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TheKingofSprings posted:A big thing to consider is that in general, mana efficiency > card advantage > life. Babylon Astronaut posted:That's why I asked. Force of Will is the best counterspell ever printed. It is so good that it controls your opponent even if you don't have it in your hand, even the risk of it being there is enough to trip up an opponent. They can never assume that you aren't going to counter, even if they have no mana open. 1 life is nothing, having your winning spell countered is the game. That's true, I suppose I never thought about it like that when I read the card. This is kind of daunting though, because that's the sort of thing that would catch me completely by surprise. TheKingofSprings posted:I want to point out that this isn't supposed to be dog pile on the new guy, evaluating life costs is the quintessential newbie mistake. It took reanimate to get it to click with a friend when I pointed out that you would pay 15 life and one black for an Emrakul all day every day. Isn't it impossible to cast Emrakul with Reanimate? Since he gets shuffled back to the library instead of going to the graveyard. mango sentinel posted:That's generally what people are talking about when referencing "durdling." Blue decks that do nothing but cast dumb cantrips and remove your stuff until they can cast a big spell. We recently came out a format dominated by a stupid blue/white do nothing deck dominated by these cards: Sphinx's Revelation and Supreme Verdict. The win condition was having this card in their deck effectively ensuring they can durdle until the end of time forcing the opponent to concede. I feel like you would love that deck. That deck sounds amazing! That's just how I used to play back in the day, with bounces and counterspells and walls and just never losing life. It didn't always work (sometimes I would draw poorly and couldn't get any early defenders out against an aggro deck), but it was always fun when it did. mango sentinel posted:It's expensive because the alternate cost is so good and that's the mode they want players to use. They don't want it to have the alternate cost AND be Counterspell. It's already the best counter, but that would even more crazy. Oh, so they intended for the proper casting cost to be the optional one and have the actual casting cost be the suboptimal one. Okay, that makes sense. Olothreutes posted:It isn't even just about one mana drops. Cards like simian/elvish spirit guide, lotus petal, dark ritual, grim monolith, lions eye diamond, et al. allow your opponent to potentially make 5-6 mana or more on their first turn. There is a goon favorite combo deck called breakfast burrito that relies entirely on being able to make 4+ mana on turn one (with zero lands in the deck) and then killing your opponent immediately. Unless they can counter you, which essentially requires force of will in their hand. It's a gamble to play the deck, you essentially are playing force of will roulette, if they have it you lose, otherwise they lose. 
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Oct 22, 2014 08:43
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xeose4 posted:Isn't impossible to cast Emrakul with Reanimate? Since he gets shuffled back to the library instead of going to the graveyard. Now I'm curious, what do you think of the Goyf? vvv: Yep, because if those were legal I think the old affinity deck with Disciple of the Vaults would come back, although I didn't play during that era so I'm speculating. neetengie fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Oct 22, 2014 |
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Oct 22, 2014 08:46
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Why did they ban the ancient den/seat of the synod cycle in modern? Was it artifact shenanigans?
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Oct 22, 2014 08:48
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TheKingofSprings posted:Actually Mana Drain fights it pretty loving hard for that position. kizudarake posted:Why did they ban the ancient den/seat of the synod cycle in modern? Was it artifact shenanigans?
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Oct 22, 2014 08:49
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Fingers McLongDong posted:I may have played the same WUR delver guy, I eventually lost that in game 3 when he cruised twice and ate me up with card advantage. I'm trying out modern's version of Death and Taxes right now, it's actually a really fun deck. Won most matches tonight, lost against a few delver players and the junk player. I'm seriously considering making major changes to my sideboard for this wave of delver decks, but what would be good? I'm already using 2 RiP in the side, and I boarded in 2 ghostly prison's to fair success earlier. I'm playing this pile. I've gone up from 2 to 3 RiP and not regretted it for a second. It's nice because once they see what I'm doing, they usually Bolt my turn 1 creature and let me resolve RiP. I also added a Spirit of the Labyrinth and Ethersworn Canonist to my side, which I'll probably end up taking out because I've seen the Spirit exactly 0 times and the Canonist just got bounced by Solitaire before it went off. Plus I added 2x Electrickery. For value.
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Oct 22, 2014 08:53
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kizudarake posted:Why did they ban the ancient den/seat of the synod cycle in modern? Was it artifact shenanigans? Affinity is a tier 1 deck without them, it'd be slightly more bonkers if they were legal.
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Oct 22, 2014 08:53
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neetengie posted:Goryo's Vengeance or Necromancy can bring back Emra instant speed. That it's probably really good when you use those "kill all creatures" spells? I mean, there are tons of ways to bring that creature back, or to make it immune to the spell you're casting. It probably works very well in a B/G deck with a lot of different creature types that are meant to be sacrificial fodder for that one, and then some regenerate/immunity spells to protect it.
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Oct 22, 2014 08:54
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To be honest if it wasn't for the fact that Legacy would be unplayable if you banned Force of Will, it probably would be along with Mana Drain. That says more about the ludicrous power level of Legacy than it does either of those spells, but you know...xeose4 posted:That it's probably really good when you use those "kill all creatures" spells? I mean, there are tons of ways to bring that creature back, or to make it immune to the spell you're casting. It probably works very well in a B/G deck with a lot of different creature types that are meant to be sacrificial fodder for that one, and then some regenerate/immunity spells to protect it. Not creature types, card types. Check the reminder text on the card.
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Oct 22, 2014 08:56
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xeose4 posted:That it's probably really good when you use those "kill all creatures" spells? I mean, there are tons of ways to bring that creature back, or to make it immune to the spell you're casting. It probably works very well in a B/G deck with a lot of different creature types that are meant to be sacrificial fodder for that one, and them some regenerate/immunity spells to protect it. It counts card types, not creature types. (The card types are artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and tribal.) Otherwise it would be completely broken, especially with Changelings.
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Oct 22, 2014 08:57
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xeose4 posted:That it's probably really good when you use those "kill all creatures" spells? I mean, there are tons of ways to bring that creature back, or to make it immune to the spell you're casting. It probably works very well in a B/G deck with a lot of different creature types that are meant to be sacrificial fodder for that one, and then some regenerate/immunity spells to protect it. Card types are creature, enchantment, land, artifact, planeswalker, sorcery, instant, tribal (this is a weird one which is almost never relevant.) Not creature types. So if all 8 of those card types are in graveyards, Tarmogoyf can be an 8/9 for 1G.
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Oct 22, 2014 08:57
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xeose4 posted:That it's probably really good when you use those "kill all creatures" spells? I mean, there are tons of ways to bring that creature back, or to make it immune to the spell you're casting. It probably works very well in a B/G deck with a lot of different creature types that are meant to be sacrificial fodder for that one, and then some regenerate/immunity spells to protect it.
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Oct 22, 2014 08:59
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:To be honest if it wasn't for the fact that Legacy would be unplayable if you banned Force of Will, it probably would be along with Mana Drain. That says more about the ludicrous power level of Legacy than it does either of those spells, but you know... Nope. Mana Drain has a much more deleterious effect on a format than FoW does, as it serves to enable busted plays far more than it serves to stop them. Its banning in Legacy is also largely related to availability and price concerns that existed at the inception of the format- there are a LOT more copies of Force of Will in existence than there are Mana Drain, and legalizing Mana Drain would have had reallybad consequences for the viability of Legacy as the affordable and accessible Eternal format where you could play your old Extended decks (which is what it was positioned as when 1.5 separated its banned list from Vintage's and became its own thing). Legacy is stupid expensive now, but for most of the 2000's it was a more affordable format to play than Standard once you factored the several hundred dollars of staples you needed as initial buy in over a year or two. LGD fucked around with this message at 09:07 on Oct 22, 2014 |
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Oct 22, 2014 09:03
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Babylon Astronaut posted:Also, that was the mana cost of the rest of the cycle except pyrokinesis which was one more to make it fair. I don't think they really thought the pitch spells through. Consider how bad the white and green ones are. They really didn't.
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Oct 22, 2014 09:04
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suicidesteve posted:I'm playing this pile. I like this deck a lot and I'm glad you're having success. A local friend has been playing a similar list and it's fun to see. I was running this tonight: https://deckbox.org/sets/816462 Just built it today. Relatively happy with the board as most all of it saw use tonight. Just not a lot I think I can do about pyrodelvers that get 2 pyromancers down early.
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Oct 22, 2014 09:10
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suicidesteve posted:Card types are creature, enchantment, land, artifact, planeswalker, sorcery, instant, tribal (this is a weird one which is almost never relevant.) Not creature types. So if all 8 of those card types are in graveyards, Tarmogoyf can be an 8/9 for 1G. I completely misread the card, I could have sworn it said creature type instead of card type. So basically it gets stronger no matter what? Wow that is really strong.
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Oct 22, 2014 09:17
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xeose4 posted:I completely misread the card, I could have sworn it said creature type instead of card type. So basically it gets stronger no matter what? Wow that is really strong.
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Oct 22, 2014 09:19
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LGD posted:Nope. Mana Drain has a much more deleterious effect on a format than FoW does, as it serves to enable busted plays far more than it serves to stop them. Its banning in Legacy is also largely related to availability and price concerns that existed at the inception of the format- there are a LOT more copies of Force of Will in existence than there are Mana Drain, and legalizing Mana Drain would have had reallybad consequences for the viability of Legacy as the affordable and accessible Eternal format where you could play your old Extended decks (which is what it was positioned as when 1.5 separated its banned list from Vintage's and became its own thing). Legacy is stupid expensive now, but for most of the 2000's it was a more affordable format to play than Standard once you factored the several hundred dollars of staples you needed as initial buy in over a year or two. I'll take your word for it. For what it's worth I think Mana Drain is a far more powerful effect, it's just that Force of Will being playable for zero mana seems to be the only reason Legacy/Vintage aren't completely degenerate.
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Oct 22, 2014 09:19
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Bugsy posted:Consider how bad the white and green ones are. They really didn't. The green one was actually fairly legit in stompy decks for a long time, though obviously by this era it's been power creeped out of contention.
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Oct 22, 2014 09:30
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Whole lot of people ITT don't know Mana Drain isn't that important in Vintage anymore.
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Oct 22, 2014 09:41
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born on a buy you posted:Whole lot of people ITT don't know Mana Drain isn't that important in Vintage anymore. Literally no one has been talking about Drain's current place in Vintage.
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Oct 22, 2014 09:44
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Bugsy posted:Consider how bad the white and green ones are. They really didn't. The green one had a home in old school stompy decks (Rogue Elephant, etc). Aaand we're beaten.
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Oct 22, 2014 12:25
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suicidesteve posted:Anyway, who cares about that crap? They're finally fixing Mindslaver! YES! I can now finally play Blue Tron in Modern dailies and not get mad because I: 1) Have lock ready. 2) Can't do lock because my opponent has Aether Vial or some other automatic trigger.
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Oct 22, 2014 12:27
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Babylon Astronaut posted:Decks that win late are still trying to win as fast as they can. They are just focused on negating early game threats. You better believe they don't want the game to go any longer than it has to. Actually mana drain is the best counterspell ever printed, but force of will is still very good.
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Oct 22, 2014 12:55
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Count Bleck posted:YES! Seems like you could grind out a lot of value just running a deck that wizards has made not work and then filing for reiumbursement every time.
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Oct 22, 2014 14:27
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Entropic posted:Seems like you could grind out a lot of value just running a deck that wizards has made not work and then filing for reiumbursement every time. Yeah see I'm not a scumbag so  I also discovered this was A Thing when I was bullshitting around in the lobby and this didn't happen in a daily or anything. Count Bleck fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Oct 22, 2014 |
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Oct 22, 2014 15:26
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xeose4 posted:That deck sounds amazing! That's just how I used to play back in the day, with bounces and counterspells and walls and just never losing life. It didn't always work (sometimes I would draw poorly and couldn't get any early defenders out against an aggro deck), but it was always fun when it did. It sounds like you would've loved the old Turbo Stasis decks that were running around during Black Summer of '96, an example of which is found here. I used to play a mono-blue version of Stasis in Old Extended that would take advantage of cards that utilized my resources in alternative ways, such as Daze, Thwart, and Force of Will for "free" counterspells, Gush for card drawing and keeping my Stasis up, and Chronatog once I have the board completely locked down and my hand is full of countermagic. It was the durdliest deck, and it didn't do too well in Old Extended, but it was fun. You may also notice that the deck listed doesn't have creatures in it, and the only creature I ever played in my version, Chronatog, is not burly enough to block most threats. Since Stasis prevents creatures from untapping, and the opponent is usually restricted to playing one spell every couple of turns (defended against by "free" counterspells), you can consider life total on my side as a resource. I'd only play countermagic or bounce spells if they would threaten my board control or cause me to lose right then and there, but otherwise I didn't care about how much damage I took early game. The reason Stasis became a thing, however, and why the time was known as "Black Summer" is because of this new, seemingly bad (at the time) card called Necropotence, and the decks that would use it. It turns out paying one life to draw a card at the end of your turn is worth Dark Ritual-ing it first turn and drawing up win conditions and answers to your opponent's stuff. Unlike Stasis, Necropotence kept seeing play in the Extended format well into 2001, five years after its release, when they finally banned it. Prior to that, they would ban all the cards used in conjunction with Necropotence rather than ban Necropotence outright. Trix was especially rough at the time, since it was really consistent and fast with its wins, and this was a deck that not only used Necropotence to turn life into cards, it used life to fuel other cheap cards as well. And these were competitive decks from well over ten years ago. Dark Confidant will potentially make you lose more life per spell than what Necropotence will, but average it out with land draws that don't hurt you, and they're more or less similar in function. Dark Confidant just happens to be easier to kill than Necropotence, and instead of waiting until the end of your turn to get the card you get it right before your draw step, and also you still have your draw step instead of just skipping it. Mercury Crusader fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Oct 22, 2014 |
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Oct 22, 2014 15:44
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suicidesteve posted:I'm playing this pile. Whoa, this is almost card for card a deck that one of the weirder players at my old store always played (he always played strange decks and used little vinyl Zoidberg figures for tokens....which I was totally fine with, it was actually kind of awesome....but he was that guy who played Battle of Wits). I had never seen it anywhere else. Not a single night of Modern passed without having to overhear him explain Norin to someone, no one understood the deck. I was probably the only one in the room who had no fear of it, since I play Melira Pod and what's another 30 damage to an infinite combo. Everyone else had a ton of Scapeshift and stuff that REALLY struggles when you have a ton of life gain. The biggest douchebag at the store played Scapeshift, so Alex and Norin were my heroes because they made him bitch and moan so much (and always beat him).
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Oct 22, 2014 15:45
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I played that pile for a little bit and loved it. Been meaning to revisit it and throw return to ranks in it.
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Oct 22, 2014 16:33
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Entropic posted:Seems like you could grind out a lot of value just running a deck that wizards has made not work and then filing for reiumbursement every time. A. That's super scummy. B. They won't reimburse you if you keep filing for the same thing. BaronVonVaderham posted:Not a single night of Modern passed without having to overhear him explain Norin to someone, no one understood the deck. I was probably the only one in the room who had no fear of it, since I play Melira Pod and what's another 30 damage to an infinite combo. Everyone else had a ton of Scapeshift and stuff that REALLY struggles when you have a ton of life gain. The biggest douchebag at the store played Scapeshift, so Alex and Norin were my heroes because they made him bitch and moan so much (and always beat him). I've been playing it for a while now. It's a lot of fun, especially online. It's actually kind of terrible to play on paper because there's so much to keep track of, especially with the Archangel. You need dozens of Myr tokens, dice, etc. Spirit Bonds makes it even more confusing. The fact that it's good against UR Burn, which is 103% of the online meta is nice too. Snacksmaniac posted:I played that pile for a little bit and loved it. Been meaning to revisit it and throw return to ranks in it. I'll have to try that.
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Oct 22, 2014 16:54
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Bob/Force/other old or really "pro" cards are just unintuitive until you play with them, in my opinion. xeose, play some cube, or some legacy on Cockatrice or whatever, or even just watch cube/legacy videos on ChannelFireball or SCG, and it quickly becomes apparent how good they are.
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Oct 22, 2014 17:10
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Terrible Horse posted:Bob/Force/other old or really "pro" cards are just unintuitive until you play with them, in my opinion. xeose, play some cube, or some legacy on Cockatrice or whatever, or even just watch cube/legacy videos on ChannelFireball or SCG, and it quickly becomes apparent how good they are. holy poo poo we just got past that dumb discussion please don't do it again for another 10 pages add "new player doesn't understand card value" to the bingo sheet then add "add to the bingo sheet" to the bingo sheet
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Oct 22, 2014 17:13
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Mortimer posted:holy poo poo we just got past that dumb discussion please don't do it again for another 10 pages Then add "add "add to the bingo sheet" to the bingo sheet" to the bingo sheet.
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Oct 22, 2014 17:16
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Mortimer posted:holy poo poo we just got past that dumb discussion please don't do it again for another 10 pages This bingo sheet is like the size of a poster. Nobody is ever going to get a bingo, might as well just make it a drink when someone says list.
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Oct 22, 2014 17:16
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Mortimer posted:holy poo poo we just got past that dumb discussion please don't do it again for another 10 pages I'm sorry. This post is much better, I agree.
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Oct 22, 2014 17:17
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Mortimer posted:holy poo poo we just got past that dumb discussion please don't do it again for another 10 pages Agreeing with this, when I saw 150~ new posts this morning I thought Commander 2014 spoilers had dropped or something.
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Oct 22, 2014 17:31
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Seriously, shut the gently caress up until conspiracy 2 drops or someone gets a bingo.
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Oct 22, 2014 17:36
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Babylon Astronaut posted:Seriously, shut the gently caress up until conspiracy 2 drops or someone gets a bingo. Or Commander 2014 spoilers actually do start. Seriously, where's Urza, Planeswalker already?! 
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Oct 22, 2014 17:38
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Count Bleck posted:Or Commander 2014 spoilers actually do start. Dead, I think.
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Oct 22, 2014 17:39
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suicidesteve posted:A. That's super scummy. Less scummy than exploiting a bug that makes your opponent time out http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2h5dg8/so_some_guy_40d_a_standard_daily_with_a_deck/ I was joking in case it wasn't clear.
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Oct 22, 2014 17:39
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Cernunnos posted:Dead, I think. Well yeah but they specifically said that the legendary creatures and Planeswalker commanders were going to be characters they missed using at the time. Like Gisa and Teferi
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Oct 22, 2014 17:43
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