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Jokin' about me are you >: (
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Oct 14, 2014 07:03
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Leif. posted::itisastudionamejoke: That should be a thing.
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Oct 14, 2014 07:21
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In my opinion, the best overall in-game tutorial example is the first Portal. The lessons and how-tos are never removed from the context of the world you're in and the story you're a part of and each tutorial "lesson" produces genuine "aha" moments and fun. They also excellently employ humor and story to frame and disguise the fact that the game is teaching you its mechanics. Then again, the entire first half of the game is built around scientific experiments so it was kind of built just for that. In my opinion, the best single tutorial in any game is in Half-Life 2: the "Pick up that can" moment. Once again, they never break context. The entire tutorial moment takes place within the storyline and it even serves to help elegantly establish the setting. It's a gate that we all understand (this bully is being a bully) and it instantly teaches you what was one of the main new tenets of fps gaming: physics object manipulation which is used throughout the entire game. Finally, even the ui reinforces the kinesthetic nature of the learning (learn by doing, not learn by being told); the ui prompt doesn't say "Press E to interact with objects in the world!" it simply says "Press E to pick up the can". They even included a in-character way for a player to DISOBEY the tutorial and not be fatally punished for it, as well as 2 separate trash cans that both satisfy the 'win' condition. mutata fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Oct 14, 2014 07:29
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mutata posted:the "Pick up that can" moment. 
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Oct 14, 2014 15:39
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OneEightHundred posted:But... you're literally being told to do it. Again, context is everything. You're not being told that E is the keyboard key that picks up physics objects, you're being bullied by a crooked cop in a totalitarian regime. The game tells you to pick up the can, the player draws the connection to the game mechanic in their own minds. The next time the player sees a physics object, they make that connection for themselves and experiment with the E key and the lesson is confirmed. No where in the system does the game tell you that E manipulates physics objects and that that's a main theme of the game. All that happens is the player plays through a story moment and makes those connections for themselves.
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Oct 14, 2014 16:36
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I think the most interesting part of the soda can event is that beginner players do in fact learn something, and experienced players get a fun scenario where they can see how far they can push the guard before getting the poo poo kicked out of them. It's a situation where you can experiment and this disguises the education aspect.
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Oct 14, 2014 16:44
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It's good considering that there really isn't a way to teach the player the game without, at some point, saying "press E." It's not like a console game where every button has a function. You have to tell the player what buttons do things, as most of the buttons are dead. I could imagine a console game where the guard says "pick up that can" without an on-screen prompt and it wouldn't take long for the player to look at the can and press A.
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Oct 14, 2014 17:02
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Sigma-X posted:How many designers can a school project really have? Sure! I'm at Columbia College Chicago. Our game development program consists of design, art, programming and sound concentrations. Programming was recently made a BS degree, and the others remain BA. We have a variety of classes for each major where there's a little bit of collaboration. The beat example I can think of is Intro to Game Development, where there are usually a few artists sprinkled in to do some assets. In 2nd Semester of Junior year, we (designers) take Game Development Process. The first half is kind of a crash course in Waterfall, Scrum and Agile, and the second half divides the class into Indie and Large team. The indie teams go off and learn about the McCarthy protocols (I did that capstone last year, which rules) and begin to form teams and brainstorm ideas. The large team designers begin by writing short pitches. The ideas all get voted on, them everyone is required to write a pitch for their three favorite ideas. By then we have a slew of mechanics and ideas, and begin writing full pitch documents. When we've got three left, there's some finalization and the games get pitched to all the concentrations in an assembly. There's a blind vote and the most popular game is the project for the next year. Lead selection is kind of a popularity contest, but it really worked out this year. I just kind of took the reigns from day one and when it got time to choose design lead, no one else really wanted to take it. The artists voted for their lead, our programming lead just kind of stepped forward since no one else wanted the position, and I'm not really sure how the sound team did it. The selection process changes every year, and I think last year it was kind of a "pitch yourself to the class" thing. So now we need a working build by the end of the semester to give us ample polish time before GDC. So far so good.  e: We have 10 designers on our 33-person team. One is me, and 2 have been co-opted by programming because, frankly, they're really good at it. So we technically have 7 designers actively doing design stuff. Then 2 of them do level design and one is almost entirely documentation, so we've got 4 people actively prototyping and implementing mechanics until the programming team goes in and rewrites stuff to make it cleaner. Chunderstorm fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Oct 14, 2014 17:11
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mutata posted:Again, context is everything. You're not being told that E is the keyboard key that picks up physics objects, you're being bullied by a crooked cop in a totalitarian regime. The game tells you to pick up the can, the player draws the connection to the game mechanic in their own minds. The next time the player sees a physics object, they make that connection for themselves and experiment with the E key and the lesson is confirmed. OneEightHundred fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 02:52
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OneEightHundred posted:I guess. I think continuity is more important, and HL2's introductory parts absolutely felt like an intro segment: Much slower than the majority of game, pretty much completely linear, and idiotproof. I don't think it compared well to something like God of War, which had basically no break in continuity, or Deus Ex where the intro section had enough depth to be interesting on a repeat play. God of War 3 was pretty amazing, because its tutorial is one of the most dynamic, exciting parts of the whole game.
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Oct 15, 2014 02:56
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OneEightHundred posted:I guess. I think continuity is more important, and HL2's introductory parts absolutely felt like an intro segment: Much slower than the majority of game, pretty much completely linear, and idiotproof. I don't think it compared well to something like God of War, which had basically no break in continuity, or Deus Ex where the intro section had enough depth to be interesting on a repeat play. I've never played God of War, so I can't comment. I don't mind a tutorial being idiotproof and I certainly don't mind it being linear. In fact I think that's fine unless it's done half-assed. It's the elegance of the integration into the mood and story where I think HL2's shines. Unlike Portal, you realize that it's teaching you some things, but it's all also supporting the establishment of the setting and environment so you don't really care. HalfLife 1's slow intro remains one of my favorite gaming moments ever, so HL2's didn't bother me. Speaking of which, I think HL1's Hazard Course was another great example of a good tutorial section: It's its own button on the menu, has it's own little premise, and you can totally ignore it! I sat in on some of the onboarding design meetings for Disney Infinity. Here's a riddle: How do you design an in-game tutorial that's easy enough for 4-year-olds to understand (they can't even read, by the way) but isn't insulting or boring enough to chase away teenage gamers and also you have to teach them how to platform, select and shoot guns, drive cars, fly planes, fly jetpacks, and use a complicated inventory management/building system?
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Oct 15, 2014 04:26
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I spent two hours trying to figure out where to go when hl2 first came out. Then I gave up on the horrible single player mode and played more counterstrike.
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Oct 15, 2014 07:26
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leper khan posted:I spent two hours trying to figure out where to go when hl2 first came out. quote:Then I gave up on the horrible single player mode and played more counterstrike. The one thing that always bugged me (irrationally) about HL2 is that there's always one way through an area, and Gordon always seems to find it. The paths are incredibly linear, and in a weird way when you're just out in the city or whatever.
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Oct 15, 2014 15:57
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Jan posted:Someone please play War for the Overworld early access and tell me if it is bad thanks bye. I have this, I'd be surprised if the executable for it wasn't named dk3.exe Its exactly the same game, but with more stuff. Its pretty buggy right now and lacks a campaign, but there is already more rooms/creatures/spells and it has a levelling system too because it was made after 2007. They even hired the same guy who does the mentor voice in DK1 & 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I-3-LGTzE4&t=10s Ahdinko fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 16:20
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theflyingorc posted:...how? At the very beginning after you go into this courtyard area and walk around trying to figure out where to go with no indication.. yeah not the best game.
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Oct 15, 2014 17:05
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leper khan posted:At the very beginning after you go into this courtyard area and walk around trying to figure out where to go with no indication.. yeah not the best game. hmmm
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Oct 15, 2014 17:33
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Maybe you should look up a walkthrough, the game is 9 years 11 months old now there should be something out there to help you out.
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Oct 15, 2014 17:34
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leper khan posted:At the very beginning after you go into this courtyard area and walk around trying to figure out where to go with no indication.. yeah not the best game. I had this problem too, but it was because the room was at about 80 degrees Fahrenheit, I was running it in VR on an eight-year-old PC, using an improperly calibrated Razer Hydra for head tracking that was making me feel like I was in a lurching elevator when I walked and moved my head.
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Oct 15, 2014 17:53
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leper khan posted:At the very beginning after you go into this courtyard area and walk around trying to figure out where to go with no indication.. yeah not the best game. You appear to have posted 2 days ago about disliking the handholding in modern games, so I guess you're either trolling or lacking self awareness.
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Oct 15, 2014 18:00
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theflyingorc posted:God of War 3 was pretty amazing, because its tutorial is one of the most dynamic, exciting parts of the whole game. mutata posted:I've never played God of War, so I can't comment.
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Oct 15, 2014 18:09
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OneEightHundred posted:There are videos, but the short version is that the series in general tends to just dump you straight into the action and cap the section off with a spectacular boss fight. It works well because it plays to the game's strengths and doesn't feel out of place with the rest of the game.
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Oct 15, 2014 18:12
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theflyingorc posted:You appear to have posted 2 days ago about disliking the handholding in modern games, so I guess you're either trolling or lacking self awareness. Human beings are inconsistent. I do dislike handholding in modern games. I also dislike being lost in games. Is it so much to ask that the puppet masters lead me on without explicitly telling me so, or to give me hints when it's determinable that I need them instead of when it's determinable that I don't?
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Oct 15, 2014 18:15
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Except that HL2 is basically one of the best examples of an environment being able to handhold a player through an environment without it feeling like handholding, especially those early levels. There's literally no where to go but forward. The fact that you felt that you had options of where to go in the courtyard (you don't) proves that they were effective. The fact that you gave up there just proves that your attention span is very very short. Pacing is a different issue, and by modern standards HL2 is pretty slow at the start. But like I said, that's different from it being confusing or too open. It's HL2, not Morrowind.
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Oct 15, 2014 18:25
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I think you hit on what I was talking about earlier - HL2 feels a bit weird because it presents itself as being open when in fact there's a very specific route you take, so it starts to feel like Gordon has weird psychic powers that let him know exactly where to go. It's a good game, though.
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Oct 15, 2014 18:29
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Comte de Saint-Germain posted:Except that HL2 is basically one of the best examples of an environment being able to handhold a player through an environment without it feeling like handholding, especially those early levels. There's literally no where to go but forward. The fact that you felt that you had options of where to go in the courtyard (you don't) proves that they were effective. The fact that you gave up there just proves that your attention span is very very short. I clearly did not have places to go from the courtyard because I could not get out of it. I did not feel like there were places to go, I felt like I was unable to proceed. Because I was unable to proceed. I haven't touched the game since release week and have no intention to go back and get lost again. I don't think the issue is my attention span, as I spent a literal two hours on a segment of the game with nothing to do and seemingly nowhere to go. The game wouldn't point me in a direction even when I tried to get it to do so. Morrowind, on the other hand, is one of my favorite games. It's full of interesting content everywhere you look, and if you get lost on a specific objective you can backtrack and read the directions from your journal.
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Oct 15, 2014 18:49
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leper khan posted:I clearly did not have places to go from the courtyard because I could not get out of it. I did not feel like there were places to go, I felt like I was unable to proceed. Because I was unable to proceed. I haven't touched the game since release week and have no intention to go back and get lost again. I don't think the issue is my attention span, as I spent a literal two hours on a segment of the game with nothing to do and seemingly nowhere to go. The game wouldn't point me in a direction even when I tried to get it to do so. Then maybe you are just bad at games, I dunno, I'm not a mind-reader or a time traveler, but you should recognize that you are an *extreme* outlier here.
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Oct 15, 2014 18:58
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Comte de Saint-Germain posted:Then maybe you are just bad at games, I dunno, I'm not a mind-reader or a time traveler, but you should recognize that you are an *extreme* outlier here. I appreciate that many people enjoy bad games like HL2 and dislike great games like Monster Hunter. Let's all just agree that Tetris is pretty great and get on with it.
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Oct 15, 2014 19:04
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leper khan posted:bad games like HL2. Seriously man, just stop talking. You cannot express an opinion like this and expect to be taken seriously on any game dev forum.
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Oct 15, 2014 19:07
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Jan posted:Seriously man, just stop talking. You cannot express an opinion like this and expect to be taken seriously on any game dev forum. I frequently cite Half-Life 2 as having some of the best level design and pacing of games in its genre. If leper khan is not actually just trolling us I would have loved to have watched a recording of his play session, because the experience he's saying is so far outside the norm it's difficult for me to understand. To be fair, I did once try to have one of my lady friends try to play Half-Life 1 and she managed to kill herself immediately after leaving the tram by accidentally jumping off the railing, so I suppose cases like this can exist. Brackhar fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 19:15
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Jan posted:Seriously man, just stop talking. You cannot express an opinion like this and expect to be taken seriously on any game dev forum. It is my earnest opinion as a player and creator of games that HL2 is bad. I've briefly expanded on that point and have what I believe are valid and logical reasons for that belief. I do not expect everyone here to share that belief, but the implication that I should share yours makes me take you less seriously as a creative and indicates a lack of empathy for portions of your potential audience.
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Oct 15, 2014 19:15
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leper khan posted:I clearly did not have places to go from the courtyard because I could not get out of it. I did not feel like there were places to go, I felt like I was unable to proceed. Because I was unable to proceed. I haven't touched the game since release week and have no intention to go back and get lost again. I don't think the issue is my attention span, as I spent a literal two hours on a segment of the game with nothing to do and seemingly nowhere to go. The game wouldn't point me in a direction even when I tried to get it to do so. Here is a helpful guide to solving this incredible puzzle, if you have 30 seconds to watch a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHDM7ciczio @9:00 - 9:30.
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Oct 15, 2014 19:22
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leper khan posted:It is my earnest opinion as a player and creator of games that HL2 is bad. I've briefly expanded on that point and have what I believe are valid and logical reasons for that belief. quote:I do not expect everyone here to share that belief, but the implication that I should share yours makes me take you less seriously as a creative and indicates a lack of empathy for portions of your potential audience. I can imagine a person not liking Half-Life 2! I can! But the reason you gave is so unbelievable that it's amazing.
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Oct 15, 2014 19:27
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leper khan posted:I do not expect everyone here to share that belief, but the implication that I should share yours makes me take you less seriously as a creative and indicates a lack of empathy for portions of your potential audience. No, the way you're unilaterally shutting down Half-Life 2 as a bad game because you couldn't find where to go is what makes you hard to take seriously. You're dismissing an entire game based on its first few minutes because of your personal experience. Even though said experience is completely valid as an argument, dismissing the entire game is not.
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Oct 15, 2014 19:31
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theflyingorc posted:My memory was rusty, so I looked it up in a walkthrough. Congratulations on failing to find a ladder for two hours, I guess? FWIW you can link explicitly to timestamps in youtube videos, if you didn't know. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHDM7ciczio&t=540s Yeah, the lighting design here does a good job of drawing the player down that alleyway. It's the only direction that's brightly lit, and then there's a lamp shining down directly on-top of the ladder in question. The color of the ladder does blend in slightly so it may have been better had the ladder been a rust-red or something, but as long as you understand that you can jump (which I think they require you to earlier?) then I wouldn't expect this to cause issues. We shouldn't be condescending about it though. If the dude got stuck, he got stuck. It's a good opportunity to learn what caused him to do that and improve. Leper khan, what Jan was trying to say wasn't as much that you should share their opinion on Half-Life 2 (hell, I have no idea if Jan thinks it's just a decent FPS or one of the best games of all time), but more that there's little question in the creative community that Half-Life 2 is a well made, if not excellently made game. It's fine to hold the opinion that you don't like the game - no game is for everyone - but it's another to say that it's a poorly made game, especially after only a few minutes. If you're going to do the latter you'll need some really strong arguments to back that up, otherwise people won't take your critique seriously. If the basic argument is that it's bad because you didn't like it then I'll just close out by saying that one of the major skills I try to help associate designers with is separating their personal experience from objective critique, as it's far too easy to go down a rabit-hole of bad design if you can't recognize value in things that don't appeal to you personally.
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Oct 15, 2014 19:35
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Brackhar posted:FWIW you can link explicitly to timestamps in youtube videos, if you didn't know. Like this: quote:Yeah, the lighting design here does a good job of drawing the player down that alleyway. It's the only direction that's brightly lit, and then there's a lamp shining down directly on-top of the ladder in question. The color of the ladder does blend in slightly so it may have been better had the ladder been a rust-red or something, but as long as you understand that you can jump (which I think they require you to earlier?) then I wouldn't expect this to cause issues. I can see ways it could direct you better - if a vehicle pulled behind you and blocked your way back into the courtyard it would stop you from wandering around the open area if you missed the ladder - I can easily see somebody doing 2 laps - but I get what you're saying about getting stuck being legitimate (I was defending GO PUSH THE BUTTON as a legit game mechanic the other day), but given that they've already introduced jumping over stuff, I have no idea how your path to a solution wouldn't be "jump on the dumpster, hey do ladders work?"
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Oct 15, 2014 19:48
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In all honesty I can remember my first time playing HL2 and I *did* miss the ladder on the first time, maybe even the second time. I know because I remember thinking "ok where do I go?" That section is far from perfect. But I honestly question the seriousness of the poster when they say they play Counterstrike but couldn't figure out how to get out of the courtyard, it strains credulity.
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Oct 15, 2014 20:08
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I remember playing Half-Life 2 and being somewhat disappointed at how often people were just praising me for being Gordon Freeman, and then I went and shot more stuff before going back to being praised for being Gordon Freeman. The game felt very on-rails, and the gameplay and story rarely actually touched each other. That aside, it was a fun trip and the mechanics were tight. I certainly wouldn't call it a bad game.
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Oct 15, 2014 20:10
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Looking at that video I am amazed at how loving primitive and ugly that game looks now. At the time it was the pinnacle of realism, and now I am looking at that and going "all of these proportions are goofy-rear end quake proportions and why is that skybridge literally jammed in between two builders with no work to merge the seams" and christ the entire thing is boxes. I bet it is still fun though
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Oct 15, 2014 20:18
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I'm simultaneously saddened that I didn't see this conversation earlier and happy to get to read it all in one quick go. I love this whole thread and the people in it.
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Oct 15, 2014 20:19
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| # ? May 29, 2024 06:40 |
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Sigma-X posted:Looking at that video I am amazed at how loving primitive and ugly that game looks now. At the time it was the pinnacle of realism, and now I am looking at that and going "all of these proportions are goofy-rear end quake proportions and why is that skybridge literally jammed in between two builders with no work to merge the seams" and christ the entire thing is boxes. I feel like a lot of what is there holds up, but what stands out the most to me is how sparse the world is compared to recent games that have seriously kicked up the density of props and junk scattered around.
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Oct 15, 2014 20:21
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