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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:Belarus already beat you to that. 
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Oct 27, 2014 20:51
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Maarek posted:Attaching a fee to going to the doctor is just going to discourage poor people from going to it, which is the real goal. Lo and behold, that's exactly what happened, too! I can't argue with your logic, I'll just retreat here and let the experts figure out a good solution to the problems. I shouldn't have opened my mouth in the first place.
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Oct 27, 2014 20:53
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kalstrams posted:Hungary has a shot if they decide for toilet paper containing sausages. Touche! 
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Oct 27, 2014 20:53
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Jim DiGriz is describing a financial, legal and social situation that doesn't have much in common with the typical European austerity narrative. Immediately jumping on him for using the triggerwords "market" and "competition" probably isn't a productive response.
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Oct 27, 2014 21:01
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Maarek posted:It is pretty astounding that you buy this argument, but then again your 'analysis' of the austerity of the 2000s and late 90s is that the dumb old people just don't understand capitalism and don't get why the market should control all these essential parts of their lives. Okay, I've made a pretty big mistake, leaving something out of my explanation. I'll either look even dumber or at least shed some light on why I said what I said. The visitation fee was actually intended to (to an extent) replace the well-established practice of giving some under-the-table cash to your doctor when they are treating you. I have no idea if there is a word for it in English, but I hope it gets across. So, it was to teach people that they are paying for healthcare already (beside the already deducted social security that people are a bit less aware of), and there is no need for the bribe-like cash envelopes for examinations or operations. But, to answer your sentiments: we just suffer the learning phase. I'm really not a libertarian, nor do I want to blame anyone for not becoming one. I just wanted to bring this whole stuff up as a point to show the turn of the attitude of the governing party and why things haven't really developed in the recent years. Please stop stuffing my head into the toilet. Maarek posted:You think the idea that someone would expect the government makes sure that everyone gets a good wage and decent place to live is some sort of impossible fantasy, but entrepreneurship and 'competition' will create those things for us any day now, right??? Yeah, I'm definitely not trying to say that. There must be a balance point between the "free market" and our current government nationalizing stuff just because. When I say I'd prefer the government to have limits, I'm talking about our current one.
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Oct 27, 2014 21:07
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To my dear Magyar neighbors, if the Orban regime gets really bad you can always hop across the border and come live here in Romania; our internet is cheaper and much faster (and there's no funny tax on it), our neo-nazis are few and pathetic, we got mountains, beaches and poo poo, our VAT is ~only~ 24%, our press is free to be as bad as it can, we're ruled by corrupt "social-democrats" instead of corrupt right-wing clowns, and if you settle in Szekelyland you can live your entire life without ever having to learn a word of romanian, since over there everything from local administration and schools to shops or titty bars is in Hungarian (tho to be fair most of Szekelyland is in a special geographic location that gives it a sub-arctic climate (it's loving cold over there))(and the place it's poorer than the romanian average) Sure there's a lil more poverty, architecture is shittier, highways are pathetic, etc but I really it's not that bad  I even got a totally legit link that totally proves it! http://www.gyakorikerdesek.hu/politika__magyar-politika__4100789-egy-erdelyi-velemenye-van-kerdes Anyway, on the subject of Hungarians, I got an interesting romanian poll: It says "how would you characterize the historical relations with ethnic minorities in Romania?"; blue is good relations, red is bad relations; the options are, in order: serbs, germans, bulgarians, jews, turks, romas and hungarians  "How is the present day relationship between hungarians and romanians in Romania?"  bad 22%, good 26%, neither good nor bad 37% But then it breaks that last poll into people that know ethnic hungarians irl (green) and people that have never met a hungarian (blue); in order, "good relationship", "neither good nor bad", "bad relationship"  (poll source http://www.inscop.ro/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/INSCOP-Sep2013-Relatia-dintre-romani-si-maghiari.pdf ) So it turns out people that have actually met hungarians have a much better opinion about them than people that have never met any. It's basically like this polandball lol 
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Oct 27, 2014 21:07
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Discendo Vox posted:Jim DiGriz is describing a financial, legal and social situation that doesn't have much in common with the typical European austerity narrative. Immediately jumping on him for using the triggerwords "market" and "competition" probably isn't a productive response. Nah, I'm way in over my head, and this is why I don't discuss politics with anyone, in person or online - except for some specific areas I'm not a smart man. And yeah, those words probably have a different meaning for us.
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Oct 27, 2014 21:10
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Discendo Vox posted:Jim DiGriz is describing a financial, legal and social situation that doesn't have much in common with the typical European austerity narrative. Immediately jumping on him for using the triggerwords "market" and "competition" probably isn't a productive response. He didn't just use 'triggerwords', I took his meaning to be that other Hungarians were stupid for expecting the government to make sure they had a decent wage and place to live and that non-stupid people understood that 'competition' and (indirectly) the free market would provide those things. You can't talk about those people being dissatisfied or angry without bringing up the repeated enforcement of austerity upon them and I would say that you are wrong and their financial, legal, and social situation is entirely common for a European country that goes through privatization and austerity. Jim DiGriz posted:But, to answer your sentiments: we just suffer the learning phase. I'm really not a libertarian, nor do I want to blame anyone for not becoming one. I just wanted to bring this whole stuff up as a point to show the turn of the attitude of the governing party and why things haven't really developed in the recent years. Please stop stuffing my head into the toilet. What you need to understand is that I am an American and therefore impotently arguing with people is literally the only kind of political power I can really exercise, you can't ask me to give that up, pal. Maarek fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Oct 27, 2014 |
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Oct 27, 2014 21:12
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:Touche! In the case of Brazil, Rousseff was considerably better than the alternative but sort of shows how weird alliances are being played out for a variety of reasons and there is a lot of simmering tension on all sides. For Hungary, Orban is using fear of austerity and liberalism against the population, and the same time most of his policies are both economically/socially reactionary and the even the way he is conducting nationalization goes in that direction. However, if the political opposition marches in the same direction but under a liberal banner, I can just see it never ending. Hungary since 1989 really hasn't had a stable political process , governments came and went, and Orban has stayed mostly by rigging the process. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Oct 27, 2014 |
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Oct 27, 2014 21:16
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Maarek posted:He didn't just use 'triggerwords', he suggested that other Hungarians were stupid for expecting the government to make sure they had a decent wage and place to live and that non-stupid people understood that 'competition' and (indirectly) the free market would provide those things. For me, "making sure" is not the same as "providing". For me the former would mean that the government makes sure that investors create jobs in a safe and stable environment and the competition in industries is balanced and healthy. Sorry, I have no vocabulary to explain it any other way. Maarek posted:
Yeah, I've heard about the Americans and their lack of political power. But when I give up, I give up hard, guns dropping. Jim DiGriz fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Oct 27, 2014 |
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Oct 27, 2014 21:20
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3peat posted:To my dear Magyar neighbors, if the Orban regime gets really bad you can always hop across the border and come live here in Romania; our internet is cheaper and much faster (and there's no funny tax on it), our neo-nazis are few and pathetic, we got mountains, beaches and poo poo, our VAT is ~only~ 24%, our press is free to be as bad as it can, we're ruled by corrupt "social-democrats" instead of corrupt right-wing clowns, and if you settle in Szekelyland you can live your entire life without ever having to learn a word of romanian, since over there everything from local administration and schools to shops or titty bars is in Hungarian (tho to be fair most of Szekelyland is in a special geographic location that gives it a sub-arctic climate (it's loving cold over there))(and the place it's poorer than the romanian average) You have some goddamn amazing mountains and woods there. And small-town hospitality, as well. quote:So it turns out people that have actually met hungarians have a much better opinion about them than people that have never met any.  .
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Oct 27, 2014 21:27
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Jim DiGriz posted:For me, "making sure" is not the same as "providing". For me the former would mean that the government makes sure that investors create jobs in a safe and stable environment and the competition in industries is balanced and healthy. Sorry, I have no vocabulary to explain it any other way. Ultimately, many times the policies that are taken to attract investors actually worsen the situation of the country to point they are worse than they began. If you cut taxes for businesses, it means that you have to find money to replace it with or cut services further. Some improvements may be done on regulation and the easy of doing business, but there is only so far before they start affecting worker's rights and pay. In many ways Hungary is rather trapped obvious by circumstance as is much of Eastern Europe, especially as the availability of overall European demand lessens. However, I don't see if the Hungarian people can be pushed much further either.
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Oct 27, 2014 21:28
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Jim DiGriz posted:Yeah, I've heard about the Americans and their lack of political power. But when I give up, I give up hard, guns dropping. So I hear. 
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Oct 27, 2014 21:31
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Jim DiGriz posted:Yeah, I've heard about the Americans and their lack of political power. But when I give up, I give up hard, guns dropping. American liberals/social democrats are really vigorous in ideological arguments/slapfights out of necessity, because the austerity loving right wing shitheads have essentially governed the country for like 30 years running. I don't think there's any disagreement here, just posters ITT being used to arguing with ideologues icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Oct 27, 2014 |
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Oct 27, 2014 21:33
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Ardennes posted:Ultimately, many times the policies that are taken to attract investors actually worsen the situation of the country to point they are worse than they began. If you cut taxes for businesses, it means that you have to find money to replace it with or cut services further. And as I wrote earlier, a good telco infrastructure is a huge plus for investors, and this is why the internet tax feels dumb.
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Oct 27, 2014 21:38
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Maarek posted:So I hear. Well, you live to fight another day (and I swear there was a small quip in the first book about this, but I only have it in Hungarian now).
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Oct 27, 2014 21:41
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icantfindaname posted:American liberals/social democrats are really vigorous in ideological arguments/slapfights out of necessity, because the austerity loving right wing shitheads have essentially governed the country for like 30 years running. I don't think there's any disagreement here, just posters ITT being used to arguing with ideologues I have a feeling that Jim DiGriz is alluding to some sort of a Homo Soveticus-type attitude, which has a very different perspective than an American center-left one, at least: it views the state as a provider of everything, rather than as something that helps out in rough times and manages some important things for which the market doesn't work.
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Oct 27, 2014 21:43
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I think that everyone in this thread, regardless of sociopolitical leanings, is united in the belief that the internet tax is a really loving stupid idea. If you are a capitalist it discourages investment and expansion and if you are a socialist it is an (ultimately) regressive form of taxation. I'm sure even the pseudo-fascists hate it, probably because they think the telecoms are run by Z.O.G. or something.OddObserver posted:I have a feeling that Jim DiGriz is alluding to some sort of a Homo Soveticus-type attitude, which has a very different perspective than an American center-left one, at least: it views the state as a provider of everything, rather than as something that helps out in rough times and manages some important things for which the market doesn't work. Well, the grass is always greener. Bring on the matching jumpsuits and central committee approved sustenance boxes, I've had enough of the free market. Maarek fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Oct 27, 2014 |
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Oct 27, 2014 21:43
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Jim DiGriz posted:And as I wrote earlier, a good telco infrastructure is a huge plus for investors, and this is why the internet tax feels dumb. Yeah, I don't think anyone thinks it is a good idea though, the internet has become necessary infrastructure at this point. There are plenty of other ways to get tax revenue. quote:I have a feeling that Jim DiGriz is alluding to some sort of a Homo Soveticus-type attitude, which has a very different perspective than an American center-left one, at least: it views the state as a provider of everything, rather than as something that helps out in rough times and manages some important things for which the market doesn't work. Where does Sweden or France in the 1970s fit in that comparison? To be honest, I don't think people wanting the state to provide for them was really problem about the Soviet Union, rather it was political repression and then the inability to move from a industrial to a information/service economy.
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Oct 27, 2014 21:52
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OddObserver posted:I have a feeling that Jim DiGriz is alluding to some sort of a Homo Soveticus-type attitude, which has a very different perspective than an American center-left one, at least: it views the state as a provider of everything, rather than as something that helps out in rough times and manages some important things for which the market doesn't work. Yes, that's more like it, thank your for clearing it up. At least now I've learned that the concept of "the free market" and "the government" have radically different tones overseas.
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Oct 27, 2014 21:56
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Maarek posted:He didn't just use 'triggerwords', I took his meaning to be that other Hungarians were stupid for expecting the government to make sure they had a decent wage and place to live and that non-stupid people understood that 'competition' and (indirectly) the free market would provide those things. Lol at goons literally cheering for fascism because someone made the mistake of saying that capitalism was good.
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Oct 27, 2014 22:02
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Best Friends posted:Lol at goons literally cheering for fascism because someone made the mistake of saying that capitalism was good. In Hungary, the two seem inseparable.
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Oct 27, 2014 22:14
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Best Friends posted:Lol at goons literally cheering for fascism because someone made the mistake of saying that capitalism was good. There are fascist parties in Europe making gains because people are angry about their living conditions and don't agree with the way their governments are trying to "fix" them, AKA austerity. This is a bad thing and we should avoid it by not letting those people do that thing that makes people get really angry and vote for fascist parties, I think this is a concept simple enough even for a GiP poster to understand.
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Oct 27, 2014 22:16
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Maarek posted:There are fascist parties in Europe making gains because people are angry about their living conditions and don't agree with the way their governments are trying to "fix" them, AKA austerity. This is a bad thing and we should avoid it by not letting those people do that thing that makes people get really angry and vote for fascist parties, I think this is a concept simple enough even for a GiP poster to understand. "It is okay that actual literal fascists are going to make life even worse economically, because, austerity, was, like, bad. Someone who actually lives there and does not want things to become even economically worse is part of the problem, because he said trigger words I don't like." Also, because it wasn't funny enough the first time: Maarek posted:What you need to understand is that I am an American and therefore impotently arguing with people is literally the only kind of political power I can really exercise, you can't ask me to give that up, pal. "Listen, ye local, as I hold forth with my dumb opinions, for I am an American, and powerless, things are really bad here, so I know more than you or something." Christ. You are not adding to the discussion when a local tells you about how things are and why and you just vomit words back at them and let them know that 1) you don't know a loving thing and 2) you still consider your views and opinions more valuable than their own.
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Oct 27, 2014 22:31
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3peat posted:To my dear Magyar neighbors, if the Orban regime gets really bad you can always hop across the border and come live here in Romania; our internet is cheaper and much faster (and there's no funny tax on it), our neo-nazis are few and pathetic, we got mountains, beaches and poo poo, our VAT is ~only~ 24%, our press is free to be as bad as it can, we're ruled by corrupt "social-democrats" instead of corrupt right-wing clowns, and if you settle in Szekelyland you can live your entire life without ever having to learn a word of romanian, since over there everything from local administration and schools to shops or titty bars is in Hungarian (tho to be fair most of Szekelyland is in a special geographic location that gives it a sub-arctic climate (it's loving cold over there))(and the place it's poorer than the romanian average) I'm now seriously considering Romania as a candidate. Other option was Slovakia so far, as Austria quickly dropped off the list with my current salary.
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Oct 27, 2014 22:39
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Best Friends posted:"It is okay that actual literal fascists are going to make life even worse economically, because, austerity, was, like, bad. Someone who actually lives there and does not want things to become even economically worse is part of the problem, because he said trigger words I don't like." The "locals" thing is overblown by the simple fact is a lot of this thread are "locals" or are "non-natives" living in Eastern Europe and there are plenty of different opinions (still). However, I think we are dancing around the point of that austerity and free market measures almost certainly won't fix the issue, especially since Orban has instituted plenty of them. Orban has slashed budgets and shifted the tax burden to working people. Ultimately, the issue is economic and to be honest, economics is rather universal once you actually get down to what is happening. I don't think a new non-Orban form of austerity is what Hungary actually needs.
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Oct 27, 2014 22:44
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Ardennes posted:Ultimately, the issue is economic and to be honest, economics is rather universal once you actually get down to what is happening. I don't think a new non-Orban form of austerity is what Hungary actually needs. I don't see anyone here arguing for that. What I see is someone saying "these new measures will be very bad and I am opposed to them" and then a bunch of goons flipping their poo poo because oh no he said bad words like "entrepreneur" and "cost of health care." Basically an issue of semantic offense, leading to a round of goon denunciations and treating him like a personal embodiment of the IMF when his issue is "hey I don't like these fascists."
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Oct 27, 2014 22:54
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Drug suspect in Minsk hid his pot in kinder surprise egg. http://belapan.by/archive/2014/10/27/736395/ quote:Minsk, October 27. Investigating authorities initiated a criminal case against a 23-year-old native of Cherven living in Minsk, he is suspected of drug trafficking. According to the police department of Minsk regional executive committee, department staff protection departments in conjunction with the district detained a young man in the Liberty Square in Chervene for disorderly conduct. When personal search in the backpack he found the ground plant mass is stored in the egg from Kinder surprise. According to the forensic medical examination, found the substance is marijuana.
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Oct 27, 2014 23:02
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Wierre posted:I'm now seriously considering Romania as a candidate. Other option was Slovakia so far, as Austria quickly dropped off the list with my current salary. I was half joking in that post, but if you have a free week you can always take a train and visit Transylvania to see what it's like; and if you don't wanna freeze your rear end off in Szekelyland, there's always Cluj (Kolozsvar) which still has a fairly large Hungarian minority and is an actual city with actual things to do; it's also an university town, so there are a lot of young people that know english so it's easy to communicate. Plus it's cleaner and better looking than your average romanian town, and there's next to no crime.
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Oct 27, 2014 23:15
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:Drug suspect in Minsk hid his pot in kinder surprise egg. The yellow container from Kinder Surprise eggs has been used for storing pot by nearly everyone I know (who smokes pot..) 3peat posted:I was half joking in that post, but if you have a free week you can always take a train and visit Transylvania to see what it's like; and if you don't wanna freeze your rear end off in Szekelyland, there's always Cluj (Kolozsvar) which still has a fairly large Hungarian minority and is an actual city with actual things to do; it's also an university town, so there are a lot of young people that know english so it's easy to communicate. Plus it's cleaner and better looking than your average romanian town, and there's next to no crime. I've spent a few childhood vacations there, and also visited other parts of the country. And worked in Bucharest, so I'm sorta familiar with it a bit. with a rebel yell she QQd fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Oct 27, 2014 |
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Oct 27, 2014 23:16
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Best Friends posted:I don't see anyone here arguing for that. What I see is someone saying "these new measures will be very bad and I am opposed to them" and then a bunch of goons flipping their poo poo because oh no he said bad words like "entrepreneur" and "cost of health care." Basically an issue of semantic offense, leading to a round of goon denunciations and treating him like a personal embodiment of the IMF when his issue is "hey I don't like these fascists." It would be cool if you could take your personal crusade against D&D's Vast Left Wing Conspiracy back to GiP instead of posting "lol yall like fascism" after the derail was over. The poster himself doesn't seem to want to debate economics, and I'm not going re-criticize his post to indulge you.
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Oct 27, 2014 23:17
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Maarek posted:The poster himself doesn't seem to want to debate economics, and I'm not going re-criticize his post to indulge you. You were not debating economics, and your criticism was "lol fart" just like your counterpoint to me is "lol GIP." I'm taking from this that you feel appropriately stupid and won't blow up on people giving valuable insight when they use words you don't like for actual economic events, and that's good. Thank you.
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Oct 27, 2014 23:19
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Best Friends posted:I don't see anyone here arguing for that. What I see is someone saying "these new measures will be very bad and I am opposed to them" and then a bunch of goons flipping their poo poo because oh no he said bad words like "entrepreneur" and "cost of health care." Basically an issue of semantic offense, leading to a round of goon denunciations and treating him like a personal embodiment of the IMF when his issue is "hey I don't like these fascists." Seems to be more of a meta-conservation than anything and to be honest, I am more interested in the nuts and bolts of his point. I don't think the guy is the "living embodiment of the IMF" but his point was broader than "I don't like fascism" as well. It is actually a bit difficult to discussion without getting into Hungarian politics, which are pretty unique even for Eastern Europe. One thing is that the old communist became a socialist party that turned very sharply free market while the big anti-communist party (Fidesz) went more populist/interventionist. However, they didn't really completely "switch either" and Orban is more of a strong-man state capitalist reactionary. Recently, there has been a some changes, since the socialists (MszP) and split then re-merged in a united opposition, however Hungary doesn't really have a classic left-right spectrum even when you tack on Jobbik. Basically, there isn't a traditional left in Hungary, not even in the very very loose American sense.
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Oct 27, 2014 23:21
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Best Friends posted:You were not debating economics, and your criticism was "lol fart" just like your counterpoint to me is "lol GIP." I'm taking from this that you feel appropriately stupid and won't blow up on people giving valuable insight when they use words you don't like for actual economic events, and that's good. Thank you. If you want to argue about austerity in Hungary or economics in general you can go ahead and make your case and we can do that, but what you should take from this is that I don't want to argue with you about what Jim DiGriz said because he seems like a cool guy and you're a dick.
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Oct 27, 2014 23:28
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Ardennes posted:Where does Sweden or France in the 1970s fit in that comparison? To be honest, I don't think people wanting the state to provide for them was really problem about the Soviet Union, rather it was political repression and then the inability to move from a industrial to a information/service economy. I don't have a good idea of what they were like, so I can't answer. Anyway, often times nostalgia for "simpler times" of state providing everything bleeds into a nostalgia of the old totalitarian regime --- not only did you not have to worry about tough stuff, but also uppity youths that thought they could rock the boat "got what they deserved". Beyond that, I can't rally formulate it well, but... the political repression and total economic control were not unrelated --- and the escape from the economic control was corruption.
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Oct 27, 2014 23:29
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OddObserver posted:I don't have a good idea of what they were like, so I can't answer. Anyway, often times nostalgia for "simpler times" of state providing everything bleeds into a nostalgia of the old It isn't all imaginary though in a sense, because in some ways it was simpler and more reliable, and the 1990s was a real shock for a lot of people who grew up in that system. It isn't just pensioners but sometimes even people in their 30s. There are going to be plenty of people who want a more reliable system of living, and will be willing to accept or ignore a lot to get it. I can't fully blame then either even if I think they often wear some thick rose-colored glasses. Granted, a guy like Putin or Orban gives the illusion of stability without actually accomplishing it, so it is sort of a shadow game where the divide is over the rhetoric not results or actions. They have capitalized on people's desires and have given nothing to them in return, at the same time, no one knows what an actually alternative would look like or how it could happen. It is what a true graveyard of ideologies looks like. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Oct 27, 2014 |
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Oct 27, 2014 23:43
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The idea or feeling of being powerful again might be enough. Putin's approval ratings went up during the annexation of Crimea and are still ridiculously high even as they go into a recession. Sometimes people will go along with a lot of bullshit if their leaders bring back some of that former glory, especially in a place like Russia that was a superpower in living memory. It worked in Germany after WWI, at least.
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Oct 28, 2014 00:02
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Maarek posted:The idea or feeling of being powerful again might be enough. Putin's approval ratings went up during the annexation of Crimea and are still ridiculously high even as they go into a recession. Sometimes people will go along with a lot of bullshit if their leaders bring back some of that former glory, especially in a place like Russia that was a superpower in living memory. It worked in Germany after WWI, at least. It is unclear at this point what will happen simply because it is pretty difficult to predict energy prices years in advance at this point, Brent prices have stablized a bit at around 85 but they could easily drop again and the Ruble keeps on taking a beating. That said, it could recover and much of it could reverse, predicting commodity markets is not an exact science especially not anymore. I think that is the open question, how much economic damage can happen before their hold breaks?
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Oct 28, 2014 00:18
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Maarek posted:The idea or feeling of being powerful again might be enough. Putin's approval ratings went up during the annexation of Crimea and are still ridiculously high even as they go into a recession. Sometimes people will go along with a lot of bullshit if their leaders bring back some of that former glory, especially in a place like Russia that was a superpower in living memory. It worked in Germany after WWI, at least. I think a lot of Americans don't really get this. They think that because life was lovely in the Soviet Union (especially compared to Glorious Capitalist America), the Russians should welcome the introduction of capitalism and world culture. They're forgetting that the USSR was a superpower that was the only real rival to the United States for almost half a century and the loss of that power is still recent. Imagine if the United States fragmented; even the people who despise the federal government today will start to miss the easier life.
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Oct 28, 2014 00:39
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I love going back and re-reading Camus' essay on Hungary every now and then: http://www.magtudin.org/Albert%20Camus%20Eng.htm While my personal and academic interests have focused primarily on Romania and Roma along with, unfortunately, a generalization of Eastern Europe as a whole, Hungary's post-WW2 history is heavy poo poo. Maybe I've avoided digging into what looks like a swamp of complexity to slog through to have a handle on the main narratives and contexts. Is there a book or two I can pick up to get a better than pedestrian grasp of Hungarian politics and history? I have access to university resources, so articles work too.
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Oct 28, 2014 02:23
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