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GW really has become a complete and utter joke. It was almost laughable a few years ago, now it's just a bit sad and pathetic. There is only so much that "they're a business, businesses exist to make money!" will excuse before you can't ignore how hilariously inept they actually are. RIP good and fun GW.
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Oct 21, 2014 23:02
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Their stock has been hurting lately. It up ticks during a codex release, but it slams back down after about a week. The biggest peak over the last year was when the CEO left the company, but it's crashed down since then. 60 points away from the lowest its been in years. If it keeps trending like this it will be in fail cascade mode within about 2 years.
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Oct 21, 2014 23:17
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Business Gorillas posted:Games Day 2013 was a giant GW store you had to buy a ticket to get into. And the reward was buying things at MSRP!
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Oct 21, 2014 23:20
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serious gaylord posted:This drastically reduced the attendance for one thing, but more importantly cut down on the pool of staff they had to run the event. This particularly stands out. How much of the usual Games Day crowd were GW's own employees, presumably taking advantage of the staff discount?
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Oct 21, 2014 23:21
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enri posted:There is only so much that "they're a business, businesses exist to make money!" will excuse before you can't ignore how hilariously inept they actually are. The answer to this canard has always been, and will continue to be, "Ah yes, unlike Privateer Press, Reaper, Mantic, et cetera, who are nonprofit charities."
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Oct 21, 2014 23:25
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Loxbourne posted:This particularly stands out. How much of the usual Games Day crowd were GW's own employees, presumably taking advantage of the staff discount? Very little. They weren't allowed to have their discount during Games Day as they were all supposed to be working. You have to remember that this only took away maybe 80 people. They were used to selling 8 to 10 thousand tickets at the NEC and instead failed to sell 4000 for the NIA. They failed to sell 2000 for Warhammer Fest.
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Oct 21, 2014 23:31
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Loxbourne posted:This particularly stands out. How much of the usual Games Day crowd were GW's own employees, presumably taking advantage of the staff discount? He's saying that because the stores remained open, people were still simply going to their local GW rather than the Games Day, not that the employees of the stores were a significant part of the Games Day attendance numbers. The lack of extra workers at Games Day however had a double effect of reducing the number of events/tills/etc that could be run by GW, resulting in no open games, demos, theme table games, etc.
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Oct 21, 2014 23:34
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JerryLee posted:The answer to this canard has always been, and will continue to be, "Ah yes, unlike Privateer Press, Reaper, Mantic, et cetera, who are nonprofit charities." I think the point is, Privateer/Reaper/Mantic/etc. realize that in order to make a profit, one must do business. GW seem to be forgetting how to actually do that. Which is, frankly, sad.
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Oct 22, 2014 01:14
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serious gaylord posted:Last year was tremendously bad, but you have to realise that it really died the year previously to work out why. 
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Oct 22, 2014 01:30
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It is absurd what happened to Games Day. Like it should be written about, studied and taught to students about how not to do something.
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Oct 22, 2014 01:45
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That, but GW in general
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Oct 22, 2014 01:49
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It amazes me that Forgeworld can work so well comparitively to GW. GW talks about the idea that they're a luxury item, but Forgeworld realy embraces it and does well because of it. Yes they charge extra, but you get provided with great customer support because of that.
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Oct 22, 2014 01:53
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GW has great customer support, I thought? Like, it's the only good thing about GW these days.
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Oct 22, 2014 01:55
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Babe Magnet posted:GW has great customer support, I thought? Like, it's the only good thing about GW these days. I was meaning more in regards to general support of their products, handling rules updates etc, rather than just the handling complaints bit.
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Oct 22, 2014 01:57
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Oh yeah, they suck at that.
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Oct 22, 2014 01:59
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serious gaylord posted:It is absurd what happened to Games Day. Like it should be written about, studied and taught to students about how not to do something. I know a bunch of MBAs and wish one of them were nerdy enough for me to feel comfortable discussing this topic with them, because hot drat is it fascinating and I wish I had the business expertise to analyze it (and profit therefrom). Instead, my expertise mostly qualifies me to explain why the "Latin" that GW uses either a) is completely wrong and gibberish, or b) says something unintentionally hilarious.
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Oct 22, 2014 03:29
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All this Warhammer Fest talk makes me a bit misty-eyed for the days of old. I went to Gamesday 2002 in Baltimore MD. It was a throng of activity, landscaped by table after table of Fantasy, 40k and all of the Fanatic games with free door swag and the occasional crowd cheer from the random drawings they did. These weren't crappy consolation prizes either. I recall one guy walking out with about a 1,500 pts worth of necrons that he won somehow. Miniatures were set-up for people to use and fun new experimental rule-sets were also there. I remember playing a gladiator-like version of Fantasy in what looked to be a lizardmen-style Aztec Colosseum against my lady, who had no desire to get into mini gaming. She had a great time and ended up buying a paint set and a box of the Empire footmen she used in the skirmish game. There was a positive vibe flowing through the whole place. They even had an 8 foot tall Titan standing in the center of a 50 or so foot long table they set up with something like 40,000 pts worth (get it) of Ultramarines vs. the same amount of Necrons./ It was nothing but a sea of blue power armor vs' boltgun metal warriors and dozens of people duking it out. You could just walk up, play on either side for as long as you pleased and then walk away, letting the next guy take over your forces. After the battle ended, they would just hit the reset button and set it up for the next day. You could literally just buy a ticket and not bring a single mini of your own and still game all day long. I'd love to see that again, but it's pretty sad that GW has fostered such a venomous resentment (rightly so), if not outright alienation in its own player base. It would probably take a LOT of goodwill to the gaming community (dropping the Chapterhouse suit would be a start) for them to be able to have another event that was that enjoyable and brought as much enthusiasm.
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Oct 22, 2014 04:01
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I'm not surprised at all by the new Chapterhouse stuff. They got their asses handed to them in court pretty hard and if I was at the law firm that handled that case, I'd be pulling every punch possible to make sure I don't lose such a huge client.
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Oct 22, 2014 04:05
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Dump_Stat posted:I'd love to see that again, but it's pretty sad that GW has fostered such a venomous resentment (rightly so), if not outright alienation in its own player base. It would probably take a LOT of goodwill to the gaming community (dropping the Chapterhouse suit would be a start) for them to be able to have another event that was that enjoyable and brought as much enthusiasm. I don't know how that's even posible without a huge mea culpa campaign. It's worked for a few companies but it's risky as hell. Domino's comes to mind as they out right said 'Our pizza sucks and we're gonna fix that' and it actually worked but I don't know if GW would or could get the leadership that could pull it off. .I'm old enough to have started playing 40K in the tail end of 2nd Ed. but young enough (and also living in a flyover state) to never had the opportunity, time, or money to go to a GD. I'm now solidly in the '18-35 year old single professional with disposable income' demo and I would love to have a GD worth taking a week off of work to go to nowadays. I just don't see it happening.
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Oct 22, 2014 04:12
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Wouldn't most other companies (whether they were in the "jewel like objects of wonder" business or not) run such events as a way of promoting their product/industry/hobby and keeping their customer base engaged not really expecting to break even, much less turn a profit from the event itself. The idea being that such events (which are essentially massive advertisements you interact with) would lead to more sales later? Yeah I know, its games workshop.
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Oct 22, 2014 04:14
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Honestly, if it's run well, I have a hard time believing they'd lose money running an event like that regardless of who's running it or why. Not that what you're saying is untrue.
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Oct 22, 2014 04:24
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Well, I guess there's no getting around the fact you need trained staff to run games, and they have to be pulled from somewhere. If most shops are one-person, they have to close for the day. Of course, the smart solution is to see that one-person shops are a pants-on-head stupid idea in the first place. Talking of which, what do those shops do when the staff-bot wants time off? Shut down for a week? Shuttle someone else in?
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Oct 22, 2014 04:31
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petrol blue posted:Well, I guess there's no getting around the fact you need trained staff to run games, and they have to be pulled from somewhere. If most shops are one-person, they have to close for the day. That's exactly what they do. Before the GW in my city met it's eventual demise (As I went into detail about in this thread). The one person who ran the place would close shop several times a week during peak business hours because he also coached his kid's football team. So, if they have to take time off for reason, the store is just shut down.
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Oct 22, 2014 04:41
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Really? Shops that open semi-random hours never occurred to anyone as an utterly awful idea? I'm guessing they go for a combination of overwork and weird hours... Staff burnout must be obscene.
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Oct 22, 2014 04:55
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They also have "temps" that they train and can ship out to a specific store in the region if the guy running the store wants to go on vacation or something. But yeah, if the dude wants to break for lunch you have to drop whatever you're doing and gently caress off for half a hour. edit: The GW where I'm at is open from 12-8 Wednesday-Saturday and 12-4 on Sunday. Good luck getting a game of anything in after work.
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Oct 22, 2014 05:01
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It's also hosed when the guy finally realises what a poo poo job it is and leaves, because you have loving zero institutional memory of the customer base, area etc.
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Oct 22, 2014 05:11
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I was at Spiel in Essen on the weekend, and also noticed that there wasn't a single 40k demo table. Meanwhile, much smaller Tabletop games like Freebooters Fate, Dropzone Commander and even Wolsung had booths with gorgeous display tables and demos. So did Privateer Press (via german distributor Ulisses). Also compare Games Day and it's ilk to most Privateer Press events in America - they have Keynotes, Tournaments, Painting Competitions, Pre-Releases of models months before they hit the public. They keep their players interested and engaged. It really feels like GW's idea of their customer base is two-fold - they don't do any advertising or anything to engage and interest old or new players, as if they just want to keep selling their stuff to people already engaged with the brand. On the other hand, 99% of their business decisions piss off their player base, so new players seems to be their prime target. With a luxury commodity like Tabletop Miniatures, you have to spend money to make money, i.e. organize official tournaments and give people the chance to check the game out before they throw money at your company. It's hilarious that a company as large as this doesn't get this.
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Oct 22, 2014 05:55
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It's so frustrating, really, because they used to get it. The product I got hooked on 14 years ago simply does not exist anymore. It would make me the happiest manchild in the world if the entire Warhammer/Warhammer 40k IP were bought out by Fantasy Flight or some cool start-up, and the GW of the late 90s/early 2000s returned. Back then, it felt like there was a world of hobby games to play; now, that world feels minuscule and depressing.
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Oct 22, 2014 11:50
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There's way more hobby games now dude
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Oct 22, 2014 12:16
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Apollodorus posted:It's so frustrating, really, because they used to get it. The product I got hooked on 14 years ago simply does not exist anymore. A not insubstantial amount of Oldhammer talent migrated to other companies. Paul Sawyer (Fat Bloke) and Rick Priestly are with Warlord now, the Perry Twins are creating historical miniatures that raise the bar for historical miniatures, Alesio Cavatore is a consultant designer (River Horse) who's produced games for Mantic among others, Tuomas Pirinen (Mordheim) has something to do with Slant Six (video)Games. And Andy Chambers is at Blizzard. Honestly, I think they're all better off*. Jervis Johnson is (AFAIK) the last of the old guard still at GW, and he seems content to cash big paychecks while writing the occasional Wargames Monthly editorial about games he'd rather be attached to. (*Except maybe Tuomas  )
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Oct 22, 2014 12:22
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Andy Chambers is also working with Hawk Wargames to make their space combat game - so thats something to look out for. Dropzone Commander is fantastic, and I can't wait to see what they do to starship battles.
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Oct 22, 2014 12:25
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Phoon posted:There's way more hobby games now dude Hobby games yes, GW games no. GW has gone from six or more games to two games with one or two "limited release" titles (I refuse to acknowledge the Hobbit). Luckily there are dozens of game systems that have risen to fill the gaps. Unfortunately the player base is fragmented, so now it can be tough to find games to play in your area because not everyone plays games from that one big company that is everywhere.
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Oct 22, 2014 12:30
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Indolent Bastard posted:Hobby games yes, GW games no. GW has gone from six or more games to two games with one or two "limited release" titles (I refuse to acknowledge the Hobbit). Luckily there are dozens of game systems that have risen to fill the gaps. Unfortunately the player base is fragmented, so now it can be tough to find games to play in your area because not everyone plays games from that one big company that is everywhere. I think it's probably better that the GW philosophy isn't the only one with any real market share any more.
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Oct 22, 2014 12:50
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Phoon posted:There's way more hobby games now dude Oh, for sure - except Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are the ones I have lots of mans for, and I've put time and energy into assembling and painting (some of) them. I can't justify starting a new game unless I sell (or just give away) my GW stuff, and that's just money-wise; even if I had a few hundred dollars to spend on an Infinity force, a Warmachine force, and/or a Firestorm Armada force, I just don't have the time to collect, assemble, and paint new miniatures. Not if I want to finish my PhD, anyway. The whole reason I got into Warhammer was that I knew that, eventually, I would have a nice big collection of guys ready to go whenever I want to play, at whatever size of game my opponents want to play. But now, it seems like there aren't any opponents, the game rules are poo poo, and my minis are just sitting around doing nothing even when I do have time to play. I know this is, like, the most first-world of #firstworldproblems, but it's just frustrating. It's not that I haven't had fun painting my dudes, but I really expected more of a payoff. Panzeh posted:I think it's probably better that the GW philosophy isn't the only one with any real market share any more. Most definitely - BUT the GW philosophy of now isn't what it was in 1999. That GW would be nice to have back.
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Oct 22, 2014 13:26
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Convince people to play Kings of War, the Warhammer minis more or less slot right in. That's if you like the game yourself anyway.
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Oct 22, 2014 13:29
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Luebbi posted:I was at Spiel in Essen on the weekend, and also noticed that there wasn't a single 40k demo table. Meanwhile, much smaller Tabletop games like Freebooters Fate, Dropzone Commander and even Wolsung had booths with gorgeous display tables and demos. So did Privateer Press (via german distributor Ulisses). Also compare Games Day and it's ilk to most Privateer Press events in America - they have Keynotes, Tournaments, Painting Competitions, Pre-Releases of models months before they hit the public. They keep their players interested and engaged. I've always found this aspect of GW's demise really fascinating and something i've always wanted to (but are much too lazy) to write a paper on. To fail so hard with such a dominant market position is morbidly fascinating and see the community engagement tactics their competitors have used to siphon off all but GW's stupidest fanbase are really interesting. There's a truckload to be written about how GW's failure to embrace the digital channels of community engagement have crippled their brand, especially compared to a company like Privateer who have thrown themselves at the digital sphere with ferocity. PP tweet spoilers and teaser images through employee twitter accounts to build hype, they engage with consumers via their forums and they've even begun to try and take lessons from eSports and promote their major tournaments as proper polished twitch events. The quality isn't quite there yet on the last one, but in terms of keeping their customers engaged in the product I'd say they're probably industry leaders.
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Oct 22, 2014 13:29
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It's actually somewhat like the "other guys" boom that happens whenever D&D changes editions. Except that it's been steadily increasing as GW's stranglehold gets weaker and feeble through terrible decisions.
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Oct 22, 2014 13:41
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moths posted:It's actually somewhat like the "other guys" boom that happens whenever D&D changes editions. Except that it's been steadily increasing as GW's stranglehold gets weaker and feeble through terrible decisions. Also, FW excepted, most of the talent seems to have leaked out, and where in the past young talent would be drafted in to replace them, grateful for the opportunity to work at GW, all of those guys are off starting their own companies on Kickstarter, or just freelancing for the other growing players.
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Oct 22, 2014 13:49
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Went past the local GW today. Would have gone in, but it was closed, black windows, posters of MURDERDEATHSKULL, and a sad-looking gargant. 
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Oct 22, 2014 14:46
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Panzeh posted:I think it's probably better that the GW philosophy isn't the only one with any real market share any more. No denying that. Free online rules and strong community support (e.g. wikis), over $100+ for rules alone and virtually no community support? I'll take the former thanks.
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Oct 22, 2014 15:19
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