Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
mkay0
Nov 7, 2003

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher
2010, watch it go to fire

Very curious how this all works out for you. I worked in the logistics field for several years, and amazon was one of our clients. My anecdotal experience is the same as others ITT, I hear folks work big hours, but make solid coin.

Good luck to you.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Dwight Eisenhower
Jan 24, 2006

Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.
I really doubt it's anything but a moot point anyway, because I don't think Amazon will allow him to remote work.

Source: I get contacted about once every 2 months by an Amazon recruiter who has no ability to coordinate with the other Amazon recruiters who have contacted me in the past, and I tell them I won't work for them unless they will let me work remote.

bolind
Jun 19, 2005



Pillbug
Just had a pretty weird process with a recruiter. I felt I fit the position really well, and they pressed me for a salary, without me having interviewed with the actual company, nor them having fully detailed the particulars of the package. I stated "north of $X" with $X being what I make now and being the average salary for the top 25% of candidates with my profile and skills. Pressed for answers it then turns out the company has zero pension scheme or anything (which is not a dealbreaker but a pain in the rear end and expensive to do yourself on the side, which should be reflected in the salary.)

I then get an email back saying that the company offers "newest exciting technologies and possibilities" and are currently not able to match market rate, so they've decided to move forward with a different candidate.

Said company has been in an industry magazine recently and complained that they couldn't get people WITH MY EXACT SKILLS locally and that it was limiting their growth.

I'm quite confused. Either communication has gone very awry or else there's a very good reason why the company can't find skilled people.

mkay0
Nov 7, 2003

I crawled the earth, but now I'm higher
2010, watch it go to fire
What's confusing about it? They sound very short on cash.

Dwight Eisenhower
Jan 24, 2006

Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.

bolind posted:

Just had a pretty weird process with a recruiter. I felt I fit the position really well, and they pressed me for a salary, without me having interviewed with the actual company, nor them having fully detailed the particulars of the package. I stated "north of $X" with $X being what I make now and being the average salary for the top 25% of candidates with my profile and skills. Pressed for answers it then turns out the company has zero pension scheme or anything (which is not a dealbreaker but a pain in the rear end and expensive to do yourself on the side, which should be reflected in the salary.)

I then get an email back saying that the company offers "newest exciting technologies and possibilities" and are currently not able to match market rate, so they've decided to move forward with a different candidate.

Said company has been in an industry magazine recently and complained that they couldn't get people WITH MY EXACT SKILLS locally and that it was limiting their growth.

I'm quite confused. Either communication has gone very awry or else there's a very good reason why the company can't find skilled people.

This isn't weird, per se, it's one more case of employers not understanding economics. By and large there's a labor pool of people who can do exactly what employers like, but not at the price they want to pay.

Every time you see an employer complaining about not being able to find the employees they want, tack on "at the price I want to pay" at the end.

bolind
Jun 19, 2005



Pillbug
The weird thing is that by going through a recruiter they're spending a boatload on fees. They're also expanding the technical staff by 40% (if they fill all open positions) and they were supposedly in a big hurry to hire. But hey, if they have only limited funds then fine.

Millions
Sep 13, 2007

Do you believe in heroes?
I'm in a pretty lovely position money-wise at my current job. For background, I'm a copywriter/editor and this is my first job out of college. It's a small company with around 30 employees, and the president is a family friend. Here's been my financial history with the company:

Oct-Dec 2011: unpaid internship
Jan-Sept 2012: hourly, 35 hrs/week
Oct 2012-Sept 2013: asked for a raise and got salaried, less than 30k
Oct 2013-present: still salaried (less than 30k, no raise), got health benefits (which cost the company approximately $5k)

So where I'm sitting now is that with 3 years of experience for the company I'm still making entry-level money. I think I really shafted myself by accepting below 30k for my initial/current salary. The median national income for my position/experience is $55k, and I feel like there is no way I'm getting that much out of the company. I know that in 2001 someone was hired into a similar position as mine with 2 years of experience and made $28,500. The inflation rate says that comes out to around $40k, which is much more than I'm making with 3 years of experience. Tangentially, there also appears to be money floating around. In the past 3 months the president of the company has 1. hired a paid (!) intern, 2. hired a new marketing person, and 3. purchased all new camera equipment.

I guess what I'm asking is are there any negotiation tactics that would help me get a ~50% raise at a tiny company? Do I just walk in and say "Hey, I want $X because I'm worth it" or do I let them put together an offer before I give them a figure? I worry that giving them a realistic figure ($45k is what I think their max would be, and that's pushing it) will make them balk and shut down.

Kalenn Istarion
Nov 2, 2012

Maybe Senpai will finally notice me now that I've dropped :fivebux: on this snazzy av
To get the most leverage, you'll want to seriously consider searching for a job offer from a competitor before you try to have any salary discussion. This allows you to establish your market value and gives you the option to just walk if they don't increase to where you'd be happy with it. Unless you really like your current place for reasons other than pay, it sounds like you're getting short changed. Also see if you can find a more local salary reference. National averages are useful especially if your field is rare, but they don't account for local market dynamics or cost of living differences.

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.

I just got a LinkedIn message detailing a position and I'm quite interested in checking out the company. They say to send my resume and "salary requirements. " What's the right move here? My instincts say to throw out a moderately pie-in-the-sky figure, but I don't want to scare them off by quoting something too high. I currently make 65k, plus overtime and tuition reimbursement. I was thinking I'd shoot for $75k. Should I mention explicitly that I'm being compensated for school? I'm excited for the opportunity, but I don't want to blow things before I even get in for an interview.

Mary Fucking Poppins
Aug 1, 2002
Would anybody be willing to PM me and help look at a combination non-compete+confidentiality+invention agreement?

asur
Dec 28, 2012

Not a Children posted:

I just got a LinkedIn message detailing a position and I'm quite interested in checking out the company. They say to send my resume and "salary requirements. " What's the right move here? My instincts say to throw out a moderately pie-in-the-sky figure, but I don't want to scare them off by quoting something too high. I currently make 65k, plus overtime and tuition reimbursement. I was thinking I'd shoot for $75k. Should I mention explicitly that I'm being compensated for school? I'm excited for the opportunity, but I don't want to blow things before I even get in for an interview.

I would reccomend deflecting unless you're sure you know the range they will pay. You can do so in multiple ways, by stating that you believe both of you can agree on a reasonable salary, that it depends on the exact job you'd be doing, or that it depends on the benefits package.

Mary loving Poppins: If the agreement actually matters to you, you should consult a lawyer.

Dr_Amazing
Apr 15, 2006

It's a long story
I read a thing about people with no negotiating power making stealth changes to contracts before signing them. The idea being that you make small changes to remove the really bad stuff that won't get noticed until you're on your way out anyway. (Like non-compete clauses, or terms for breaking a lease)

supposedly as long as you aren't forging any signatures you aren't required to point out any changes or even state that changes have been made.

Putting aside the risk of someone noticing and getting pissed, is this something that could really work?

el3m
Jun 18, 2005
Grimey Drawer

Dr_Amazing posted:

I read a thing about people with no negotiating power making stealth changes to contracts before signing them. The idea being that you make small changes to remove the really bad stuff that won't get noticed until you're on your way out anyway. (Like non-compete clauses, or terms for breaking a lease)

I really don't see this one working when dealing with professional HR. And if noticed it would be really bad for you.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Mary loving Poppins posted:

Would anybody be willing to PM me and help look at a combination non-compete+confidentiality+invention agreement?

Get a lawyer that specializes in noncompetes to look at it.

Mary Fucking Poppins
Aug 1, 2002

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

Get a lawyer that specializes in noncompetes to look at it.
I had a lawyer friend look at it and I get what it says. I guess I'm struggling with whether to sign it. If I don't sign I'm out of a job (merger). It has a holdover clause that states I need to be penpals with my employer for a year after I leave and disclose all my future inventions. What's to stop me from saying I took a job as a janitor and I don't invent anything anymore? Maybe that's another question for a lawyer.

Dwight Eisenhower
Jan 24, 2006

Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.

Dr_Amazing posted:

I read a thing about people with no negotiating power making stealth changes to contracts before signing them. The idea being that you make small changes to remove the really bad stuff that won't get noticed until you're on your way out anyway. (Like non-compete clauses, or terms for breaking a lease)

supposedly as long as you aren't forging any signatures you aren't required to point out any changes or even state that changes have been made.

Putting aside the risk of someone noticing and getting pissed, is this something that could really work?

It totally works if you put aside the risk of someone noticing and getting pissed. In fact, that is the only risk. The document the company offers you and the document the company has managed to get other people to sign is irrelevant in a court of law, the only thing that matters is what you have agreed to, and what the company has accepted from you.

Millions posted:

I'm in a pretty lovely position money-wise at my current job. For background, I'm a copywriter/editor and this is my first job out of college. It's a small company with around 30 employees, and the president is a family friend. Here's been my financial history with the company:

Oct-Dec 2011: unpaid internship
Jan-Sept 2012: hourly, 35 hrs/week
Oct 2012-Sept 2013: asked for a raise and got salaried, less than 30k
Oct 2013-present: still salaried (less than 30k, no raise), got health benefits (which cost the company approximately $5k)

So where I'm sitting now is that with 3 years of experience for the company I'm still making entry-level money. I think I really shafted myself by accepting below 30k for my initial/current salary. The median national income for my position/experience is $55k, and I feel like there is no way I'm getting that much out of the company. I know that in 2001 someone was hired into a similar position as mine with 2 years of experience and made $28,500. The inflation rate says that comes out to around $40k, which is much more than I'm making with 3 years of experience. Tangentially, there also appears to be money floating around. In the past 3 months the president of the company has 1. hired a paid (!) intern, 2. hired a new marketing person, and 3. purchased all new camera equipment.

I guess what I'm asking is are there any negotiation tactics that would help me get a ~50% raise at a tiny company? Do I just walk in and say "Hey, I want $X because I'm worth it" or do I let them put together an offer before I give them a figure? I worry that giving them a realistic figure ($45k is what I think their max would be, and that's pushing it) will make them balk and shut down.

The way you describe your behavior appears very passive. Your comparable data is from 2001, you're not taking a position of communicating and setting realistic goals for your employer, and you have not yet done any material work toward trying to increase your compensation.

There are many people who are willing to do your job, and some of them are more active and assertive than you are being. These are the people who will be paid well, and you will continue to be paid poorly to make it easier for your company to pay them and make lots of money for the president and owners. Your performance has gotten you some concessions year over year. If you want to get paid market rates, you have to adopt the behavior of people in the market who get paid them. This means:

1) Go find competing offers. A competing offer is a company telling you specifically, that they are willing to pay you more money than you are making now. It also includes the exact number. If it lacks either of these two things it is not a competing offer. When you are getting these competing offers tell them what you want to make.

2) Communicate to your present employer that you have explored the market and feel you are worth more than you are being paid. Tell them that you would like them to compensate you commensurate with how the market values your work. This involves saying the exact number. If you really like where you work, you might discount from a competing offer. Make your demand SMART (Specific, Measurable, Actionable, Realistic, and Timely). A SMART demand would look like this:

"I've determined that we need to correct my salary. I have a competing offer from another firm for $50,000. I want my paycheck to reflect matching the compensation of $50,000 per annum within the next month."

It is specific because you give a number. It is measurable because either your paychecks reflect the amount or they do not. It is actionable because your employer's choices are very clearly described and can do something to achieve the measurable goal. It is realistic because the number is based on comparable compensation, and it is timely because they have to achieve the measurable goal within a specific time frame.

Failing to communicate your goal in this manner means you are setting yourself up to be disappointed, for example if you leave out the number you likely will get less than the number. If you leave out the time frame, you will be stalled on the raise becoming effective.

3) Be willing to leave. If your SMART goal is not met, you obtained an offer for better compensation elsewhere. Go take it! If you are not willing to leave, you will continue to be underpaid. Additionally if you go through this whole exercise and then fail to leave, you will demonstrate that you are willing to be walked all over. You will be taken further advantage of in the future.

Millions
Sep 13, 2007

Do you believe in heroes?


Thank you both, that's very much what I needed to hear. Time to grow a spine!

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Mary loving Poppins posted:

I had a lawyer friend look at it and I get what it says. I guess I'm struggling with whether to sign it. If I don't sign I'm out of a job (merger). It has a holdover clause that states I need to be penpals with my employer for a year after I leave and disclose all my future inventions. What's to stop me from saying I took a job as a janitor and I don't invent anything anymore? Maybe that's another question for a lawyer.

You need to figure out what the potential consequences are, and a lawyer can help you with that.

ohgodwhat
Aug 6, 2005

So I'm looking for advice about a poorly negotiated offer: I have a capped bonus. It's not the end of the world, but I've come to realize it's pretty mediocre for the industry I'm in and plenty of my peers do not have caps at all. I have some leverage: I'm good at what I do, which is relatively obscure, and we've had a ton of trouble finding even a junior capable of taking some of the easier work off of my hands. So I think they'd want me to stick around, and they're already planning to promote me. I have good relationships with all of the higher ups as well, so that's a plus.

Anyone have experience in negotiating this kind of thing?

Kalenn Istarion
Nov 2, 2012

Maybe Senpai will finally notice me now that I've dropped :fivebux: on this snazzy av
Similar to advice offered a couple posts up, you need to have a firm reference - go find a competitor that is willing to offer you the uncapped pay, or at a minimum a solid external salary reference, and then go ask for it. Worst that happens is they say no, and if you did the former you have the option to just leave.

Dwight Eisenhower
Jan 24, 2006

Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.

ohgodwhat posted:

So I'm looking for advice about a poorly negotiated offer: I have a capped bonus. It's not the end of the world, but I've come to realize it's pretty mediocre for the industry I'm in and plenty of my peers do not have caps at all. I have some leverage: I'm good at what I do, which is relatively obscure, and we've had a ton of trouble finding even a junior capable of taking some of the easier work off of my hands. So I think they'd want me to stick around, and they're already planning to promote me. I have good relationships with all of the higher ups as well, so that's a plus.

Anyone have experience in negotiating this kind of thing?


Kalenn Istarion posted:

Similar to advice offered a couple posts up, you need to have a firm reference - go find a competitor that is willing to offer you the uncapped pay, or at a minimum a solid external salary reference, and then go ask for it. Worst that happens is they say no, and if you did the former you have the option to just leave.

I mostly agree with Kalenn, except that you also hang out in the rich jerks thread and from your history there I think you are involved in some sort of financial industry. As such you'll be negotiating with people more willing to take risks. I think you've got slightly lesser odds of getting what you want from this employer as they'll be more willing to call your bluff. Additionally I'd offer up some temporal terms in the discussion, such as "Uncap my bonus pay and we won't need to revisit compensation for a year." as you are right now renegotiating the terms of your present employment.

The negotiating tactics we reiterate in this thread over and over are directed at the broad population of employees dealing with the broad population of employers. Both of those populations are more risk averse and less sophisticated in general than any trading firm. In your discussions I advise emphasizing that you're a known quantity, your past track record, and the already observed difficulty in expanding the personnel with your skill set. Get market data and present it calmly and coolly. Give them a time window that you're willing to be locked down to with the right terms and I wager you've got a good shot.

Pryor on Fire
May 14, 2013

they don't know all alien abduction experiences can be explained by people thinking saving private ryan was a documentary

Mary loving Poppins posted:

I had a lawyer friend look at it and I get what it says. I guess I'm struggling with whether to sign it. If I don't sign I'm out of a job (merger). It has a holdover clause that states I need to be penpals with my employer for a year after I leave and disclose all my future inventions. What's to stop me from saying I took a job as a janitor and I don't invent anything anymore? Maybe that's another question for a lawyer.

I routinely cross out sections of the contract that I think are obscene and put my initials next to them before signing and sending it back, this is all that is needed to indicate you don't agree to some provision and nullify it. I've done this with lots of employment contracts, some leases, and even a mortgage document. Only once has somebody noticed this and got kind of angry about it. It has however saved my rear end multiple times from language this is so stupid it is borderline slavery or theft.

You could argue that it's kind of shady and unethical to do since people aren't agreeing to what they thought they were, but since we live in a corporate plutocracy where institutions are increasingly abusing consumers, employees, and any individual they can with horrible clauses that are illegal in much of the rest of the world I don't feel bad about it all. gently caress them.

swenblack
Jan 14, 2004

Mary loving Poppins posted:

I had a lawyer friend look at it and I get what it says. I guess I'm struggling with whether to sign it. If I don't sign I'm out of a job (merger). It has a holdover clause that states I need to be penpals with my employer for a year after I leave and disclose all my future inventions. What's to stop me from saying I took a job as a janitor and I don't invent anything anymore? Maybe that's another question for a lawyer.
You need to talk to a lawyer who specializes in labor law. Whether the clause can be legally enforced varies from state to state and the exact wording of it matters a great deal. Also, whether the clause is ever enforced in practice varies significantly from industry to industry. Finally, it matters who is paying your company. If your salary is being billed to the federal government and you quit your job and "invent" something the next day, it won't go too well for you.

One other thing. With lawyers, you get what you pay for. There's a huge difference between a legal specialist who has been at the top of her field for decades and your friend who gradated from law school and is now working at Starbucks.

swenblack
Jan 14, 2004

ohgodwhat posted:

Anyone have experience in negotiating this kind of thing?
You've already got some great advice from KI and DE. I'd add that when you negotiate with professionals, it's important to separate the deal from the relationship. Keep the negotiation focused on your value to the company and away from emotional appeals--I.E. "Come on, ohgodwhat, I know you are a team player. You'd never walk away and leave us hanging."

I'd start the negotiation by stating what you said about being on track for promotion, being the only person who does what you do, you're well liked by leadership, etc. Then throw that all out and say that all that isn't why you're here. What really matters is the value you bring to the company. You should be able to state how much profit you're responsible for and support it with facts and data.

Skier
Apr 24, 2003

Fuck yeah.
Fan of Britches
I could use advice on negotiating an offer I've received. I asked for a salary and the written offer meets it by tacking on an almost $10,000 possible bonus to base salary. Benefits are more expensive and covers less than what my current position offers. My current position also has a bonus but with almost three years with the company, bonus is this nebulous thing where I can knock it out of the park all year and get no bonus. With these factors in mind, I requested if we could get closer to 5% more base salary than the offer.

The response was "no we can't meet your salary requirements and we retract the offer entirely."

My response stated we are having issues around required salary and desired, I'd like to keep communication open and am still interested. Their response was "we'll consider it."

Did I shoot myself in the foot? I was only hoping to pick up 2% to cover the difference in benefits, but I feel this might have soured them.

Xandu
Feb 19, 2006


It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
Eh, that's pretty weird. How pushy were you in negotiating that 5%


Edit: part of the problem may be that they feel like they met your offer and then you came back and asked for more, but it's very unusual for someone to pull an offer over a few grand, unless you were already at the top of their salary range. Regardless, you don't have much of a negotiating position at this point given that they're willing to pull the offer. So I think you have to really just consider whether you'd want to accept the offer as given (assuming it's still on the table) or not.

Xandu fucked around with this message at 11:24 on Oct 25, 2014

swenblack
Jan 14, 2004

Skier posted:

I could use advice on negotiating an offer I've received. I asked for a salary and the written offer meets it by tacking on an almost $10,000 possible bonus to base salary. Benefits are more expensive and covers less than what my current position offers. My current position also has a bonus but with almost three years with the company, bonus is this nebulous thing where I can knock it out of the park all year and get no bonus. With these factors in mind, I requested if we could get closer to 5% more base salary than the offer.

The response was "no we can't meet your salary requirements and we retract the offer entirely."

My response stated we are having issues around required salary and desired, I'd like to keep communication open and am still interested. Their response was "we'll consider it."

Did I shoot myself in the foot? I was only hoping to pick up 2% to cover the difference in benefits, but I feel this might have soured them.
The risk that an offer gets pulled gets downplayed in this thread, but it can and does happen. That being said, the reason the offer was retracted probably has nothing to do with your negotiations. It's much more likely the company in question simply reconsidered their decision to hire anyone. This happens all the time for a myriad of reasons, including missed sales targets, company-wide reorganizations, and economic downturns. Don't let it get to you.

Saltpowered
Apr 12, 2010

Chief Executive Officer
Awful Industries, LLC

Pryor on Fire posted:

I routinely cross out sections of the contract that I think are obscene and put my initials next to them before signing and sending it back, this is all that is needed to indicate you don't agree to some provision and nullify it. I've done this with lots of employment contracts, some leases, and even a mortgage document. Only once has somebody noticed this and got kind of angry about it. It has however saved my rear end multiple times from language this is so stupid it is borderline slavery or theft.

You could argue that it's kind of shady and unethical to do since people aren't agreeing to what they thought they were, but since we live in a corporate plutocracy where institutions are increasingly abusing consumers, employees, and any individual they can with horrible clauses that are illegal in much of the rest of the world I don't feel bad about it all. gently caress them.

Same. I do this with pretty much any contract I read from corporate to the doctors office. Anything I sign is marked up. Only occasionally will someone say something about it (Sorry, you must agree to the standard agreement) and I don't know anyone who has gotten pissed about it.

Skier
Apr 24, 2003

Fuck yeah.
Fan of Britches
I was light on negotiating the increase: "While I am glad we are close on compensation, I am looking for closer to $xxx for base salary with bonus on top of that." Ended with "Can we go from (offer base salary) base to (offer base salary +5%)?"

Xandu
Feb 19, 2006


It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Skier posted:

I was light on negotiating the increase: "While I am glad we are close on compensation, I am looking for closer to $xxx for base salary with bonus on top of that." Ended with "Can we go from (offer base salary) base to (offer base salary +5%)?"

Yeah that seems very reasonable and I don't think you did anything wrong. Weird that they pulled the offer, I'd recommend calling them and seeing what's up.

Pryor on Fire
May 14, 2013

they don't know all alien abduction experiences can be explained by people thinking saving private ryan was a documentary

Skier posted:

I was light on negotiating the increase: "While I am glad we are close on compensation, I am looking for closer to $xxx for base salary with bonus on top of that." Ended with "Can we go from (offer base salary) base to (offer base salary +5%)?"

A lot of companies put up these weird artificial barriers to negotiating, sounds like you ran into one of them. You should have also argued why you're a great fit for the position and how excited you are about working there in the email, but even if you didn't I think you're fine here.

A similar example I helped a friend go through recently is a company that sends out a paper offer letter in a fedex box, along with a company T shirt and some other goodies to give you the impression that you're already on board or something. Getting this box in the mail is the first time any numbers around salary come up, and it generally happens a month or two after a few rounds of interviews. There's a lot of delay because every offer has to get approved by your bosses boss and their boss and so on up the line and required CEO approval. The HR people and intereviewers make a lot of hubbub made about this since it's a big name company (Yahoo) with a celebrity CEO (Marissa Mayer) and you're supposed to feel all special that the CEO HERSELF! signed off on making you an offer.

Said friend got the box and the salary was about 10% lower than he was expecting, and the equity was kind of a joke and needed to be increased by an order of magnitude for him to consider it. When he submitted a counter offer the HR person seemed really taken aback, and explained that it had to go back through the approval process and would take another month or two. He said he was fine with that and waited another five weeks before he got another offer in the mail with better salary and equity, but apparently it is incredibly rare for people to attempt to negotiate at all with all that crap they put in place. The HR lady said it was the first time she'd ever had to deal with a counter offer in a year of working there.

He took the job and ended up quitting within about six months since the entire company seemed to be a clusterfuck of incompetence, mismanagement, old tech, and lazy people. It's kind of a big warning flag when companies put up all these artificial hurdles to hiring/negotiating, and usually indicative of bigger institutional dysfunction, so don't feel too bad about not getting that job.

MickeyFinn
May 8, 2007
Biggie Smalls and Junior Mafia some mark ass bitches

Skier posted:

I could use advice on negotiating an offer I've received. I asked for a salary and the written offer meets it by tacking on an almost $10,000 possible bonus to base salary. Benefits are more expensive and covers less than what my current position offers. My current position also has a bonus but with almost three years with the company, bonus is this nebulous thing where I can knock it out of the park all year and get no bonus. With these factors in mind, I requested if we could get closer to 5% more base salary than the offer.

The response was "no we can't meet your salary requirements and we retract the offer entirely."

My response stated we are having issues around required salary and desired, I'd like to keep communication open and am still interested. Their response was "we'll consider it."

Did I shoot myself in the foot? I was only hoping to pick up 2% to cover the difference in benefits, but I feel this might have soured them.

Bonus money that doesn't have clear objectives and payouts seems like a great way for a company to promise you something and never have to give it to you. Sure, if they never pay out people will move on to places that will pay better, but it will take years for them to find out!

Skier
Apr 24, 2003

Fuck yeah.
Fan of Britches
I've actually worked for this person before so the response was unexpected. I've got the skills needed for the position and am a good cultural fit: I've worked with almost the entire team before, too. Both the person making the offer and me were very excited so to go from everyone being happy and excited to a complete stop feels out of character.

I have requested a face-to-face to clear this up, but now to wait through the weekend for a response.

Dwight Eisenhower
Jan 24, 2006

Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.

Skier posted:

I've actually worked for this person before so the response was unexpected. I've got the skills needed for the position and am a good cultural fit: I've worked with almost the entire team before, too. Both the person making the offer and me were very excited so to go from everyone being happy and excited to a complete stop feels out of character.

I have requested a face-to-face to clear this up, but now to wait through the weekend for a response.

Pulling an offer over an attempt to negotiate is a significant red flag.

I think in general the regular posters in this thread downplay the risk of a pulled offer not because it will never happen, but because a company that pulls offers from people who attempt to negotiate is signalling a specific corporate culture. My own opinion is if an offer is pulled over an attempt to negotiate, you just dodged a bullet.

There is tension and correcting force to be mindful of, with the other rule we've reiterated time and again: know when you've won. If newguys had given you an objectively better offer (it sounds like they didn't), leaning on it risks that they pull it from you. Also, given the apparent similarity in the offer and your present compensation, you might be at or around the top end of the market rate for what you do.

Skier
Apr 24, 2003

Fuck yeah.
Fan of Britches
My other data point is an old coworker is making more base salary than what my pulled offer specified, and he isn't a senior or lead and the pulled offer is for a lead spot. That tells me he's either getting significantly overpaid at his company, which I find doubtful, or this lead spot is trying to underpay me.

Thankfully I've got some other openings to investigate that are probably better for career growth.

Once I get an offer or two from those I'll find out if I had won on the pulled offer and shot myself in the foot or if I dodge a bullet. :v:

Dwight Eisenhower
Jan 24, 2006

Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.

Skier posted:

My other data point is an old coworker is making more base salary than what my pulled offer specified, and he isn't a senior or lead and the pulled offer is for a lead spot. That tells me he's either getting significantly overpaid at his company, which I find doubtful, or this lead spot is trying to underpay me.

Thankfully I've got some other openings to investigate that are probably better for career growth.

Once I get an offer or two from those I'll find out if I had won on the pulled offer and shot myself in the foot or if I dodge a bullet. :v:

Healthy perspective; particularly when you only have the two data points (your current work and one offer).

Sounds like you were getting jobbed. Good luck and please check back in after you get some more info. A lot of the value of this thread is people coming in to report with the results of the aggressive negotiating techniques we suggest.

Easychair Bootson
May 7, 2004

Where's the last guy?
Ultimo hombre.
Last man standing.
Must've been one.
I've been reading this thread for some general advice, as I'm hoping/expecting to get an offer soon. I wanted to share an interview experience from ~8 years ago that has stuck in my head in hopes that it'll help somebody else.

I was interviewing with a software company in a different city, and one of the higher ups asked my salary expectation for the position. I gave a number that was somewhat optimistic but probably close to the top end of their range. Without batting an eye the guy said, "Are you worth it?"

I thought it was a great question from the interviewer's perspective. I stammered with my response. What I should have said was something to the effect of, "Absolutely, if not more. With my <list of assets> I will <add value in these ways>."

I know I'm not the only one to think of a better response to an interview question after the interview, but I thought the question itself was worth sharing and thinking about for those talking salary. Confidence is key.

Boy Wunder
Dec 2, 2000

An acquaintance of mine that I met through work (we're both software developers) has been pestering me for awhile to apply with his company and in the last little bit I've been quite bored with my current job, so I did. I interviewed with them two weeks ago and I thought it didn't go very well; the interviewer was 10 minutes late despite the fact that I had left my other job early to interview and he forgot to bring my resume. Whatever, I didn't think much of it and wasn't desperate. Yesterday, though, he emailed me back, telling me it was somewhat urgent, and that he had an open spot on a project and wanted me for it. I spoke to him this morning and the position sounded pretty interesting.

This afternoon, I received an offer and it is a massive lowball. I have two years of experience in my profession so while I don't expect to make top dollar I feel I am pretty well removed from my days as a fresh faced university graduate, and the offer I received is on the very low end of what one would expect to make for their first job out of school. For me to leave my current job I would need, at a minimum, $25k more in base salary per year than what was offered.

I've already decided to decline the offer without even countering but I wanted to see what the thread thinks of this. I can understand trying to lowball a little bit to see if someone who sucks at negotiation would take it in order to keep costs down but their ultra lowball makes me feel like it's less about the person and more about who they can find who will work for peanuts. While my acquaintance probably vouched for my skills they also haven't given me any kind of technical interview to see if I actually know what I'm talking about, which is another red flag in the software world.

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS




Yeah I mean, a lot of the companies complaining about "there's a skills gap, not enough people with the right skills" they really mean "for a low enough price we can/are willing to pay".

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Skier
Apr 24, 2003

Fuck yeah.
Fan of Britches

Dwight Eisenhower posted:

Healthy perspective; particularly when you only have the two data points (your current work and one offer).

Sounds like you were getting jobbed. Good luck and please check back in after you get some more info. A lot of the value of this thread is people coming in to report with the results of the aggressive negotiating techniques we suggest.

While I do not have offers in hand, I've picked up a few more compensation data points. For base salary, the pulled offer was middle of the road. Having it pulled for wanting base to come up to what another company is looking to pay makes me lean towards the dodging a bullet scenario. More updates as offers come in.

  • Locked thread