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Morter posted:You know, I'm not trying to argue or even join in this conversation but despite the fact that the game had Vita-Chambers, I used the save feature and loaded whenever I died. It was never any less tense for me, because I tried to avoid dying, and I enjoyed the game's atmosphere. I still had trouble with enemies, and I still got spooked by certain things. Never did I even think "Oh yeah well I can obviously reload if I die so there's no big deal! It's cool you enjoyed the game anyway, but I still feel like the game missed a trick by including them. Not the game's main focus anyway and it builds atmosphere decently regardless because Bioshock isn't really a horror game but I can't help but feel there was some missed potential there. or maybe the game would've just been mad frustrating without it, I dunno SelenicMartian posted:As opposed to the console versions where you can simply backtrack to the save point at almost any time. Except for all those times when you're whisked to spooky dark world without warning (which happens like all the loving time) and need to find the save point before you eat one too many hits to the noggin. SH does have pretty frequent save points but saying you can backtrack at all times is kinda just wrong. There's lots of big-ish areas with save points in one location, so you have to survive the trip back and forth. I do think there's a reason most of the good old survival horror games do manual saves and not quick saves. SuccinctAndPunchy fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Oct 18, 2014 |
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Oct 18, 2014 16:16
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SuccinctAndPunchy posted:Do you have any idea how much tension and fear a game loses when it gives you that ability? quote:All the fear fades away when you can bumblefuck into a scary situation with zero fear of consequence because you just slap the quickload key and everything's back to normal? Things need consequence in a horror game to instil tension into your every decision, to cultivate that doubt and nervousness about doing anything that builds a strong atmosphere. Having the ability to make all of the decisions free from the consequences chucks all of what makes a horror game an exciting experience right out the loving window. quote:Go play the PC silent hill games (they allow quicksaving) and slap the quicksave key every two seconds and tell me those games don't just get the tension sucked right out of them when there is zero consequence for your actions. Go play Bioshock 1, which is actually pretty spooky and tense right until you realise that Vita Chambers are a thing then the game ceases to be difficult or challenging in the slightest. Slowly chipping away at monster HP with your everlasting wrench in a no-lose scenario is one thing; quick saving is another, and it does not chip away at the fog and shadows and ambient noises of the mood in a way that would parallel that FPS design. So no, I would not say that the (potentially) trivial nature of the Bioshock enemies removed the spooky and tense mood. Why? Because the having to fight them was never part of the spookiness to begin with — seeing these creatures walk around in the wrecked environment and slowly learning what they are and why was, and that is something completely different. quote:I honestly don't think you'd like the game even if it did have quicksaving.
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Oct 18, 2014 16:18
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Tippis posted:Zero? I...okay? I don't really understand what you get out of playing a horror game in this case but whatever man. Maybe I've just got brain problems or something but I genuinely just don't get how a game can be actually scary like that, if nothing you do really matters all that much, how does the game have tension? Tension being something of an essential component of a horror game, I don't see why it's not okay for it to incorporate that as part of its core design while it remains okay and essential for a game like say...Dark Souls or something to use a limited saving-esque sort of system as part of its design, like okay I'm aware the two aren't identical systems but whatever basically I'm trying to say limiting the saving system is sometimes an intentional part of the design of the game and saying broadly that there's no compelling reason to not have QS in a game is...confusing. like for real man help me out here because I genuinely don't get your line of thinking, how do you experience fear like this? Fear is a response to a threat and poo poo, if there is no actual threat to the player then how can there be fear? you think different and this confuse the poster quote:I dislike repetitive tedium. either I'm not grasping something or you're framing having to re-do anything because you didn't do it right the first time as repetitive tedium, which is not something I can be down with.
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Oct 18, 2014 16:34
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Let's talk facts for a change instead of some theorising. Alien:Isolation has a pause at any time including cutscenes which means that yes you can go do that thing you wan to do "right there for 5 minutes". After the opening bits the cutscenes are extremely short so there's no need for some crazy skipping, main transitions do have loading screens anyway. The game isn't only scary because of the saving system, I don't know what rear end the guy who posted about it pulled this from. It just puts you in a position where you have to get to a certain point on the map to save, just like hundreds of games that do the same thing by having save points. This isn't a new or original idea. The game also does the same thing by giving you actual goals on the map. I get it, if manual save points in games ruin your immersion, are frustrating or don't allow you to stop playing right then and there then this isn't a game for you just like other titles that do this. Still this doesn't ruin this title, it's neatly incorporated as a game mechanic and doesn' feel cheap but rather tense.
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Oct 18, 2014 16:38
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SuccinctAndPunchy posted:SH does have pretty frequent save points but saying you can backtrack at all times is kinda just wrong.
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Oct 18, 2014 16:38
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Palpek posted:The game isn't only scary because of the saving system, I don't know what rear end the guy who posted about it pulled this from. I have nothing to say about the new Alien game specifically as I've never played it.
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Oct 18, 2014 16:47
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ZearothK posted:I did. Did you put in your info on this page? Thanks. I missed that somehow!
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Oct 18, 2014 16:53
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SuccinctAndPunchy posted:I...okay? I don't really understand what you get out of playing a horror game in this case but whatever man. Maybe I've just got brain problems or something but I genuinely just don't get how a game can be actually scary like that, if nothing you do really matters all that much, how does the game have tension? I dunno dude I think your brain might actually be broken if you derive tension out of horror games not from the atmosphere and horrifying situations but from the worry that you'll have to replay the last 30 minutes.
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Oct 18, 2014 16:58
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GENDERWEIRD GREEDO posted:I dunno dude I think your brain might actually be broken if you derive tension out of horror games not from the atmosphere and horrifying situations but from the worry that you'll have to replay the last 30 minutes. atmosphere is created partly through tension of which I don't see how there can be all that much tension if there's no consequence as a result of something. Like, it doesn't have to be replaying the last 30 minutes but having there be nothing at all because you can just blip back to the last point in time when everything was all peachy seems like it would suck most of the tension out of the experience. less of this disingenuous poo poo please, you know what I mean, don't be dumb.
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Oct 18, 2014 17:02
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SuccinctAndPunchy posted:less of this disingenuous poo poo please, you know what I mean, don't be dumb. Obviously you process these as the same thing which is fine nobody cares if that's how you enjoy it. Your inability to accept that others don't process that tension in that way and would rather have a convenient feature is the problem here.
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Oct 18, 2014 17:08
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Palpek posted:Let's talk facts for a change instead of some theorising. Just stop it with your common sense and facts Palpek. This is a Steam thread on SA.
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Oct 18, 2014 17:08
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Though as Darkhold said, having to repeat stuff because you keep dying and the save points are further back really ruins the atmosphere because the surprise and tension wear off. That balancing act is why great horror games are really tricky to pull off.
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Oct 18, 2014 17:08
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SuccinctAndPunchy posted:I...okay? I don't really understand what you get out of playing a horror game in this case but whatever man. Maybe I've just got brain problems or something but I genuinely just don't get how a game can be actually scary like that, if nothing you do really matters all that much, how does the game have tension? Tension being something of an essential component of a horror game, I don't see why it's not okay for it to incorporate that as part of its core design while it remains okay and essential for a game like say...Dark Souls or something to use a limited saving-esque sort of system as part of its design, like okay I'm aware the two aren't identical systems but whatever basically I'm trying to say limiting the saving system is sometimes an intentional part of the design of the game and saying broadly that there's no compelling reason to not have QS in a game is...confusing. At the end of the day, you still have to succeed at whatever it is you're trying to do and that either way, that is only where part of the tension lies. Unless the game is really badly designed quicksaving will not remove that part and as others have pointed out, can just as easily trap you in an unwinnable situation. Yet another, possibly even larger, part of the tension lies in the uncertainty and ambiguity the game offers. Quicksaving only ruins that part if the game is very deterministic and/or heavily scripted. Onoz, you heard a loud noise, quicksave! Now, slowly peek around the corner… oh it was nothing. And then you die for some unrelated reason. So you reload and walk around the corner and die horribly, shockingly, and instantly because this time, the roll of the die decided that the monster you (probably) heard wouldn't move away. Now, what will happen when reload and try again…? Is it suddenly less tense to go around that corner just because you quicksaved? If you get (and retain) perfect information from before you reload to afterwards, then sure, some of that tension goes away, but there is nothing to suggest that this information has to be perfect. What happens if the game starts to learn what you do the same way you're trying to learn what the game does…? Granted, those two parts will heavily depend on the genre and type of game. In some, strict determinism and a complete capture of the game state is required to reduce save scrumming. CRPGs where you can't reload to get a better die roll would be one example, and the tension of execution and ambiguity of outcomes become reliant on completely different things. And then there's just good storytelling and presentation. Some sights and reveals are just inherently creepy. This will arguably go away with repetition, but that repetition will happen regardless of what kind of savepoint you go back to. Even then, if you (quick)save beyond that spot, you won't see it again so the impact won't be diminshed for your next play-through, as opposed to (say) a checkpoint or, worse, having to repeat an entire map between tries as some games force you to. quote:either I'm not grasping something or you're framing having to re-do anything because you didn't do it right the first time as repetitive tedium, which is not something I can be down with. Yes, if the designer is really putting the effort in, checkpoints can be made to work that way but really, why bother at that point? All they're doing is figuring out the natural quicksave spots anyway so why not let the player control them? Tippis fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Oct 18, 2014 |
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Oct 18, 2014 17:12
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The terror of losing your invested gameplay time is important when you factor in the purchase price/hours played equation. This is also why I can't play multiplayer arena FPS' any more, it fucks with the whole dynami
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Oct 18, 2014 17:16
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so I could say that I finally figured out what this god damned cube is doing. Get well Lowtax.
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I love the tension of deciding whether you should explore a little bit more or turn back around to save/get supplies/whatever, it's why I love Metroidvania games and why I think I would like Alien Isolation...except that I can't take scary games anymore.
Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Oct 18, 2014 |
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Oct 18, 2014 17:18
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Darkhold posted:Obviously you process these as the same thing which is fine nobody cares if that's how you enjoy it. Your inability to accept that others don't process that tension in that way and would rather have a convenient feature is the problem here. It's not inability to accept, but more I had a hard time grasping the mindset. Different things. Tippis posted:Simple: because failing and dying is still failing and dying. Quicksaving does not remove that. You still fail and die. You still have to go back to an earlier point (with all that this entails in terms of pulling you out of the game and shattering your suspension of disbelief). You still have to get out of the sticky situation you're in. this post on the other hand makes a lot of sense to me. Eh, sorry for being stupid.
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Oct 18, 2014 17:26
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i wish i could quick load myself and just hit go to last post rather than reading the last 2 pages
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Oct 18, 2014 17:31
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Awesome! posted:i wish i could quick load myself and just hit go to last post rather than reading the last 2 pages ....but ~*immersion*~
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Oct 18, 2014 17:36
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I do not buy games that dont have quicksave for the most part.. I have a life and sometimes I think I have an hour to play but get pulled away in twenty. I don't want to lose my progress because my kid woke up and then I want to go to bed.
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Oct 18, 2014 17:49
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computer parts posted:Put checkpoints everywhere convenient (i.e., anywhere there's not a fight). That's how a bunch of games like the Lego series and Batman does it and it works just fine. They're not exactly tense or horror games, though.
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Oct 18, 2014 18:11
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Checkpoints/No Checkpoints in a horror game, pixel games, games as 'art', gamergate All utterly worthless topics of discussion
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Oct 18, 2014 18:20
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lordfrikk posted:They're not exactly tense or horror games, though. Not everybody has a solid uninterrupted hour in a day to make a lovely scarecam youtube or whatever you do with a horror game. Save anywhere/frequent checkpoints/sleep mode are absolutely mandatory for me and for most people in any game. It's like not having a pause option at this point.
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Oct 18, 2014 18:26
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Drifter posted:Checkpoints/No Checkpoints in a horror game, pixel games, games as 'art', gamergate You forgot the fantasy RPG slapfight.
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Oct 18, 2014 18:33
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Alien Isolation is the new Spec Ops The Line.
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Oct 18, 2014 18:46
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Since we're talking about it, the only scary parts of Dead Space after you get a weapon were the parts where it fucks with you at the save stations, with the one necromorph who's just standing behind you after using one and the immortal regenerating thing that punches through the door after you 'escape' from it and go to try to use the nearby save station. And also how my game bugged out and no enemies spawned in the last level of the game until I went into my inventory and a necromorph fell on my head, but that doesn't really count. 
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Oct 18, 2014 18:47
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Justin_Brett posted:You forgot the fantasy RPG slapfight. I am always ready and willing to defend my stance on FF8 being the best of the Final Fantasies 13 and under. 
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Oct 18, 2014 18:49
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New Concept Hole posted:Alien Isolation is the new Spec Ops The Line.
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Oct 18, 2014 18:49
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Samurai Sanders posted:It has bad gameplay but subverts the genre narrative-wise? Specs is a serviceable cover shooter. Though I think he was talking about the goon reaction.
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Oct 18, 2014 18:53
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Justin_Brett posted:You forgot the fantasy RPG slapfight. Hey, FF7 had a fantasy RPG slapfight and it was arguably one of the funnest scenes in the history of Final Fantasy
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Oct 18, 2014 18:53
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Samurai Sanders posted:It has bad gameplay but subverts the genre narrative-wise? CharlestheHammer posted:Though I think he was talking about the goon reaction. I was, but Samurai Sanders is right, the comparison doesn't quite fit. Alien Isolation is the new Gone Home.
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Oct 18, 2014 18:56
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I don't know what the goon reaction was, I played it a while after launch when it became free on PS+. Is there something to think about it other than "mediocre game but interesting story ideas"?
Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Oct 18, 2014 |
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Oct 18, 2014 18:58
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Palpek posted:Let's talk facts for a change instead of some theorising. poo poo, here's what's wrong with the last handful of pages: everyone involved keeps mistaking their opinions for facts.
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Oct 18, 2014 18:59
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Samurai Sanders posted:I don't know what the goon reaction was, I played it a while launch when it became free on PS+. Is there something to think about it other than "mediocre game but interesting story ideas"?
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Oct 18, 2014 19:04
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Accordion Man posted:Eh, it just gets overhyped just because video games are in such dire need of any kind of decent writing that people lauded so much, even though its poor man's a knockoff of Heart of Darkness/Apocalypse Now that's rather stuck up its own rear end and really doesn't make use of the interactivity that games can have.
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Oct 18, 2014 19:05
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People argue and get very angry about it for increasingly silly reasons. Though so far, a lot of the people bellowing about Alien haven't even played the loving game so there's always a new wrinkle
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Oct 18, 2014 19:06
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Samurai Sanders posted:Yeah, but I still think the military shooter genre needed that. I don't know if the people who needed to hear it heard it though.
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Oct 18, 2014 19:06
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Drifter posted:I am always ready and willing to defend my stance on FF8 being the best of the Final Fantasies 13 and under. It's the best of all the Final Fantasies, period.
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Oct 18, 2014 19:06
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Freak Futanari posted:It's the best of all the Final Fantasies, period.
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Oct 18, 2014 19:06
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So I'm at the first episode of Walking Dead, at the part where Shawn's stuck under the tractor. How exactly do I get him out from there, if I can? I hope not too many of the choices are like this.
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Oct 18, 2014 19:08
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Accordion Man posted:No that's 2. I do admit that FF2 was pretty unique for being one of the earliest games to utilize the "learn by doing" levelling style that would later be popularized in games such as Oblivion.
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Oct 18, 2014 19:08
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