|
I'm really hoping Clara's awful streak is her being a legitimately evil person bubbling through the surface of her Good self, whatever the gently caress that is. Though we STILL have future Clara grand child to contend with so who the gently caress knows.
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 15:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 15:23 |
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:The implication is that they stopped humans from destroying the trees with that broadcast and thus kept the shield intact. Which was really dumb, but at least it means they did something. The whole episode felt like it needed a few redrafts.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 15:43
|
|
|
what a load of shite that wasUnkempt posted:WHERE THE gently caress WAS EVERYBODY the nice man on the TV told them to stay indoors and lol they all did every last one of them
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:01
|
|
|
I was totally expecting the Doctor would chastize Clara for her poor decision-making re: "let the children die with their families" the same way he called her out on her attitude while she was playing the Doctor's role last week.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:02
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:Thinking back to RTD's era, I really wish more had been done with Time Lord Victorious. I feel like that had such great potential. Especially with the Master coming back, it could have created a lovely parallel with the Master back in the following episode. I don't know... I just felt like there should have been something more there. Didn't want this to get lost in the mix, but I think it was present for just long enough. The Doctor could only be full on-time Time Lord for a minute before, inevitably, it starts to gently caress up the lives of the "lesser races." He could either glory in that fact (like the Master) or be completely indifferent/uncaring (like the Rani and all other Time Lords) but he's incapable of either. Whenever this comes up, I'm reminded of Arrangements For War, where Six completely loses his poo poo from shock and grief and goes back to earlier in the story in direct violation of time laws, yadda yadda yadda. Evelyn stops him from interfering, though, not because of "irreparable damage to the timeline" but because it adversely affect a few people's lives. I don't think we could have had the Doctor ignoring the consequences of his actions any length of time, not without becoming a completely different character.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:05
|
|
|
Cerv posted:the nice man on the TV told them to stay indoors and lol they all did every last one of them I'll be fair for one statement: The trees did do an awful lot of door-blocking. If it takes that much work just to open your front door, and then the government puts out a message of 'just stay in your homes, we're torching the stuff', you might go along with it just because it's more difficult not to. But I'm not going to exert the effort to defend this episode about any points not directly related to Danny Pink. Nobody was around because the writing was lovely, and ignored all possible implications of a massive forest suddenly engulfing the Earth, except for the singular scene that involved escaped zoo animals (which were then immediately forgotten). EDIT: You know what would have made this episode way better? If they expanded on the zoo breakout and had the field trip at the zoo instead of the museum. Holy poo poo, actual consequences that can actually put these kids in actual danger! Sure, it doesn't fix the horrible anti-meds message, and it's probably not going to make the plot resolutions less stupid. But it would make all the parts of the episode that weren't that become interesting and noteworthy by introducing real stakes. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Oct 26, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:09
|
|
|
Frank Cottrell Boyce has written a lot of fiction for children - for television and in novels - throughout his career. I'd have thought he would have cottoned on to the potential implications of the troulesome dimension in question, especially since Doctor Who has as many young viewers as it does. Leaving that aside, here's a piece of trivia; it's interesting to see this story likened to an RTD episode, since Boyce is also the one who credited Davies (quite fairly too, I think) with "saving (British TV) from extinction."
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:14
|
|
|
I don't think it's very RTD below surface level, to be honest; I don't think he'd have let a script this problematic through.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:23
|
|
|
vegetables posted:I don't think it's very RTD below surface level, to be honest; I don't think he'd have let a script this problematic through. Hahaha I can't tell if you are joking or not.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:25
|
|
|
marktheando posted:Hahaha I can't tell if you are joking or not. Thing is that I'm sure there are really obvious things I've forgotten from RTD's time that were genuinely offensive, but I'm struggling to come up with them. Perhaps Donna and Rose's fate in Journey's End? I'm not sure those are unambiguously portrayed as good things, though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:38
|
|
|
vegetables posted:Thing is that I'm sure there are really obvious things I've forgotten from RTD's time that were genuinely offensive, but I'm struggling to come up with them. Perhaps Donna and Rose's fate in Journey's End? I'm not sure those are unambiguously portrayed as good things, though. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:40
|
|
|
Never thought we'd see an episode on par with that one, but whelp here we are  .
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:44
|
|
|
I am kind of amazed by how negative the reaction to this episode has been.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:44
|
|
|
It was really bad and dumb as h*ck
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:46
|
|
|
MrL_JaKiri posted:It was really bad and dumb as h*ck Since when did that cause a negative reaction ITT?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:47
|
|
|
marktheando posted:I am kind of amazed by how negative the reaction to this episode has been. that's what happens when you have an episode that so aggressively refuses to THINK about its message. At least I HOPE that was the problem.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:47
|
|
|
I didn't find Slab!Ursula offensive, although it is very silly. IIRC most of the people I saw being offended by it took issue with the idea you could live like that and be happy, which isn't a view I agree with at all.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:50
|
|
|
Doctor Spaceman posted:The fact that the Doctor and co didn't actually affect anything was a bit of a problem. In Kill the Moon you can argue that they affected the decision to (not) blow up the moon dragon, but here the only thing they really seemed to accomplish was to get Maebh's sister to come home which given the stakes is fairly small. There's not even a proper emotional arc to this episode. There's vague, ham-handed attempts at one but they're malformed, broken things. Even RTD at his hackiest would attempt to give some kind of arc to an episode. This episode was aimless wandering punctuated by scenes that didn't make sense.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:50
|
|
|
vegetables posted:Thing is that I'm sure there are really obvious things I've forgotten from RTD's time that were genuinely offensive, but I'm struggling to come up with them. Naming an episode The Voyage of the Damned.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:52
|
|
|
I'm sorry I accidentally fanned the flames of this argument more. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:52
|
|
|
thexerox123 posted:Naming an episode The Voyage of the Damned. I stand corrected!
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 16:53
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:EDIT: You know what would have made this episode way better? If they expanded on the zoo breakout and had the field trip at the zoo instead of the museum. Holy poo poo, actual consequences that can actually put these kids in actual danger! Sure, it doesn't fix the horrible anti-meds message, and it's probably not going to make the plot resolutions less stupid. But it would make all the parts of the episode that weren't that become interesting and noteworthy by introducing real stakes. This would've gone a long way to fixing it. Dump the meds thing and just say she's been acting a bit weird since her sister's gone missing and it's nowhere near as bad. Hell you could even pass off the lack of people better when they're confined to the one location, and it opens up more suspense with all the animal exhibits being empty or damaged rather than just the Doctor blatantly stating why a wolf was in downtown London.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 17:05
|
|
|
I thought it was a good episode.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 17:09
|
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:This would've gone a long way to fixing it. Dump the meds thing and just say she's been acting a bit weird since her sister's gone missing and it's nowhere near as bad. Hell you could even pass off the lack of people better when they're confined to the one location, and it opens up more suspense with all the animal exhibits being empty or damaged rather than just the Doctor blatantly stating why a wolf was in downtown London. There aren't even any wolves in London Zoo anyway.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 17:14
|
|
|
I get the disturbing feeling that Moffat might go for broke and make Clara his Donna Noble (i.e. making us all like her just to ultimately ruin her character entirely).
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 17:16
|
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:This would've gone a long way to fixing it. Dump the meds thing and just say she's been acting a bit weird since her sister's gone missing and it's nowhere near as bad. Hell you could even pass off the lack of people better when they're confined to the one location, and it opens up more suspense with all the animal exhibits being empty or damaged rather than just the Doctor blatantly stating why a wolf was in downtown London. Remember we already saw this with young Amelia Pond in The Big Bang. She's drawing pictures of skies with mysterious objects called "stars", and her parents are justifiably very concerned because they live in a universe without stars. Later it turns out that Amelia isn't insane, she has a special memory and she is just remembering something which was erased from the universe. It's essentially the same thing, but remember that that whole story beat passed without a blip: no medication angle.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 17:27
|
|
|
So am I the only one who interpreted that line from the trailer about Clara Oswald never having existed being a sign that the finale is going to deal with some sort of time paradox/alternate timestream and not some bullshit CLARA WAS REALLY THE MASTER ALL ALONG nonsense?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 17:31
|
|
|
HappyCamperGL posted:There aren't even any wolves in London Zoo anyway. It's science fiction 
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 17:32
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:In Kill the Moon Clara confronted The Doctor about that, and I think he realized he was wrong. Ya, its cool!
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 17:34
|
|
|
docbeard posted:So am I the only one who interpreted that line from the trailer about Clara Oswald never having existed being a sign that the finale is going to deal with some sort of time paradox/alternate timestream and not some bullshit CLARA WAS REALLY THE MASTER ALL ALONG nonsense?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 17:38
|
|
|
docbeard posted:So am I the only one who interpreted that line from the trailer about Clara Oswald never having existed being a sign that the finale is going to deal with some sort of time paradox/alternate timestream and not some bullshit CLARA WAS REALLY THE MASTER ALL ALONG nonsense? I'm predicting that some stupid convoluted poo poo will happen and Steven Moffat will disappear up his own arsehole.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 17:38
|
|
|
I'm predicting it's a huge red herring that sounds great in a trailer.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 17:46
|
|
|
The shot of St Paul's opening up to reveal a big zappy laser was  enough that I don't mind too much if the episode itself is terrible. Seeing it makes me sad that Mortal Engines, the book for teens that it's possibly nicked from, has never been made into a big budget film.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 17:58
|
|
|
At a very high level, I do think there's a sense that kids are over medicated these days. Give a troublemaker Adderall instead of solving why they're acting out. So in that respect, I get where they were going with the whole "Listen to her" thing. Of course Maebh's symptoms undercut the whole "Don't Soma our kids" message so I get why people are freaking out on the episode.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 18:02
|
|
|
qntm posted:Remember we already saw this with young Amelia Pond in The Big Bang. She's drawing pictures of skies with mysterious objects called "stars", and her parents are justifiably very concerned because they live in a universe without stars. Later it turns out that Amelia isn't insane, she has a special memory and she is just remembering something which was erased from the universe. It's essentially the same thing, but remember that that whole story beat passed without a blip: no medication angle. There you go, bringing reason into a hysterical hissy-fit, how dare you! The episode is so clearly about How Adults Can Be Wrong, but because it's not perfectly written, it's Not Allowed To Be. I too look for validation in all my fictional media and react with utter infantile rage when I feel slighted by its clumsy tropes but I pretend that's in sympathy for others. Now that I've had a yell at internet strangers I can have a nice lie down and maybe write an angry letter to the Guardian later.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 18:07
|
|
|
howe_sam posted:At a very high level, I do think there's a sense that kids are over medicated these days. Give a troublemaker Adderall instead of solving why they're acting out. There is a flipside to this that people who need medication to function at all are discouraged from publicly disclosing this to be the case, and certainly as someone who's in that category I'm struck by how taboo it is to believe that, for me, there is no talking solution to what is certainly a medical condition. The Doctor's stance in this episode actually is the conventional one and not the challenge as far as society is concerned, and I think it's dangerous because in very many cases it is completely wrong. vegetables fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Oct 26, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 18:14
|
|
|
So are we supposed to take away that Missy, whatever she is, is not some kind of omnipotent being from her line about being surprised? If she's not a villain that we've seen before, I feel like this story arc is going to fall a bit flat, since we only have two real episodes to find out who she is and what she's up to. And I think it's important that that sort of thing is well established, given that the arc has intruded into the regular stories more than as just a one word mention like when RTD used to do this. At least the overarching plots with River and the Impossible Girl got developed as they got screen time (not that they were always good). All we know is that there is a sinister person named Missy with a possibly also sinister possible assistant played by Chris Addison, and these people seem to reside in an afterlife and have some weird interest in the Doctor and Clara.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 18:17
|
|
|
ewe2 posted:There you go, bringing reason into a hysterical hissy-fit, how dare you! The episode is so clearly about How Adults Can Be Wrong, but because it's not perfectly written, it's Not Allowed To Be. I too look for validation in all my fictional media and react with utter infantile rage when I feel slighted by its clumsy tropes but I pretend that's in sympathy for others. Now that I've had a yell at internet strangers I can have a nice lie down and maybe write an angry letter to the Guardian later. But Adults Can Be Wrong and The Voices Can Be Right are completely different messages, surely? The first -I think rightly- takes authority away from a controlling influence in a child's life, and the second -I think wrongly- gives more authority to another.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 18:17
|
|
|
ewe2 posted:The episode is so clearly about How Adults Can Be Wrong, but because it's not perfectly written, it's Not Allowed To Be. So yeah. If anyone with a bit of understanding and compassion had any say in the matter, it wouldn't be allowed, no.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 18:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 15:23 |
|
|
vegetables posted:But Adults Can Be Wrong and The Voices Can Be Right are completely different messages, surely? I did say the tropes were clumsy, but are you saying The Voices Are Always Wrong? That to me seems at base what the screaming is about; forget overmedicating parents or children with surprising insight, we can't have voices being right or where will we be? How dare a tv story suggest it?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2014 18:37
|
|