mantle 4 Jeskai Ascendancy Land (22) 4 Mana Confluence 2 Frontier Bivouac 2 Temple of Abandon 2 Temple of Mystery 2 Temple of Plenty 2 Yavimaya Coast 2 Wooded Foothills 2 Flooded Strand 1 Mountain 1 Forest 1 Island 1 Plains In this deck, everything hinges on getting a few key cards together to have a game altering effect. These cards, though good, are more powerful contextually with the assistance of other cards in the deck. Some of the cards in the deck, like Briber's purse, are almost useless outside of this shell.
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Oct 14, 2014 21:36
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e: ^^^ an all-in combo deck is an extreme example of the opposite, though. Ascendancy storm isn't remotely interested in playing the same game of Magic as any other deck. It does a shitload of nothing until suddenly the opponent is dead. Goodstuff decks are way more common early in the format because they're by far the most obvious builds to begin with. Sometimes they'll remain a dominant force for the entire standard (Inn-RTR Jund) or fall out of favor for synergistic decks (Scars-Inn Delver, Pod)
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Oct 14, 2014 21:38
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I heard a quote that WOTC added the "untap" clause to Jeskai Ascendancy because it was "too boring" otherwise? Was that something they said during the PT broadcast?
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Oct 14, 2014 21:49
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En Fuego posted:Faced it yesterday. Was wrecking face til they kept dropping Whip of Erebos. UGH Do you remember how many black sources they were running? 4 of each Caryatid/Llanowar Wastes/Temples and a Tomb of Yawgmoth seem like a decent enough chance to get double black by turn 6 or so. Plus, you can just cheat it out with Genesis Hydra which is baller.
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Oct 14, 2014 21:49
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AlternateNu posted:Do you remember how many black sources they were running? 4 of each Caryatid/Llanowar Wastes/Temples and a Tomb of Yawgmoth seem like a decent enough chance to get double black by turn 6 or so. Plus, you can just cheat it out with Genesis Hydra which is baller. I lost a match to this very scenario earlier today.  Whip of Erebos is a truly obnoxious card in basically any deck that runs it.
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Oct 14, 2014 21:56
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Goodstuff is just a synonym for midrange
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Oct 14, 2014 22:00
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Angry Grimace posted:The thing about netdecking is that an objective analysis of the cards available in the pool will typically lead to a similar deck. An example of this is the Siege Rhino Abzan deck that just won the Pro Tour - its just a bunch of powerful cards built around playing Siege Rhino (which is obviously powerful by itself). If you were objectively just looking at the cards in G/B/W to curve out in a deck, you'd probably end up with Thoughtseize, Caryatid, Courser, Elspeth, Downfall, etc. anyways. I and many, many others had basically built that deck as a brew as soon as Rhino was spoiled. The real decisions are playing cards like Wingmate Roc, Ajani, Sorin, etc. Yeah, I mean look at the brewhaus thread a few weeks back, people were messing with Caryatid / Courser / Siege Rhino / Hero's Downfall decks all over. Lots of flailing around trying to figure out what specific package of removal, other creatures, and planeswalkers best fit into that shell, and debates over whether Sorin or Wingmate Roc or Nissa are actually good in the deck, but it was very obvious that there was a deck there. Now that a pro figured out a good refinement of the list and won a pro tour with it it's a "netdeck".
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Oct 14, 2014 22:04
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netcat posted:Goodstuff is just a synonym for midrange  the last time a midrange deck wasn't just a pile was when blood braid existed and only then was it a mild consideration. You could make the case that angel-thragtusk was an engine/synergy deck I guess.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:05
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Entropic posted:Yeah, I mean look at the brewhaus thread a few weeks back, people were messing with Caryatid / Courser / Siege Rhino / Hero's Downfall decks all over. Lots of flailing around trying to figure out what specific package of removal, other creatures, and planeswalkers best fit into that shell, and debates over whether Sorin or Wingmate Roc or Nissa are actually good in the deck, but it was very obvious that there was a deck there. Now that a pro figured out a good refinement of the list and won a pro tour with it it's a "netdeck". Netdeck, noun: Any deck that's good enough to win events
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Oct 14, 2014 22:09
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Chill la Chill posted:
I mean, it really doesn't get "better" in terms of value than free spells or powerful 187 effects on efficient bodies. BBE Jund in standard was kind of weird in that it got so inbred into the Jund mirror match interactions that people started jamming borderland rangers and mind rots despite those not being strong cards individually. The synonymity tends to derive from midrange mostly being relevant when the cards are better than synergistic alternatives. I'd argue B/x devotion lists were midrange strategies that didn't run on -just- Good Stuff (since Pack Rat let you turn your conditional cards into Good Stuff), but that's probably stretching the definition of midrange by quite a bit. This is mostly in contrast to mono-U devotion which ran all sorts of dregs and were definitely not midrange, being the epitome of linear deck in the previous standard, in contrast to burn occupying the aggro angle, and in contrast to U/W/x sitting on the control role.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:15
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Yeah, I muddied the waters by using the term "good stuff" there, but what I'm saying is that in Standard there isn't a ton of meaningful choice over the shell cards in a specific strategy. If I told you guys to build Mono-Black Aggro and I said "NO NETDECKING" my guess is most of the resulting decks would be very similar decks.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:19
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Angry Grimace posted:The good decks in Standard are always "goodstuff" decks in that they find the good cards and find ways to play them. That isn't to say if you see some card you want to play, you can never play it. Its just that you have to find a shell where it will fit and you can compensate for that card not being the best card. That's why I loved Mono-U so much last Standard. It wasn't just a goodstuff deck, it was basically two potentially insane cards and the rest was just about maximizing their potential. The deck felt like the "underdog sports team" deck of Standard. Would love to see another synergy style deck emerge this season.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:33
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qbert posted:That's why I loved Mono-U so much last Standard. It wasn't just a goodstuff deck, it was basically two potentially insane cards and the rest was just about maximizing their potential. The deck felt like the "underdog sports team" deck of Standard. Would love to see another synergy style deck emerge this season. Ascendancy Combo 
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Oct 14, 2014 22:39
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If they were in the same colors I would play siege rhino and Quickling together all day for troll value and sweet synergy. Then again, so would everyone. Unironically. 
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Oct 14, 2014 22:39
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qbert posted:That's why I loved Mono-U so much last Standard. It wasn't just a goodstuff deck, it was basically two potentially insane cards and the rest was just about maximizing their potential. The deck felt like the "underdog sports team" deck of Standard. Would love to see another synergy style deck emerge this season. Every time someone says they want to play a synergy deck like that, I recommend Robits or its fraternal twin Azorius Soulblade. The deck has a couple very good cards, lots of cards that are only good in the context of the deck, and a way to repeatably exchange control of permanents with your opponent. If you want to steal Coursers and Gods from your opponent in exchange for auras that don't care who controls them, that is the deck for you.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:39
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e: dp
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Oct 14, 2014 22:48
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Chill la Chill posted:If they were in the same colors I would play siege rhino and Quickling together all day for troll value and sweet synergy. Next Level Blue 2
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Oct 14, 2014 22:50
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Entropic posted:Yeah, I mean look at the brewhaus thread a few weeks back, people were messing with Caryatid / Courser / Siege Rhino / Hero's Downfall decks all over. Lots of flailing around trying to figure out what specific package of removal, other creatures, and planeswalkers best fit into that shell, and debates over whether Sorin or Wingmate Roc or Nissa are actually good in the deck, but it was very obvious that there was a deck there. Now that a pro figured out a good refinement of the list and won a pro tour with it it's a "netdeck".
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Oct 14, 2014 22:53
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qbert posted:That's why I loved Mono-U so much last Standard. It wasn't just a goodstuff deck, it was basically two potentially insane cards and the rest was just about maximizing their potential. The deck felt like the "underdog sports team" deck of Standard. Would love to see another synergy style deck emerge this season. I think something like Junk Aristocrats is a better example of a deck where each individual card is incredibly weak, but when put together with a dash of pilot skill they do amazing things. What's missing is text on creatures that cares about other creatures. Until Rhino we haven't even had many relevant ETB triggers around, except maybe Gray Merchant. There just aren't any abilities that offer much opportunity for synergy anymore, the cards are designed to be stand-alone lately. The best we have that I can see are those creatures that grant abilities for counters, we just don't have creatures like Blood Artist or Restoration Angel anymore.
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Oct 14, 2014 22:57
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BaronVonVaderham posted:What's missing is text on creatures that cares about other creatures. Until Rhino we haven't even had many relevant ETB triggers around, except maybe Gray Merchant. There just aren't any abilities that offer much opportunity for synergy anymore, the cards are designed to be stand-alone lately. The best we have that I can see are those creatures that grant abilities for counters, we just don't have creatures like Blood Artist or Restoration Angel anymore. The obvious answer is to reprint Flametongue Kavu.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:20
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suicidesteve posted:The obvious answer is to reprint Flametongue Kavu. Maro gets asked about this a lot and the answer is always "basically no chance."
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Oct 14, 2014 23:22
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suicidesteve posted:The obvious answer is to reprint Flametongue Kavu. But that's a card that's simply good, with no respect for synergy. Something like Blood Artist, that's only good in one kind of deck but extremely good when it is, is a better example.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:28
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Ah this old chestnut, the netdeck. A shameful deck. Anyone who needs to netdeck to beat me is not playing by my rules, and thus I am undefeated at MTG. Soon I will die.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:29
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AATREK CURES KIDS posted:But that's a card that's simply good, with no respect for synergy. Something like Blood Artist, that's only good in one kind of deck but extremely good when it is, is a better example. Reprint it with Resto Angel.  Angry Grimace posted:Maro gets asked about this a lot and the answer is always "basically no chance." And it probably should be, disappointing as that may be. The card is vintage playable and it's one of the best 2-for-1s ever printed.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:34
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rabidsquid posted:Ah this old chestnut, the netdeck. A shameful deck. Anyone who needs to netdeck to beat me is not playing by my rules, and thus I am undefeated at MTG. Soon I will die. The funny part is only people who are bad at deck building make these complaints. Good deck builders end up building a deck that could/does win events and obviously they "netdeck" it is impossible to independently create a powerful deck only bad ones.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:34
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Someone who complains about the very idea of netdecking has no clue what collaboration goes into any successful Magic deck. The eternal thread credits me with inventing Breakfast Burrito, but there was tons of work put in by Oldsrocket, and a bunch of other goons who suggested we test certain cards or did the math for some matchups.
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Oct 14, 2014 23:35
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rabidsquid posted:Ah this old chestnut, the netdeck. A shameful deck. Anyone who needs to netdeck to beat me is not playing by my rules, and thus I am undefeated at MTG. Soon I will die. All you are doing by refusing to net deck is dismiss the absolutely INSANE hours of brewing and perfecting the list as well as all the time people spend verifying the list as good/wins FNM. it's like building your own car to get to work and go food shopping instead of buying a Honda. Yes you will have made it yourself and can take personal pride in your victories but do you really think you can build a better civic than Honda? On your first try building a car? I can see the appeal of the DIY route but I will still always look at you like that idiot in the produce isle who is convinced that if they grind up enough kale, ginko biloba, and beet root they have something that's just as good as a flu shot from your Doc. And like AATrek said, almost never is a deck the pure brainchild of one player, it takes a village to brew a good deck. PleasantDirge fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Oct 14, 2014 23:42
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AATREK CURES KIDS posted:Someone who complains about the very idea of netdecking has no clue what collaboration goes into any successful Magic deck. The eternal thread credits me with inventing Breakfast Burrito, but there was tons of work put in by Oldsrocket, and a bunch of other goons who suggested we test certain cards or did the math for some matchups. I'm pretty sure that any reasonable definition of netdecking gives a pass to the people who actually collaborated on the deck, or at least on their own distinct variant. (People might still accuse you of it in ignorance, of course.) The point is that you're not going to convince me that your average dude at FNM last year brewed and tested mono-black devotion by himself. I think that actually blaming people who "netdeck" goes overboard a lot of the time, but not inexplicably so. The people who borrow decklists from the internet are a convenient scapegoat for people's (valid, understandable) frustrations with the very easily and quickly 'solved' nature of current Magic metagames in general.
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