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Lillith is a bungling rear end in a top hat character. This is usually reserved for the "Rat" like ones that get squashed. On a relatively powerful, central (hey, shes one of six, ill call it central) figure, It's coming across as... forced. Cant say it wont work, but its certainly not in the right hands creatively to MAKE it work.
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Oct 23, 2014 01:14
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Just did the Sub-Level 13 quests again, and I gotta say it's probably my favorite area in the whole series. Kinda reminds me of Fallout: New Vegas in how it feels, now that I think about it. Plus the quest reward is one of the best guns in the game.
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Oct 23, 2014 01:18
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Rookersh posted:Isn't it pretty much outright said that Roland actually does/did care about the people of Pandora, and did his best to protect them, Brick/Mordecai do not give any shits and are just following his lead because they are his friends, and Lilith just wants to protect herself because she's public enemy #1. While Roland does seem to be an alright dude most of the time, and maybe it is Lilith that simply dominated him, I simply don't feel BAD about him dying. Especially since, even if he is just trying to be the good guy, he still is LYING through his teeth to the BL2 crew about his relationship with Jack. And they started it. I know that doesn't make it RIGHT, but it does ruin their justifications about being these poor beset guys who Jack just rolled up over and took advantage. They started something, and then began losing, and then they played the victim to get the new Vault Hunters to save their asses. The PS doesn't really make Jack too much more sympathetic, but does boatloads to make us hate the BL1 guys (specifically, Lilith and Roland) Which is probably a complete accident. Skandranon fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 23, 2014 01:21
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I don't see Roland as having lied about his relationship with Jack. He said he almost got killed putting Jack into power, and that's 100% true.
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Oct 23, 2014 01:33
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Where was this? I don't remember that. I remember them all acting like Jack came out of nowhere with a robot army and a big H in the sky. They definitely didn't mention that they tried to kill him and gave him that mask.
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Oct 23, 2014 01:36
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wdarkk posted:I don't see Roland as having lied about his relationship with Jack. He said he almost got killed putting Jack into power, and that's 100% true. I always just assumed he was talking about beating the Destroyer.
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Oct 23, 2014 01:38
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WickedHate posted:I always just assumed he was talking about beating the Destroyer. Yeah, that.
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Oct 23, 2014 01:40
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Well since TPS didn't exist yet, he was. It describes his actions in this game just fine though.
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Oct 23, 2014 01:44
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I still think he could have opened up a little more, like about the part where they tried to stab Jack in the back for no (good) reason.
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Oct 23, 2014 01:52
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We've already established that Burch is a terrible writer, chances are he didn't plan that far in advance, also I imagine 2k Australia had some leeway in the story so we got what we got. They probably didn't think that the pre-sequel story would make the original crew look bad in retrospect. Kinda reminds me of how Kojima explained everything away in MGS4 in the most hackneyed way possible.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:01
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I don't really follow how Lilith and Roland are to blame in the thing between them and Jack for "starting it". Jack murders four innocent people in front of them in cold blood. The whole thing about Lilith punching Jack instead of killing him in the finale is super dumb, but I'm not really clear on how betraying a guy who literally murders people who have been nothing but helpful to him as soon as they outlive their usefulness is the action that's beyond the pale.
Reveilled fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 23, 2014 02:02
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Skandranon posted:I still think he could have opened up a little more, like about the part where they tried to stab Jack in the back for no (good) reason. You're saying that showing homicidal tendencies, creating a giant death laser (which has the capability to blow up a planet) out of the eye of an eldritch abomination, and implying that he manipulated you to acquire that eye isn't a good reason to off someone? Go on... 
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Oct 23, 2014 02:02
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wdarkk posted:Well since TPS didn't exist yet, he was. It describes his actions in this game just fine though. Speaking of things that happened before the sequel existed, it will always bother me that now instead of Angel lying to the vault hunters about the vault in BL1 to save the universe (revealed at the end of BL1), she lied about the vault so that Jack could come into power (revealed in the middle of BL2). They retconned the only reason I liked the ending of Borderlands 1! 
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Oct 23, 2014 02:11
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Father Wendigo posted:You're saying that showing homicidal tendencies, creating a giant death laser (which has the capability to blow up a planet) out of the eye of an eldritch abomination, and implying that he manipulated you to acquire that eye isn't a good reason to off someone? Go on... I think you're implying that they made up the entire plan in the 5 minutes after the Eye laser reveal, which is ridiculous. The plan was concocted pretty much when Moxie sent Roland and Lilith to find robot factory. And Moxie doesn't even say it's because of that, she just says "I gets a feeling you're evil because you killed a few people. Nevermind the thousands more we've killed over many years, we're good guys and it's ok when we do it." Spacing 4 scientists and lolzing is probably the least evil thing I've seen happen in Borderlands. Maybe a good case could have been made for the "turn on Jack" moment, but the writing as is sucks and instead makes Lilith, Moxie, and Roland look like jerks that just plain don't like Jack.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:15
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Reveilled posted:I don't really follow how Lilith and Roland are to blame in the thing between them and Jack for "starting it". Jack murders four innocent people in front of them in cold blood. The whole thing about Lilith punching Jack instead of killing him in the finale is super dumb, but I'm not really clear on how betraying a guy who literally murders people who have been nothing but helpful to him as soon as they outlive their usefulness is the action that's beyond the pale. I'm not defending Jack as a great guy, I'm saying that no one has any high ground anymore. Borderlands is clearly a crap-world with no heroes.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:18
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Skandranon posted:I think you're implying that they made up the entire plan in the 5 minutes after the Eye laser reveal, which is ridiculous. The plan was concocted pretty much when Moxie sent Roland and Lilith to find robot factory. And Moxie doesn't even say it's because of that, she just says "I gets a feeling you're evil because you killed a few people. Nevermind the thousands more we've killed over many years, we're good guys and it's ok when we do it." Spacing 4 scientists and lolzing is probably the least evil thing I've seen happen in Borderlands. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the plan was set up in the Robot Factory section of the game. I thought it was pretty drat obvious they came up with it after Jack sticks his allies out of the airlock, because that's a very clear "THIS IS WHAT I DO TO MY ALLIES, YOU'D BETTER KILL ME BEFORE I DO IT TO YOU" moment for him, Lilith's horrified reaction to that makes it clear this is the moment at which she wants to stop working for Jack, and Roland's reaction makes it clear that he wants to bide time until later on. Once Jack starts killing people working for him for no good reason, that puts everyone working for him into a kill-or-be-killed situation, and that is in itself a good reason to betray him before he betrays you.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:21
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Skandranon posted:I'm not defending Jack as a great guy, I'm saying that no one has any high ground anymore. Borderlands is clearly a crap-world with no heroes. As Cage the Elephant once sung, "I got bills to pay, I got mouths to feed, And ain't nothing in this world for free; No I can't slow down, I can't hold back, though you know I wish I could; No there ain't no rest for the wicked, until we close our eyes for good." And as The Heavy added, "This ain't no place for no hero; this ain't no place for no better man; this ain't no place for no hero to call home." The secret meanings were hidden in the opening songs. 
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Oct 23, 2014 02:29
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Reveilled posted:I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the plan was set up in the Robot Factory section of the game. I thought it was pretty drat obvious they came up with it after Jack sticks his allies out of the airlock, because that's a very clear "THIS IS WHAT I DO TO MY ALLIES, YOU'D BETTER KILL ME BEFORE I DO IT TO YOU" moment for him, Lilith's horrified reaction to that makes it clear this is the moment at which she wants to stop working for Jack, and Roland's reaction makes it clear that he wants to bide time until later on. It wasn't exactly no reason, it was just a poor reason. I also don't buy Lilith's 'horrified' reaction, considering everything they've done and for what reasons (money/loot). And they could have just punched him to death while they were alone in his office. If Lilith just acted like the self absorbed power junkie she was, I'd be fine with it. She want's to kill Jack for whatever reason, cool beans, np bro. Her acting like she is somehow a great person and has something over Athena when she really doesn't sounds a lot like how Jack rants at the end of BL2, except she isn't dying. Yet.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:29
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Reveilled posted:I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the plan was set up in the Robot Factory section of the game. I thought it was pretty drat obvious they came up with it after Jack sticks his allies out of the airlock, because that's a very clear "THIS IS WHAT I DO TO MY ALLIES, YOU'D BETTER KILL ME BEFORE I DO IT TO YOU" moment for him, Lilith's horrified reaction to that makes it clear this is the moment at which she wants to stop working for Jack, and Roland's reaction makes it clear that he wants to bide time until later on. One of the scientists was a traitor, it wasn't for no reason. Everyone jack killed or tried to kill had already betrayed him.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:30
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FirstPersonShitter posted:One of the scientists was a traitor, it wasn't for no reason. Everyone jack killed or tried to kill had already betrayed him. Maybe Jack should have acted sad about doing it, then it would have been ok?
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Oct 23, 2014 02:31
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Moxxie pretty clearly planned on betraying Jack from the start. She helped him get back to Helios because otherwise everyone was going to die, but there's nothing to indicate she ever planned to actually let him have control of the giant death-laser afterwards. She knew him from before the game; they dated at one point (Moxxie mentions this) and remember, she wasn't Jack's first choice on who to go to for help, so he clearly didn't expect a warm welcome from her. Since Moxxie already had a good relationship with Roland and Lilith, it's quite plausible that they're in it from the start, too. Remember they turn Jack down cold at the start before you even talk to Moxxie, and then later on they just mysteriously start helping him out of the blue.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:34
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Skandranon posted:Maybe Jack should have acted sad about doing it, then it would have been ok? everyone in every game so far has loved killing dudes
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Oct 23, 2014 02:37
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Zurai posted:Moxxie pretty clearly planned on betraying Jack from the start. She helped him get back to Helios because otherwise everyone was going to die, but there's nothing to indicate she ever planned to actually let him have control of the giant death-laser afterwards. She knew him from before the game; they dated at one point (Moxxie mentions this) and remember, she wasn't Jack's first choice on who to go to for help, so he clearly didn't expect a warm welcome from her. Without a little more back story on how the relationship went, her "I can see the evil in your SOUL" really doesn't work for me. She's not exactly a great person herself. FirstPersonShitter posted:everyone in every game so far has loved killing dudes That's my entire point, Lilith suddenly valuing human life doesn't make sense. Jack/Nisha/Wilhelm/Athena are the only ones being honest here.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:37
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So... the fight with Zorpedon. Zarpedon. whatever. After you blow up her armored suit. Either I suck, or that's some bullshit right there.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:38
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Skandranon posted:It wasn't exactly no reason, it was just a poor reason. I also don't buy Lilith's 'horrified' reaction, considering everything they've done and for what reasons (money/loot). And they could have just punched him to death while they were alone in his office. I don't recall Lilith or Roland ever murdering anyone working with them? Indeed I don't recall Lilith ever murdering anyone who wasn't trying to kill her, or trying to kill innocent people. Sure Lilith looks out for herself, and kills people who attack her, but she doesn't straight up murder her friends (or shove her kids into a cybertnetic prison throne), so I don't feel uncomfortable at all in saying that Lilith is a step above Jack in terms of heroics. And I don't follow why "this guy just killed people working with him before my very eyes due to paranoid insanity, and he now has access to a giant death laser that can literally destoy a moon" isn't a really good reason for betraying someone. If they'd just beat Jack to death in his office, there's no guarantee they'd have been able to shut down the laser. They betray Jack the very moment their goal of saving Elpis is secure, which is totally the correct moment to betray him.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:38
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FirstPersonShitter posted:One of the scientists was a traitor, it wasn't for no reason. Everyone jack killed or tried to kill had already betrayed him. Really? It seemed more likely that the other explanations in the guy's answer were the real reason the defenses stayed under Zarpedon's control.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:39
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Skandranon posted:Without a little more back story on how the relationship went, her "I can see the evil in your SOUL" really doesn't work for me. She's not exactly a great person herself. She said she felt he was a psycopath waiting to happen. That's exactly what everyone else thinks about Jack, and it's not exactly difficult to figure out. He jokes about shooting and killing being awesome from about three seconds after you meet him.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:39
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Reveilled posted:I don't recall Lilith or Roland ever murdering anyone working with them? Indeed I don't recall Lilith ever murdering anyone who wasn't trying to kill her, or trying to kill innocent people. Sure Lilith looks out for herself, and kills people who attack her, but she doesn't straight up murder her friends (or shove her kids into a cybertnetic prison throne), so I don't feel uncomfortable at all in saying that Lilith is a step above Jack in terms of heroics. Lilith shows up on a bus to Pandora because she's heard you can open a vault and get lots of money. She then begins shooting pretty much everything that moves until she gets to the vault. If she never shot any innocent people it's because there simply aren't any on Pandora. And yeah, it is definitely in their interests to betray Jack and shut down his laser, etc. My problem is with their holier-than-thou attitude. If they were just honest murdering psychos like EVERYONE EVER IN THIS GAME, then I'd have no complaint.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:43
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FirstPersonShitter posted:One of the scientists was a traitor, it wasn't for no reason. Everyone jack killed or tried to kill had already betrayed him. Actually, none of them did. The moles were Lilith, Moxxie, and Roland.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:44
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Zurai posted:She said she felt he was a psycopath waiting to happen. That's exactly what everyone else thinks about Jack, and it's not exactly difficult to figure out. He jokes about shooting and killing being awesome from about three seconds after you meet him. That's kind of how everyone in all the games act. Salvador, Gaige, Tiny Tina all make worse jokes and say crazier things while killing people.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:45
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:As Cage the Elephant once sung, "I got bills to pay, I got mouths to feed, And ain't nothing in this world for free; No I can't slow down, I can't hold back, though you know I wish I could; No there ain't no rest for the wicked, until we close our eyes for good." Fascinating. Now tell me, where does the black dragon factor into this?
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Oct 23, 2014 02:48
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Skandranon posted:That's kind of how everyone in all the games act. Salvador, Gaige, Tiny Tina all make worse jokes and say crazier things while killing people. Yeah, but none of them have a giant death laser capable of destroying entire planets. Jack does. Moxxie doesn't seek him out to kill him, but again she very clearly had no intention of ever letting him regain control of the Eye of Helios, for good reason. Remember, his plan was to start firing the laser at Pandora.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:50
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Eschatos posted:Fascinating. Now tell me, where does the black dragon factor into this? The black dragon we are riding on is the rollercoaster of a plot that comprises the story in this game. It's all relevant. Mind blown.
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Oct 23, 2014 02:51
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Skandranon posted:Lilith shows up on a bus to Pandora because she's heard you can open a vault and get lots of money. She then begins shooting pretty much everything that moves until she gets to the vault. If she never shot any innocent people it's because there simply aren't any on Pandora. There are innocent people on Pandora though? The town of New Haven, for example? What about the people of Sanctuary? Even people who are not exactly innocent, like Tannis, Lilith and the vault hunters don't shoot because they aren't hostile. The only people Lilith and the other vault hunters shoot are the people who would shoot her first. EDIT: This discussion is giving me flashbacks to the thread for the last Tomb Raider game where some people thought Lara was just as bad as the murderous human-sacrificing rapists trying to kill her because she killed a lot of them when a lot of them all tried to kill her. Reveilled fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 23, 2014 02:51
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It wouldn't have killed them to have the other Hyperion mercs show up in the cutscene and fight off Lilith and force her to flee after she ambushes Jack while Athena just stands off in disgust. Simple change that would've not made Lilith seem like a loving retard who didn't finish an enemy she had no pity for when she could've.
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Oct 23, 2014 03:01
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Zurai posted:Yeah, but none of them have a giant death laser capable of destroying entire planets. Jack does. Moxxie doesn't seek him out to kill him, but again she very clearly had no intention of ever letting him regain control of the Eye of Helios, for good reason. Remember, his plan was to start firing the laser at Pandora. Again, I don't have a problem with their betrayal as a matter of practicality or Jack deserving to have a space laser. It's how sanctimonious Lilith acts later on about the whole affair.
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Oct 23, 2014 03:05
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When have Roland or Lilith killed completely innocent people, though? That's the big issue here. It doesn't make their gently caress up any less of a gently caress up, but they had justified reasoning.Cream-of-Plenty posted:And as The Heavy added, "This ain't no place for no hero" I was pretty sad when they didn't cut to credits after saying that like they did with "No rest for the wicked" last game, considering this was all about the villains.
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Oct 23, 2014 03:06
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The BL2 vault hunters have indirectly killed Innocent people via helping Scooter.
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Oct 23, 2014 03:13
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wdarkk posted:The BL2 vault hunters have indirectly killed Innocent people via helping Scooter. Do you mean Ellie? I forgot about the Zaffords.
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Oct 23, 2014 03:23
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The BL2 cast are a collection of amoral mercenaries who got caught up in something bigger than themselves and wanted to avenge a betrayal an attempt on their own lives. The BL1 cast are a collection of amoral mercenaries who got caught up in something bigger than themselves and (in BL2) wanted to avenge a betrayal and an attempt on their own lives. Among them: a psycho (and the only one of them who has any moral qualms about killing innocent people), a handful of people who just kill for fun, a girl who sees all of Pandora as one big lab to test out her murderbot (and canonically, Gaige has the highest bounty on her head of any of the Vault Hunters), and Lilith, who I think is actually more autistic than Tannis. These are not good people. This is GTA. It's a tale of criminals betraying each other in a mad race for power and purple loot. Okay, blue loot. They'd settle for green.
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Oct 23, 2014 03:27
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