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Soulcleaver posted:Like Schierke, which was probably supposed to be Circe? Well I'm hesitant to jump on this again but, actually -- assuming Schierke is the name used in the official translation -- it's the name of a small village in northern Germany, in a region historically renowned for legends about witches.  So probably not a mistake.
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Oct 18, 2014 17:21
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Well I'm hesitant to jump on this again but, actually -- assuming Schierke is the name used in the official translation -- it's the name of a small village in northern Germany, in a region historically renowned for legends about witches. That's cool. I was curious about her name and thought it was a Circe reference too.
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Oct 18, 2014 17:46
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Well I'm hesitant to jump on this again but, actually -- assuming Schierke is the name used in the official translation -- it's the name of a small village in northern Germany, in a region historically renowned for legends about witches. Whereas this apparently was a genuine coincidence.
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Oct 20, 2014 03:01
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I've always heard that and I refuse to believe it.
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Oct 21, 2014 02:54
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Personally I've always figured it was probably a case of cryptomnesia, like maybe he heard about the dude as a kid or young teen and forgot about it.
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Oct 21, 2014 03:05
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Big Anime Fan Here posted:I like that he wrote himself into a corner and is going to let what is now a bloated mess of meandering plotlines die a cool wriggling death Sounds like he's got a lot in common with George R. R. Martin. 
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Oct 21, 2014 15:05
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I marathoned the whole series over the weekend and holy poo poo this is amazing. I watched the anime in high-school and of course read a bit of the manga when I seen the ending and there's so much I missed back then. Like how the series basically went from low-fantasy to high or how Griffith basically setup his rise to power in the most ironclad way possible (blessed by the pope, married the princess who he personally rescued from a demon army). I like how Guts becomes much less of a rear end in a top hat as he got older. hopefully I live long enough to see Griffith's utopia and messiah persona fall apart
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Oct 21, 2014 19:19
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I'm pretty sure this is a major tipping point, and we will see how detached Femto really is, or if being partly mortal again will cloud his judgement. It's the second time since the eclipse where his arrogance has had repercussions beyond his control (the first being not bothering to finish off Guts when he had a chance, but that seems to be the Godhand's collective failure). Rickert underscores the direction the story is slowly plodding towards: Griffith sacrificed the real Band of the Falcon and he'll never have that back. His new Band just a fake, because Griffith is a giant fake.
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Oct 21, 2014 19:53
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Literally Kermit posted:I'm pretty sure this is a major tipping point, and we will see how detached Femto really is, or if being partly mortal again will cloud his judgement. It's the second time since the eclipse where his arrogance has had repercussions beyond his control (the first being not bothering to finish off Guts when he had a chance, but that seems to be the Godhand's collective failure). Hmm, was letting Guts live a mistake? Or war it all part of the plan, given that nothing Guts and co have done so far had actually hurt Griffith or the God Hand in any way. If anything, they have assisted both at the Tower of Conviction and by wounding the Kushan emperor. Griffith was way more worried about Schierke and her master than whatever Guts was up to. Presumably they'll come up with some plan to actually fight back if they ever get to Elfhelm. Begemot fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Oct 21, 2014 |
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Oct 21, 2014 20:32
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Begemot posted:Hmm, was letting Guts live a mistake? Or war it all part of the plan, given that nothing Guts and co have done so far had actually hurt Griffith or the God Hand in any way. I'm of the opinion that it wasn't the Godhand's intention for him to survive the Eclipse, but it was the Idea of Evil's (and maybe Griffith's) in order to lead to Griffith's rebirth in the physical plane.
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Oct 21, 2014 20:47
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I think Guts lived because he and Caska were either outside of fate thus could be saved or they didn't belong in the Eclipse so they were able to escape. Guts was too independent and had already left. Caska was protected by the others so she carry on or maybe go with Guts. I think everything worked out as it was meant, by whatever force in the setting. Griffith isn't a bad guy IMO. He's like the king Midland deserves and yadda yadda yadda. I rewatched the anime over the summer and came to the realization that Griffith didn't want to sacrifice Guts. When Griffith fled and found the behelit for a second time, he saw Guts come to rescue him. He said in his mind 'Don't come near or we will never ....' but his tongue was cut out. I always saw that that scene as Griffith's pride not wanting Guts to help and being cradled cause him to go over the edge. I think now that Griffith knew he was lost and he knew Guts was going to be sucked into the Eclipse if Guts was a true friend to him. I think Griffith/Femto is playing out the role set by citizens of Midland and the Godhand. He is detached because he isn't himself. He's like Guts if the wars stopped. It is hard to believe that Griffith the man wanted to win as much as he wanted to compete. That maybe is why Griffith visited Guts to see if the feeling of love was still there. I think the hope that Guts would return is what preserved him while imprisoned and when presented with an "alternative" hope by the Godhand, he choose to the contrary. Griffith was an user but also being used by those around him. He didn't just sacrifice the Band of the Hawks, he gave up his own humanity to make sure their deaths weren't in vain. I used to struggle with the exact nature of Griffith's admiration of Guts and if was it homosexual on some level. But now, I feel that Griffith was just lonely and drained from being put upon. Guts was the first person that Griffith could count on, not just as a soldier, but as someone who could help him achieve his dream. A lot of the story shows Guts being fixated on Griffith but prior to the Eclipse, we were briefly shown that Griffith was actually fixated on Guts too. It is a real mind flip to think of how the Hawks and Midland all depended on Griffith but Griffith was depending on Guts. We know what happened the minute Guts left. We know what happened to the Hawks the minute Griffith left. They were a pair but I think Guts was never aware of Griffith's feelings for him. There was a curious infatuation by Griffith but those feelings was the only indication of Griffith's feelings until his imprisonment. Griffith didn't show any affection for anyone else also, so his actions towards Guts stands out even more. temple fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Oct 21, 2014 |
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Oct 21, 2014 21:34
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temple posted:Griffith isn't a bad guy IMO. Really?
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Oct 22, 2014 03:07
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Berserk fans always contain their share of Griffith sympathizers. Mirua does a great job of making Griffith's actions understandable, though clearly monstrous.
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Oct 22, 2014 03:25
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As if Guts hasn't killed dozens of children and hundreds of men.
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Oct 22, 2014 04:02
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Guts may be a murderer, but he doesn't lie to himself about it or try to claim it's for any greater good.
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Oct 22, 2014 04:30
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temple posted:As if Guts hasn't killed dozens of children and hundreds of men. kids suck
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Oct 22, 2014 04:52
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Tezcatlipoca posted:Really?
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Oct 22, 2014 05:38
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IronicDongz posted:he only sacrificed a shitload of people's lives via agonizing death to gain power via a demonic pact, plus some rape. any sort of atrocities are excusable when you create order in the end after all Not to be edgy but the Hawks already decided their fate. The Zodd incident alone proved they would have followed Griffith into hell. Casca and Guts were the only Hawks that had ambition to leave. I feel like Miura was removing the veil by having Griffith directly sacrifice them to demons as opposed to dying from mundane violence. The tone I get from Miura is one of criticizing the Middle Ages while making the common man the hero. I read an undeniable class commentary in Berserk. With the King, Griffith rose but the Hawks received status by association. Griffith's betrayal was against his class by sacrificing the Hawks for his sole advancement into the elite.
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Oct 22, 2014 06:24
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In regards to Griffith, I've always thought Griffith was clearly in love with Guts, and that one of the things that tipped him over the edge was Guts choosing Casca over him.
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Oct 22, 2014 07:31
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becrumbac posted:In regards to Griffith, I've always thought Griffith was clearly in love with Guts, and that one of the things that tipped him over the edge was Guts choosing Casca over him. he was in love with both but ended up with neither
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Oct 22, 2014 13:44
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IronicDongz posted:he only sacrificed a shitload of people's lives via agonizing death to gain power via a demonic pact, plus some rape. any sort of atrocities are excusable when you create order in the end after all It's not like any real nation hasn't done worse poo poo in wars. In this case its just a lot more direct and personal from the leader. I think Griffith's morality is actually pretty gray and it makes for an interesting character.
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Oct 22, 2014 13:50
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temple posted:Not to be edgy but the Hawks already decided their fate. The Zodd incident alone proved they would have followed Griffith into hell. notZaar posted:It's not like any real nation hasn't done worse poo poo in wars. In this case its just a lot more direct and personal from the leader. I think Griffith's morality is actually pretty gray and it makes for an interesting character.
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Oct 22, 2014 14:08
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temple posted:Not to be edgy but the Hawks already decided their fate. notZaar posted:I think Griffith's morality is actually pretty gray and it makes for an interesting character. Post-eclipse Griffith and the Godhand in general is less interesting from a moral standpoint - they seem to be pretty cartoonishly Machiavellian 99% of the time. The only reason I still care about Griffith/Femto is to see how the poo poo between him, Guts, and Casca is eventually going to go down.
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Oct 22, 2014 14:26
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becrumbac posted:In regards to Griffith, I've always thought Griffith was clearly in love with Guts, and that one of the things that tipped him over the edge was Guts choosing Casca over him. Never really occurred to me, but is this what happened?
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Oct 22, 2014 14:28
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Griffith pretty clearly sees Guts as his possession/pawn/tool, which is at odds with their friendship but is still the basis for their relationship (master/slave). My take has always been that Griffith really starts to lose it when Guts leaves (as opposed to when he comes back) which is pretty obvious from his near-immediate descent into Bad Ideas such as sexing Charlotte. The dramatic irony is acute if you look at it in terms of master/slave + friendship: Griffith gives that speech about friends being equals when the only friend he's ever had is his slave...which causes his only friend to seek freedom and equality, betraying his slave role, and ruining their whole relationship. The love-triangle interpretation just doesn't work nearly as well. Guts choosing Caska is moot - he already betrayed Griffith so everything he does as an independent act is a continuation of that betrayal. Caska choosing Guts over Griffith is more like adding insult to injury, and I think the rapey Eclipse stuff is a calculated gently caress-you to Guts for leaving/betrayal as opposed to some kind of sexual statement. Whether or not you believe that rape is almost always about power, I think it pretty clearly was in this case - Griffith is doing it to punish Guts (and maybe to make a demon baby with Caska for eventual incarnative use if you like that theory).
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Oct 22, 2014 15:02
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aparmenideanmonad posted:Griffith pretty clearly sees Guts as his possession/pawn/tool, which is at odds with their friendship but is still the basis for their relationship (master/slave). My take has always been that Griffith really starts to lose it when Guts leaves (as opposed to when he comes back) which is pretty obvious from his near-immediate descent into Bad Ideas such as sexing Charlotte. The dramatic irony is acute if you look at it in terms of master/slave + friendship: Griffith gives that speech about friends being equals when the only friend he's ever had is his slave...which causes his only friend to seek freedom and equality, betraying his slave role, and ruining their whole relationship. The love-triangle interpretation just doesn't work nearly as well. lol that you think you can comprehend the mind of the Godhand. Griffith let demons kill a bunch of people that killed people for a living. Everyone in the comic is a murderer.
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Oct 22, 2014 16:01
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aparmenideanmonad posted:Griffith pretty clearly sees Guts as his possession/pawn/tool, which is at odds with their friendship but is still the basis for their relationship (master/slave). My take has always been that Griffith really starts to lose it when Guts leaves (as opposed to when he comes back) which is pretty obvious from his near-immediate descent into Bad Ideas such as sexing Charlotte. The dramatic irony is acute if you look at it in terms of master/slave + friendship: Griffith gives that speech about friends being equals when the only friend he's ever had is his slave...which causes his only friend to seek freedom and equality, betraying his slave role, and ruining their whole relationship. The love-triangle interpretation just doesn't work nearly as well. This is how I originally interpreted it, someone mentioning the love triangle thing seemed ridiculous, but this series is not without other ridiculous things as well. Caska being raped retarded is pretty loving stupid, for instance.
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Oct 22, 2014 16:59
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Unacknowledged posted:Caska being raped retarded is pretty loving stupid, for instance. That's pretty common in a lot of varied mythological fiction for someone that has had sexual contact with an actual God. Dying, becoming catatonic, going crazy, hair turning white, other gods getting pissy and cursing them in various ways, etc. I never found that as standing out at all because it's (and similar is) a common side-effect of god-sex in fiction.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:23
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Unacknowledged posted:This is how I originally interpreted it, someone mentioning the love triangle thing seemed ridiculous, but this series is not without other ridiculous things as well. Caska being raped retarded is pretty loving stupid, for instance. I don't know, being whisked away to a portal of Hell while watching all your comrades being killed, and then being raped by your former crush/savior and commander is pretty loving shocking. It's not ideal, and it does piss all over her character, but I'd like to think Miura is a little better than pulling a Stephen King-like trope of a magical retard. When someone's whole world crumbles around them, it's not completely illogical to think someone might lose their poo poo. Skull Knight says that being cured might not be what she wants because maybe it's easier to shut down and not have to deal? edit because I type guud
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Oct 22, 2014 19:07
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Oct 22, 2014 19:09
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Also Griffith's happy world of order consists of everyone being constantly menaced by flesh eating rape monsters so they all flock to him for protection.
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Oct 22, 2014 19:30
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Darko posted:That's pretty common in a lot of varied mythological fiction for someone that has had sexual contact with an actual God. Dying, becoming catatonic, going crazy, hair turning white, other gods getting pissy and cursing them in various ways, etc. I never found that as standing out at all because it's (and similar is) a common side-effect of god-sex in fiction. I guess this is what I'll have to remind myself of, as it's the only explanation that seems 'realistic' in the sense of the universe of the story. I still think it's really silly though. Yatsuha posted:I don't know, being whisked away to a portal of Hell while watching all your comrades being killed, and then being raped by your former crush/savior and commander is pretty loving shocking. It's not ideal, and it does piss all over her character, but I'd like to think Miura is a little better than pulling a Stephen King-like trope of a magical retard. When someone's whole world crumbles around them, it's not completely illogical to think someone might lose their poo poo. Skull Knight says that being cured might not be what she wants because maybe it's easier to shut down and not have to deal? I understand it's a pretty traumatic experience, but we've seen several other characters deal with extreme situations like the eclipse (though without the prolonged rape scene) and they all seem to cope pretty well. Guts has REALLY seen some stuff and definitely has some clear mental damage as a result, but has he lost the ability to communicate? It's really, really stupid. Darko's explanation I guess can work as an acceptable reasoning, but I still find it really out there for the story to take that turn. A lot of Berserk is rooted in history, and then some major mysticism with monsters, gods, magic, other dimensions, and all sorts of other mythical things. Suspension of disbelief is required to enjoy the series, and it's really stupid for me to pick on a point when so many other things in the story are clearly fictional, I just hate how lazy it feels to just immediately knock out a pretty decently fleshed out character all of a sudden. I'm sure she'll have more purpose, and hopefully sooner than later, but for now she's just useless other than a quick and cheap vehicle for creating drama. I'm glad Miura doesn't abuse that, as a lot of other writers would just have her wandering into danger at every single opportunity.
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Oct 22, 2014 19:43
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i'm permaretarded mercenary niggerstomper58
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Oct 22, 2014 19:45
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I get the impression that Guts is exceptionally resilient, and some what of a monster himself.
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Oct 22, 2014 21:53
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he definately has some sort of psychosis, losing of bearing when he is slaying demons.
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Oct 22, 2014 22:59
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Griffith tries to run away right before the eclipse. I think there is more to it than just seeing Guts and Casca no longer making him the primary focus of their attention, he might also have realized that his presence would have ruined that relationship. And I always got the impression that Griffith actually tried to commit suicide by pointy wooden stick, but failed at that. Griffith repeatedly stated that Guts was the only one to make him lose sight of his dream. I think that it's not until Guts leaves that Griffith actually realizes just how much that friendship means to him. Femto is definitely shallow compared to pre-eclipse Griffith, he sacrificed his humanity to become a Godhand. Still, just the fact that he tries to prove that to himself (by raping casca and later coming to visit Guts and Casca) shows some uncertainty. I've always wondered if Guts and Casca still being alive despite being his sacrifices give him some sort of weakness.
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Oct 22, 2014 23:07
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Unacknowledged posted:I understand it's a pretty traumatic experience You don't, apparently.
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Oct 22, 2014 23:36
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Bloodyshinta1 posted:I get the impression that Guts is exceptionally resilient, and some what of a monster himself. Well Guts has a laundry list of bad poo poo that has happened to him since birth. He was born from a corpse, raped as a child and then finding out that said rapist bought Guts from his surrogate father. Add on to that he's been treated like poo poo by said father and took part in wars for as long as he could stand. It's not a big stretch to assume that Guts is a bit more mentally hardy than most, though not enough to be a complete psycho in his own right.
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Oct 22, 2014 23:47
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Casca being raped retarded is almost certainly the most frustrating thing about the whole series. If it weren't for what a stupid narrative choice that was I would be singing Berserk from the highest mountains to virtually everybody I know. I understand Miura felt the need to write Casca out of the story to focus on Guts and the revenge bits post-Eclipse, but he took the worst possible approach. If Casca had just gone Ophelia-crazy, catatonic, or fallen into some kind of severe agoraphobia rather than mentally deficient and incapable of communication I would have been a lot less upset, just some acknowledgement of an ordinary human being dealing with (or denying) crippling trauma rather than turning a really compelling heroine into a literal drooling woman-child. I do want to genuinely recognize that Miura has come a long ways when it comes to writing female characters, and as totally loving stupid as this sounds, there hasn't been a rape in Berserk for a pretty long time. Though, I have a feeling the reason Miura's dawdling on getting us to Elfhelm is because he knows, and I think we know, that what happens to Casca there is going to basically make or break the whole story. temple posted:I read an undeniable class commentary in Berserk. With the King, Griffith rose but the Hawks received status by association. Griffith's betrayal was against his class by sacrificing the Hawks for his sole advancement into the elite. I don't know about some of your other theories, but I think this is a really interesting angle of analysis people rarely discuss when talking about Berserk, even though through Miura's interviews it's very apparently an intentional theme of the story. Personally I've always read Berserk as centrally a gnostic tale about the characters living in a world that is inherently evil and exploitative on not only a societal, but on a natural, cosmological, and existential level. To me that was always the most interesting theme in the story, which is why I absolutely loved the Black Swordsman material, but I've been a little sour about seeing that shelved since Miura started whipping together his system of nature magic. At this point I just want the plot to progress to see if he goes a little further with the implications of a world where causality is literally controlled by inter-dimensional manifestations of evil. Vedius Pollio fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 23, 2014 01:29
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I'm still wondering whether Griffith is going to sacrifice everyone in his magic city to become Uber-God. I can't think of a reason that would work, except maybe it would be like Ganishka double-dipping and becoming a super-apostle. Or maybe he'll just do it for the sake of being evil. Griffith: "Mwuhahaha!"
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