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Dik Hz posted:2012 BMW 328i Oh dear god.
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Oct 25, 2014 22:12
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Cultural Imperial posted:Oh dear god. Not even a 335i 
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Oct 25, 2014 22:30
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swenblack posted:I like the chart. Excellent job bringing facts and data to the thread. However, I think you need to consider inflation and the fact that a new 2010 Accord is a more valuable product (longer lasting, more features, safer) than a new 1975 Accord. The chart is inflation adjusted and the increasing cost of cars was precisely the point of my original post. Whether there is greater value or not, cars are getting more expensive.
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Oct 25, 2014 22:50
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MickeyFinn posted:The chart is inflation adjusted and the increasing cost of cars was precisely the point of my original post. Whether there is greater value or not, cars are getting more expensive.
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Oct 26, 2014 01:02
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MickeyFinn posted:The chart is inflation adjusted and the increasing cost of cars was precisely the point of my original post. Whether there is greater value or not, cars are getting more expensive. If the chart is inflation adjusted, I'm curious about whose inflation numbers they are using. From 1975 to 2010, inflation is about 4x. Looking at a 1975 Accord, the price is listed as 4k. Was an Accord really only $1,000 in 1975. I really doubt that. The average transaction price on a car in 1975 was almost $5k http://www.autonews.com/article/19960626/ANA/606260830/1975-car-prices-brought-sticker-shock-then-rebates Calling bullshit on this being inflation adjusted. Inflation adjusting the article's 5k average ticket price, we'd be looking at 20k in 2010, which is certainly lower than the average price of a car sold then (I believe it was hovering around 30k)
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Oct 26, 2014 01:02
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Bloody Queef posted:Calling bullshit on this being inflation adjusted. Inflation adjusting the article's 5k average ticket price, we'd be looking at 20k in 2010, which is certainly lower than the average price of a car sold then (I believe it was hovering around 30k) Easy there tiger. I linked the wrong image (it is fixed now), the inflation numbers are from the BLS. Also, you can't use the average price of a car being sold during any time because it is a one sided distribution. Here it is again:  cowofwar posted:I don't think a civic 20 years ago is comparable to civic of today. What was once an entry level car is now a mid tier car. The Honda fit is now the entry level car. Yeah, but that is kind of the point as well. People still think of a Honda Civic (or similar) as the cheap reliable cars they were 20-30 years ago, but they have been upgraded through the years to be a higher class and I daresay that is bound to cause some inflation in what people spend on cars. MickeyFinn fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Oct 26, 2014 |
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Oct 26, 2014 01:50
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MickeyFinn posted:Easy there tiger. I linked the wrong image (it is fixed now), the inflation numbers are from the BLS. Well that corrected graph does sort of debunk the whole "Cars are so much more expensive nowadays rabble rabble" Especially when you look at 1990 numbers. E: I wasn't calling bullshit on you, just the graph. I very rarely trust graphs because it's very easy to lie with them. Note all the people in the thread who thought the graph you linked was interesting and telling but not even realizing it wasn't the right graph.
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Oct 26, 2014 01:57
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Bloody Queef posted:Well that corrected graph does sort of debunk the whole "Cars are so much more expensive nowadays rabble rabble" Especially when you look at 1990 numbers. I look at that graph and see a price increase of roughly 1/3 over the period of 3 decades. That isn't a lot of money to you? This is the second most expensive purchase most people make. Edit: with wages stagnant (or falling) over the same period (after inflation) it just isn't shocking to me that people are taking out longer car loans. That is what started my desire to make that graph.
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Oct 26, 2014 02:00
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MickeyFinn posted:I look at that graph and see a price increase of roughly 1/3 over the period of 3 decades. That isn't a lot of money to you? This is the second most expensive purchase most people make. Edit: with wages stagnant (or falling) over the same period (after inflation) it just isn't shocking to me that people are taking out longer car loans. That is what started my desire to make that graph. What if the price increase is due to the change in the position of the Camry/Accord in the manufacturer's lineup, and not representative of the same level car over time? You would have to adjust for size creep in addition to inflation. e.g. a 1990s Camry is more like a 2009 Corolla so at some point you should switch over to using Corolla prices instead of Camry prices.
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Oct 26, 2014 02:31
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MickeyFinn posted:I look at that graph and see a price increase of roughly 1/3 over the period of 3 decades. That isn't a lot of money to you? This is the second most expensive purchase most people make. Edit: with wages stagnant (or falling) over the same period (after inflation) it just isn't shocking to me that people are taking out longer car loans. That is what started my desire to make that graph. Wages stagnant, and other costs increasing.
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Oct 26, 2014 02:35
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MickeyFinn posted:I look at that graph and see a price increase of roughly 1/3 over the period of 3 decades. That isn't a lot of money to you? This is the second most expensive purchase most people make. Edit: with wages stagnant (or falling) over the same period (after inflation) it just isn't shocking to me that people are taking out longer car loans. That is what started my desire to make that graph.
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Oct 26, 2014 03:30
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MickeyFinn posted:Easy there tiger. I linked the wrong image (it is fixed now), the inflation numbers are from the BLS. Also, you can't use the average price of a car being sold during any time because it is a one sided distribution. This is true. I bought a new Civic in '12 and no lie, had no idea until just now that the Fit was cheaper. I always assumed it was more expensive, and probably would have gotten the Fit had I known.
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Oct 26, 2014 05:21
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Duckman2008 posted:This is true. I bought a new Civic in '12 and no lie, had no idea until just now that the Fit was cheaper. I always assumed it was more expensive, and probably would have gotten the Fit had I known. It might actually have been more expensive, considering how bad the reviews for that year's Civic were; to the point that Honda rushed out a refresh for...2013 or 2014, I forget. But WAY faster than they normally would. You might have been getting a deal on that Civic.
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Oct 26, 2014 05:26
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Mantle posted:What if the price increase is due to the change in the position of the Camry/Accord in the manufacturer's lineup, and not representative of the same level car over time? You would have to adjust for size creep in addition to inflation. e.g. a 1990s Camry is more like a 2009 Corolla so at some point you should switch over to using Corolla prices instead of Camry prices. cowofwar brought up something similar. But I wonder if this is really the case. From a certain point of view, you are both correct, but if people still think of Accords and Camrys as the "cheap option" then switching to the new entry model doesn't make sense. Part of the appeal of doing the data collection like I did was that it used a known quantity over the whole period. I tried to include the F150, but I couldn't get what I thought to be good answers out of searching, so I had to leave it off. cowofwar posted:There's a term called car wallet or something that car manufacturers quantify. It's the average amount of money people have each month to spend on a car payment. Over the years that number has stayed the same or gone down and since the car companies don't want to lower prices to ensure that people can afford their cars, they instead subsidize longer financing periods in order to keep the average monthly cost of new car ownership within this window. I saw a similar stat for the food industry, I can't remember the provenance: If everyone eats 2000 Cal/day and the population expands at ~1%/year (those numbers are somewhat made up) then your business can only expand by that one percent a year. But since investors are looking for revenue growth of 4-5%/year, you have to get people to eat more every year and so someone invented lunchables - sorta food you might normally eat, packed full of extra calories and extra expensive.
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Oct 26, 2014 05:30
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VideoTapir posted:It might actually have been more expensive, considering how bad the reviews for that year's Civic were; to the point that Honda rushed out a refresh for...2013 or 2014, I forget. But WAY faster than they normally would. You might have been getting a deal on that Civic. Oh, also good to know. What did the bad reviews say? I used Edmunds when I got it, and i checked again and the review still is decent. Duckman2008 fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Oct 26, 2014 |
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Oct 26, 2014 11:17
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VideoTapir posted:As long as overpayment goes to principal, a longer loan might be okay...smart even. If your required payment is lower than your usual payment it gives you a little more breathing room if things go to hell. When my dad retired, my parents refinanced their mortgage so they could do exactly this. They only had 2-3 years left on their mortgage, they did a 15 year refinance but they're continuing to pay the same amount to put extra in principle. This way, if something unexpected comes up and things go south, they can pay the minimum to save money. Retiring was probably bad with money with them but my dad was being a big baby about working and just wanted it to end. He should have squeezed another year of work out. Considering the way I see them spending money, I have a funny feeling they've already started paying the minimum. Personally, I'm looking for a nice, cheap box I can rent to live out of so I don't have to deal with grown up things like money and mortgages. Cardboard is fine, but I'm willing to pay extra for corrugated. Double corrugated might be out of my price range, though.
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Oct 26, 2014 13:16
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Renegret posted:Personally, I'm looking for a nice, cheap box I can rent to live out of so I don't have to deal with grown up things like money and mortgages. Cardboard is fine, but I'm willing to pay extra for corrugated. Double corrugated might be out of my price range, though. Get a tarp over that box like a pup tent and put a pallet under it to get it off the ground and you've got year round living.
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Oct 26, 2014 16:08
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Renegret posted:When my dad retired, my parents refinanced their mortgage so they could do exactly this. They only had 2-3 years left on their mortgage, they did a 15 year refinance but they're continuing to pay the same amount to put extra in principle. This way, if something unexpected comes up and things go south, they can pay the minimum to save money. If they had a 30 year mortgage, those last couple of years are mostly composed of principle. They probably had to pay refi costs which makes this a very bad with money move. Some genius mortgage broker sold them on that. A much better move would have been a no fee HELOC so if they couldn't make a payment draw from that, if everything was kosher not use it. Be prepared for having your parents move in your basement or attic!
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Oct 26, 2014 16:50
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Duckman2008 posted:Oh, also good to know. What did the bad reviews say? I used Edmunds when I got it, and i checked again and the review still is decent. It was Consumer Reports (usually the Civic's biggest fan) who panned it. Everyone else was more along the lines of "good but not the best." It's the Civic, it's supposed to be the best. The CR review is what lit the fire under Honda's rear end, because your typical non-ricer Civic buyer is the sort who just buys what CR tells them to buy. http://jalopnik.com/5826679/how-the-honda-civic-went-from-first-to-worst
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Oct 26, 2014 18:10
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Also that price chart doesn't take into account things like 0 or .9% financing. Effectively this the car company dropping the price of the car without dropping the price. Did these exist in the 70's?
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Oct 26, 2014 19:43
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mysteryberto posted:Also that price chart doesn't take into account things like 0 or .9% financing. Effectively this the car company dropping the price of the car without dropping the price. Actually, I've seen some claims that 0% financing and its ilk is built in to the price of the car, suggesting that it raises prices. While I haven't checked, I seriously doubt Honda would let you borrow from them at <1% when 10 year treasuries were returning 10%+.
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Oct 26, 2014 20:20
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VideoTapir posted:It was Consumer Reports (usually the Civic's biggest fan) who panned it. Everyone else was more along the lines of "good but not the best." It's the Civic, it's supposed to be the best. The CR review is what lit the fire under Honda's rear end, because your typical non-ricer Civic buyer is the sort who just buys what CR tells them to buy. So does that make it a better deal due to low resale value?
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Oct 26, 2014 23:13
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Shipon posted:So does that make it a better deal due to low resale value? It will at one point be one of the least sought-after Civics, so probably a little bit, if you're comparing to other Civics.
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Oct 27, 2014 01:39
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I don't know what the Civics are like now, but I bought my manual 2000 DX hatchback new in 2001 for 15.5k CDN and sold it 2 years ago with 120,000 km and no major repairs on it for 3.5k. I guess getting 20% of my vehicle's value back after 10 years is good with money. Not sure if the ecstatic Korean kid who bought it was. He really really wanted a Civic DX for some reason.
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Oct 27, 2014 02:28
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http://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/2ke2kz/shifting_debt_around_were_having_a_baby/?sort=confidence $30,000 personal loan, check. $100,000 student loan, check. Spends $1000/mo on food. Check. No health insurance. Baby on the way.
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Oct 27, 2014 02:32
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Saros posted:http://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/2ke2kz/shifting_debt_around_were_having_a_baby/?sort=confidence Time-travelling Zaurg?
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Oct 27, 2014 04:13
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Jesus. Motherfucking. Christ. PS WHAT FRIEND LOANS YOU THAT KIND OF MONEY????
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Oct 27, 2014 06:10
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He never said why he had that much of a loan, just that is was debt. I wasthinking wedding expenses since his wife is also eating 1k a month of organic food, but his post history says he was married in front of a judge. Wow, and he's about to go down to a 1 income family. He also claims to have a finance degree. His post history is full of of a mixture of sadness and comedy gold though. Just 12 days ago he said he was 600 days alcohol free, but he was spending 1k a month on booze, but he also says he can manage his finances now.
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Oct 27, 2014 10:37
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His bright idea for how to get out of the hole was to deliberately take on 6k of credit card debt 
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Oct 27, 2014 11:06
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Weatherman posted:Time-travelling Zaurg? Incredibly disappointing lack of wonderhangers and pool tables The more I look at that guy the more appalled I am by his insane thinking.
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Oct 27, 2014 12:23
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MickeyFinn posted:Actually, I've seen some claims that 0% financing and its ilk is built in to the price of the car, suggesting that it raises prices. While I haven't checked, I seriously doubt Honda would let you borrow from them at <1% when 10 year treasuries were returning 10%+. They don't, they charge the dealer which is why most deals are $x amount back or 0% financing. It's called "dealer reserve" when the dealer fronts a flat fee for the finance charge.
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Oct 27, 2014 14:00
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TLG James posted:He never said why he had that much of a loan, just that is was debt. I wasthinking wedding expenses since his wife is also eating 1k a month of organic food, but his post history says he was married in front of a judge. He's being super vague on what that 1k in food is on. I'm betting a big chunk of it is the alcohol problem he's hiding
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Oct 27, 2014 14:29
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Not a Children posted:He's being super vague on what that 1k in food is on. I'm betting a big chunk of it is the alcohol problem he's hiding Maybe he's off the booze but on the junk?
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Oct 27, 2014 14:40
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MAKE NO BABBYS posted:Jesus. Motherfucking. Christ. If this guy were to declare bankruptcy, what would happen to the personal loan? Would the friend just be completely out of luck?
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Oct 27, 2014 14:55
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I think both he and the friend would be in big trouble for having such a large personal loan done in what's a pretty shady manner, without it being reported to the credit bureaus or the IRS.
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Oct 27, 2014 15:16
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Saros posted:http://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/2ke2kz/shifting_debt_around_were_having_a_baby/?sort=confidence Why the hell is "I'm $200,000 in debt" in these posts always followed soon after by "I'd like to buy a home soon". Dude, that's not a priority at the moment.
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Oct 27, 2014 15:19
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Dr. Eldarion posted:Why the hell is "I'm $200,000 in debt" in these posts always followed soon after by "I'd like to buy a home soon". Dude, that's not a priority at the moment. It actually follows quite naturally, when you think about how they ended up 200k in debt.
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Oct 27, 2014 15:23
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Dr. Eldarion posted:Why the hell is "I'm $200,000 in debt" in these posts always followed soon after by "I'd like to buy a home soon". Dude, that's not a priority at the moment. Yep. Why pay Prime + whatever% on a student loan, when I can combine it with a mortgage and compound the the poo poo out of my interest costs? 
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Oct 27, 2014 15:29
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melon cat posted:I still remember talking to undergrad students back in University about student loans. They all had a very cavalier, stupidly-simplistic outlook on it. They always said, "I'm not worried about my student loan. Student debt is good debt, and I can always roll it into my mortgage." That's something I would do though for a different reason. Because mortgage debt is can be discharged in bankruptcy while educational debt can not. If the rates are comparable, I would prefer to take on mortgage debt. If I get into financial difficulties, I would be free and clear in 7 years if I declare bankruptcy. Granted your students aren't thinking this far ahead but a broken clock will always be right twice a day.
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Oct 27, 2014 15:38
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melon cat posted:I still remember talking to undergrad students back in University about student loans. They all had a very cavalier, stupidly-simplistic outlook on it. They always said, "I'm not worried about my student loan. Student debt is good debt, and I can always roll it into my mortgage." Interestingly, in the UK the student loan is probably the best loan you can possibly get. Interest rate is the base rate + 1%, capped at RPI (inflation), so currently 1.5%. Repayments are set at 9% of your income above £16,910. Easy.
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Oct 27, 2014 15:41
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