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Cheekio posted:It's not like accupunture and herbal medicine are equivalent to homeopathy. They hold up to double blind clinical trials; they're not scientifically derived but they're not a waste of tree bark either. I'd very much like you to link or cite some of these double-blind clinical trials that acupuncture and herbal medicine hold up to; something printed in a reliable and significant medical journal. Acupuncture itself, I can assure you that it does nothing but have some very vague pain relief effects, but the same effects can be measured by random needle insertion; it's nothing more than the well-recorded phenomenon that one source of pain will distract from another source of pain combined with a degree of placebo effect. As for herbal medicine, some herbs might have some medicinal effect, but in a completely unpredictable manner because there's no way to control dosage of the active ingredients or the effects of other compounds present alongside whatever active ingredients are found in the herbs. It's like was mentioned earlier: some herbal medicinal treatments might indeed have some effect, but there's a reason we don't drink willow bark tea anymore in lieu of aspirin (because it will literally destroy your stomach lining, something that was well-reduced by turning willow bark into actual medicine).
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Oct 23, 2014 04:16
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Yes, when alternative medicine is effective there's a word for it: Medicine.
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Oct 23, 2014 04:25
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KIM JONG TRILL posted:The Green party is a loving joke. It's basically just Hippies: the Political Party. If you want to talk about "real" or at least somewhat effective environmentalists you need to look to the Sierra Club, Conservation International, National Audobon Society, et al. This is absolutely true. While anti-GMO views are common among environmentalists (including ones I've worked with), anti-vaccine views are not, though anti-nuclear power beliefs are also common. I suppose it depends on how you want to define environmentalists. As things like conservation, "eco-friendly" stuff and generally respecting the environment become more widespread, what we think of as environmentalists will probably become more extreme, even though it's not really accurate.
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Oct 23, 2014 04:29
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It's worth noting that the California Greens don't explicitly endorse anti-vaccine attitudes, but they do allude to it (on the same page I linked before):quote:The right to informed consent for any individual without force and without coercion relative to his/her own body for any medical, dental, pharmaceutical, or other procedure that involves body tissue/organ extraction, insertion, injection, sampling, or imaging. The informed consent must be verifiable, and neither forced nor coerced. Mandatory vaccinations might fall under "injection under force/coercion", although this is probably not the intent of the above clause in the platform. Cultural competence of care (also mentioned) might also allude to it, however. On the other hand, if we want something more concrete from the hippy side of things, there's always their plank to tax all media which features gratuitous violence with a 50% surtax.
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Oct 23, 2014 07:16
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ReindeerF posted:Yes, when alternative medicine is effective there's a word for it: Medicine. Alternative medicine is by definition either not proven to work, or proven not to work. As ReindeerF so astutely pointed out, when alternative medicine is proven to work, we call it medicine.
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Oct 23, 2014 08:06
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ComradeCosmobot posted:It's worth noting that the California Greens don't explicitly endorse anti-vaccine attitudes, but they do allude to it (on the same page I linked before): "Mandatory" vaccinations aren't actually mandatory though, and the paragraph you quoted just sounds like a very detailed version of informed consent, which is already pretty much sacrosanct in modern medicine. e: the paragraph could certainly be a dog whistle for vaccine and conspiracy nuts, though
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Oct 23, 2014 14:14
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Jeanne Shaheen is only 2.5 points over carpet bagging moron Scott Brown in the RCP avg of polls. If that isn't a sign of a miserable election day for dems than nothing is. That should be a 15 point race in that state.
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Oct 23, 2014 14:45
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A 15 point race in a state that Obama only won by 5 in 2012?
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Oct 23, 2014 14:57
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:A 15 point race in a state that Obama only won by 5 in 2012? She's a non relatively controversial senator who's approval ratings in the state were around 60% at the beginning of the year and Scott Brown is a carpet bagging moron. Maybe it shouldn't be 15% but it shouldn't be close.
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Oct 23, 2014 15:16
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http://www.news4jax.com/politics/rick-scott-to-write-check-for-reelection-bid/29296068quote:Gov. Rick Scott, who reportedly spent about $73 million of his own money to get elected in 2010, will soon dip into his personal wealth in an effort to retain the Governor's Mansion. Sweet.
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Oct 23, 2014 15:16
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Scott using the money he stole from Medicaid to try to buy another term. Isn't US democracy grand?
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Oct 23, 2014 15:19
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In another article he was whining about Crist's "billionaire backer." It's not surprising in light of his latest ad, where Scott pretends Crist is running tons of attack ads while Scott is playing nice. turnip kid fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 23, 2014 15:19
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mcmagic posted:She's a non relatively controversial senator who's approval ratings in the state were around 60% at the beginning of the year and Scott Brown is a carpet bagging moron. Maybe it shouldn't be 15% but it shouldn't be close. From what I have read (and heard) is that congress's approval is so bad that everyone is hurting for it. Also, Scott Brown dropped the pretense and went full racist in NH because it's NH and seeing anyone other than white outside of Manchester is like finding a unicorn.
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Oct 23, 2014 15:23
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mcmagic posted:She's a non relatively controversial senator who's approval ratings in the state were around 60% at the beginning of the year and Scott Brown is a carpet bagging moron. Maybe it shouldn't be 15% but it shouldn't be close. But he isn't a moron, he's a boring moderate NE Republican who became infamous for winning an unwinnable special election with a pickup truck-based campaign. Shaheen's an incumbent, who are not having fun this cycle. See also: McConnell only being up by 3 in Kentucky. And nobody will give a poo poo that he lived in Massachusetts, just like nobody here would if the Super-Leftist moved from an adjacent state and ran for their Senate seat.
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Oct 23, 2014 15:31
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:But he isn't a moron, he's a boring moderate NE Republican who became infamous for winning an unwinnable special election with a pickup truck-based campaign. Shaheen's an incumbent, who are not having fun this cycle. See also: McConnell only being up by 3 in Kentucky. And nobody will give a poo poo that he lived in Massachusetts, just like nobody here would if the Super-Leftist moved from an adjacent state and ran for their Senate seat. Have you actually watched him speak for more than 1 second? He's one of the emptyest suits in public life. His election in MA was a perfect storm of political climate and incompetent opponent so i wouldn't read much into that. And if you think that no one gives a poo poo that he's carpet bagging you're just wrong. It's been a huge issue in the race. The Shaheen/McConnell comparison isn't a good one. Shaheen isn't 15 points underwater in popularity in her state the way McConnell is.
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Oct 23, 2014 15:36
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mcmagic posted:Jeanne Shaheen is only 2.5 points over carpet bagging moron Scott Brown in the RCP avg of polls. If that isn't a sign of a miserable election day for dems than nothing is. That should be a 15 point race in that state. Welp a new poll just posted so now it's down to 1.6
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Oct 23, 2014 15:40
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mcmagic posted:She's a non relatively controversial senator who's approval ratings in the state were around 60% at the beginning of the year and Scott Brown is a carpet bagging moron. Maybe it shouldn't be 15% but it shouldn't be close. The guy won in Massachusetts. He's a carpet-bagger yes, but he's also quite skilled at playing a reasonable republican. Don't underestimate him (despite Coakley busily proving that no, it wasn't a fluke she lost).
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Oct 23, 2014 15:44
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evilweasel posted:The guy won in Massachusetts. He's a carpet-bagger yes, but he's also quite skilled at playing a reasonable republican. Don't underestimate him (despite Coakley busily proving that no, it wasn't a fluke she lost). I think I'm perfectly fine in underestimating him. I just try to make sure that I don't underestimate the stupidity of the electorate.
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Oct 23, 2014 15:53
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Idran posted:I'd very much like you to link or cite some of these double-blind clinical trials that acupuncture and herbal medicine hold up to; something printed in a reliable and significant medical journal. Sure, here's a couple of studies where accupuncture is tested vs fake needling and appears to have effects against chronic lower back pain, tension headaches, and here's a study testing echenecea vs cold symptoms. All show statistically significant improvements vs their control groups. Idran posted:Acupuncture itself, I can assure you that it does nothing but have some very vague pain relief effects, but the same effects can be measured by random needle insertion; it's nothing more than the well-recorded phenomenon that one source of pain will distract from another source of pain combined with a degree of placebo effect. If you could drum up some evidence to substantiate the well-recorded phenomena you're talking about, that would help me understand your point. Idran posted:As for herbal medicine, some herbs might have some medicinal effect, but in a completely unpredictable manner because there's no way to control dosage of the active ingredients or the effects of other compounds present alongside whatever active ingredients are found in the herbs. It's like was mentioned earlier: some herbal medicinal treatments might indeed have some effect, but there's a reason we don't drink willow bark tea anymore in lieu of aspirin (because it will literally destroy your stomach lining, something that was well-reduced by turning willow bark into actual medicine). The most herbal of herbal medicines: Smoking pot has a number of positive health effects, and I don't think there's a dosage, or active ingredient, or predictability issue. Edit: My point is, again, herbal medicine != homeopathy. People aren't idiots for taking echenecea. Pythagoras a trois fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 23, 2014 16:00
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Cheekio posted:Sure, here's a couple of studies where accupuncture is tested vs fake needling and appears to have effects against chronic lower back pain, tension headaches, Oh dear. First, acupuncture's publication bias is strong and well-known. These meta-analyses (both of which only find tiny positive results) also pool together studies using different types of sham acupuncture as the controls. Some did needle insertion at the "wrong" points, while others did superficial needle poking. The latter (besides making it impossible to blind the caregiver) also only shows efficacy of sticking needles in, not "meridians." Finally, both meta-analyses had experienced acupuncturists rate how good the technique was of the studies, and they disagreed with each other quite a bit. quote:and here's a study testing echenecea vs cold symptoms. All show statistically significant improvements vs their control groups. Which disappears in the meta-analysis: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD000530.pub3/abstract
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Oct 23, 2014 17:04
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To explain why the "alternative medicine" can find statistically significant results - statistically significant simply means that, assuming the null hypothesis (that the thing is worthless compared to a placebo) you'd get the result you got by chance only one out of 20-100 times (depending on the confidence interval used). But when you've got something with as much quacks believing in it as this, you're going to have 20-100 studies, and therefore one, by chance, will appear statistically significant. You pick that one, ignore the rest, and it seems proven. You notice the other failed tests, and you can figure out what happened. That said, this is a better subject for a different thread.
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Oct 23, 2014 17:10
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Sam Wang is listing possible governor changes (most of which are to Dems): http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119926/2014-midterm-elections-republican-wave-wont-include-governorships
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Oct 23, 2014 17:22
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mcmagic posted:She's a non relatively controversial senator who's approval ratings in the state were around 60% at the beginning of the year and Scott Brown is a carpet bagging moron. Maybe it shouldn't be 15% but it shouldn't be close. New Hampshire is ground zero for carpetbagging morons though. Brown's found his natural constituency.
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Oct 23, 2014 19:31
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evilweasel posted:That said, this is a better subject for a different thread. Here's a thread destined to be abandoned: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3675600
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Oct 23, 2014 20:10
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:Sam Wang is listing possible governor changes (most of which are to Dems): http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119926/2014-midterm-elections-republican-wave-wont-include-governorships Isn't Oregon down by a lot now too?
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Oct 23, 2014 20:41
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computer parts posted:Isn't Oregon down by a lot now too? No, the poll that was released today asked a sub-sample of 407 people who said they had been following the news about the Governor's wife whether that news would change the way they voted and 18% of those people said they'd flip to voting Republican over it, but the sample wasn't a likely, or even registered, voter screen and the sample is too small to be representative of public opinion.
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Oct 23, 2014 20:47
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Jeff McCormick, independent candidate for MA governor, is basically Nelson Mandela, according to Morgan Freeman impersonator hired to narrate Jeff's ad.
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Oct 23, 2014 20:59
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Not really important to anything, but I found the following funny. So CT is also voting on an amendment to the state constitution to expand absentee voting(basically to make it so anyone can mail in a ballot if they feel like it. So, how's the Republican take on this? Let's check out the party's chairmen from New Haven, where about 9 Republicans live in a city of 130,000.quote:Republican Town Chair Richter Elser (who did not attend the forum) said he too is unconcerned about increased fraud. He noted that “everything seems to work fine” in early-voting mail-in states like Oregon. He worries more about opportunities for fraud under the current law allowing same-day voter registration on Election Day, he said. “We depend on older, retired individuals who are putting in very long hours and have very good intentions” to run the polls. Question #1’s passage would offer a better alternative for enabling more people to vote, he said. “In general, anything that increases participation is good,” Elser said. Alright, I mean I still think he's spouting BS about same-day registration but he's being practical. What about the state party chairman, a guy who doesn't have to deal with a city that voted 9-1 for Obama. quote:The state’s Republican Party chairman, Jerry Labriola, said in an interview that he sees no reason to “tinker with the Constitution” in this case. Our sacred constitutional election day! Voter Fraud! Democrats! Urban places!(weird how voter fraud only seems to happen in places that are less than 40% white)! 
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Oct 23, 2014 21:29
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Has Dick "Toejam" Morris weighed in with any hilarious 2014 Senate/Governor predictions?
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Oct 23, 2014 21:36
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FMguru posted:Has Dick "Toejam" Morris weighed in with any hilarious 2014 Senate/Governor predictions? None that I know of, but about a month ago I saw a CNBC ad advertising his book on how Obama's trying to destroy the Republican Party or some poo poo like that.
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Oct 23, 2014 21:38
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FMguru posted:Has Dick "Toejam" Morris weighed in with any hilarious 2014 Senate/Governor predictions? Mitt Romney will win by 6 points
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Oct 23, 2014 21:38
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FMguru posted:Has Dick "Toejam" Morris weighed in with any hilarious 2014 Senate/Governor predictions? He's too busy shilling his new book about how Obama and Hillary are tag teaming the very foundations of the two party system by trying to destroy the republicans and establish themselves as tyrants. Dick "literally lost his job because he couldn't keep his foot fetish in check, there's no glib nickname that captures this right" Morris is saying that because the right reacts so horribly to the mere thought of calling a black man 'sir' or taking orders from a woman, it's the fault of the black man and woman for putting themselves in public.
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Oct 23, 2014 21:40
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Dick "literally lost his job because he couldn't keep his foot fetish in check, there's no glib nickname that captures this right" Morris Again: he blew up his career in order to impress a hooker.
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Oct 23, 2014 21:44
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FMguru posted:He lost his job because he couldn't stop blabbing confidential White House secrets to a prostitute to impress her. God drat I forgot that he didn't lose his job because he wouldn't stop going to foot hookers, but because he couldn't stop trying to impress them with his insider knowledge. Literally every post about Morris makes him sadder and sadder.
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Oct 23, 2014 21:47
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For CT goons, if you want more in the saga of Tom Foley being such an empty suit he makes Mitt Romney look principled..... http://ctmirror.org/foley-struggles-on-a-deep-dive-into-housing-policy/ Christ, the guy didn't even know in CT unlike most states public housing is in good part a state responsibility.
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Oct 23, 2014 22:17
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Trabisnikof posted:While you can find idiots behind every issue, there are of course actual reasons not to expand this specific pipeline. Particularly the environmental risk of this particular kind of crude crossing wilderness and American complicity in the consequences of the oil sands being the biggest. But I imagine that since we can't get a carbon tax and our other pipelines are leaking, we might as well do nothing right? Which leaks less? Old, sometimes half a century old, pipelines with little opportunity for full shutdown and refit + rail and road transport or new pipelines which will allow rerouting around the existing ones?
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Oct 23, 2014 22:26
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Nintendo Kid posted:Which leaks less? Old, sometimes half a century old, pipelines with little opportunity for full shutdown and refit + rail and road transport or new pipelines which will allow rerouting around the existing ones? Dunno, were the old ones made well and the new one designed-by and built-by people like the ones behind the F-35? Its not like new is always better when design and work are going to the lowest bidder.
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Oct 23, 2014 22:30
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Nintendo Kid posted:Which leaks less? Old, sometimes half a century old, pipelines with little opportunity for full shutdown and refit + rail and road transport or new pipelines which will allow rerouting around the existing ones? That's a false dichotomy since pipelines don't magically all go the same places and pipeline companies can repair their current ones if they wanted to spend the money. And its not like Chevron will get to shut down their old pipelines just because Transcanada has a new pipeline, instead they'll both get used. So to answer your question: old pipe will leak less than old pipe and new pipe both operating together. [.1 < .1 + .0001, QED]
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Oct 23, 2014 22:36
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Nintendo Kid posted:Which leaks less? Old, sometimes half a century old, pipelines with little opportunity for full shutdown and refit + rail and road transport or new pipelines which will allow rerouting around the existing ones? Well, seeing as how TransCanada already does its best to cut corners when building pipelines, the new ones probably leak at least as much or more. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-05-30/the-real-reason-keystone-xl-might-fail BusinessWeek posted:During one week in September, 72 percent, or almost three-quarters, of the welds on the “safest pipeline in the world” required redoing. (TransCanada, for its part, says it has addressed the PHMSA’s concerns, and you can read its response in writing here [PDF].) Throughout the Keystone XL fight, TransCanada has maintained that the chance of a spill is remote, and that its pipelines are state-of-the-art. But the implications of TransCanada’s inferior welding on its Southern leg are precisely why the Keystone XL has met with such fierce resistance on the ground in Nebraska. It’s there the planned pipe will pass over the Ogallala aquifer, which irrigates much of the Great Plains, and directly and indirectly supports millions of American jobs—and that’s not counting all the drinking water. Spun Dog fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 23, 2014 22:57
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Trabisnikof posted:That's a false dichotomy since pipelines don't magically all go the same places and pipeline companies can repair their current ones if they wanted to spend the money. And its not like Chevron will get to shut down their old pipelines just because Transcanada has a new pipeline, instead they'll both get used. It's not a false dichotomy, the Keystone XL project is explicitly about providing an alternate route to the Keystone Pipeline that already exists. You are wrong.
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Oct 23, 2014 23:02
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