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greententacle posted:Well I haven't seen any anti-vaxxers latching onto Children of Earth when the government was going to use 'vaccines' as the cover for kids being kidnapped and handed over to junkie aliens, so I guess we can hope this one gets overlooked and not used as ammunition by the wrong people. Or maybe in the finale the Doctor will say he was wrong, because it turns out that Missy, like the Master, is a Time Lord with mental illness that has gone off her meds. It's nothing to do with anti-vaxers or any organised campaign, the problem is that it perpetuates the harmful and widely-held misapprehension that mental illness isn't real.
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Oct 26, 2014 11:07
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In a way, I'm thankful for this episode. I've been trying so hard to watch this season critically, to be able to recognize bad episodes when I see them and to be able to say things about them. And that's been very hard this season because the worst we've really had is Deep Breath not hitting its stride until halfway through and Kill the Moon's shaky, controversial ideas. But finally, I can recognize that this was a Bad Episode, and I can articulate reasons why! The interesting opening pitch of the episode fell apart with the shittiest explanation ever! The plot was overly saccharine, as well as carrying a really troubling anti-medication message! Most of the children were bad actors, with the main one taking the loving cake! The parts of the plot that weren't either saccharine or stupid (and let's be fair, that was most of the episode) were just really boring! The end scene was almost offensive in its attempts to give a happy ending that was in absolutely no way asked for! The only good part that I will grant, is that this was probably Danny Pink's strongest episode. It's far too understated to be the savior of a bad story, and it's hindered a bit by mostly only being in a position to play off the (again, pretty crap) child actors. But I liked him slowly getting actual respect from the students, and I really like that, in a show that can get really caught up in its own grandiosity, we had someone that could just be level-headed, small-focused, and unwilling to get seduced by the whole Doctor Who thing. It's not enough to save the episode, but it's good enough that I kind of wish it was in another one just so it wouldn't be stuck in this one.
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Oct 26, 2014 11:23
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Noxville posted:That was dumb. But not fun-dumb, just boring-dumb. the only review this episode needs.
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Oct 26, 2014 11:24
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At least the idea that taking pills for mental health problems is a bad things explains the way Danny and Clara interact with each other.
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Oct 26, 2014 11:30
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docbeard posted:
Pretty sure it was deliberate on the part of the writer; William Blake, of 'the Tyger' which the episode is named after, is the poster boy for romantic madness. He literally saw visions, wrote poems about them, and wiki says he is #38 in a poll of greatest ever Britons. So he has his fans, and some will be writers. You don't write an episode about him unless you are a fan, and you are not a fan unless you like that theme. And if you start from Blakean mythology, say 'ok, the Doctor is some kind of minor angel of Orc', it all makes sense. There are Thrones and Powers beyond, and they can make a Green and Pleasant Land out of even Jerusalem... Just not as a sci-fi genre show.
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Oct 26, 2014 11:34
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Eiba posted:All of humanity is about to die and the Doctor has no way of stopping it. (Spoilers- no one's in danger, the trees are going to save everyone.) Clara, Danny, the kids, and the Doctor are all far away from the TARDIS. Noxville posted:It's nothing to do with anti-vaxers or any organised campaign, the problem is that it perpetuates the harmful and widely-held misapprehension that mental illness isn't real.
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Oct 26, 2014 11:50
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When I get stressed I forget my anger management. Haha, Clara would rather put the kids down than deal with their grief. Clara Oswald: Teacher of the Year
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Oct 26, 2014 11:54
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I'm not so sure about that, the girl is genuinely hearing voices so it seems like her illness is real, even if it has a weird cause. But that's not an illness given that the voices are real, that's being more in touch with the world than everyone else. Hearing voices makes you special.
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Oct 26, 2014 11:58
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When the girl that hears voices tells you that a forest is going to show up all over Earth, and then a forest actually appears all over Earth, it's probably safe to assume that she's not just suffering from mental illness.
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Oct 26, 2014 12:31
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I know how you feel. Charlie and the chocolate factory also had me apoplectic too. Wtf?
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Oct 26, 2014 12:43
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Myrddin_Emrys posted:I know how you feel. Charlie and the chocolate factory also had me apoplectic too. You don't go telling impressionable children "don't take your meds, the voices make you special" on national television  .
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Oct 26, 2014 12:55
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Well that was a wet fart of an episode and probably the weakest of the season. The sad thing is that "Earth has a self-aware gaiafield that is probably the explanation for cultural beliefs surrounding faeries etc and that protects the planet in times of need unbeknownst to us" could have worked, and worked very well, but the resulting episode was just so ham-handed and crap that it sucked every last bit of potential out of the concept.
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Oct 26, 2014 13:21
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Lmao at Clara just being like, let the kids die. Also talking about a child's mental health in front of other students is illegal.
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Oct 26, 2014 13:22
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Glenn_Beckett posted:Lmao at Clara just being like, let the kids die. Also talking about a child's mental health in front of other students is illegal. Lots of Yewtree overtones this season.
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Oct 26, 2014 13:24
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You don't go telling impressionable children "don't take your meds, the voices make you special" on national television I agree with all the Doctors messages!
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Oct 26, 2014 13:25
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You don't go telling impressionable children "don't take your meds, the voices make you special" on national television It's a really common trope in fiction, and it's never good to see. This was by no means the worst incarnation of it, although unlike most it did seem like this girl was actually exhibiting symptoms that'd be good reasons to medicate. It's an issue that's been irking me a bit more than usual recently, because I've realized that it's sort of shooting in the same direction as a genuine point, but it's never actually at the same target. When suffering from depression and such, getting to the point where you don't have to take the pills anymore is a huge step; it's definitely not one you can take lightly, and it takes a lot to get to that point, but it's a big moment when it works. It's never that way when it turns up in fiction, though, it's always 'you never needed these, stop taking them right now'. This episode seemed to want to justify it by magically giving her sister back,but that's insulting for a whole host of other, different reasons while not necessarily fixing this one.
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Oct 26, 2014 13:33
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I was also really alarmed by the way mental illness was portrayed in this episode, to the point that it's probably the only episode of the New Series I would actively say should not have been broadcast as is. Saying that there was evidence Maeve was right is missing the point; many schizophrenics would say there was evidence their beliefs were right. Getting a clever Blake reference into your script is not a good enough reason for having a genuinely dangerous message in your show. I'm considering complaining to the BBC about it, unless the thread can persuade me this is an overreaction.
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Oct 26, 2014 13:34
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Looking back at the episode, it was poo poo. Like, what the gently caress? Scientifically retarded to the point where "kill the moon" was less stupid, insultingly dangerous with the topic of mental health, especially if a little kid watches it, and utterly pointlessly. So far, those were the only two episodes that I'd never watch again. The rest have been decent to really good, but those two... just never let the writers near the show again.
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Oct 26, 2014 13:49
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Well Manicured Man posted:Yeah, from the preview I feel like Jenna Coleman chewing the scenery and going full-on  . Or maybe it's some other Time Lord.Then again if that were the twist then I wouldn't expect them put such a big hint for it in the preview, so it could just be a fakeout.
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Oct 26, 2014 13:56
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as... Evil Clara? Evil being masquerading as Clara? Clara was the Master all along and regenerates into Missy a la Derek Jacobi at the end of the episode?
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah it looks like a fob watch twist to me. The idea of The Master deliberately choosing to regenerate into a young woman in order to get picked up by The Doctor is pretty amusing I'm guessing hypnosis or an implanted sleeper personality. That way the whole point is the Doctor trying to make her snap out of it.
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Oct 26, 2014 14:01
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I'm placing my bets about the twist on two things that aren't going to happen, but I like the ideas of enough that I'll be disappointed when they're false. Either A: 'Clara Oswald' never existed because, as an insane level of paradox, she's merely one of the echoes that she herself sent through the Doctor's timestream. Or, B: That constant joke about Clara being the real Doctor is true: to throw everyone off his trail, he regenerated into a spunky young woman, hid in the early 21st century, and started traveling with Eleven.
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Oct 26, 2014 14:20
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So many other things wrong with this terrible, terrible episode have already been covered, so let me ask the nitpicking question: did the trees just have a day off in the thirtieth century? Since we know from many episodes that the earth gets solar flared to a crisp about a thousand years from now setting of an exodus with space whales and space arks and space other things, why didn't the trees stop that one? And that whole, "You'll forget and make it legend," crap. No, people won't forget this. We're not living in 1750's Germany; there is (or at least was before the solar flare) a global communication network and absurd amounts of recording devices. People aren't going to forget the day that all the heroic astronauts on the ISS died screaming.
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Oct 26, 2014 14:29
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DoctorWhat posted:Every time I think about this episode I get more angry about the medications thing. It's a goddamn shame because I really enjoyed watching it the first time, but that whole subplot was either deeply irresponsible, OR active propaganda for a dangerous and harmful cultural phenomenon. jivjov posted:Yeah...I'm in the same boat. I really enjoyed the episode as I was watching it, but after Burk's post and some of my own contemplation, there really are some troubling undertones. I made a big ol' effortpost on the official Doctor Who facebook page...I doubt anything will come of it, but it'd be nice if the BBC would acknowledge that there's a potential issue here. I'm with you two. I mostly enjoyed the episode as I was watching it, but the more I think about it, the worse I feel about the mental health message.
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Oct 26, 2014 14:30
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Cleretic posted:I'm placing my bets about the twist on two things that aren't going to happen, but I like the ideas of enough that I'll be disappointed when they're false. I wanna say this might be kinda on the right track. Evil!Clara in the promo is wearing the same outfit as she was in TNODT when she jumped into the Doctor's time stream. What if the Clara we've had this series is an echo, and next week the original Clara finally pops back into reality, and having seen all the awful poo poo the Doctor has done his entire life, is like "no, gently caress you, you're done". He isn't a good man.
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Oct 26, 2014 14:32
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Random Stranger posted:And that whole, "You'll forget and make it legend," crap. No, people won't forget this. We're not living in 1750's Germany; there is (or at least was before the solar flare) a global communication network and absurd amounts of recording devices. People aren't going to forget the day that all the heroic astronauts on the ISS died screaming. Haven't they used the same idea before, regarding various invasions of Earth? At this point the world being covered with trees isn't a story for the ages, it's Tuesday.
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Oct 26, 2014 14:33
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Wow everyone hates this episode except me and one or two others. Where did all the people who said bad science didn't matter go after the moon egg episode?HD DAD posted:I wanna say this might be kinda on the right track. Evil!Clara in the promo is wearing the same outfit as she was in TNODT when she jumped into the Doctor's time stream. What if the Clara we've had this series is an echo, and next week the original Clara finally pops back into reality, and having seen all the awful poo poo the Doctor has done his entire life, is like "no, gently caress you, you're done". He isn't a good man. All I can say is that it will be really terrible. I haven't heard a Missy theory that isn't awful. But if Clara never existed isn't a misdirect, it is a massive gently caress you to anyone in the audience who liked Clara.
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Oct 26, 2014 14:35
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Haven't they used the same idea before, regarding various invasions of Earth? Yeah, this has long been the show's go-to explanation for why people haven't been well aware of hostile aliens since the '60s or so. Which isn't to say it's an especially satisfying answer.
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Oct 26, 2014 14:39
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And that's not even mentioning why Amy didn't remember the Earth being stolen by Daleks.
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Oct 26, 2014 14:42
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docbeard posted:Yeah, this has long been the show's go-to explanation for why people haven't been well aware of hostile aliens since the '60s or so. Which isn't to say it's an especially satisfying answer. It's not, but at this point it's so much a part of the show's DNA that I don't mind too much. E: With Amy's stuff (and some other bits) I'm happy to put that down to the cracks eating history.
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Oct 26, 2014 14:43
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Dabir posted:And that's not even mentioning why Amy didn't remember the Earth being stolen by Daleks. Actually that was a plot point in Victory of the Daleks, and got waved off with the Cracks and the universe being reset.
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Oct 26, 2014 14:47
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All units! Abort the operation! Repeat, abort the operation! An eight-year-old girl is concerned about trees!
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Oct 26, 2014 14:48
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah it looks like a fob watch twist to me. The idea of The Master deliberately choosing to regenerate into a young woman in order to get picked up by The Doctor is pretty amusing If they do something like that I'd have a really tough time with reconciling how Clara threw herself in the Doctor's timestream. She's either the companion who split herself into a million pieces to save the Doctor or she's some kind of sleeper agent enemy...I don't see how she's both. 
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Oct 26, 2014 14:53
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marktheando posted:Wow everyone hates this episode except me and one or two others. Where did all the people who said bad science didn't matter go after the moon egg episode? Astroman posted:If they do something like that I'd have a really tough time with reconciling how Clara threw herself in the Doctor's timestream. She's either the companion who split herself into a million pieces to save the Doctor or she's some kind of sleeper agent enemy...I don't see how she's both. Also The Master doesn't want The Doctor dead, and he definitely wouldn't want someone else to kill him. He seems to enjoy manipulating and torturing The Doctor more than anything else. I can kindof see "Force The Doctor to fight his beloved companion" as a scheme of his.
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Oct 26, 2014 15:04
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I was fine with the idea that trees could protect us from a solar flare somehow (ignored the techno-babble) but the episode still felt really aimless.
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Oct 26, 2014 15:07
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marktheando posted:Wow everyone hates this episode except me and one or two others. Where did all the people who said bad science didn't matter go after the moon egg episode? The best sci-fi/fantasy is allegory - stripping away reality and replacing it with mumbo-jumbo to create a safe place to explore otherwise controversial or difficult ideas. It seems fairly common in bad sci-fi for the writer to get tied up in ham-fistedly using pseudo-science to justify the scenario they've created instead of focusing on the character interactions and how people respond to each other in difficult situations. In this episode we have the scenario front-and-center and all the characters are an inconsequential background hum that might as well not be there, like visitors on a theme park ride. vv If it's any help I only started watching it this season. I'm not annoyed with this episode because it somehow sullies Doctor Who, I'm annoyed because it was an insulting 45 minutes of TV. The effects were cool, though. dsub fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Oct 26, 2014 |
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Oct 26, 2014 15:12
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that ending was so loving retarded. The more I think about this episode, the more I find how absolutely stupid it is. The ice age just popped up? What kind of inbred idiot writes this junk? Oh god, no! I'm becoming a Who fan! I'm going to start randomly hating every new thing next! Then comes endless comparisons to my favorite episodes! LIKING RTD! AHHHHH! 
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Oct 26, 2014 15:13
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In Kill the Moon the Doctor said Earth wasn't his planet so it wasn't his problem and Clara had a big yell at him about being a hypocrite. In this episode he made a big deal to Clara about how Earth really is his planet. Also the trees growing up over all the landmarks was cool as hell.
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Oct 26, 2014 15:16
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dsub posted:Bad science really doesn't matter - it's science fiction not science fact, however if the plot points rely on basic school-grade science to move forward it's really unforgivable when it's such complete bollocks. It'd be better to not provide a scientific explanation at all than provide a stupid or flat out wrong one. But this episode did spent most of it's time on the characters? It was largely about Maeve and the other kids, the Doctor, Danny and Clara. All the tree stuff was largely an excuse to have them go on an adventure.
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Oct 26, 2014 15:16
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Doctor Spaceman posted:The fact that the Doctor and co didn't actually affect anything was a bit of a problem. In Kill the Moon you can argue that they affected the decision to (not) blow up the moon dragon, but here the only thing they really seemed to accomplish was to get Maebh's sister to come home which given the stakes is fairly small. Pwnstar posted:In Kill the Moon the Doctor said Earth wasn't his planet so it wasn't his problem and Clara had a big yell at him about being a hypocrite. In this episode he made a big deal to Clara about how Earth really is his planet.
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Oct 26, 2014 15:34
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I saw other people mention this regarding the "magic voices are fine! you don't need pills!", and maybe because I'm a teacher now i'm overly sensitive, but jesus gently caress Clara, "You know they're not really gifted and talented, I just tell them that to make them feel better." That's kinda hosed up Doctor Who. Aren't you sorta aimed at kids? Is this Frank Cottrell Boyce's first episode? Enjoyed all the Doctor bits, but the episode just felt sorta meaningless. Next week looks great though! Dohaeris fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Oct 26, 2014 |
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Oct 26, 2014 15:34
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