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Skwirl posted:Maybe, maybe not. I don't know exactly how much time it takes to turn the Sun into a dyson sphere you affectionately refer to as "Sol's Hammer," but that's a lot of time Tony Stark didn't spend trying to figure out a way to save 616 without committing genocide. Etc. etc. for Richards, McCoy and Dr. Strange. Sol's Hammer is actually half of a Reed "thing he came up with that if built would gently caress things up real bad". It ties with Sol's Anvil which Hickman used in F4 when Reed and company were fighting the mad celestials. I would loving love to see a full Sol's Hammer/Anvil combo someday. That said, they do have the Builder's world breaker by Jupiter still. And the Rogue Planet. Honestly the "safest" solution would be to let the world know about Incursions and evacuate everyone to an Earth copy in opposite end of the orbit while leaving the original Earth around in order to find a solution and if need be, rig it with a bomb that detonates a few minutes before the incursion ends if a solution or other action isn't taken. That way you safeguard humanity (and the universe) while not immediately removing yourself from the game. Happy Noodle Boy fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Oct 18, 2014 |
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Oct 18, 2014 01:51
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Skwirl posted:Maybe, maybe not. I don't know exactly how much time it takes to turn the Sun into a dyson sphere you affectionately refer to as "Sol's Hammer," but that's a lot of time Tony Stark didn't spend trying to figure out a way to save 616 without committing genocide. Etc. etc. for Richards, McCoy and Dr. Strange. Part of the issue here is that incursions are an.. out of context problem. When the universe itself is unravelling, you can't just go into your lab and whip up a solution in the 15 minutes before an incursion. Nobody has any idea where to even slightly begin at the possibility of a solution at the time. Bombs are extremely simple for all of them to make compared to rewriting the fabric of the multiverse, and stall for time for some one in a million miracle to occur and someone being able to find a solution. Presumably, the whole time they're doing all this they're also researching the origin of incursions and all that as well, just unsuccessfully. It's like if the sun started to go supernova tommorow - where do you even start?
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Oct 18, 2014 01:56
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Wolpertinger posted:Part of the issue here is that incursions are an.. out of context problem. When the universe itself is unravelling, you can't just go into your lab and whip up a solution in the 15 minutes before an incursion. Nobody has any idea where to even slightly begin at the possibility of a solution at the time. Bombs are extremely simple for all of them to make compared to rewriting the fabric of the multiverse, and stall for time for some one in a million miracle to occur and someone being able to find a solution. Presumably, the whole time they're doing all this they're also researching the origin of incursions and all that as well, just unsuccessfully. It's like if the sun started to go supernova tommorow - where do you even start? Asking Nicolas Cage, obviously. Then hoping for angels to save some of humanity.
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Oct 18, 2014 01:58
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Sol's Hammer is actually half of a Reed "thing he came up with that if built would gently caress things up real bad". It ties with Sol's Anvil which Hickman used in F4 when Reed and company were fighting the mad celestials. My point was that repeatedly the Illuminati are shown spending huge chunks of their time coming up with weapons instead of working on solutions that don't involve killing a world. They made enough weapons of death that Thanos complimented them in Infinity on it. Any path that leads to Thanos saying nice things about you probably isn't a great path to go down.
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Oct 18, 2014 01:59
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Sol's Hammer is actually half of a Reed "thing he came up with that if built would gently caress things up real bad". It ties with Sol's Anvil which Hickman used in F4 when Reed and company were fighting the mad celestials. Actually, I'm pretty sure they said once your earth is destroyed your universe is totally isolated from the multiverse until the bitter end. Or something.
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Oct 18, 2014 02:40
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Honestly the "safest" solution would be to let the world know about Incursions and evacuate everyone to an Earth copy in opposite end of the orbit while leaving the original Earth around in order to find a solution and if need be, rig it with a bomb that detonates a few minutes before the incursion ends if a solution or other action isn't taken. That way you safeguard humanity (and the universe) while not immediately removing yourself from the game. I'm pretty sure one of the characters said in one of the issues that this doesn't work, they've observed it through the portal, and this doesn't stop it from happening to your universe. I'll crawl through the digital comics to see if I can find it.
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Oct 18, 2014 03:07
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What I meant was: - Letting the Earths collide ends BOTH universes. - Destroying one Earth spares both universes, but you lose that Earth. So you evacuate Earth while you can (making a copy of Earth is something that Reed and crew CAN do and don't you dare tell me otherwise) then deal with incursions as usual to keep yourself in the game and hopefully find a solution that solves the problem at the source. If you end up meeting mapmakers (who are actually shown to have the capacity to spare you since all they care about it new powers / Earth's resources) or something you can't handle, you give up the Earth and say you at least tried. No one dies outside of the people fighting to solve it (assuming a full evacuation was successful). There's still the urgency of needing to stay in the incursion loop in order to stop it so even if no one dies from one, you can't afford to go lightly against one. Basically, you want to remove as many casualties from the equation of an incursion loss without removing the incursions from the table.
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Oct 18, 2014 03:24
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IUG posted:I'm pretty sure one of the characters said in one of the issues that this doesn't work, they've observed it through the portal, and this doesn't stop it from happening to your universe. I'll crawl through the digital comics to see if I can find it. Destroying your own Earth stops the incursions - but it also cuts your universe off from the Multiverse, which means you no longer have any chance whatsoever at stopping whatever is destroying the multiverse. Your universe will be perfectly safe until the multiverse itself collapses, which will happen, and you can no longer do poo poo about it. (e: which is to say, Happy Noodle Boy, your solution won't work because you're cut off from the incursion cycle the moment your Earth gets destroyed, it doesn't matter if you make a copy.) It's kind of like... okay. Say you're a baseball pitcher. You really don't want to give up a home run. So you throw nothing but balls, giving up seventeen walks in an inning. You didn't give up any home runs! But you're still gonna lose the game. That's what destroying your universe's Earth accomplishes.
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Oct 18, 2014 03:26
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Nevvy Z posted:Actually, I'm pretty sure they said once your earth is destroyed your universe is totally isolated from the multiverse until the bitter end. Or something. Yes, repeatedly. In the comics and in the threads. The malevolent force powerful enough to render the multiverse kaput has called bullshit on "the only winning move is not to play" your universe will break if you play or not.
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Oct 18, 2014 03:26
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:(e: which is to say, Happy Noodle Boy, your solution won't work because you're cut off from the incursion cycle the moment your Earth gets destroyed, it doesn't matter if you make a copy.) What I'm saying is that you can still work on stopping incursions without having every single person living on Earth at risk whenever one pops up. Empty the planet, put the call out to the other empires in space and turn Earth into the incursion-stopping hub where you have EVERYONE in the universe working to fix this poo poo. Now I know why this doesn't happen (most people, including 616's own world governments choosing to simply blow up any opposite earths) but it would be neat to see a universe unite in an attempt to fix this.
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Oct 18, 2014 03:30
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Wolpertinger posted:You act like Cap's power of positive thinking is capable of pulling a solution out of his rear end with minutes left on the clock. to be fair that's basically his power except replace 'out of his rear end' with 'out of other people's asses' which is probably even more magical
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Oct 18, 2014 03:34
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:What I'm saying is that you can still work on stopping incursions without having every single person living on Earth at risk whenever one pops up. Empty the planet, put the call out to the other empires in space and turn Earth into the incursion-stopping hub where you have EVERYONE in the universe working to fix this poo poo. Well if you're cut off how are you going to help stop it? Basically if you destroy Earth you're saying "Well I hope someone else fixes it before we all die!" and then giving up.
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Oct 18, 2014 04:06
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You misunderstand him. Our earth is there and incursions are happening, there's just no risk to us short term if our cabal loses the fight to theirs.Happy Noodle Boy posted:What I'm saying is that you can still work on stopping incursions without having every single person living on Earth at risk whenever one pops up. Empty the planet, put the call out to the other empires in space and turn Earth into the incursion-stopping hub where you have EVERYONE in the universe working to fix this poo poo. At the end of the day you'd end up with a scenario in which the heroic types aren't willing to destroy an alternate earth to save their own empty one, long term multiverse collapse be damned. I do have a new solution though. A self propagating system by which Earth is replaced like in your scenario, but instead of trying to stop incursions you simply move all your evacuation and earth destruction gear to their universe, evacuate THEIR earth to a new space and destroy it, and begin the process again. Obviously multiversal collapse happens when some minimum number of universes remains, so you just have to keep as many alive as possible and hope you stay above it. The multiverse is like a car hanging from a trillion hot air balloons, and the balloons are starting to pop.  Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Oct 18, 2014 |
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Oct 18, 2014 04:08
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Deadpool posted:Well if you're cut off how are you going to help stop it? Basically if you destroy Earth you're saying "Well I hope someone else fixes it before we all die!" and then giving up. Yeah. You have essentially locked yourself in a burning house and are hoping the firefighters get there in time.
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Oct 18, 2014 04:11
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Deadpool posted:Well if you're cut off how are you going to help stop it? Basically if you destroy Earth you're saying "Well I hope someone else fixes it before we all die!" and then giving up. I think he's trying to say that A. You dont' blow up your own world, you just evacuate off of it and B. you keep blowing up other worlds. With your world still existing, you're still in the incursion game, but if you LOSE - which is definitely a big possibility considering how nasty the people they've seen fighting so far are, you don't lose the entire population of earth and get knocked out of the game instead. Of course, at this point you're commiting genocide for the entire purpose of trying to stay in the genocide game instead of to protect your universe/planet, so I can't really see it happening. Still, I can't help but think that the solution where earth gets destroyed and that universe lives is considerably healthier for the fabric of the multiverse than the two universes colliding and utterly annihilating each other. Here's one solution that requires near absolute omniscient power over all universes : copy all earths, move all earth populations to new planet, destroy all original earths. Problem solved. 
Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Oct 18, 2014 |
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Oct 18, 2014 04:12
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Nevvy Z posted:The multiverse is like a car hanging from a trillion hot air balloons, and the balloons are starting to pop. If the Marvel multiverse is infinite at least it'll take forever.
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Oct 18, 2014 05:21
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Fuckstick Electric posted:If the Marvel multiverse is infinite at least it'll take forever. It isn't anymore.
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Oct 18, 2014 05:29
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:It isn't anymore. Exactly the latest issue had Sunspot tell Thor that the probe they had sent through had crossed HALF of the span of the entire Multiverse. So it can be assumed its collapsing at a faster rate on itself. Interesting thought for this span of Avengers/New Avengers at some point we stopped reading about the 616 and have been reading a parallel but very similar world. And in the end they do indeed all die only to have 616 reveal they've found out how to stop the early death of the Multiverse. Jiro fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Oct 18, 2014 |
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Oct 18, 2014 07:01
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Jiro posted:Exactly the latest issue had Sunspot tell Thor that the probe they had sent through had crossed HALF of the span of the entire Multiverse. So it can be assumed its collapsing at a faster rate on itself. that seems like a cop out but also the massive shift in characters and whatnot going in with AXIS and the time jump and whatever else is sending me spinning so i'd accept it since it'd mean poo poo would make sense again instead of 'WHAT IS HAPPENING???'
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Oct 18, 2014 08:58
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The other thing about the Incursions is not just that it's causing a vague death of the Multiverse that will happen at some future point.The 616 is beginning to wither and die in a manner that defies all logical explanation. (Suns just winking out of existence.) It's not too much of a stretch to assume that is happening in all the other universes, even ones which have blown up their Earth. The Incursions are a huge threat, one that can't be fled from. All that being said, I am convinced that there is a solution that doesn't involving killing people who are unaware that they are in a Cosmic version of Danganronpa. And that the future of all the Universe's shouldn't be decided by seven 1%ers who think that they and they alone should shoulder this burden.
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Oct 18, 2014 13:09
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Any time I try to get into the premise at all I just end up realizing how stupid it is to give superheroes a no win scenario that can't be solved without huge moral compromises. Like you know in the first Spider-man movie when the Green Goblin drops that busload of orphans and MJ and tells Spider-man he can only save one? And then Spider-man saves both because he's a superhero? This entire premise is like that on a grander scale, but instead of manning up and doing the impossible, the heroes are just whining at each other about what sacrifices need to be made.
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Oct 18, 2014 13:35
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The Question IRL posted:
Yeah, I bet the Illuminati are going to end up having missed something fundamental that could have nipped this all in the bud if they hadn't been so arrogant and secretive, or something along those lines, but I wouldn't say they're villains like some people have said - it's an impossible situation and they did what they could to save as many lives as possible within the rules of the game they knew, and I can see their logic in why a global announcement leading to worldwide panic isn't something they'd want to do, or leaving it to Cap if they thought it would lead to the inevitable death of everything. Lurdiak posted:Any time I try to get into the premise at all I just end up realizing how stupid it is to give superheroes a no win scenario that can't be solved without huge moral compromises. Like you know in the first Spider-man movie when the Green Goblin drops that busload of orphans and MJ and tells Spider-man he can only save one? And then Spider-man saves both because he's a superhero? This entire premise is like that on a grander scale, but instead of manning up and doing the impossible, the heroes are just whining at each other about what sacrifices need to be made. Overcoming the impossible is great and all, but having all situations be 100% solvable without any difficult decisions or serious loss every single time isn't very interesting. Saving the universe from multiversal collapse is pretty drat fantastic feat by itself. The whole point of this story is setting up a situation where there isn't a magic third option that can wave away the problem without having to make a painful decision, to see how the characters tick when forced to do something awful. Pushing the characters so far is what makes this an interesting story. If it was a story where they magically whipped up a solution in a lab without a single innocent life being hurt it would be honestly a spectacularly boring story. Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Oct 18, 2014 |
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Oct 18, 2014 13:41
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Lurdiak posted:Any time I try to get into the premise at all I just end up realizing how stupid it is to give superheroes a no win scenario that can't be solved without huge moral compromises. Like you know in the first Spider-man movie when the Green Goblin drops that busload of orphans and MJ and tells Spider-man he can only save one? And then Spider-man saves both because he's a superhero? This entire premise is like that on a grander scale, but instead of manning up and doing the impossible, the heroes are just whining at each other about what sacrifices need to be made. Yeah this would have been much more interesting if Captain America had just played the National Anthem and punched incursions in the face.
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Oct 18, 2014 15:34
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Senor Candle posted:Yeah this would have been much more interesting if Captain America had just played the National Anthem and punched incursions in the face. It probably would be. And less drawn out as well. Also everyone would stop being so loving whiny. "boo hoo my decision making is bad and leads to bad things, woe is me".
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Oct 18, 2014 15:35
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CharlestheHammer posted:It probably would be. Well you can just imagine that's what happened and not read it then.
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Oct 18, 2014 15:38
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Senor Candle posted:Well you can just imagine that's what happened and not read it then. Yeah that is what I did. Though its hilarious you are using this argument. As its a terrible one, you see.
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Oct 18, 2014 15:39
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It's really cool how people who don't like Hickman's run just constantly poo poo on the very concept of a superhero not being able to do whatever the gently caress they want at any time because they're a superhero and have good intentions, and that there isn't room for multiple ways to tell stories of superpowered individuals, including situations where there might not be any good option that magically saves the day and everyone is happy forever. It's really cool and leads to a ton of interesting discussion.
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Oct 18, 2014 16:20
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Hakkesshu posted:It's really cool how people who don't like Hickman's run just constantly poo poo on the very concept of a superhero not being able to do whatever the gently caress they want at any time because they're a superhero and have good intentions, and that there isn't room for multiple ways to tell stories of superpowered individuals, including situations where there might not be any good option that magically saves the day and everyone is happy forever. Sophomoric morality discussion is super interesting. A thing I have learned today, don't believe it tho. edit: Okay to be fair, its not even that, it wishes it could be that.
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Oct 18, 2014 16:24
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Mediator and aficionado of thought-provoking internet discussion, Charlesthehammer, a.k.a. The Maestro
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Oct 18, 2014 16:30
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Hakkesshu posted:Mediator and aficionado of thought-provoking internet discussion, Charlesthehammer, a.k.a. The Maestro Are you not doing the same thing by saying what is as well? The only difference is that our positions are reversed. I find nothing thought provoking about poor attempts at making unwinnable situations, while you find nothing thought provoking about a situation where a hero uses every last bit of himself to find a victory in a situation where the odds of that happening seemed outright impossible. So I would think it would be impossible for someone to come off hypocritical within one post, but ya did it. You are the traditional superhero of this forum.
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Oct 18, 2014 16:34
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I never said the opposite can't be thought-provoking, I said there's room for multiple ways to tell stories about superheroes; one is in fact just as valid as the other, conceptually. That's my problem, superheroes are a template, not a ruleset.
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Oct 18, 2014 16:36
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Hakkesshu posted:I never said the opposite can't be thought-provoking, I said there's room for multiple ways to tell stories about superheroes; one is in fact just as valid as the other, conceptually. That's my problem, superheroes are a template, not a ruleset. Maybe, but I don't agree, I think it goes against the very concept of a superhero, this isn't the kind of world they belong in, as it just looks so silly. I have never argued my opinion is the correct one or only correct one.
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Oct 18, 2014 16:45
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CharlestheHammer posted:Maybe, but I don't agree, I think it goes against the very concept of a superhero, this isn't the kind of world they belong in, as it just looks so silly. You have been, actually, by making GBS threads all over not just the concept of the story, but discussion of it. When you start making shitposts in the thread about how sarcastically interesting discussion is, you are implying that your opinion is the only right one and people don't even need to talk about this because you don't like it.
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Oct 18, 2014 17:33
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Defiance Industries posted:You have been, actually, by making GBS threads all over not just the concept of the story, but discussion of it. When you start making shitposts in the thread about how sarcastically interesting discussion is, you are implying that your opinion is the only right one and people don't even need to talk about this because you don't like it. I assume you are also talking to hak as well, as he did it as well. Though saying a discussion is not interesting is not saying your opinion is correct, it is just an opinion don't be stupid. edit: Though I guess you could argue from the position that we all view our own opinions are correct but that would be dumb as well. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Oct 18, 2014 |
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Oct 18, 2014 17:43
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If you don't find a discussion interesting, what is the point in being involved other than trying to get people to stop discussion? Usually people simply decline to participate.
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Oct 18, 2014 17:52
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I wasn't participating in that particular argument, I was participating in a different one. Hak made a snide remark, I made one back. It is how arguments tend to go on the internet.
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Oct 18, 2014 18:02
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Lurdiak posted:Any time I try to get into the premise at all I just end up realizing how stupid it is to give superheroes a no win scenario that can't be solved without huge moral compromises. Like you know in the first Spider-man movie when the Green Goblin drops that busload of orphans and MJ and tells Spider-man he can only save one? And then Spider-man saves both because he's a superhero? This entire premise is like that on a grander scale, but instead of manning up and doing the impossible, the heroes are just whining at each other about what sacrifices need to be made. The idea that superheroes should always have an easy out all the time comes off to me as really boring and kinda cowardly. I would much rather see a writer explore a character's faults than another boring "feel-good" story where the power fantasy inherent in superhero comics is kept intact. Also Spider-Man probably isn't the best example, considering he had the first big "superhero fails to save the day" story and all.
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Oct 18, 2014 19:09
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Sol's Hammer is actually half of a Reed "thing he came up with that if built would gently caress things up real bad". It ties with Sol's Anvil which Hickman used in F4 when Reed and company were fighting the mad celestials. Future Franklin told Cap in the issue where he ended up at the end of time that stalling efforts like the Rogue Planet don't work.
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Oct 18, 2014 22:40
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muscles like this? posted:Future Franklin told Cap in the issue where he ended up at the end of time that stalling efforts like the Rogue Planet don't work.
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Oct 18, 2014 23:04
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redbackground posted:something simple like "Oh, just swap out the Earth!" <3 comic books <3
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Oct 18, 2014 23:21
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