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People in the US are way too eager to talk about how terrible the US is. Come live in an actually corrupt and incompetent country and you'll gain a new appreciation for how well the US actually functions on the whole. I mean, if New York's infrastructure had been built in China we'd have had to tear it out and rebuild a few times by now due to code violations incompetence and predatory eminent domain practices.
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Oct 19, 2014 03:31
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Arglebargle III posted:People in the US are way too eager to talk about how terrible the US is. Come live in an actually corrupt and incompetent country and you'll gain a new appreciation for how well the US actually functions on the whole. I mean, if New York's infrastructure had been built in China we'd have had to tear it out and rebuild a few times by now due to code violations incompetence and predatory eminent domain practices. Bitching about our lives defines every aspect of being American. Especially the parts that contradict that.
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Oct 19, 2014 03:41
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KORNOLOGY posted:Bitching about our lives defines every aspect of being American. Especially the parts that contradict that. Or to put it another way, no one in the US really disputes American exceptionalism, just what direction it lies in.
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Oct 19, 2014 04:43
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Arglebargle III posted:People in the US are way too eager to talk about how terrible the US is. Come live in an actually corrupt and incompetent country and you'll gain a new appreciation for how well the US actually functions on the whole. I mean, if New York's infrastructure had been built in China we'd have had to tear it out and rebuild a few times by now due to code violations incompetence and predatory eminent domain practices. This is really disingenuous. You can bitch about the shortcomings of a country and want them addressed while simultaneously understanding that you've got it pretty good. Complacency is the enemy of success, after all. Now if someone straight up tried to say "the US is the worst country on the planet" then feel free to drop them in a farming village in North Korea and see how quickly they change their tune. But otherwise there's no valid issue with people bringing up what the US does wrong.
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Oct 19, 2014 05:00
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Esroc posted:This is really disingenuous. You can bitch about the shortcomings of a country and want them addressed while simultaneously understanding that you've got it pretty good. Complacency is the enemy of success, after all. Where does "The US is a third world country because it does [thing that most of Europe does too]" fall?
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Oct 19, 2014 05:04
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computer parts posted:Where does "The US is a third world country because it does [thing that most of Europe does too]" fall? I see the third world comment dropped pretty often, that much is true. On really random rear end issues to boot. I mean, come on guys, really?
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Oct 19, 2014 05:06
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computer parts posted:Where does "The US is a third world country because it does [thing that most of Europe does too]" fall? It's true. Among rich countries the US is mediocre at best in many areas. I don't think most of the liberals who push the "America sucks" viewpoint care all that much about non-rich countries, and to be honest I don't really think there's anything wrong with that. It's reasonable to expect the US to be better than countries significantly poorer than it The words "third world" are maybe a little hyperbolic, but again, the base sentiment is true. If you're saying it hurts the feelings of or is disrespectful to actual third worlders fine, I guess, but I don't really care that much sorry
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Oct 19, 2014 05:16
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Onion Knight posted:Are... are you sure you went to South Korea? On Earth? Reunification doesn't mean the South has to open the borders to mass migration immediately. It would make a lot more sense to maintain the DMZ as an internal border and run the North as defacto colony for the next few decades. Letting the Chinese set up a Korean "Autonomous" zone would be politically untenable.
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Oct 19, 2014 05:42
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Esroc posted:This is really disingenuous. You can bitch about the shortcomings of a country and want them addressed while simultaneously understanding that you've got it pretty good. Complacency is the enemy of success, after all. Quite fair, but I live in China and get tired of rightists in the US and Chinese nationalists taking cheap shots like "look how slow the US builds infrastructure" when you know graft is what those projects are really about and what the US rightists are really after anyway.
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Oct 19, 2014 06:17
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Arglebargle III posted:Quite fair, but I live in China and get tired of rightists in the US and Chinese nationalists taking cheap shots like "look how slow the US builds infrastructure" when you know graft is what those projects are really about and what the US rightists are really after anyway. I can assure you I am neither and would really like the US to improve their infrastructure process as much as possible, I just do not think the US is presently in any position to rebuild NK while our own house is in such disorder politically about such things with conservative and libertarian anti competency sentiments.
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Oct 19, 2014 07:22
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Charlz Guybon posted:Reunification doesn't mean the South has to open the borders to mass migration immediately. It would make a lot more sense to maintain the DMZ as an internal border and run the North as defacto colony for the next few decades. I don't think SK leaders will be that stupid and let China exert intense influrence over NK if and when NK government collapse. Changing the younger generations opinion is easy. SK citizens are some of the most patriotic people I know. The SK media will go super drive to make the young people support the reunification cause when SK have the chance to make a difference. In other news, Fat Kim showed up again in NK state media, visiting a show housing project, with a pimp cane in hand.
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Oct 19, 2014 13:08
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icantfindaname posted:It's true. Among rich countries the US is mediocre at best in many areas. I don't think most of the liberals who push the "America sucks" viewpoint care all that much about non-rich countries, and to be honest I don't really think there's anything wrong with that. It's reasonable to expect the US to be better than countries significantly poorer than it "The US is a third world country because you treat minorities like poo poo." *Elects a literal Nazi party*
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Oct 19, 2014 14:10
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Charlz Guybon posted:Reunification doesn't mean the South has to open the borders to mass migration immediately. It would make a lot more sense to maintain the DMZ as an internal border and run the North as defacto colony for the next few decades. How would that, politically, be tenable? How would South Koreans justify it to themselves, let alone the international community? Plus, how would it not build up incredible resentment among the (former) North Koreans? On the US infrastructure derail: Yes, yes, yes, the US could do infrastructure better, but how many of those complaining consider: A. The scale of the country, including a diversity of climate and topology virtually all European countries couldn't hope to overcome; B. The multiplicity of political authorities you'd have to please (from local governments to state governments to the federal government, they all have a say on infrastructure projects in their jurisdictions); C. The fact that money is finite? I mean, seriously. Yes the US could use higher-quality road materials (for example) and pay construction contracts on performance standards, not just "it's built, here's your money". But the problem is, all that adds up over millions of miles of roads to become cost-prohibitive. Even if you get away from roads to rail or stuff, or even non-transport infrastructure, the same points remain. Fundamentally, if you want to redo the US's infrastructure, you would need more money than all levels of the government combined can feasibly raise. (Which is not to say that more money shouldn't be put into infrastructure. More money should go there, absolutely. But I don't know that it's realistic to expect European-style roads or rail, for example, on a scale as large as the US. On a lot of levels, the fact that infrastructure has been built on such a scale, and maintained, is an achievement in and of itself.)
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Oct 19, 2014 17:14
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I think a lot of the US-centric bitching is because the society very prominently functions on the bones of two massive infrastructure efforts (WW2 + interstate highways) and the national mythos is also all about massive projects (Marshall Plan, the moon, the Internet) transforming the country in one generation or less. Meanwhile, nothing except the latter has visibly been done in fifty years and bridges are falling down, sometimes with cars on them. It's not wrong to say the country could do better and faster, but yes, a lot of the comparison to Europe comes off artificially poorly due to the fact that continental Europe's infrastructure is both newer(!) and originally built with US money. The other thing is that while massive, high profile projects are much harder to do now, run of the mill construction is still much better. Your typical UK 3BR house is half the size of a US version and comes with appliances that are also half the size, the drainage is unreliable and the heating drastically varies based on what floor you're on - and I'm talking about the newer stuff here. This tells me the problem is on the macro scale and fixable if the political will ever exists again. [It also helps that 45 of the 50 states don't *really* care about illegal immigration and the resulting cheap labor costs, as opposed to the UK literally electing fascists on the completely unfounded suggestion that too many Bulgarians are completely legally showing up.]
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Oct 19, 2014 17:37
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Spacewolf posted:How would that, politically, be tenable? How would South Koreans justify it to themselves, let alone the international community? Plus, how would it not build up incredible resentment among the (former) North Koreans? Not to be the fly in the ointment, but I'd say the entire Nork population has been conditioned to hate and condemn South Korea already through intprop. The only way they'd be even further pressed into this false vendeta would be for Park Geun-hye to take a steaming dump into Dear Leader's gaping mouth.
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Oct 19, 2014 17:41
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Charlz Guybon posted:Reunification doesn't mean the South has to open the borders to mass migration immediately. It would make a lot more sense to maintain the DMZ as an internal border and run the North as defacto colony for the next few decades. The DMZ is going to be a de facto border for a very long time due to the need to clear out the dangerous minefields and other such things, plus there will probably be a desire to change it from its current de facto natural reserve park status resulting from being no man's land into an actual national park with only minimal crossings to restore rail/road connections at full capacity. Spacewolf posted:How would that, politically, be tenable? How would South Koreans justify it to themselves, let alone the international community? Plus, how would it not build up incredible resentment among the (former) North Koreans? Among other things, East Germans had free movement pretty immediately due to the fact that East German infrastructure and such was actually in really decent shape, including the several land corridors from West Germany to West Berlin with well maintained rail and road. Not to mention East Germans generally having a decent ownership level of cars, even if they were lovely cars. Free movement for North Koreans? The ones with the capability to freely get to South Korea assuming we wake up tomorrow morning with the NK government unilaterally surrendering to South Korea and allowing free movement, etc - they're primarily going to be the very highest classes in North Korean society, the ones who not only get to have a car but can afford fuel in general. For the public at large, you're going to have a few people able to hitch rides on the few commercial vehicles around. Everyone else is going to have to walk, essentially, and given North Korean population centers most of them are going to be 40 hour or more walks to the SK border. How far can you expect people to walk in a day when they're already not exactly overfed at best, and close to eating just enough to get by at worst? How many people would really feel safe enough to risk leaving someplace that for the time being they can at least get by, to undertake a journey with little but the clothes on their back, across often quite rugged terrain, with little guarantee of getting supplies on the way?
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Oct 19, 2014 17:55
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whatever7 posted:I don't think SK leaders will be that stupid and let China exert intense influrence over NK if and when NK government collapse. Plus doesn't the SK constitution basically say they're the legitimate, true government of Korea? I've read that their Supreme Court has basically ruled as such and any NK defector is basically entitled to ROK citizenship. The SK government would probably have an obligation to tell China to gently caress off in that scenario.
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Oct 19, 2014 18:53
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It's a bold thing for a country like Korea to tell China to gently caress off, even with America's backing. There'll almost certainly be some delicate negotiations between Chinese, American and Korean envoys about exactly how North Korea gets integrated, and more than a few "understandings" will be reached. I'd find it hard to believe China would even want North Korea as a special autonomous zone though, this isn't like picking up Hong Kong.
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Oct 19, 2014 19:39
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I would personally expect Chinese control to be limited to within a few miles of their border, and that pretty much just to reduce refugee influx.
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Oct 19, 2014 19:45
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computer parts posted:Where does "The US is a third world country because it does [thing that most of Europe does too]" fall? Do most European countries let their citizens die because they cannot pay for healthcare?
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Oct 19, 2014 20:52
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whatever7 posted:Changing the younger generations opinion is easy. SK citizens are some of the most patriotic people I know. The SK media will go super drive to make the young people support the reunification cause when SK have the chance to make a difference. Fat loving chance. SK students are taught since kindergarten that reunification is the wonderful glorious future that we need to work for and once we heal that wound everything will be good forever. The schools I used to teach at did yearly plays for the parents about reunification. There are TV specials where poor old ladies talk about reunification with tears in their eyes. Short of trotting out Girls' Generation to sing songs about reunification* they're doing just about everything they can to push the one Korea = good Korea angle and absolutely no one is buying it. Surprise! Everyone is too concerned about getting a decent job or making rent or trying to get laid. Exactly like everyone else. Turns out you can't "make young people support" a vision of the future where their and their children's generation will be even more completely economically devastated in order to get a cleaner map and some gypsum mines by 2080 or whatever. Between this one and the China thread you really seem to love posting out and out bullshit. *this won't work either because the only people who actually watch k-pop are lonely white people and older korean perverts
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Oct 20, 2014 13:51
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Rand alPaul posted:Do most European countries let their citizens die because they cannot pay for healthcare? Very often they do. In fact most of europe is comprised of quite poor nations with almost no economic growth where you must rely on yourself and your family or perish. Don`t assume it`s like Sweden everywhere.
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Oct 20, 2014 13:55
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Baudolino posted:Very often they do. In fact most of europe is comprised of quite poor nations with almost no economic growth where you must rely on yourself and your family or perish. Don`t assume it`s like Sweden everywhere. Most of Europe? Rely on yourself and your family or perish? Didn't you get little carried away there?
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Oct 20, 2014 14:06
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Europe's a little bigger than UK/France/Germany and the nordics, lad. There's a helluva lotta poverty in the Mediterranean, for instance.
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Oct 20, 2014 14:12
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How "hard" would would this "internal border" in a reunified Korea be? It seems like anything less than the current "shoot people who try to cross" level of security would result in millions of refugees crossing.
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Oct 20, 2014 14:17
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Onion Knight posted:
What the hell kind of bullshit is this? I teach at a Korean High School so I know that this is laughably untrue.
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Oct 20, 2014 14:19
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Onion Knight posted:Fat loving chance.... I really touched your soft spot didn't I. I apologize.
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Oct 20, 2014 14:24
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WarpedNaba posted:Europe's a little bigger than UK/France/Germany and the nordics, lad. There's a helluva lotta poverty in the Mediterranean, for instance. First: count population. Second: I'm in the Mediterranean and nobody dies on the street for a lack of healthcare. Thinking that Europe = Denmark is stupid. Thinking that Europe = Ukraine?, is even more stupid.
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Oct 20, 2014 14:26
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SedanChair posted:How "hard" would would this "internal border" in a reunified Korea be? It seems like anything less than the current "shoot people who try to cross" level of security would result in millions of refugees crossing. Until the mines are cleared I think there's pretty good reason to not want to cross en masse.
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Oct 20, 2014 14:37
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Charlz Guybon posted:What the hell kind of bullshit is this? I teach at a Korean High School so I know that this is laughably untrue. I'm joking, of course, but only half joking. Take a look at the audience demographics for K-pop in general. It's definitely big with young Korean women, but once they drop off the adjussis start to pick it up around late 20s-early 50s - and lately foreigners. At any rate it'll serve for lousy propaganda because it's not hooking college kids or young professionals.
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Oct 20, 2014 14:59
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Baudolino posted:Very often they do. In fact most of europe is comprised of quite poor nations with almost no economic growth where you must rely on yourself and your family or perish. Don`t assume it`s like Sweden everywhere. "Most of Europe"? European Union is "Most of Europe" and I wouldn't characterize any of them with that description. Sure, there are regional differences, but it's not like United States doesn't have those.
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Oct 20, 2014 15:04
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Onion Knight posted:Between this one and the China thread you really seem to love posting out and out bullshit. He's a low level CCP bureaucrat with connections to privilege who enjoys playing armchair geopolitics. It's kind of his thing. Like a Chinese My Imaginary GF sort of icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Oct 20, 2014 |
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Oct 20, 2014 15:13
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If the North Korean government collapses, South Korea is going to have to provide for North Koreans. Given what we know of North Korean wages, there is no way most North Koreans are going to be able to afford food and fuel at world market prices, not even the Kaesong workers who are paid more than the average North Korean. If the North Korean government goes, so do the state ration system (free food, though not consistently and not enough) and the emergency rice reserves, unless the South Korean government takes over the responsibility and considerable cost of feeding everyone in North Korea for free. Closing the border and putting North Koreans to work for slave wages doesn't change the fact that South Koreans are going to have to pay for North Korean necessities, one way or another. Honestly, I'm a little surprised so many people are bringing that up as an option for low-cost unification; folks here usually know better than to think that "set up a Gilded Age zone with no labor laws and let the market uplift all those poor people" is something that ever actually works.
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Oct 20, 2014 17:37
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What kind of international effort could we be looking at in the event of a collapse? I can see various organizations getting involved and a whole bunch of nations sending at least token support and probably quite a bit more. The Catholic church could probably be relied upon for a bunch of food aid, maybe more since they'd have an interest in converting 25 million atheists. The US would absolutely throw a ton of money at it because SK is their strongest ally in the region and China would also want to keep people from flooding over the border so they'd invest in stability. Honestly I feel like the biggest problem is political. What fills the vacuum when North Koreans are suddenly left without leadership or connection? You can't easily supplant a dictatorial system and I wonder how well they'd take to democracy. Perhaps a bunch of autonomous regions could be instituted where the larger cities elect councils that distribute food aid as current programs do and you go from there. They'd be distrustful of the South's intentions off the bat so they'd have to be eased into the idea.
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Oct 20, 2014 18:25
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icantfindaname posted:He's a low level CCP bureaucrat with connections to privilege who enjoys playing armchair geopolitics. It's kind of his thing. Like a Chinese My Imaginary GF sort of You forgot "card-carrying Hong Konger hater" part.
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Oct 20, 2014 21:05
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SedanChair posted:How "hard" would would this "internal border" in a reunified Korea be? It seems like anything less than the current "shoot people who try to cross" level of security would result in millions of refugees crossing. There is a multi mile wide border, through rough terrain mostly, filled with mines, tripwire guns, and armed but unexploded ordnance that can still blow your legs off the same way the "Iron Harvest" along the lines of the old World War I trenches in Europe every spring risks killing dozens. And there's only 2 or 3 narrow routes through there that are guarenteed clear - that is if NK leaders don't do a final gently caress you gesture by knocking over the many sets of massive concrete pillars they put by the sides of roads to block traffic. And most of the NK population lives 100+ miles from the border and would have to proceed on foot for the most part to the nearest crossing which would be even further. Essentially, even if all the active military there on both sides just cleared out, it'd be hard as hell for millions of refugee to safely get across.
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Oct 21, 2014 05:24
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South Korea thinks it's figured out Kim Jong-Un's absence.quote:South Korea's spy agency said Tuesday it has solved the mystery of North Korean leader Kim Jong Un's 6-week public absence, which set off a frenzy of wild speculation around the world.
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Oct 28, 2014 14:53
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Kim with his generally bloated appearance always makes me think of Cartman from South Park. Respect my Authoritay! Imagine a nation run by Cartman and you got it.
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Oct 28, 2014 22:41
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Are there any good documentaries on Kim Il Sung and the transformation of North Korea into the totalitarian state it became (like with the countless statues and the development of Juche ideology, etc) after the Korean War? I want to focus specifically on the end of the Korean War to Kim Il Sung's death, but it seems like a lot of documentaries focus on Kim Jong Il instead. Appreciate the help. 
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Oct 28, 2014 23:28
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TheRamblingSoul posted:Are there any good documentaries on Kim Il Sung and the transformation of North Korea into the totalitarian state it became (like with the countless statues and the development of Juche ideology, etc) after the Korean War? I want to focus specifically on the end of the Korean War to Kim Il Sung's death, but it seems like a lot of documentaries focus on Kim Jong Il instead. Kimjongilia, I think, was pretty good. KJI is what was relevant by the time the western world really started paying attention, which I suppose was after the fall of the Berlin Wall/Soviet Union, so naturally a lot of stuff is going to be about him. I Watching this will probably get you put on some kind of list: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-Kbn298m0A
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Nov 13, 2014 04:00
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