|
I'm sorry you don't see a t-shirt stretch goal or goblin miniature with painted butthole as a financial investment.
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2014 18:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 22:43 |
|
|
NGDBSS posted:I'm guessing this is a joke regarding GMS? It's pretty much the go-to excuse used by every kickstarter that's late or doesn't deliver.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2014 18:59
|
|
|
Kickstarter backers are not investors. They may be donors or customers, but a Kickstarter is not an investment.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2014 20:14
|
|
|
NGDBSS posted:I'm guessing this is a joke regarding GMS? If it was a GMS quote he'd say they aren't Customers and thus doesn't owe them anything.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2014 20:20
|
|
|
Evil Mastermind posted:It's pretty much the go-to excuse used by every kickstarter that's late or doesn't deliver. I thought the standard asshat argument was the opposite - that since kickstarter backers aren't customers, but investors, they shouldn't expect a return on their investment. This is because investing doesn't necessarily imply a return, whereas being customer does, or so the "logic" goes. Gareth Michael-Skarka posted:He’s not a customer. Period. Here’s the thing: _There are no customers for FAR WEST yet._ There are backers, which is not the same as a customer — that’s somebody who has invested money to back a process (of which there are 717, and he isn’t one), each of whom is receiving some amount of stock of various products in the line in return for their investment. Kickstarter is very clear about this. This is not a consumer process.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2014 20:25
|
|
|
Alien Rope Burn posted:I thought the standard asshat argument was the opposite - that since kickstarter backers aren't customers, but investors, they shouldn't expect a return on their investment. This is because investing doesn't necessarily imply a return, whereas being customer does, or so the "logic" goes. Both see use, really. Ultimately it's the person saying "just because people gave me TOTALMONEYS to produce THING by DATE doesn't mean I owe them anything".
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2014 20:42
|
|
|
Kickstarter backers are gamblers. You put down your money in the hopes that you win fabulous prizes but you're just as likely to go bust with nothing to show for it, and whatever else happens the house (Kickstarter, in this tortured analogy) always wins.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2014 20:44
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:Kickstarter backers are gamblers. You put down your money in the hopes that you win fabulous prizes but you're just as likely to go bust with nothing to show for it, and whatever else happens the house (Kickstarter, in this tortured analogy) always wins. What's worse is that they think they are creating an environment where the products are improving a market lacking good products and services. In fact, many many many funded products are just mediocre or bad, but there isn't much of a way to know during the funding process. At least with traditional forms of investment and venture capital there are contracts and expectations that products meet certain quality standards, deadlines, sales etc.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2014 21:02
|
|
|
XyrlocShammypants posted:What's worse is that they think they are creating an environment where the products are improving a market lacking good products and services. In fact, many many many funded products are just mediocre or bad, but there isn't much of a way to know during the funding process. At least with traditional forms of investment and venture capital there are contracts and expectations that products meet certain quality standards, deadlines, sales etc. Nah, when dealing with the tabletop games market (and others besides) traditional forms of product creation are no more guaranteed to create something that isn't mediocre or bad. Plenty of lovely tradgames existed before Kickstarter was a gleam in some heartbreaker creator's eye and plenty more will continue to exist outside of it, and being traditionally funded is no more a guarantee of quality standards, meeting deadlines, or any other expectations. The issue with Kickstarter isn't "the products people are making are bad," the issue is that Kickstarter makes it very, very easy for people with no business sense or experience to make a lot of money with a very appealing sounding pitch and suddenly find themselves in over their heads, i.e. wow look at all this money I raised, taxes, what are those? Production cost overruns? Shipping costs just went up?
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2014 21:13
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:Nah, when dealing with the tabletop games market (and others besides) traditional forms of product creation are no more guaranteed to create something that isn't mediocre or bad. Plenty of lovely tradgames existed before Kickstarter was a gleam in some heartbreaker creator's eye and plenty more will continue to exist outside of it, and being traditionally funded is no more a guarantee of quality standards, meeting deadlines, or any other expectations. True, but the development of a game follows some publishers standards, so I know if I buy a FFG board game it will be of some quality. If I buy a game from Asmodee it will be of some quality. My biggest beef with Kickstarter isn't failed kickstarters but 'changes' made along the way, sometimes drastic changes. This is more likely with technology based products, but I have seen it with board games as well. Yes, you can cancel your order if the changes are unacceptable but it leaves an unsavory taste in my mouth.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2014 21:28
|
|
|
XyrlocShammypants posted:True, but the development of a game follows some publishers standards, so I know if I buy a FFG board game it will be of some quality. If I buy a game from Asmodee it will be of some quality. My biggest beef with Kickstarter isn't failed kickstarters but 'changes' made along the way, sometimes drastic changes. This is more likely with technology based products, but I have seen it with board games as well. Yes, you can cancel your order if the changes are unacceptable but it leaves an unsavory taste in my mouth. This still isn't really a significant difference between Kickstarting and regular publishing in terms of quality output though. If I preorder something from, say, Palladium games then there's a good chance I'm throwing my money away, and even if I just pay for something of theirs that's already released then odds are it's a bunch of copy-pasted stuff and rules that don't work. Meanwhile if Greg Stolze Kickstarts something then I can put money down on that in full confidence that barring a natural disaster or truly unfortunate set of events he'll deliver. In either case determining who's worth your money and who isn't is a combination of personal experience, word of mouth, and trial and error. Kickstarter does mean that you have a lot more "this is our first published product ever!" startups going on so you, the customer, have less information to work on when making your informed decision, but that's still no different than if they were going through a more traditional production route because you'd still be taking a chance when you bought their game. The big difference isn't "will this be good?" so much as "will this person actually get their game together?" which is an entirely separate, and entirely valid, issue beyond quality control. The mid-stream changes thing isn't something I've had a lot of personal experience with so I can't really speak to it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2014 21:39
|
|
|
One of the first boardgames I ever bought was Drakon 3rd Edition from FFG, and the quality of the... Not sure what to call it, the border-thing(?) holding the tiles was so shoddy that by taking out the tiles normally I damaged 3 of them. I had to find a special trick to take them out with no noticeable damage to them. The weirdest thing is that the border-thing on the different tokens in the game was done like it's normally done, so none of those were harmed while unpacking the stuff. So yeah, buying from established companies isn't always such an assurance on even component quality.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2014 14:08
|
|
|
edit: Nevermind again, I can't see myself actually playing Yashima
signalnoise fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Oct 14, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2014 14:19
|
|
|
ThaShaneTrain posted:I would like a lined tray to roll dice in. A cup is a bunch of unnecessary movements to do the same thing as rolling by hand, I have one I really like but I never have a reason to really use it unless I played on a TV tray. Just rewinding, but we found a dice tray to be pretty much necessary for our FF Star Wars RPG group.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2014 15:33
|
|
|
Speaking of Kickstarters that probably weren't planned well in advance-Shadows of Brimstone, Flying Frog Productions posted:ROW Shipping
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 00:56
|
|
|
Do people making kick starters just hope that people outside the US don't back it? Also how's Palladium's Robotech game coming along? Been ages since I heard anything about it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 01:22
|
|
|
No clue. Their last update was on the 3rd and pretty much read as "Hey, were're totally shipping stuff starting today. See? 200 boxes ready to be picked up." I would not be surprised if they're still sitting there.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 01:33
|
|
|
My current Kickstarter, Boiling Point, just went over 100%, so I've posted stretch goals for it: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rosspayton/boiling-point-a-superheroic-adventure/posts/1017961 Only 5 days left!
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 02:33
|
|
|
Cassa posted:Do people making kick starters just hope that people outside the US don't back it? Somebody I work with got their core set, but apparently he's still waiting on all of the extra stuff he ordered.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 03:48
|
|
|
Cassa posted:Do people making kick starters just hope that people outside the US don't back it? It sort of cuts both ways. I would back a lot more stuff, except by the time you add shipping and run the currency conversion it can take a things from "neat impulse purchase" to "more than one weeks (responsible) disposable income", with no guarantee you'll ever see anything for your money.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 03:53
|
|
|
Cassa posted:Also how's Palladium's Robotech game coming along? Been ages since I heard anything about it. They're getting shipping crates in one at a time. They're supposed to be shipping wave one - which is most of the core box, minus special characters, some units, and none of the later extras or stretches - to people either in order of their backer number, or backer kit number, but so far nobody outside the continental USA has received it, and "by the numbers" is apparently not what is happening. Not expecting to see any of mine before 2015. It's still the greatest thing ever though and has had few problems or complaints, says Kevin. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Oct 15, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 05:42
|
|
|
Actually, they're shipping in batches of "these are packed the same." And the smaller orders are going out before the large ones.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 06:06
|
|
|
SpikeMcclane posted:Actually, they're shipping in batches of "these are packed the same." And the smaller orders are going out before the large ones. They're all packed the same, because all they have are the core Battle Cry boxes with 2/3 of the minis that are supposed to be in them, and all the pledge levels were just multiples of that box. The smaller orders are the people who only backed for one battle cry, of which there are many, and they seem to be doing America first in an order that is neither backer number nor backet kit number like originally promised.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 06:49
|
|
|
Yeah. Palladium really needed to rely on a fulfillment service - they're just from all appearances not equipped for this, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. They're begging for volunteers in exchange for product and offering to let people pick copies up from their office. And this isn't even a third of the material they have to ship. I feel bad for Palladium employees in the upcoming months, this is going to be a nightmare. They say they'll have the first shipments out by the end of the month - and since it's Wayne Smith saying that and not Kevin, it might actually be accurate - but add the usual Kickstarter shipment drama (failed shipments, product issues, etc.) on top of all this and it's just shaping up to be quite the mess. I have to wonder with all the finger-pointing by Kevin if Ninja Division are going to be keen to keep working with Palladium on future projects. What, no Southern Cross kickstarter already? 
Alien Rope Burn fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Oct 15, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 08:20
|
|
|
Vye is on its last days. It looks like it would be fun and the style is really cool. The thing that gets me is the whole "your name on the card" thing that I was hoping would die down in the TG kickstarter world. It is kind of stupid that it is a big deal to me but I don't want random rear end peoples names to be on the cards of a game I may be playing many years later. Worse still they say that it will be on every copy made through the Kickstarter and they may not do any runs beyond it. Years from now I will be playing the game with my theoretical children and they will say "Why is this name here poppa? It has nothing to do with the mechanisms, art, theme, or style of this game." and I will have to tell them a tale of how a game would not have been funded if it weren't for Biff Hardcheese.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 14:31
|
|
|
Alien Rope Burn posted:Yeah. Palladium really needed to rely on a fulfillment service - they're just from all appearances not equipped for this, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. They're begging for volunteers in exchange for product and offering to let people pick copies up from their office. And this isn't even a third of the material they have to ship. I wish I could find it, but I'm pretty sure at one point Kevin was blaming Ninja Division for being late because ND was working on multiple projects, some of which weren't Palladuim's. You know, Kev, some companies are capable of working on two projects at the same time. In fact, some can even do three or four! 
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 14:51
|
|
|
ThaShaneTrain posted:Vye is on its last days. It looks like it would be fun and the style is really cool.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 15:07
|
|
|
Just got my copy of the Convicted. Anyone manage to table it yet?
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2014 03:07
|
|
|
ThaShaneTrain posted:Vye is on its last days. It looks like it would be fun and the style is really cool. The thing that gets me is the whole "your name on the card" thing that I was hoping would die down in the TG kickstarter world. It is kind of stupid that it is a big deal to me but I don't want random rear end peoples names to be on the cards of a game I may be playing many years later. Worse still they say that it will be on every copy made through the Kickstarter and they may not do any runs beyond it. As cool as this game's art is, that gameplay looks anemic. Like my god does that sound stupid simple.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2014 03:12
|
|
|
GrandpaPants posted:As cool as this game's art is, that gameplay looks anemic. Like my god does that sound stupid simple. That's what some people want. I didn't back it for the same reason though, I already have super-entry-level card games.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2014 03:30
|
|
|
I'm putting the finishing touches to the Kickstarter for Legacy, my civilisation-rebuilding Apocalypse World hack. There's a preview page here - if any of you have feedback on the page, I'd be very grateful! The kickstarter's mostly for art and layout, as the game's completely written (barring any edits that might arise from backer feedback) and all backers will have access to the raw text as soon as they back the game. It's my first kickstarter so there may be a few rough edges, although I've tried to learn from the successful TG kickstarters of the past.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2014 15:27
|
|
|
Flavivirus posted:I'm putting the finishing touches to the Kickstarter for Legacy, my civilisation-rebuilding Apocalypse World hack. There's a preview page here - if any of you have feedback on the page, I'd be very grateful! It looks pretty solid, did a good job of telling me what the game was about and why I might be interested in it. You said it's been in play testing for a year, do you have any play test sessions recorded or logged that might give a good idea of what play looks like? Maybe even just an example of how the world building tools or different scales work could go a long way towards showing what Legacy does that other games don't do out of the box.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2014 17:09
|
|
|
Misandu posted:It looks pretty solid, did a good job of telling me what the game was about and why I might be interested in it. You said it's been in play testing for a year, do you have any play test sessions recorded or logged that might give a good idea of what play looks like? Maybe even just an example of how the world building tools or different scales work could go a long way towards showing what Legacy does that other games don't do out of the box. Hmm... most of the playtesting was recorded in the form of people sending me reports after trying it out, but I do have a few sessions recorded on a dictaphone. I'll start transcribing some sections of those, but I might also reaching out to some of the RPG actual play podcast people.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2014 17:34
|
|
|
Got my copy of Xia: Legends of a Drift System today! I'll work on getting some pictures soon, because the game is really pretty and game out looking awesome.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2014 21:45
|
|
|
I got mine a few days ago. The box and card art, as well as the little spaceship models are pretty fantastic. I can't wait to try it, it looks like a fun game.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2014 22:49
|
|
|
Yeah, mine just showed up today. I'm looking forward to playing it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2014 00:43
|
|
|
Flavivirus posted:I'm putting the finishing touches to the Kickstarter for Legacy, my civilisation-rebuilding Apocalypse World hack. There's a preview page here - if any of you have feedback on the page, I'd be very grateful! Well written, nice concept art, good theme, reasonable goals, understandable risks. What the gently caress is wrong with you?  I really have no interest in kick starting RPGs usually because they just sit on a shelf, but your theme and description really intrigues me. Plus you mention A Canticle For Leibowitz"  Definitely let us know when you pull the trigger.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2014 00:59
|
|
|
So, buddy of mine (Ed Healy) linked me to a Kickstarter, Flat Plastic Miniatures by Arcknight. It's basically pieces of flat plastic with front-and-back pictures of characters and monsters for use in RPGs. They're running twenty bucks for sixty two, with a package deal. I dunno if I'm gonna back, but I could see it being useful, especially for stuff you're less likely to have a miniature for. I'd be more tempted if they unlocked some non-fantasy sets, to be honest, but that's because I've already got a crapton of fantasy minis. EDIT: Pay no attention to the editing behind the curtain! JackMann fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Oct 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2014 06:28
|
|
|
JackMann posted:So, buddy of mine (Ed Healy) linked me to a Kickstarter, Flat Plastic Miniatures by Arcknight. It's basically pieces of flat plastic with front-and-back pictures of characters and monsters for use in RPGs. They're running twenty bucks for sixty two, with a package deal. I dunno if I'm gonna back, but I could see it being useful, especially for stuff you're less likely to have a miniature for. Your link, while interesting, isn't to what you think it's to.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2014 06:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 22:43 |
|
|
...Goddammit. Had a bit of setting fluff I was showing off. Link should be fixed now.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2014 06:56
|
|