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Nope, Stross is good, and the nerdiness is self-aware and tongue in cheek. A guy can only spend so much time talking about wearing black jeans with a black tech-logo polo on a spy mission before you're bound to see the joke.
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Oct 25, 2014 16:12
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Cardiovorax posted:"Hate" is saying a bit much. His style just doesn't do anything for me. They're certainly not much nerdier than most of the stuff in this thread. Certainly more self-indulgent, though. I don't know if there's a proper term for that kind of writing, but it sets me on guard in the same way that steampunk or zombie stories do. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think Stross or Scalzi themselves write stories that fall within that, they more play with or partially subvert it, but it can't help but rub me the wrong way.
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Oct 25, 2014 19:16
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Azathoth posted:The issue with Stross (Scalzi too for that matter) isn't the writing itself, it's the association with a particularly annoying strain of nerd culture that writes endless wish fulfillment stories about the smug and arrogant nerd, who saves the day and gets the girl because of some particular aspect of his nerdiness. The love life of the protoganist of laundry files is absolutely not the stuff of any sane wish. That loving violin.
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Oct 25, 2014 22:49
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Azathoth posted:I don't know if there's a proper term for that kind of writing, but it sets me on guard in the same way that steampunk or zombie stories do.
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Oct 25, 2014 22:52
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Grimwall posted:The love life of the protoganist of laundry files is absolutely not the stuff of any sane wish. That loving violin. The rest of his life really kind of sucks too. Forget about having any kind of family, oh and by the way you can spend your best years knowing with complete certainty that you will experience the apocalypse within your lifetime - and you've got a lot of horrors to see even before that happens. Never mind the nasty thing ol' HP saw in the woodshed...
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Oct 25, 2014 22:56
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Spider-Man's got a pretty lovely life too, but it's hard not to argue that he's a teen power fantasy at his core.
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Oct 25, 2014 23:44
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Hey sci-fi/fantasy discussing goons. I'm coming off a three year university stint where I've read a million non-fiction books and haven't had time to read for pleasure/leisure at all, I'm looking for a recommendation for either fantasy or sci-fi to read, and I was hoping some of you geniuses might be able to help. I've read most of the 'classics' I think. Herbert, Asimov, Tolkien, etc. and liked them for various reasons. Especially Dune and LOTR, but I really liked the Empire series too. Of more modern stuff (well, sorta) I absolutely loving loved the Hyperion Cantos, all of Gene Wolfes Sun series (New, Long, Short, etc) and perhaps most of all, Malazan Book of the Fallen, although I would be hard pressed to say which of those three I enjoyed the most. I've read, and liked, most of Gene Wolfes books, with 'There Are Doors', being the exception, felt too incoherent to me. I value complexity of story and narrative alot, but it's not a must or anything (I recently burned through all of the Dresden Files in a couple of months, and while I enjoyed them I found it sorta 'easy listening'). Other stuff I've read that I liked, but wasn't completely blown away by like the ones mentioned above; William Gibsons stuff, Dark Tower, Robin Hobbs Farseer trilogy, Song of fire and ice (I think it's really good, but as good as Malazan, or Wolfes Sun series), other Dan Simmon books (like Drood and The Terror) were good, but didn't compare to Hyperion. I also like old timey horror/thriller stuff (Lovecraft, Poe) and I've read everything Kafka wrote and enjoyed it immensely. If I could, I'd read Malazan forever and ever, and I'm hoping to find something in that vein, but it's probably pretty difficult? I heard Patrick Rothfuss' books might be good? I started on the wheel of time and long while ago, but for some reason it just turned me off, but I guess I could give it another shot? e: holy poo poo, perhaps I took the 'include lots of details' part of the OP a little too seriously, apologies for the long post
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Oct 26, 2014 00:30
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Meiville. Start with Perdidio Street Station.
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Oct 26, 2014 00:44
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Revelation 2-13 posted:e: holy poo poo, perhaps I took the 'include lots of details' part of the OP a little too seriously, apologies for the long post
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Oct 26, 2014 00:52
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ConfusedUs posted:Meiville. Start with Perdidio Street Station. Read this, then read Evenson's Windeye. Or maybe the other way around.
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Oct 26, 2014 00:53
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Darth Walrus posted:Spider-Man's got a pretty lovely life too, but it's hard not to argue that he's a teen power fantasy at his core. Not to mention that that both the secret world and the eventual power ups he gets are thoroughly the stuff of nightmares. And there are weak books in the series, but the climax of The Rhesus Chart was amazing and no one will convince me otherwise.
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Oct 26, 2014 02:17
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Mars4523 posted:Not to mention that that both the secret world and the eventual power ups he gets are thoroughly the stuff of nightmares.
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Oct 26, 2014 02:20
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The Laundry Files main issue for me was I can kinda buy that Dresden can make a fireball with magic or whatever, but action and problems are resolved, at least in the book I read, by the main character 'doing maths' and thats it. Either he runs an app on his phone which somehow 'works' or he does a complicated bit of geometry and that also works. I guess its silly cause both are just as unrealistic but something about the idea that 'doing sums' can summon demons and poo poo just comes off as inherently dumb to me. Plus some of that stuff was really difficult to follow, with Stross name dropping loads of real and fictional math theorems.
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Oct 26, 2014 02:32
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The math would be more tolerable if he ever did anything interesting with it. "I can turn NP-complete problems into P-complete problems!" That's nice, but also completely boring to anyone who isn't deeply interested in theoretical computer science.
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Oct 26, 2014 02:36
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Cardiovorax posted:The math would be more tolerable if he ever did anything interesting with it. "I can turn NP-complete problems into P-complete problems!" That's nice, but also completely boring to anyone who isn't deeply interested in theoretical computer science. 99% of the people reading the book have at least a passing interest in theoretical computer science.
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Oct 26, 2014 02:52
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I've got a degree in the stuff and he still didn't manage to make me excited for the story.
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Oct 26, 2014 02:53
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Yeah I know what each individual aspect of these things he brings up means, its just that its entirely uninteresting. Its the equivalent of a character going "I made 2+2 equal 8!" Like OK that doesn't mean anything.
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Oct 26, 2014 02:58
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The wish fulfillment that people react to in Dresden isn't the wish for a great happy life full of adoring women and success. It's the construct of a world in which IT nerds are actually heroes who suffer under the tyranny of HR bureaucrats who refuse to understand their true gifts, bravely holding the world together against a class of problems the normals just don't understand.
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Oct 26, 2014 03:03
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Revelation 2-13 posted:Hey sci-fi/fantasy discussing goons. I'm coming off a three year university stint where I've read a million non-fiction books and haven't had time to read for pleasure/leisure at all, I'm looking for a recommendation for either fantasy or sci-fi to read, and I was hoping some of you geniuses might be able to help. Brandon Sanderson's The Way of Kings is the beginning of an epic fantasy series that you might enjoy since you enjoyed the Malazan series, and the kindle ebook version is still free http://www.amazon.com/Way-Kings-Stormlight-Archive-Book-ebook/dp/B003P2WO5E There is a one chapter goon-described "tutorial" prologue that's unlike the rest of the novel and puts some people off, so if it does just try to read on and see if it hooks you then. Otherwise, maybe Lies of Locke Lamora, a fantasy heist novel which has sequels but wraps up its plot nicely without any major cliffhangers. Have you read Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep, & A Deepness in the Sky? Obligatory mentions of Joe Abercrombie's First Law Trilogy (since you liked SOIAF) + stand-alones , or Ian Bank's Culture novels.
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Oct 26, 2014 03:21
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Revelation 2-13 posted:
For fantasy you should check out R Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing and Aspect Emperor series. It's hugely influenced by both Tolkein and Herbert and it's very strong for complexity of story and narrative, one of the most rewarding series for rereads imo. For scifi check out Ian McDonald's River of Gods. I just finished it last week and it reminded me a lot of the first two Hyperion books with the way it gets deep into various characters diverse stories and arcs while also bringing them all together satisfyingly into the bigger picture of the world going to hell all around them. I can't really give a fair assessment of Rothfuss, as his first book was extremely hyped and going into it I probably had too high of expectations, which led to me being very underwhelmed and sorta passive-aggressively hating it. I haven't read his second one. savinhill fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Oct 26, 2014 |
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Oct 26, 2014 03:22
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Prince of Nothing is a very special flavour of depressing that doesn't appeal to everyone. Fair warning.
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Oct 26, 2014 03:26
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I'll toss in a recommendation for Felix Gilman's The Half-Made World. It has a unique world and strikes a good mix between page-turning action and layered meaning. It goes in interesting directions and doesn't beat you over the head with symbolism and allegory, while still managing to make some thought-provoking points. It's not Gene Wolfe, but it scratches a very similar itch.
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Oct 26, 2014 03:38
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Azathoth posted:I'll toss in a recommendation for Felix Gilman's The Half-Made World. It has a unique world and strikes a good mix between page-turning action and layered meaning. It goes in interesting directions and doesn't beat you over the head with symbolism and allegory, while still managing to make some thought-provoking points. It's not Gene Wolfe, but it scratches a very similar itch. Seconded, and the sequel is actually somewhat Wolfeish with its narrator and frame story. If it's weird narrators you're in to and don't mind left-leaning satire, Sensation by Nick Mamatas is excellent. And not part of a series.
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Oct 26, 2014 04:10
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PlushCow posted:Brandon Sanderson's The Way of Kings is the beginning of an epic fantasy series that you might enjoy since you enjoyed the Malazan series, and the kindle ebook version is still free http://www.amazon.com/Way-Kings-Stormlight-Archive-Book-ebook/dp/B003P2WO5E There is a one chapter goon-described "tutorial" prologue that's unlike the rest of the novel and puts some people off, so if it does just try to read on and see if it hooks you then. I picked it up on Kindle and during that chapter, all I could think of was Bleach and Naruto and Pokemon when they explain stuff for the TV audience. I kept stopping to laugh at it. Now that I'm past it, it's not bad at all.
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Oct 26, 2014 04:15
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Revelation 2-13 posted:I heard Patrick Rothfuss' books might be good? quote:For fantasy you should check out R Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing and Aspect Emperor series. It's hugely influenced by both Tolkein and Herbert and it's very strong for complexity of story and narrative, one of the most rewarding series for rereads imo. I just want to offer a counterpoint, since I have similar tastes based on your paragraph and strongly disliked both of these series. As a disclaimer, I think at least a part of my dislike came from being a female reader and both seemed clearly written for a male audience (and Bakker has even said as much re: his books). As such, the female characters are pretty abysmal and/or abysmally treated. This was a big turnoff for me and it might not be as much for a male reader unless you're sensitive to that kind of stuff. On R. Scott Bakker, I guess I would ask you how interested you are in a hero (antihero) who's so uberlogical he knows everything that's going to happen in advance because he has a near godlike ability to pinpoint probabilities with exactitude. He's SO logical that he gains the ability to do magic, basically. Also, he's a ginormous rear end in a top hat who ruins the lives of everyone around him, especially the women 'cause that's the way the world works. Also, how do you feel about a trilogy that moves towards a climactic battle and confrontation, only when you finally reach that battle it cuts away to the main character having a long philosophical debate with his dad? If that sounds interesting to you, you might as well give it a try. To be fair, I peaced out after the first trilogy, so there's a whole other half of the story I haven't read. I didn't really see any influences of Tolkien in there that I can remember, but it's possible I missed something since I disliked the books so much. There's definitely a lot of philosophy in these books, so if you are very interested in that, it might be worth a read. I didn't much like or agree with the author's philosophies, so I found it a fairly unpleasant read. On Patrick Rothfuss, it seemed to me like just a long series of anecdotes about a Mary Sue wish fulfillment character for nerdy white guys. I feel like there's probably a point to the story eventually, but by the end of the first book I couldn't tell what it was, except to be all "look how awesome this guy is! If you lived in this fantasy world, you would probably be this awesome too because he is much like you." I couldn't stomach it past the first book, but I know a lot of people who absolutely adore these books. I think it's probably a pretty good read if you actually like the protagonist, but I didn't like him at all, and the author seems to be reserving the actual point of why we're hearing this guy's life story for later so I didn't really feel compelled to stick with it for plot reasons. As for what I would recommend, I second the recommendations for China Mieville and would also throw in Jeff Vandermeer's Ambergris books. Catherynne Valente is another writer I really enjoy. Her prose and imagery are absolutely gorgeous and her writing has quite a bit of substance to it, while still remaining enjoyable fantasy. If you like really meaty stuff, you might also check out Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell, if you haven't read it. It's a book with a lot of footnotes, so you have to get used to that, but it's extremely well-written and one of my favorites.
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Oct 26, 2014 04:36
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Mars4523 posted:I love The Laundry Files, and I'd argue that the protagonist spends way too much of his time in a constant state of fear and/or barely holding on to things by the fingertips to be considered a wish fulfillment fantasy. Speak for yourself, I wish for severe PTSD and a relationship where both partners take turns consoling each other as they struggle to cope with what their jobs have made them do.
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Oct 26, 2014 04:42
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I just want to offer a counterpoint to the counterpoint: don't believe the passive aggressive goon hype, Revelation 2-13, Bakker's the poo poo, especially if Tolkien, Dune and Foundation were your favorites in your previous fantasy reading career.
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Oct 26, 2014 04:49
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Nah Bakker has strengths and weaknesses. There's a lot of cool poo poo in his writing, he's also really into  and rape. So it's worth considering whether you'll like it before diving in!
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Oct 26, 2014 05:41
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I just remembered the best part of heretics of dune: when teg gets so hungry after he goes apeshit and kills like forty people by kicking their spines out and stuff that he eats his entire weight in food and then some guy golf claps and gives him props for being such a loving glutton.
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Oct 26, 2014 05:47
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General Battuta posted:Nah Bakker has strengths and weaknesses. There's a lot of cool poo poo in his writing, he's also really into Mmm I sure do love me some rape, sounds like a great author! Bakker is a loving hack poo poo who writes garbage books, don't read Bakker. Do read Ian MacDonald though. Desolation Road is one of my favorite fantasy works ever. ShutteredIn fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Oct 26, 2014 |
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Oct 26, 2014 05:52
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General Battuta posted:Nah Bakker has strengths and weaknesses. There's a lot of cool poo poo in his writing, he's also really into I agree with this. Except with the clarification that the weaknesses aren't related to writing, but to Bakker's worth as a human being. His books may be the only pieces of writing I've read that have made me feel visceral revulsion. That's a pretty uncommon emotion. Books that evoke strong emotions (Intentionally? Unintentionally?) have value. Touch base and go on an adventure with your neglected feelings!
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Oct 26, 2014 08:59
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andrew smash posted:I just remembered the best part of heretics of dune: when teg gets so hungry after he goes apeshit and kills like forty people by kicking their spines out and stuff that he eats his entire weight in food and then some guy golf claps and gives him props for being such a loving glutton. Nah, the best bit is when he's sitting in the diner examining the deliberately distressed tablecloth and pondering the philosophy of interior design. It's even better than Odrade's ruminations on the choice of hardwoods among the middle classes.
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Oct 26, 2014 09:13
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So I just finished "The Stars My Destination", which is a book I should have read ages ago. I have to admit that, besides the first 30-40 pages, I had trouble staying into this book, which I didn't really expect because I usually eat up any sci-fi "classic" I read, including Bester's other classic novel The Demonlished Man. But this book was so dreary, dark, the main character and nearly everyone else so unlikable, and the world just kind of weird and disjointed and written/described like Gibson's Neuromancer, another book I felt was a slog at times. But then I got to the ending. And wow, what an ending. This loving book has one of the most killer endings I've ever read in science fiction. It pulls the whole drat thing together while at the same time elevating the scope to epic proportions. I feel silly with the level of surprise I felt at the ending revelations, as, in retrospect, the books title completely gives it away. So, yeah, while I still think the middle of this book is a tiny bit of a slog, man does it make up for it by the time you are done. If you haven't made time for this or the other in Bester's Sci Fi duology you should give them a read soon.
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Oct 26, 2014 12:31
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Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi posted:Just finished City of Stairs and found it marvelous. I know he's working on a sequel now - not sure where the story could go since it felt pretty definitively wrapped up, but I'll have no qualms with returning to that world again. I just finished this as well and absolutely loved it. I especially liked how the story was self-contained. When I read this and another similar post saying that it felt too wrapped up for a sequel then I have to say I very much disagree. By itself then the world is so rich and detailed that I see no problem with a sequel happening, with either the same main characters or new characters for that matter. Just because a plot is neatly done and doesn't end in cliffhanger bullshit like so many series books do today then it doesn't mean it's ill-suited for a sequel. Many more authors should look to City of Stairs on how to make a satisfying reading experience but still have ample room to continue the series. Also, (vague ending discussion) the author very intently sets up a new challenge for the main characters by the end of the book, with each of them getting their own "quest", if you will. That is a very blatant sequel setup. This could either be continued directly in the next book, or we could have new main characters that interact with the old ones.
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Oct 26, 2014 14:36
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ShutteredIn posted:Mmm I sure do love me some rape, sounds like a great author! Bakker is a loving hack poo poo who writes garbage books, don't read Bakker. Oh, we are still discussing Bakker? For a hack poo poo he sure manages to get people upset with his books. On Ian Macdonald, even though Desolation Road is good, his other books are much better. He is better at writing cyberpunk than Gaiman ever was.
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Oct 26, 2014 15:40
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Cardiac posted:On Ian Macdonald, even though Desolation Road is good, his other books are much better. You can't edit this out now.
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Oct 26, 2014 16:00
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I find Gaiman's space opera werewolf romance to be very overrated.
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Oct 26, 2014 17:32
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M. John Harrison's Viriconium and Light are both way up your alley, especially given your fondness for Wolfean complexity. Avram Davidson's The Phoenix and the Mirror is the book I like to imagine Gene Wolfe read to realize what a genre novel could actually do.
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Oct 26, 2014 20:49
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Megazver posted:I find Gaiman's space opera werewolf romance to be very overrated. ....The gently caress?
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Oct 26, 2014 21:02
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Siminu posted:I agree with this. Except with the clarification that the weaknesses aren't related to writing, but to Bakker's worth as a human being. The first Bakker book I was pointed at was so loving terrible and boring I put it down inside the first 60 pages. It is pretty much the only book I haven't finished out of stubbornness. I mean, I read the entirety of the Black Company. There is just nothing worth giving a gently caress about in that book.
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Oct 26, 2014 21:05
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