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SA Live Remixers: how many lights can we add to this thing?
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Oct 15, 2014 04:38
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How does that help with looking at the crowd more? It seems like it would just replace looking at a laptop with looking down at the controller's screens.
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Oct 15, 2014 05:18
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Dessert Rose posted:Live remixing. How's it better than an Ableton setup for live remixing? I do that on my Push. Extra faders would be nice, but I'm happy relegating that to another controller for the launch capabilities from Push.
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Oct 15, 2014 06:01
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I am definitely the black sheep in this thread. I have never used records, jogwheels, or any platter simulation. I use Ableton which requires manual beat gridding. I quantize my launches from there. I use an APC40 MKII (just recently upgraded from the original). It's all buttons, dials and faders. It appears to be moving toward more my layout which I am almost embarrassed by. My mixing involves sampling, loops, digital effects, and the golden rule of "know your music and read your crowd." I am still very new to this area of performance. I am a classical musician and singer for 2/3+ of my life. I can't really draw parallels between these two vocations (DJing versus traditional musical performance). How do you think the DJ base responds to people like myself? That is to say: how do you seasoned DJs feel about getting away from records and more towards managing digital sets?
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Oct 15, 2014 06:42
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You're embarrassed because "elite" DJs say that vinyl is true DJing, and if you're using some mickey mouse controller, you're dumb and not a real DJ. Others are embracing it and starting to accept it. It doesn't matter what you use unless you have a specific goal in mind. If you're trying to become a mainstay at a club, you're going to have to learn whatever is on the house sound. If you're doing anything where you can bring your own equipment, it doesn't really matter. Producing an entertaining and cohesive set is what is ultimately important. There's just as much skill to display using Ableton as there is turntables, it just manifests itself in different ways. Keep in mind, transitioning is tough - we're coming from a world where all you needed was 1200s and a decent mixer. There's new controllers coming out constantly which makes it hard to determine an entry point. Anyone trashing controllers and controllerisms for the sake of trashing it isn't really worth the time or effort.
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Oct 15, 2014 07:11
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How is Ableton for doing on the fly sets? I only know how to edits on it. Can you just load up a song onto Ableton at the last minute, do auto-warp and just play it when you need to or do you need to prepare it all before?
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Oct 15, 2014 07:17
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dj bobby bieber posted:How's it better than an Ableton setup for live remixing? I do that on my Push. Extra faders would be nice, but I'm happy relegating that to another controller for the launch capabilities from Push. Maybe this will change, but I've tried Ableton for djing before and it feels like so much work compared to Traktor. Ableton gives me one waveform display on my laptop, this gives me 2-8 on my controller. I really want to stop staring at my laptop. I feel like Traktor with remix decks offers me a good middle ground, especially as right now the vast majority of what I play is other people's music.
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Oct 15, 2014 07:20
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keevo posted:How is Ableton for doing on the fly sets? I only know how to edits on it. Can you just load up a song onto Ableton at the last minute, do auto-warp and just play it when you need to or do you need to prepare it all before? It's really hard to do. Warping isn't quite as easy as setting a beat grid in Traktor. You could just pre-warp a bunch of stuff, I suppose. Cue points are missing, so you have to do things like create clips that start at a certain point in the track if you want to be able to start at the second drop or whatever.
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Oct 15, 2014 07:23
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dj bobby bieber posted:Things change. Thanks for this. Some people get funny at me when I show up with my rig, but you echo everything I feel. It sounds all the same and let's not eschew different tools. keevo posted:How is Ableton for doing on the fly sets? I only know how to edits on it. Can you just load up a song onto Ableton at the last minute, do auto-warp and just play it when you need to or do you need to prepare it all before? It's funny that you posted this because I am about a day or two out from releasing my open format template for Ableton and the APC40 MKII. My whole deal is about offering a better workflow for open format DJing with Ableton. This includes less hands on the laptop and more work with the controller: cueing up tracks, EQing, customizing effects, and just building sets. Ableton is wayyyyy off in their approach with controllers in trying to reinvent the piano. I'll be posting a video in the coming few days. ...you still gotta beat-grid (read: "warp", in Ableton terminology) by hand. Seriously, though, once you figure it out you can grid a track in 30 seconds if you don't already have it in your collection. Edit: Dessert Rose posted:Warping and cue points. Warping was the hardest thing I had to learn when going the Ableton route, but now it's seriously the easiest part of any night. I can download a track and warp it in effectively no time when a request comes up. Cue points, I agree, are non-existent. My template has some sampling available to it but Ableton at it's core doesn't work well for chopping tracks on-the-fly with a controller. It's not fun and I'm having an ongoing discussion with the company about providing features akin to this. 19 o'clock fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 07:26
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Do you warp by eye or do you have a sound card that lets you cue and warp before? Seems like it'd be real tough for me to do during an open format type set.
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Oct 15, 2014 07:50
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keevo posted:How is Ableton for doing on the fly sets? I only know how to edits on it. Can you just load up a song onto Ableton at the last minute, do auto-warp and just play it when you need to or do you need to prepare it all before? Depends entirely on the source and if the track is reliably quantized. For example, I can spot pretty quickly the warping on a Beatport-originating track (if any) - but something like a disco rip would be much, much harder to do on the fly.
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Oct 15, 2014 08:17
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See I kinda understand this from both sides. I've gone back and forth between straight vinyl DJ'ing, DVS, and DJing and remixing with Ableton, and I've finally settled on a DVS setup. I think what did it for me was the entertainment value that I personally derive from manipulating records vs pushing buttons and doing a lot of pre-prep. I don't even cue my tracks in Traktor because (a) it's freakin super easy to beatmatch so who cares and (b) I like being able to just toss a bunch of tracks at it and start spinning. I really prefer the ad-hoc nature of spinning records, regardless of whether it's DVS or real vinyl. So for me, it was just a question of what do I find to be the most fun, and sticking with that. As far as other DJ's and what they use--I don't care. As long as you can put together a dynamic set and move the crowd it doesn't matter. In fact the best-received set I ever did in public was done on Ableton.
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Oct 15, 2014 12:18
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I use Ableton for everything *except* for DJing these days but I really cannot imagine someone doing a set in Ableton and warping their tracks on the fly. The whole workflow with using Ableton for a live performance is, as far as I understand it and as far as I have experience with, having all your material sliced up, markered up, and ready to be launched. Plus half of the magic of Ableton is how you can template out your session and map your controller to do specific things, all work that must be taken care of before hand. Ableton's warping engine is very cool but even when you tell it to warp straight or apply a groove template there is still a TON of fine tuning that needs to happen regarding the beat markers which is not pleasant to do in a live situation. Not having a track 100% beat synced to another track can sometimes be a good thing when mixing and I'm sure you're not dealing with hundreds of warp markers per song, but if you're warping on the fly in Ableton just to prove something to the other DJs then I think you're missing the point. The Ableton workflow gets a lot of flack due to the pre-produced nature of it all. I don't really judge the workflow, I've used Ableton to DJ before and it was fine plus Ableton is a great piece of software, but you need to do something special with your set to really breathe life into the performance in my experience. Live Ableton sets seem to rely heavily on effects which kind of bums me out. Mapping a knob to do a stutter effect isn't gonna "move the crowd".
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Oct 15, 2014 16:33
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Dotcom Jillionaire posted:Mapping a knob to do a stutter effect isn't gonna "move the crowd". This is the bit that bothers me. It's so rare for someone to actually do something worthwhile. Most of the time they're just making the track slightly more poo poo and patting themselves on the back for putting in the effort.
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Oct 15, 2014 16:50
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Same could be said about a lot of effects that are misused or overused, though - and the new controllers pretty much encourage more FX usage. That trend pretty much started with the DJM-900.
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Oct 15, 2014 16:58
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So I shouldn't leave the flanger on the entire time?
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Oct 15, 2014 17:13
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keevo posted:So I shouldn't leave the flanger on the entire time? Nah, man, you gotta twist that depth knob with conviction. It makes the effect more effective.
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Oct 15, 2014 17:16
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keevo posted:Do you warp by eye or do you have a sound card that lets you cue and warp before? Seems like it'd be real tough for me to do during an open format type set. I do a bit of both. I use a NI Komplete Audio 6 that I can pipe my cue through. If it's a track I've never heard before I definitely listen the entire time I warp so I can learn the song before I even decide to use it. Else if I know it I can listen for the 1 in the song and go from there. It's one of those things that I struggled with at first then after a big eureka moment it was the easiest part of what I do. Dotcom Jillionaire posted:...but if you're warping on the fly in Ableton just to prove something to the other DJs then I think you're missing the point. Just part of using Live, I'm afraid  .
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Oct 15, 2014 17:39
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dj bobby bieber posted:Nah, man, you gotta twist that depth knob with conviction. It makes the effect more effective. Don't twist too hard though  19 o'clock posted:I do a bit of both. I use a NI Komplete Audio 6 that I can pipe my cue through. If it's a track I've never heard before I definitely listen the entire time I warp so I can learn the song before I even decide to use it. Else if I know it I can listen for the 1 in the song and go from there. It's one of those things that I struggled with at first then after a big eureka moment it was the easiest part of what I do. I don't know, it looks like it would take too long to do on the fly and get right. keevo fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 18:10
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keevo posted:I don't know, it looks like it would take too long to do on the fly and get right. A lot of people misunderstand what warping is and how to use it. If a track is quantized, like most tracks are, warping should only take a few seconds. Also, with queuing, you can loop a starting section that is quantized and an ending section that is also quantized (via warping for both) and get out of the track cleanly once the loop starts. Like I said, you don't know pain until you're warping disco records that were recorded to MP3 from a turntable. That takes too long to do on the fly.
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Oct 15, 2014 18:33
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dj bobby bieber posted:Like I said, you don't know pain until you're warping disco records that were recorded to MP3 from a turntable. That takes too long to do on the fly. This this this. Weddings rely on lots of classic rock and pop tunes where dirty despicable humans played the drums. Even really tight drummers can put you way off by the end. Those definitely take some time to get properly warped. With club/electronic/hip hop I am almost always dealing with a drum machine on the track. This means (just like Bobby Bieber mentioned) that if I can warp up the front and back of the track, I'm fine for general mixing. 99% of the time I warp the first 16 bars with four markers and the rest of the track is pretty drat tight. I just leap ahead and tighten it up toward the end, click save, and I'm set.
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Oct 15, 2014 19:06
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Just wanted to chime in on controller chat as it relates to Native Instruments; Myself and many local DJs have found the build quality of Native Instruments products incredibly suspect. There were a good 8 DJs kicking around St. John's, NL with Kontrol S4s a few years back and almost all of them, including my own, are now experiencing problems. I know of: At least 4 bricked units, non replaceable units; a couple with expensive/difficult-to-repair problems that prevent or limit functioning; a another couple with minor issues that are still playable (mine); and just 1 in perfect working condition. Curiously, most of the people (including myself) started experiencing problems *just* on the far side of the warranty expiration date. Now some of this can be attributed to attrition from gigging, but it's still abysmal. Having played with Pioneer's DDJ series since then, among other controllers like the Push and APC40 Mk2 and NS6/7, I can't help but feel Native Instruments has really poor build quality and durability. At least when it comes to their all-in-one controllers. Now to be fair, I've never experienced any problems with Native Instruments' smaller controllers like the X1/F1, nor have I heard of anyone experiencing problems with them, but the S4/S2 have an extremely negative reputation in Atlantic Canada and I can't get on board with the S8 if for no other reason than that. 19 o'clock posted:
Keep the thread updated for sure! I'm super interested in seeing the template- I have a Push and I've been thinking a Push + APC40 MKII would make an amazing live setup combo- imagine the power of a traditional DJ workflow meshed with the ability to create loops and melodies on the fly. PoizenJam fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 21:00
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Come to think of it, I've got problems with my X1. For one, all the knobs have to be touched at least once to 'calibrate' them which is extremely annoying, but mine has an actual defect where sometimes I'll turn an effect back to 0 and it interprets the knob as turned the other way. I have to grab it and move it again to fix the issue. Makes for some really embarrassing moments.
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Oct 15, 2014 21:36
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I've heard many horror stories about NI DJ hardware/controllers. I'd be all over the Numark NV if I were in the market, although my NS7mk1 had some issues as well.
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Oct 15, 2014 21:45
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I'm apparently a sucker for punishment since my S2 (MK1) has some serious problems recognizing when I hit the headphone cue buttons and drops play button presses on occasion. Still, I'm betting that their build quality has improved since then, and I've got a Sweetwater warranty to fall back on if it breaks. No one else is making this type of jogwheel-less controller right now so this is basically my only choice.
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Oct 15, 2014 21:50
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Poizen Jam posted:Keep the thread updated for sure! I'm super interested in seeing the template- I have a Push and I've been thinking a Push + APC40 MKII would make an amazing live setup combo- imagine the power of a traditional DJ workflow meshed with the ability to create loops and melodies on the fly. Do you have an APC40 MkII already? Especially if you have a Mac, I'd be interested in having you test it for me. It's all well and good making something for myself, but now that I am looking to release this as a commercial template, I have to make sure that everything works pretty drat consistently and intuitively.
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Oct 15, 2014 23:00
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19 o'clock posted:Do you have an APC40 MkII already? Especially if you have a Mac, I'd be interested in having you test it for me. I have the MKI sadly- would it be backward compatible or is the CC/midi signal completely different? Whether I actually get a MKII is probably going to be dependent on how Akai handles the issue I currently have with mine. For some reason Channel fader 7 just doesn't want to work- but follows the midi information for 6 or 8. Sounds like an electrical defect or manufacturers problem. PoizenJam fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 23:17
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Poizen Jam posted:I have the MKI sadly- would it be backward compatible or is the CC/midi signal completely different? Yeah, there were a lot of changes that were both made by Akai as well as myself. I should send you my old template for funsies if you like. PM me your e-mail address and I can ship it off.
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Oct 15, 2014 23:21
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I was the guy who bought a Launchpad when everyone else purchased the APC40 but I ended up being happier with my gear because the Launchpad was the size of a frisbee, the APC is a huge monstrous hunk of metal. That being said, I really like the new APCs and I don't have my Launchpad anymore, so I might end up with one depending on people's first impressions. It's not a full fledged controller but KORGs new Electribes seem pretty performance oriented, maybe the sampler one would pair well in a DJ context.
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Oct 16, 2014 01:48
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dj bobby bieber posted:A lot of people misunderstand what warping is and how to use it. If a track is quantized, like most tracks are, warping should only take a few seconds. Also, with queuing, you can loop a starting section that is quantized and an ending section that is also quantized (via warping for both) and get out of the track cleanly once the loop starts. Yeah it's probably not as bad as I'm thinking it is. The only time I ever have issues with warping is when there an acapella involved.
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Oct 16, 2014 02:16
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I just want to chime in that running a controller with Traktor DJ on the iPad is much, much, much better than using a laptop. For a nearly infinite number of reasons, touchscreens are the the future of DJing. People just don't know it yet.
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Oct 16, 2014 04:33
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bad day posted:I just want to chime in that running a controller with Traktor DJ on the iPad is much, much, much better than using a laptop. For a nearly infinite number of reasons, touchscreens are the the future of DJing. People just don't know it yet. Then I get all funny. I still require that tactile feel of a knob, fader, or button. You are probably right, but I will refuse to embrace that truth. You kids with your short pants and your skateboards...get off my lawn!
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Oct 16, 2014 05:26
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bad day posted:I just want to chime in that running a controller with Traktor DJ on the iPad is much, much, much better than using a laptop. For a nearly infinite number of reasons, touchscreens are the the future of DJing. People just don't know it yet. Whoa I was just asking about this a couple months ago. When did they come out with computer-less support?
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Oct 16, 2014 13:31
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bad day posted:I just want to chime in that running a controller with Traktor DJ on the iPad is much, much, much better than using a laptop. For a nearly infinite number of reasons, touchscreens are the the future of DJing. People just don't know it yet. I agree with you, which is why I'm pissed off and struggling to find out whether or not the S8 has touch capabilities on the waveform screens. I feel like I'm buying a used car and the dealer is like "It has mp3 capabilities." "capabilities" being the weaseler. Native Instruments posted:Stunning high-res displays react to touch-sensitive controls So you can scratch/track search/set cue points by swiping the waveform displays? Or are you twisting around the stupid loving search strips to make it sound as though it has touch screens. WHICH ONE IS IT?! -Touch Screens? -Search Strips? (yes) -Both? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLAUwCmsE0Y He touches the waveform displays a bunch of times and nothing happens. (At least, I think he's touching the displays, I can't tell if he's touching them or just being fidgety) I basically feel like I'm being sold an Xbone, so no thanks. I always hate the way they do product demos with some fidgtety DJ who can't keep his hands still. I can never tell if they're touching something, pointing or just putting their hand there for no reason at all. 11:23 - "What's his left hand doing? Ugh, nothing. There's no button or knob up there. poo poo, I just missed whatever the gently caress he pressed, with his right hand." It's a product demo, not a live set. No reason to try to make it look like you're doing more than you're actually doing. Less fuckery = more information and less having to go back and re-watch. liquorlanche fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 14:24
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The knobs are touch sensitive, but I don't think the screens are. It's like the new keyboard or the Maschine studio where you touch a knob and it highlights the parameter that knob is controlling.
long-ass nips Diane fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 18:30
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19 o'clock posted:I am almost embarrassed by. Don't be embarrassed. If you like what you do, you're good at it (or still learning), and the people you are playing for are enjoying it, it doesn't matter two shits how you are doing it. The only people that care are the same types of vocal minority that got Real Angry when CDJs became the norm instead of vinyl, or when digital sync became the norm (just go back a thread or three into the past to see pages and pages of seething anger on this very forum). Hell, you can still find those same people in the thread now, you don't even need to go back more than a page. 19 o'clock posted:How do you think the DJ base responds to people like myself? That is to say: how do you seasoned DJs feel about getting away from records and more towards managing digital sets? 99% of the people don't care what you're doing on stage as long as they are having a good time. Don't pander yourself or feel bad because of the DJ elitist micro-minority. It's almost 2015, take advantage of the technology we have now. The reality is, each new technology is absolutely superior to the previous. Vinyl, CDJ, DVS, digital. Each step up in technology does everything the old form did, but better and with new features and options, as well as added layers of customization. Now regards to your question of solely how DJs feel? A minority will write you off immediately if you dont use vinyl (mostly hipsters, honestly), a slightly larger group will write you off if you first learned with the ability to use a sync button (even if you didn't), slightly larger than that simply because you use digital instead of CDJs/DVS (and on and on...). Nobody reasonable will judge you if you know how to beatmatch (takes 2 hours to learn if you're slow) and as you said, stick to the golden rule of knowing your music. All of the aforementioned people above are elitists - they think their way is/was correct and anything else isn't. You shouldn't care what these DJs think, you don't owe them anything, and you don't need to prove anything to them, only to yourself and the crowd. I've personally used everything from a $50 controller (10 years ago back when Traktor was only a few years old), to vinyl, to CDJs, to digital and software. The only setup I haven't owned myself were DVS because I wasn't willing to drop poo poo loads of money for something I had already done in a slightly different form. As someoen who has used everything and kept up with technology, it doesn't matter what you do - just don't trainwreck. 
mitztronic fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 18:37
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Sync button kicks rear end gently caress the haters. You still need to know how to beatmatch anyway if you do any amount of manipulation on a track or if your magic whiz-bang sync button doesn't understand the beats in a track (about 1 out of 30 tracks do this for me)
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Oct 16, 2014 18:42
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in any case it's better to be well versed and choose the workflow that works for you rather than latch onto one thing because it's the new hotness and never leave your comfort zone
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Oct 16, 2014 19:27
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mitztronic posted:As someoen who has used everything and kept up with technology, it doesn't matter what you do - just don't trainwreck. Or play really lovely music.
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Oct 16, 2014 19:29
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mitztronic posted:Don't be embarrassed. Thanks, just want to make sure that I'm not shooting myself in the foot and generating a negative buzz on gear alone. I have been performing guitar and voice for over a decade now. I am a bit of a snob when it comes to gear, playing style, stage presence, etc. I'm starting to let go, but still groan when people make a big deal out of one guy playing a bunch of instruments in a looping environment to simulate a full band. I suppose I'm not immune on that front. "He's just one rear end in a top hat who plays a lot of instruments poorly!"
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Oct 16, 2014 22:48
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