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ProfessorCirno posted:Necrotic weapon adds it as a half so get blades heavy or light as an implement and all your powers do part necrotic, allowing you to still use the other damage type. Vampiric converts all and is lower level, but still like level 9. Before 9, not much you can do. Of course, the only real way to PIERCE necrotic resistance - which lots and lots and lots and lots of enemies have - is with...a weapon. Soooooo... On the other hand, Warforged Druid lets you be a Beast Wars transformer so that's something to consider.
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Oct 16, 2014 10:32
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:I have a friend who has his heart set on making a workable necrotic damage build as warforged at level 25. This is pretty hard, as in most cases necrotic is the single worst energy type to specialize in. He has tried wizard so far and we have gone over it a bit, but wizard doesn't make good use of necrotic damage at all and doesn't really have a way to exploit multiclassing to make it better. RAW, necrotic is lovely, even discounting the fact that it's among the most commonly resisted damage types. I'd say let him play morninglord with 'radiant' replaced with 'necrotic' and a
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Oct 16, 2014 19:32
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Blackguards are ok at dropping constant necrotic damage with Dread Smite (and it's mixed necrotic/cold so less likely to get resisted, although I imagine many necrotic resistant creatures will also resist cold). I don't think they scale very well into Epic though.
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Oct 16, 2014 19:43
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AXE COP posted:Blackguards are ok at dropping constant necrotic damage with Dread Smite (and it's mixed necrotic/cold so less likely to get resisted, although I imagine many necrotic resistant creatures will also resist cold). I don't think they scale very well into Epic though. Eh, if you slap a charge kit on them they can be downright acceptable. Great? No. Good? No. On Par? No. Acceptable? Yeah, acceptable.
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Oct 16, 2014 19:48
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If you worship that one dead death god you can also take a prestige path that makes it into radiant/necrotic/cold and gives you a scythe that hits for almost as hard as a fullblade.
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Oct 16, 2014 20:05
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Madmarker posted:Eh, if you slap a charge kit on them they can be downright acceptable. Great? No. Good? No. On Par? No. Acceptable? Yeah, acceptable. You can put a charge kit on literally anything, it's not really a metric to judge blackguard on.
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Oct 16, 2014 20:07
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:You can put a charge kit on literally anything, it's not really a metric to judge blackguard on. Yup, this is literally true. Charge kit can meet charop benchmarks entirely classless. Blackguards are solid at what they are, which is a tough hybrid striker/defender. They're not strong strikers by a long shot, and rely on cold vuln for what little real ability they have. Also, on being either Human, Half-Elf or Tiefling in order to go pure CHA and get as many hits of the whole fruit as possible. But overall, they're never going to be more than mediocre strikers without doing things which basically anyone can do, like MC Sorc, pick up Flame Spiral and Demonskin Adept.
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Oct 16, 2014 20:10
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:You can put a charge kit on literally anything, it's not really a metric to judge blackguard on. Blackguards can be cool because they're the only class that can abuse two big vulnerability packages. They can natively inflict cold (and necrotic) on all their attacks, so they can pick up all the neat classless frost-related stuff, and with a radiant weapon they can also get a lot of use out of the Paladin base support for radiant damage. This is a partial build I was poking at for a game and never finished/ended up making something else, and it's Tiefling-centric, but it shows off some of the crazy bullshit they can do. Dread Smite has great synergy with Icy Clutch of Stygia and Lasting Frost in particular, and with Morninglord you start slapping people around with Radiant vulnerability on top of that. Note that there's exactly zero charge optimization (save for Impaling Spear, but that's also "every attack-optimization") because, while effective, that package tends to bore me in actual play. ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== level 13 Tiefling, Blackguard, Morninglord FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 13, Con 17, Dex 9, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 23. STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 12, Con 12, Dex 8, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 18. AC: 18 Fort: 22 Reflex: 19 Will: 25 HP: 104 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 26 TRAINED SKILLS Religion +11 UNTRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +5, Arcana +6, Bluff +14, Diplomacy +12, Dungeoneering +7, Endurance +9, Heal +7, History +6, Insight +7, Intimidate +12, Nature +7, Perception +7, Stealth +7, Streetwise +12, Thievery +5, Athletics +7 FEATS Level 1: Wrath of the Crimson Legion Level 2: Icy Clutch of Stygia Level 4: Cold Adaptation (retrained to Battle Awareness at Level 11) Level 6: Cunning Stalker Level 8: Weapon Proficiency (Gouge) Level 10: Imperious Majesty Level 11: Lasting Frost Level 12: Impaling Spear Feat User Choice: Mighty Crusader Expertise POWERS Blackguard daily 5: Majestic Halo Blackguard utility 6: Bless Weapon Blackguard daily 9: Ray of Reprisal ITEMS Radiant Gouge +3 ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ====== RPZip fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 20:45
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Icy Clutch is almost worthless, your enemy should be dead long before it has a chance to fail a save against the ongoing. You never hit with a Cold attack so you have no way to activate Lasting Frost. Not doing the same damage type with Dread Smite and your regular attacks means you only ever get one useful vulnerability tap until Epic when you go Radiant one and things start to smoke a bit more. Tiefling Blackguard wants to go Lasting Frost/Frost Weapon/MC Fighter and either Champion of Corellon or Gladiator Champion, or just say gently caress it and as previously noted, MC Sorc/Flame Spiral/Demonskin Adept. E: And Light Blades are where it's at for weapons; you get +hit with CA from Nimble Blade and +Damage with CA from Light Blade Expertise, and you can still pick up Surprising Charge. Rapiers. Blackguards in terms of how they actually play are basically chargy Rogues in platemail. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 21:00
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ProfessorCirno posted:Necrotic weapon adds it as a half so get blades heavy or light as an implement and all your powers do part necrotic, allowing you to still use the other damage type. Vampiric converts all and is lower level, but still like level 9. Before 9, not much you can do. Of course, the only real way to PIERCE necrotic resistance - which lots and lots and lots and lots of enemies have - is with...a weapon. Soooooo... Blightbeast is really good as it basically gives you "Frostcheese, but for necrotic", but yes, Warforged unfortunately not a great fit for it. RPZip posted:Blackguards can be cool because they're the only class that can abuse two big vulnerability packages. They can natively inflict cold (and necrotic) on all their attacks, so they can pick up all the neat classless frost-related stuff, and with a radiant weapon they can also get a lot of use out of the Paladin base support for radiant damage. This is a partial build I was poking at for a game and never finished/ended up making something else, and it's Tiefling-centric, but it shows off some of the crazy bullshit they can do. Dread Smite has great synergy with Icy Clutch of Stygia and Lasting Frost in particular, and with Morninglord you start slapping people around with Radiant vulnerability on top of that. Note that there's exactly zero charge optimization (save for Impaling Spear, but that's also "every attack-optimization") because, while effective, that package tends to bore me in actual play. If you're running a Blackguard and not using Power of Strife what are you even doing
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Oct 16, 2014 21:40
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fatherdog posted:If you're running a Blackguard and not using Power of Strife what are you even doing Playing any sort of Blackguard other than a Human one who for some reason took Ardent Strike rather than Virtuous as their extra at-will? Power of Strife is a pretty iffy feat even if you're playing that decidedly iffy build of the already iffy Blackguard... (Blackguards don't get any choice of their at-wills unless they're Human, and Human ones will be wanting to take Virtuous Strike in order to have a CHA-MBA). The real way to optimise a Blackguard, for waht it's worth, is to hybrid it with Executioner and double dip striker features. And even then it's mediocre unless you take advantages of the terrible wording of the hybrid executioner. no multi-attacks... thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 23:21
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thespaceinvader posted:Icy Clutch is almost worthless, your enemy should be dead long before it has a chance to fail a save against the ongoing. You never hit with a Cold attack so you have no way to activate Lasting Frost. Dread Smite is a Paladin Attack power that does cold damage and applies Lasting Frost. It also applies ongoing cold/necrotic damage (save ends) that will get the Lasting Frost damage vuln when it ticks on their turn. At any point after level 16 the target would also have vuln 10 Radiant for any follow-up attacks. And dang, do you guys not face a lot of elites or something? quote:E: And Light Blades are where it's at for weapons; you get +hit with CA from Nimble Blade and +Damage with CA from Light Blade Expertise, and you can still pick up Surprising Charge. Rapiers. Nimble Blade is nice but the build is feat-heavy as it is (note the lack of a weapon focus feat); without it you're getting +2 damage with CA but your W size drops from 2d5+2 (avg: 8) to 1d8 (avg: 4.5), which isn't exactly a great deal. I went for Mighty Crusader over Spear Expertise for flexibility in being able to grab implement powers off the PP and not eat the to-hit penalty, plus being able to cast them whenever. quote:If you're running a Blackguard and not using Power of Strife what are you even doing Character was a) a Tiefling and b) worshipped Amanuator for the PP. If you're gonna go human and forgo the morninglord stuff it's a decent pick. E: Wait, I forgot that Ardent Strike is MBA only on charges, that's a terrible idea.
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Oct 16, 2014 23:28
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RPZip posted:Dread Smite is a Paladin Attack power that does cold damage and applies Lasting Frost. It also applies ongoing cold/necrotic damage (save ends) that will get the Lasting Frost damage vuln when it ticks on their turn. At any point after level 16 the target would also have vuln 10 Radiant for any follow-up attacks. And dang, do you guys not face a lot of elites or something? Dread Smite does not hit. To hit you need to make an attack roll and equal or exceed a defence, dread smite does neither. Ergo, Dread Smite cannot activate Lasting Frost, which requires you to hit with a cold power. You don't need a feat to get Rapier proficiency and pick up 1 to hit, which accounts for the die size, more or less. You do need a feat for Gouge which gives you back a feat for Weapon Focus or Nimble Blade. You gain +2 to hit, which is important when you have to hit to trigger your Spirit of Vice damage. You can't add that on to Dread Smite either, it's not a damage roll. Icy Clutch might have some value when facing elites or solos, but... well, in 3 or 4 levels of playing a tiefling blackguard with icy clutch at paragon, I think I managed to trigger it all of once, and it didn't get the vuln at that point. It's a very expensive thing to buy as compared to, say, Weapon Focus. +6 damage maybe once per encounter if you're lucky versus +2 damage every attack? No contest. Picking up some implement stuff to be able to use Morninglord is a great idea, but if you're going Morninglord, you want to focus on that and not waste feats fiddling with cold damage that doesn't trigger the vuln. And if you're NOT doing Vuln Cold, you;re probably Doing It Wrong on a Blackguard, being as you should be tapping the vuln 3 times per round at least (hit, dread smit, ongoing) which amounts to more than the 10 you get from ML. And you get to use Icy Heart instead of Weapon Focus for an extra +1. Blackguards are solid, but they're almost entirely constrained in how you build them. You can through some heavy acrobatics do both Morninglord and Cold at Paragon, via Half-Elf, Eldritch Strike, Arcane Admixture, and Crusader's Weapon, but it's totally not worth the investment. Of course, Morninglord starts getting much more fun at Epic when you pick up Radiant one and EVERY bit of damage you deal starts pinnging the ML vulnerability, AND you keep the cold stuff too... E: FWIW, this is my Tiefling Blackguard as I last have him recorded. TUrns out my memory was a bit off; those 3 or 4 levels started at 8 and went to 12. ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== Kairon, level 12 Tiefling, Blackguard, Champion of Corellon Background: Born Under a Bad Sign, High Imaskar, Turathi Inquisitor, Con Artist, Society - Poor, Last of the Line (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit) FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 11, Con 18, Dex 16, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 22. STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 10, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 17. AC: 31 Fort: 23 Reflex: 24 Will: 28 HP: 103 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 26 TRAINED SKILLS Endurance +11, Intimidate +17, Athletics +7, Bluff +19, Streetwise +17 UNTRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +5, Arcana +5, Diplomacy +12, Dungeoneering +6, Heal +6, History +5, Insight +6, Nature +6, Perception +6, Religion +5, Stealth +7, Thievery +5 FEATS Level 1: Wrath of the Crimson Legion Level 2: Icy Clutch of Stygia (retrained to Deft Blade at Level 11) Level 4: Wrathful Warrior Level 6: Devout Protector Expertise Level 8: Superior Will Level 10: Wintertouched Level 11: Lasting Frost Level 12: Blood of Levistus POWERS Primordial Adept Starting Feature: Solkara's Wave Blackguard daily 5: Radiant Delirium Blackguard utility 6: Virtue Blackguard daily 9: Shackles of Justice Blackguard utility 10: Wrath of the Gods ITEMS Frost Rapier +2 (8), Heavy Shield, Imposter's Layered Plate Armor +2 (7), Belt of Vigor (heroic tier), Bracers of Mighty Striking (heroic tier), Distance Dagger +1, Adventurer's Kit, Fey-Blessed Circlet (heroic tier), Demonskin Tattoo (heroic tier), Oil of Flesh Returned (heroic tier), Cloak of Resistance +2, Silt Striders (paragon tier), Magic Holy Symbol +2, Gloves of Ice (paragon tier), Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (paragon tier) ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ====== Fey-blessed Circlet probably ought to be Horned Helm FWIW. And I used Devout Protector on the basis of trying to off-defend, and because the CHA-weapon dailies are mostly poo poo. The theme is also really bad. Overall the optimisation is pretty shoddy and not really aimed at damage. And it's missing a bunch of important bits, like Imperious Majesty. And it could really do with Battle Awareness rather than Wrathful Warrior. But you get the idea. And holy poo poo, why the gently caress did I put Wintertouched in there OMG. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 23:36
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thespaceinvader posted:Dread Smite does not hit. To hit you need to make an attack roll and equal or exceed a defence, dread smite does neither. Ergo, Dread Smite cannot activate Lasting Frost, which requires you to hit with a cold power. It doesn't apply off the initial damage (Dread Smite, Trigger: You target an enemy with an at-will weapon attack power, Effect: The target takes cold and necrotic damage equal to blah blah blah) because that isn't a hit, and that goes off whether or not you actually connect. It applies off "If the triggering attack hits, the target also takes 5 ongoing cold and necrotic damage (save ends)." It requires you to hit the target and applies a cold damage effect, and it does both. The fact that it is checking another power's roll instead of generating its own doesn't seem like it should make a difference. The alternate reading is that, because the at-will attack power is now inflicting cold and necrotic damage (save ends) on a hit, it gains those keywords. Either way, it should apply. What would be nice, but doesn't work with the timing rules, is if you could use Dread Smite to inflict cold vulnerability before the actual at-will attack lands. The auto-damage effect will hit before you roll your attack, but it won't trigger Lasting Frost unless the weapon attack lands and inflicts the ongoing. quote:Icy Clutch might have some value when facing elites or solos, but... well, in 3 or 4 levels of playing a tiefling blackguard with icy clutch at paragon, I think I managed to trigger it all of once, and it didn't get the vuln at that point. It's a very expensive thing to buy as compared to, say, Weapon Focus. +6 damage maybe once per encounter if you're lucky versus +2 damage every attack? No contest. Well, at Paragon it's 11-12 damage plus cold vuln for another 5, which is a pretty hefty chunk of damage. You can also actually go ahead and pick up both, even though I didn't; Imperious Majesty is nice but not inherently required, for example. I can see triggering it being a problem on things that aren't elites or solos, though. You're correct on the Gouge vs. Rapier thing - in my notes I'd had the Gouge listed as a +2 weapon, which it clearly isn't, so I'm not sure where that came from. I think it's viable because the spear support is pretty good, comparable to light blades (if you are gonna go for Surprising Charge, that bigger W dice becomes significant) but the lower prof bonus means it washes out some of the advantages. E2: Speaking of my notes, I also have "works better at epic" in here. The radiant vulnerability may not be significant depending on your party comp until late, but it is a way to get some extra punch in during epic tier where they might otherwise fall behind. RPZip fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 23:50
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RPZip posted:It doesn't apply off the initial damage (Dread Smite, Trigger: You target an enemy with an at-will weapon attack power, Effect: The target takes cold and necrotic damage equal to blah blah blah) because that isn't a hit, and that goes off whether or not you actually connect. It applies off "If the triggering attack hits, the target also takes 5 ongoing cold and necrotic damage (save ends)." It requires you to hit the target and applies a cold damage effect, and it does both. The fact that it is checking another power's roll instead of generting its own doesn't seem like it should make a difference. Spear vs Light Blade is pretty much a wash when it comes to support. Both can target REF with MBAs, both get +damage with their expertise, but Light Blades get Nimble and +3 prof where Gouges don't and get +2. They're much of a muchness when hitting is less important, just swingier, but when a lot of your damage is conditional on hitting, as it is for a Blackguard (you don't hit, you don't get Lasting Frost, the ongoing damage, or your Vice bonus) it's a LOT more important to be accurate. As noted earlier, basically plate-armoured Rogues in that regard. On a regular charger (such as a Slayer, say) I'd definitely go for the Gouge. On a Blackguard, definitely the Rapier.
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Oct 17, 2014 00:03
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thespaceinvader posted:Nope. The power doing the hitting is not dread smite, and dread smite's damage is a separate thing entirely. In order to trigger Lasting Frost your at-wil needs to do cold by itself. Dread smite then triggers, and pings the vulnerable straight away which is nice. Dread Smite references what happens as a result of another power, but it doesn't change anything ABOUT that power. It's dread smite that applies the ongoing, not the at-will. The trigger on Dread Smite is "when you target an enemy". That autodamage goes off before the attack roll is made; the only way to get cold vuln on that ping would be if you hit with another cold at-will attack first (minor action, AP, whatever), and then made another attack and triggered Dread Smite on that. The order of operations that I'm proposing with Dread Smite is as follows; 1) You declare you're attacking Brofus with your melee basic attack. 2) You decide you're going to use Dread Smite (trigger: you target an enemy with an at-will weapon attack power). 3) Dread Smite triggers, dealing X amount of cold and necrotic damage to Brofus. It then attaches a rider to the Hit: effect of the at-will weapon attack power, namely "The target takes ongoing 5 cold and necrotic damage (save ends)." 4) You roll the attack and resolve it, using the Dread Smite Hit: addendum above if applicable. The order of operations you're proposing is: 1) You declare you're attacking Brofus with your melee basic attack. 2) You decide you're going to use Dread Smite (trigger: you target an enemy with an at-will weapon attack power). 3) Instead of resolving Dread Smite right now, you wait resolve the attack first instead. 4) You roll the attack and resolve it normally. 5) Dread Smite now triggers, dealing the ping damage, and if the attack hit then it also applies the ongoing cold/necrotic damage. I dunno why you'd wait until afterwards, though; whether or not it's a reaction (do it after that step) or an interrupt (do it right now) doesn't actually matter, and it's not like those terms are exceedingly well-defined anyway for these purposes and it's a free action to boot. If the power was worded as "You attack an enemy" I think you'd be right, but it's specifically called out as targeting an enemy; it should go off before the power is rolled. You're right that this fucks people specifying frost pretty good, but it seems like the more natural way to read the power is to trigger the effect when it's, uh, triggered. On the other hand, I'd also let anyone bringing a Blackguard to the table resolve it in either order as they liked, because they're not exactly trying to cheese out the game by bringing a Blackguard.
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Oct 17, 2014 00:18
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Yes, because that's how the rules for free actions work. RC 197 is the reference: "If an effect has a trigger but is neither an immediate action nor an opportunity action, assume that it behaves like an immediate reaction, waiting for its trigger to completely resolve." It's a triggered free action which doesn't need to be an interrupt to function, so it resolves as a reaction. A reaction to the trigger 'you target an enemy with an attack' happens after that attack. Reactions don't happen after the step in the attack sequence, they happen after the whole attack (but in between attacks of a multi-attack power) per RC196. So yes, the sequence is: Target enemy Trigger Dread Smite (also at this point, trigger Vice of Domination if that's what you're using) Make attack roll. Hit or miss. If hit, and if using cold, and it's the first attack of the turn, choose to apply Lasting Frost. Roll and resolve damage for the attack. Lasting Frost vuln takes effect. Dread Smite fires off, dealing X cold and necrotic, pinging lasting frost if applicable and applying ongoing cold and necrotic if the attack hit. That all being said, I'm not desperately invested either way, and the Blackguard needs all the help it can get, so bending the rules isn't exactly going to hurt anyone. Except the monsters, which is the goal. But RAW, doing it this way actually hurts the MORE... But costs you Morninglord vulns. Also FWIW, the Half-Elf version kills the others at Epic because of Quickened Spellcasting. God that feat bugs the gently caress out of me. Overall though, the whole thing's more-or-less a wash because the Ranger's still burning you off into the dust with Twin Strike > Minor > Minor > Immediate.
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Oct 17, 2014 00:31
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quote:Yes, because that's how the rules for free actions work. RC 197 is the reference: "If an effect has a trigger but is neither an immediate action nor an opportunity action, assume that it behaves like an immediate reaction, waiting for its trigger to completely resolve." It's a triggered free action which doesn't need to be an interrupt to function, so it resolves as a reaction. A reaction to the trigger 'you target an enemy with an attack' happens after that attack. Reactions don't happen after the step in the attack sequence, they happen after the whole attack (but in between attacks of a multi-attack power) per RC196. Huh, fair enough. I don't actually own a copy of the RC so I wasn't aware they'd actually clarified it, I thought it was still left in the PHB state of "not well defined" so resolving it immediately made sense to me, comparable to the Backstab ability for thieves. quote:That all being said, I'm not desperately invested either way, and the Blackguard needs all the help it can get, so bending the rules isn't exactly going to hurt anyone. Except the monsters, which is the goal. But RAW, doing it this way actually hurts the MORE... But costs you Morninglord vulns. Yeah, that means the build doesn't really work. Oh well, it was a neat thought; I'll keep it on the backburner as an idea for another time. quote:Overall though, the whole thing's more-or-less a wash because the Ranger's still burning you off into the dust with Twin Strike > Minor > Minor > Immediate. Also this.
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Oct 17, 2014 00:54
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thespaceinvader posted:Playing any sort of Blackguard other than a Human one who for some reason took Ardent Strike rather than Virtuous as their extra at-will? He took Wrath of the Crimson Legion, why on earth would he be taking Virtuous Strike?
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Oct 17, 2014 18:45
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fatherdog posted:He took Wrath of the Crimson Legion, why on earth would he be taking Virtuous Strike? Wrath of the Crimson Legion is tiefling only. The only way to get to pick an at-will as a Blackguard is by being either a human (take bonus at-will instead of heroic effort) or half-elf (do half-elf things with the at-will you steal from another class). If I could pick from the main Paladin list I wouldn't be keeping the base at-wills, which are worthless for a CHA-primary blackguard since they run off STR instead.
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Oct 17, 2014 18:50
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fatherdog posted:He took Wrath of the Crimson Legion, why on earth would he be taking Virtuous Strike? To elaborate: Power of Strife only affects Ardent Strike (of the Paladin at-wills) and the only way to GET Ardent Strike on a Blackguard is to play a Human and pick it as your bonus at-will. Because Blackguards get no choice of their at wills; Domination Blackguards get Dominator's Strike, Fury get Ferocious Strike, and both get Vengeance Strike. So the only way to get the useful bonus out of Power of Strife is by being human, and humans can't take Wrath of the Crimson Legion, which is a tiefling feat, so they need another way to get a decent MBA, which means picking Virtuous Strike as their at-will. Ardent is a solid option, but not amazing. It's good if you want to focus hard on off-defending. And even with aaaaaalll of that taken into account, Power of Strife isn't that amazing a feat. It's a neat untyped bonus, but it's only on an at-will which doesn't get any of the +MBA stuff which is where you get your striking capacity from - things like Deft Blade or Impaling Spear. All told, Power of Strife is only even applicable for Human Blackguards, and even then, it's kinda lovely.
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Oct 17, 2014 18:55
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Is there any way to get a fully Dex-powered MBA outside of playing an Essentials class?
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Oct 18, 2014 14:24
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Monks get a feat called Internalize the Basic Kata that lets them use Dex for Unarmed Strike MBAs. There's a level 10 hands-slot item called the Babau Gauntlets that lets you use Dex for MBAs once per turn.
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Oct 18, 2014 14:45
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RPZip posted:Huh, fair enough. I don't actually own a copy of the RC so I wasn't aware they'd actually clarified it, I thought it was still left in the PHB state of "not well defined" so resolving it immediately made sense to me, comparable to the Backstab ability for thieves. The rules compendium is pretty great and worth having. Pretty much any rule in the PHB that is slightly fiddly has been changed or clarified to be much clearer - stealth, falling, orders of operations etc.
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Oct 18, 2014 15:36
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Really Pants posted:Monks get a feat called Internalize the Basic Kata that lets them use Dex for Unarmed Strike MBAs. There's a level 10 hands-slot item called the Babau Gauntlets that lets you use Dex for MBAs once per turn. The latter is the onyl really useful one. it means you can't get a DEX-MBA on an AP but you should rarely need to. The best use of them is on permastealth builds.
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Oct 18, 2014 17:08
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Ok, this is going to sound strange, but what's the best way for me as a PC to limit how hard an Avenger can murder me? I think I can mitigate the others somewhat with some damage resistance of various types, but the Avenger will be tricky. I think I'm on track for a story-appropriate heel-turn and I'd like to have my pieces in place for when the weapons come out. I'm not that guy, I swear. 
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Oct 23, 2014 03:32
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Echophonic posted:Ok, this is going to sound strange, but what's the best way for me as a PC to limit how hard an Avenger can murder me? I think I can mitigate the others somewhat with some damage resistance of various types, but the Avenger will be tricky. I think I'm on track for a story-appropriate heel-turn and I'd like to have my pieces in place for when the weapons come out. Get a buddy to stand next to you and make sure that buddy can't be forcibly moved away from you or easily murdered.
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Oct 23, 2014 03:35
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Echophonic posted:Ok, this is going to sound strange, but what's the best way for me as a PC to limit how hard an Avenger can murder me? I think I can mitigate the others somewhat with some damage resistance of various types, but the Avenger will be tricky. I think I'm on track for a story-appropriate heel-turn and I'd like to have my pieces in place for when the weapons come out. If your character kills himself first rather than trying to PvP in a game that's not at all designed for it, the Avenger can't do poo poo to you.
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Oct 23, 2014 03:37
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Echophonic posted:Ok, this is going to sound strange, but what's the best way for me as a PC to limit how hard an Avenger can murder me? I think I can mitigate the others somewhat with some damage resistance of various types, but the Avenger will be tricky. I think I'm on track for a story-appropriate heel-turn and I'd like to have my pieces in place for when the weapons come out. Be able to turn invisible?
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Oct 23, 2014 03:43
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RPZip posted:If your character kills himself first rather than trying to PvP in a game that's not at all designed for it, the Avenger can't do poo poo to you. This. 4E doesn't support PVP well at all. If you're going to take a heel-turn. don't make it a combat thing.
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Oct 23, 2014 03:48
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UrbanLabyrinth posted:This. 4E doesn't support PVP well at all. If you're going to take a heel-turn. don't make it a combat thing. Yeah, you two are probably right, I just know that the avenger and I have been talking about throwing down for almost the entire campaign. Just trying to have a plan for if it works out as a heel-turn and if the dice come out. I really have no idea what's going to happen with all of it. I know it sounds like there some sort of bad or disruptive intention here, but I honestly would rather just kill my guy off than do something that'd throw a wrench into the game. Going to keep the ally idea in mind, though. I'm sure one of the summoning statues would do the trick for a round or two. Edit: Actually, thinking about it further, it'd be way more satisfying and interesting to turn the Avenger and the rest of my party to my way of thinking, since everyone thinks eternal imprisonment is evil, right? ..right? Ok, maybe I am a bad, disruptive person. 
Echophonic fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 23, 2014 04:00
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Echophonic posted:Going to keep the ally idea in mind, though. I'm sure one of the summoning statues would do the trick for a round or two. The problem with THAT is that it suddenly turns you into a group of targets for the burst-oriented Wild Mage Sorcerer to explode, and it's already his gimmick to blow up the party 
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Oct 23, 2014 11:47
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I've played a little 4e PvP and it's the most rocket tag thing ever, to the extent that a player was reduced to negative bloodied in the very first turn of the combat from 30 squares away. The best way to handle a party member turning evil is to hand control of them over to the DM and let them become an NPC villain in the campaign. Then you can roll up a new character and keep playing and you even get to fight yourself later! edit: thinking about it the DM could even let you run a session or two based around fighting your now-NPC character. That way you get to have a throwdown but using the combat systems the game was designed for.
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Oct 23, 2014 11:51
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I'm not evil! They're the ones who worship false gods!ElegantFugue posted:The problem with THAT is that it suddenly turns you into a group of targets for the burst-oriented Wild Mage Sorcerer to explode, and it's already his gimmick to blow up the party See? Echophonic fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 23, 2014 13:34
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I'm not sure if this'll help, but I've done some PvP myself, and here's what I've figured out. First, if you're fighting an entire party at once, you're probably screwed. That aside, there's two fundamentals to keep in mind. Target priority and action economy. While this applies to monsters as well, the dynamic changes when fighting PCs. Top priority targets are the Leaders followed by Strikers followed by Controllers followed by Defenders. Even if you manage to get a nova off and kill one of the high damage Strikers, if there's a Leader present, all you did was waste your time and powers. More than two Leader is problematic, focus on the one who can heal the most. Strikers are obviously the second most important target, as they're the most likely to kill you. You've probably already novaed on a Leader, so you're going to have to outlast the Strikers. I'll go into how to do that in a minute. Next is Controllers, as they aren't necessarily going to kill you, but will make it increasingly difficult to actually fight if they hit you. I place Defenders last, as their mechanics are avoidable if you plan around them, I.E, keep away from them if possible. However, their place can be dynamic, if you're having to deal with a mark, it would be best to focus on getting rid of the Defender. This is why taking out the Leader first is crucial, because they can keep the Defender up in and your way, disallowing you from taking out the Striker. The other fundamental is action economy. If you're fighting a party, you're fighting at a disadvantage. They have more actions than you do, thus more attacks, thus more opportunity to deal damage and take you out. This is why I say if you're fighting a party, you aren't going to have much of a chance, however... The key to 4E is Attack. Attack is everything. If you do not hit, you do not do damage. Thus, if you can avoid getting hit, you can win. I've found the best class that can just break PvP in two like this is the Monk. High amounts of attack negation are possible on the Monk: Level 2 Encounter Utility: Cat and Mouse; Level 5 Daily: Water Gives Way; Level 6 Encounter Skill Power: Timely Dodge. If you can get it, a Level 10 Neck Slot Displacement Cloak gives you +2 AC and REF and a Daily power that forces an enemy to reroll an attack and take the lower number. Monks are designed to last in bad, surrounded situations, so they have high defenses to match. You want to take advantage of this and boost them as high as you can. As well, they're certain powers that help with this. Level 1 At-Will: Fallen Needle and Level 5 Daily: Calm Before the Storm. Finally, you can get a really good nova going with three powers: The Theme power from Sarifal Feywarden which can grant +5 Lightning Vulnerability, Level 1 Encounter Power: Open the Gate of Battle; and Level 7 Encounter Power: Arc of the Flashing Storm.
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Oct 23, 2014 18:31
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I'm the leader from my group and a Serene Blade Runepriest at that. 
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Oct 23, 2014 18:43
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A Wizard with a dominate and Storm Pillar will also win PvP, no thought required. But the answer is don't do it because it's not fun and not actually reasonably possible. Whoever wins init wins the fight one-on-one; in a group, you're hosed if you're solo. They probably know your weak NAD so to-hit really should not be an issue. It's even less of an issue if they just drop action points and multiple dailies to murder your rear end. If you want to pull one over on allies, grab a pocket dimension and a portal ritual. Then steal something plot critical and gtfo. Trying to actually fight your party is a waste of time. Echophonic posted:Serene Blade Runepriest Your fellow players will have to be exceptionally bad or actively let you win for it to work.
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Oct 23, 2014 18:54
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Generic Octopus posted:A Wizard with a dominate and Storm Pillar will also win PvP, no thought required. Yeah a leader, even a tough one like a Serene Blade Runepriest, stands no chance against most pc's, especially on their own. Other roles can actually DEAL appreciable damage, even some controllers, and you just aren't made for it.
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Oct 23, 2014 19:01
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PC's hit points' scale in relation to monster attacks, not PC attacks. Meanwhile every class is balanced against a teamwork dynamic, not being self-sufficient or even necessarily interesting in a one-on-one engagement. Don't PVP in 4E.
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Oct 23, 2014 19:12
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Generic Octopus posted:If you want to pull one over on allies, grab a pocket dimension and a portal ritual. Then steal something plot critical and gtfo. Trying to actually fight your party is a waste of time. We're actually using this as our exit plan for our current adventure. But yeah, I'm convinced that PvP is not the way to go. I know it'd be a mess and not as fun as I initially thought. It just seemed appropriate, given interactions with the Avenger. Why the heck do Runepriest at wills not scale on damage at 21? That's really strange. I mean, they get some drat good encounters in Epic, but the at will falloff seems odd. Echophonic fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 23, 2014 19:40
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