Let's Read the Sword of Truth books! (Or not. Can we not?)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Let's Read the Sword of Truth books! (Or not. Can we not?)

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Bieeanshee: Aug 21, 2000; Not keen on keening.; Grimey Drawer

Riftwar ended for me with Prince of the Blood. poo poo was mostly settled and so were the people who adventured in the original novels, and Feist couldn't have made 'Pug's daddy is Merlin' any more obvious without taking out an ad in the New York Times. What really ended it for me was the revelation that a minor character who vanished early in the novel, was found shivved in a store room and mourned for... maybe a paragraph. That really soured me on things-- though Pug's wife going 'Oh yeah, I have cancer and I'm going to die with my people, bye now' is six shades of poo poo too.

One of the friends who loved Eddings has stuck with the series (I think they're among the only things he's read for pleasure) and to hear him tell it, main characters keep dying by the drove. Main characters named for previous, probably dead characters, making the whole thing look like an exercise in tracing, then burning down multiple family trees.

# ? Oct 27, 2014 18:46

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 03:38

TwoQuestions: Aug 26, 2011

I remember watching the Sword of Truth TV series on Netflix, and thinking it was the dumbest poo poo ever with the main character constantly worrying about his "quest". Who the gently caress says "quest" in casual conversation anyway?

They did leave out the bit about where the titular Sword turns you into a Sith lord though. I want to see more of Darth Cipher's whacky adventures!

# ? Oct 27, 2014 18:56

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

TwoQuestions posted:

I remember watching the Sword of Truth TV series on Netflix, and thinking it was the dumbest poo poo ever with the main character constantly worrying about his "quest". Who the gently caress says "quest" in casual conversation anyway?

They did leave out the bit about where the titular Sword turns you into a Sith lord though. I want to see more of Darth Cipher's whacky adventures!

The TV show was awesome in a campy way. It helped that they got rid of (most of) what makes the books so creepy. I was sad it didn't get a third season.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 05:04

Nihilarian: Oct 2, 2013

FourLeaf posted:

The TV show was awesome in a campy way. It helped that they got rid of (most of) what makes the books so creepy. I was sad it didn't get a third season.

I wouldn't call it awesome, but the TV show was fine. If you like stuff like Xena or Hercules you'll probably like it too.

That said, it's been a while for me.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 05:47

claw game handjob: Mar 27, 2007; pinch pinch scrape pinch
ow ow fuck it's caught
i'm bleeding
JESUS TURN IT OFF
WHY ARE YOU STILL SMILING

Offscreen: Richard comes to the entirely logical decision that since the mob failed horribly, it means Darken Rahl is coming right for them. They flee into the night, Zedd's house is nuked by wizard fire in the distance, and two short-tail gars attack them on the road. Nobody dies.

Then they head to Chase's house, because Richard's brilliant deduction last time was "If anyone would know about a hole in the boundary, it would be a boundary warden." That one I can't fault. However, because this is an anti-government series, we need an entire speech about how nobody understands the wardens but the wardens, and ESPECIALLY not their bosses.

quote:

"Most people don't understand the boundary, or what we do. They think it's just some stupid law we enforce. Many are afraid of the boundary, mostly older people. Many others think they know what's best and go up there to poach. They aren't afraid of the boundary, so we make them afraid of the wardens. That's something real to them, and we keep it real. They don't like it, but out of fear of us, they stay away. To a few it's a game, to see if they can get away with it. We don't expect to catch them all; we don't really care. What we care about is scaring enough of them so the wolves in the boundary won't have enough rabbits to get stronger.

"We protect the people, but not by preventing them from going into the boundary. Anyone stupid enough to do that is beyond our help. Our job is to keep most away, keep the boundary weak enough so the things in there can't come out and get everyone else. The wardens have all seen things that have gotten loose. We all understand; others don't. Lately, more and more things have been getting loose. Your brother's government may pay us, but they don't understand, either; our allegiance is not to them, nor to any rule of law. Our only duty is to protect the people from the things that come out of the darkness. We consider ourselves sovereign. We take orders when it doesn't hinder our job. It keeps matters friendly. But if the time ever comes, well, we follow our own cause, our own orders."

I could make a case for this being some kind of US border analogue, but that's probably a stretch. Also, the ACTUAL racist poo poo is coming later.

We are now into Fantasy Schlockfest territory as ~~Rand and pals~~ Richard and friends flee from ~~Darkspawn~~ "Heart Hounds", with ~~Lan~~ Chase doubling back to set false trails and take care of some pursuers. So what I'm saying is this is literally the early chunk of Eye of the World. Let's focus in on more of that Goodkind Worldbuild, shall we?

quote:

Chase picked up a loaf of bread and tore off about a third. He met Richard's eyes. "They're called heart hounds. They're about twice the size of a wolf, big barrel chests, heads are kind of flat, big snout full of teeth. Fierce. I'm not sure what color they are. They only prowl at night, until today, that is. But it was too dark in those woods to tell, and anyway, I was kind of busy. There were more than I've ever seen together before."

"Why are they called heart hounds?"

Chase chewed a piece of bread as he stared back with intense eyes. "That's a matter of some debate. Heart hounds have big rounded ears, good hearing. Some say they can find a man by hearing the beating of his heart." Richard's eyes widened. Chase took another bite of bread, chewing for a minute. "Others say they're called heart hounds because that's how they kill. They come at your chest. Most predators go for the throat, but not heart hounds; they go straight for your heart, and they have big enough teeth to get the job done. It's the first thing they eat, too. If there's more than one hound, they'll fight over the heart." He took another bite of bread, looking down at his chest as he chewed. He pulled the heavy mail away from himself. There were two long ragged rips in the chain. Broken pieces of yellow teeth were jammed into mangled links. The leather tunic behind it was soaked with hound's blood. "The one that did this had the blade of my short sword broken off in his chest, and I was still on my horse at the time." He looked back to Richard and raised an eyebrow. "That answer your question?"

Bumps ran up Richard's arms. "What about the way they can go in and out of the boundary?"

Chase took the bowl of stew from Kahlan as she handed it to him. "They have something to do with the magic of the boundary; they were created with it. They are the boundary's watchdogs, so to speak. They can go in and out without being claimed by it. But they're tied to it too, and can't go far from it. With the boundary weakening, they've been straying farther and farther all the time. That makes traveling Hawkers Trail dangerous, but to go another way would add a good week to the journey to Kings' Port. The cutoff we took is the only one that veers away from the boundary until we get to Southaven. I knew I had to reach you before you passed it, or we would have had to spend the night back there, with them. Tomorrow, in the daylight, when it's safer, I'll show you the boundary, how it's weakening."

"They are tan," Kahlan said softly. They all turned to her. She sat staring into the fire. "The heart hounds are tan, with short fur, like that on the back of a deer. They are seen everywhere now in the Midlands, having been released from their bonds when the other boundary failed. Crazed with lack of purpose, now they even come out in the daytime."

The three men sat motionless, considering her words. Even Zedd stopped eating.

"Great," Richard said under his breath. "And what else does the Midlands have that is even worse?" He didn't mean it as a question, more as a curse of frustration. The fire crackled, warm on their faces.

Kahlan's eyes were in a faraway place. "Darken Rahl," she whispered.

I really loving mean it: wizards in this setting are GODDAMN IDIOTS and they have never made a good decision in their lives. Every possible thing that can haunt our heroes will. "Oops, we created things to police the HOLE INTO HELL that we used as a border, except when they repaired the hole, all the guardians got loose for some reason."

Speaking of wizards being idiots: a day or so later of this chase, Richard and Zedd are up late on watch and we get more Objectivist Fun Time.

quote:

Zedd smiled. "Well, that part went well." He sat a minute, his smile faded. "But Richard, the issue is bigger than just what happened today. You must understand that, as Seeker, you may cause the death of innocent people. In order to succeed in stopping Rahl you may have to turn away from those who might be saved with your help. A soldier knows that on the battlefield, if he bends to help a downed comrade, he might take a sword in the back, and so, if he is to win, he must fight on despite the cries for help from his fellows. You must be able to do this to win; it may be the only way. You must steel yourself to it. This is a struggle for survival, and in this battle the ones crying for help probably won't be soldiers, but innocents. Darken Rahl will kill anyone to win. Those who fight on his side will do the same. You may have to do the same. Like it or not, the aggressor makes the rules. You must play by them, or you will surely die by them."

"How could anyone fight on his side? Darken Rahl wants to dominate everyone, to be the master of all. How could they fight for him?"

The wizard leaned back against the rock and looked out over the hills, as if seeing more than was there. His tone was sorrowful. "Because, Richard, many people must be ruled to thrive. In their selfishness and greed, they see free people as their oppressors. They wish to have a leader who will cut the taller plants so the sun will reach them. They think no plant should be allowed to grow taller than the shortest, and in that way give light to all. They would rather be provided a guiding light, regardless of the fuel, than light a candle themselves.

"Some of them think that when Rahl wins, he will smile on them, and they will be rewarded, and so they are as ruthless as he to gain his favor. Some are simply blind to the truth and fight for the lies they hear. And some find, once that guiding light is lit, that they are wearing chains, and then it is too late." Zedd smoothed his sleeves down his arms as he sighed. "There have always been wars, Richard. Every war is a murderous struggle between foes. And yet, no army has ever marched into battle thinking that the Creator had sided with their enemy."

Richard shook his head. "It doesn't make sense."

One of the most overused metaphors about THE TYRANNY OF THE WEAK is the forest/plants metaphor. In fact, one of the absolute worst songs Rush ever did in Neal Peart's Objectivist phase* was "The Trees". Please click the below video if you want to hear this exact loving metaphor belted out with the union connection spelled out in 1979.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnC88xBPkkc&t=240s

Every goddamn Objectivist thinks they're the tall tree, the captain of industry, the strongest, smartest rear end in a top hat in the room. Every time I have to deal with one, it's entirely true, I wish someone would chainsaw them down a few inches. Doesn't matter where you measure from.

_{* The joke is that this phase never ended. See his current transmedia opus Clockwork Angels, which I am willing to bet I could also mine for some similar cringeworthiness.}

Anyway let's cut away from me gettin' mad at Zedd and Ayn Rand and learn about how cartoonishly evil Panis Rahl was.

quote:

Richard gave a mental shudder at the thought of Kahlan killing him just for offering her an apple. He frowned. "Zedd? Why are all red fruits in the Midlands deadly poison? It isn't natural."

The wizard gave a sorrowful shake of his head. "Because, Richard, children like red fruit."

Richard's frown deepened. "That doesn't make any sense."

Zedd looked down, pushing a bony finger at the dirt for a moment. "It was about this time of year, in the last war. The harvests were in. I had found a constructed magic. That's a magic made by wizards of long ago. Something like the boxes of Orden. It was a poison magic, specific to color, and only able to cast one spell, one time. I wasn't sure how it was used, but I knew it was dangerous." Zedd took a deep breath and put his hands in his lap. "Anyway, Panis Rahl got his hands on it, and figured out how to make it work. He knew children loved fruit, and wanted to strike a blow at our hearts. He used the magic to poison all red fruit. It's a little like the poison of the snake vine. Slow at first. It took time for us to realize what caused the fever, and death. Panis Rahl deliberately chose something he could be sure children, not just the adults, would eat." His voice was barely audible as he looked out into the darkness. "A lot of people died. A lot of children."

Richard's eyes were wide. "If you found it, how did he get hold of it?"

Zedd looked into Richard's eyes with an expression that could have frozen a summer day. "I had a student, a young man I was training. One day I chanced upon him tinkering with something he shouldn't have been. I had an odd doubt about him. I knew something was wrong, but I was very fond of him and so I didn't act upon my suspicion. Instead, I decided to think on it for the night. The next morning, he was gone, and so was the constructed magic I had found. He had been a spy for Panis Rahl. If I had acted when I should have, and killed him, all those people, all those children, wouldn't have died."

Richard swallowed. "Zedd, you couldn't have known."

He thought that maybe the old man was going to yell, or cry, or storm off, but instead he only shrugged. "Learn from my mistake, Richard. If you do, then all those lives won't have been lost for nothing. Maybe their story can be a lesson that will help save everyone from what Darken Rahl will do if he wins."

WHY DID YOU LEAVE A CHUNK OF MAGIC AROUND THAT WAS DESIGNED TO DO NOTHING BUT CONVERT A COLOR INTO POISON OH MY GOD

I'm cutting a lot of words out, but this entire spiel Zedd's going through right now is both foreshadowing, and horrifying, and boils down to "Richard, you're the weak link in our chain because you have empathy. Kill on sight, no matter who or what the enemy is. Kahlan and I are sure as hell going to, and so do the Rahls."

Actually I think I just layered like three chunks of foreshadowing in there by accident. Oops~

# ? Oct 28, 2014 08:29

claw game handjob: Mar 27, 2007; pinch pinch scrape pinch
ow ow fuck it's caught
i'm bleeding
JESUS TURN IT OFF
WHY ARE YOU STILL SMILING

I want you to know I spent an hour cleaning up the original, super-drunk version of that writeup for you all after the last one was so lovely, and I did it in the 5 hours I have between two shifts. This is how much I love you/hate myself.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 08:35

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:

I want you to know I spent an hour cleaning up the original, super-drunk version of that writeup for you all after the last one was so lovely, and I did it in the 5 hours I have between two shifts. This is how much I love you/hate myself.

I certainly appreciate it. It's nice to have a concrete reminder that my younger self had even worse taste than I do now.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 08:56

SSJ_naruto_2003: Oct 12, 2012

Plague of Hats posted:

I certainly appreciate it. It's nice to have a concrete reminder that my younger self had even worse taste than I do now.

Not an emptyquote.

I actually recommended this series to my wife like a year ago, then I started re-reading the book and told her to not waste her time.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 08:58

claw game handjob: Mar 27, 2007; pinch pinch scrape pinch
ow ow fuck it's caught
i'm bleeding
JESUS TURN IT OFF
WHY ARE YOU STILL SMILING

Now I can't sleep because of that. poo poo.

I'm just going to drag you all down the rabbit hole with me, I just read through the entirety of this site to detox and I'll now see if I can't clean up another post before next shift.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 09:07

Pththya-lyi: Nov 8, 2009; THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:

Rush

Ahaha, Rush is a fun band. I do appreciate how "2112" takes Anthem and makes it good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZm1_jtY1SQ

# ? Oct 28, 2014 09:16

AVeryLargeRadish: Aug 19, 2011; I LITERALLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO NOT BE A WEIRD SEXUAL CREEP ABOUT PREPUBESCENT ANIME GIRLS, READ ALL ABOUT IT HERE!!!

Hmmm, this Darken Rahl( :lol:

) guy seems pretty powerful, doesn't that mean that everything he does is "right" according to Objectivist "philosophy"?

I mean I know there must be some dumb copout but I can't help but wonder how anyone gets taken in by such a juvenile bunch of claptrap that completely unravels at the slightest scrutiny.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 09:39

reignonyourparade: Nov 15, 2012

DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:

One of the most overused metaphors about THE TYRANNY OF THE WEAK is the forest/plants metaphor. In fact, one of the absolute worst songs Rush ever did in Neal Peart's Objectivist phase* was "The Trees". Please click the below video if you want to hear this exact loving metaphor belted out with the union connection spelled out in 1979.

The Trees is actually amazing and hilarious because I have on multiple occasions had people listen to the lyrics and then asked them what the political message was and EVERY SINGLE TIME the answer it's a leftist song.

Only an objectivist could write the lines "the maples want more sunlight and the oaks ignore their pleas" and "and they wonder why the maples can't be happy in their shade" and not go "jesus the oaks are loving assholes."

# ? Oct 28, 2014 10:00

Drakyn: Dec 26, 2012

DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:

quote:
They wish to have a leader who will cut the taller plants so the sun will reach them. They think no plant should be allowed to grow taller than the shortest, and in that way give light to all.
Every goddamn Objectivist thinks they're the tall tree, the captain of industry, the strongest, smartest rear end in a top hat in the room. Every time I have to deal with one, it's entirely true, I wish someone would chainsaw them down a few inches. Doesn't matter where you measure from.

Of all the trumped-up parables of why being awesome is grand, why would they use one that openly implies that they only gain power by strangling others for resources?

reignonyourparade posted:

Only an objectivist could write the lines "the maples want more sunlight and the oaks ignore their pleas" and "and they wonder why the maples can't be happy in their shade" and not go "jesus the oaks are loving assholes."

Yeah, exactly like that.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 14:30

Toph Bei Fong: Feb 29, 2008

reignonyourparade posted:

The Trees is actually amazing and hilarious because I have on multiple occasions had people listen to the lyrics and then asked them what the political message was and EVERY SINGLE TIME the answer it's a leftist song.

Only an objectivist could write the lines "the maples want more sunlight and the oaks ignore their pleas" and "and they wonder why the maples can't be happy in their shade" and not go "jesus the oaks are loving assholes."

It honestly took me years to realize that it could be taken as not pro-union. "They cut down all the rich dudes and everyone gets enough. They stop the tree mobsters and evil capitalists and everyone's equal. Seems pretty straightforward and legit to me."

Not that Peart himself cares one way or another what the meaning was:

Modern Drummer, April/May 1980 posted:

http://www.andrewolson.com/Neil_Peart/neilpeart_firstinterview.htm
CI: The tune "Trees" from your Hemispheres album comes to my mind as you speak.

NP: Lyrically, that's a piece of doggerel. I certainly wouldn't be proud of the writing skill of that. What I would be proud of in that is taking a pure idea and creating an image for it. I was very proud of what I achieved in that sense. Although on the skill side of it, it's zero. I wrote "Trees" in about five minutes. It's simple rhyming and phrasing, but it illustrates a point so clearly. I wish I could do that all of the time.

CI: Did that particular song's lyrics cover a deeper social message?

NP: No, it was just a flash. I was working on an entirely different thing when I saw a cartoon picture of these trees carrying on like fools. I thought. "What if trees acted like people?" So, I saw it as a cartoon really, and wrote it that way. I think that's the image that it conjures up to a listener or a reader. A very simple statement.

CI: Do all of your lyrics follow that way of thinking, or have you expressed a more philosophical view in other songs that you have written?

NP Usually, I just want to create a nice picture, or it might have a musical justification that goes beyond the lyrics. I just try to make the lyrics a good part of the music. Many times there's something strong that I'm trying to say, I look for a nice way to say it musically. The simplicity of the technique in "Trees" doesn't really matter to me. It can be the same way in music. We can write a really simple piece of music, and it will feel great. The technical side is just not relevant. Especially from a listening point of view. When I'm listening to other people I'm not listening to how hard their music is to play, I listen to how good the music is to listen to.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 16:27

Pimpmust: Oct 1, 2008

DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:

We are now into Fantasy Schlockfest territory as ~~Rand and pals~~ Richard and friends flee from ~~Darkspawn~~ "Heart Hounds", with ~~Lan~~ Chase doubling back to set false trails and take care of some pursuers. So what I'm saying is this is literally the early chunk of Eye of the World. Let's focus in on more of that Goodkind Worldbuild, shall we?

Actually it's Shadowspawn, Darkspawn is Bioware's copy and file-off-the-numbers from WoT with a little mix of Warhammer warpy stuff and twisted Tolkien Orcs :v:

More specifically he's probably ripping off the Darkhounds. Perhaps not very closely other than "big evil hunting dogs" unless he later ticks some more of these boxes:

quote:

~~Darkhounds look like pony-sized dogs or wolves, and are used by the Shadow to hunt down targets.~~
Their saliva is deadly poison; a single drop on the skin can kill.
Darkhounds leave footprints in stone, along with a trace scent of sulfur, but will leave none at all in softer ground.
Darkhounds can be extraordinarily difficult to kill, regenerating from even mortal wounds like the severing of a limb.
While some can be harmed by normal weapons there exists a stronger variety that cannot be killed with anything short of balefire.
They do not give up easily on their prey and once they have your trail the only choice is to turn and kill it or be killed.
The Darkhounds dislike rain and thunderstorms, but this will not stop them once on the trail of their quarry.
They are faster than horses, and can maintain their speed longer than even the strongest horse.

Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Oct 28, 2014

# ? Oct 28, 2014 17:26

SSJ_naruto_2003: Oct 12, 2012

Pimpmust posted:

Actually it's Shadowspawn, Darkspawn is Bioware's copy and file-off-the-numbers from WoT with a little mix of Warhammer warpy stuff and twisted Tolkien Orcs

More specifically he's probably ripping off the Darkhounds. Perhaps not very closely other than "big evil hunting dogs" unless he later ticks some more of these boxes:

~~Darkhounds look like pony-sized dogs or wolves, and are used by the Shadow to hunt down targets.~~
~~Their saliva is deadly poison; a single drop on the skin can kill.~~
~~Darkhounds leave footprints in stone, along with a trace scent of sulfur, but will leave none at all in softer ground.~~
~~Darkhounds can be extraordinarily difficult to kill, regenerating from even mortal wounds like the severing of a limb.~~
~~While some can be harmed by normal weapons there exists a stronger variety that cannot be killed with anything short of balefire.~~
They do not give up easily on their prey and once they have your trail the only choice is to turn and kill it or be killed.
The Darkhounds dislike rain and thunderstorms, but this will not stop them once on the trail of their quarry.
They are faster than horses, and can maintain their speed longer than even the strongest horse.

That may be true, if I'm remembering correctly.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 17:34

Pimpmust: Oct 1, 2008

Does the "not harmed by normal weapons" include being chopped up but reforming like the god drat T-1000?
That aspect and the deadly poison saliva made the Darkhounds real nasty (and cool). Can't outrun them, can't hide and can't kill them (unless you happen to be a rather specifically powerful and skilled walking nuke/demigod).
Good luck :xcom:

# ? Oct 28, 2014 17:41

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

I'd forgotten all about Heart Hounds. Mostly because this is the ONLY loving TIME THEY COME UP.

These things that got released all across the midlands to prey upon people at random, and can't be stopped except by the most brutal and badass dudes...

Never. loving. Seen. Again.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 19:16

30.5 Days: Nov 19, 2006

Pimpmust posted:

Does the "not harmed by normal weapons" include being chopped up but reforming like the god drat T-1000?
That aspect and the deadly poison saliva made the Darkhounds real nasty (and cool). Can't outrun them, can't hide and can't kill them (unless you happen to be a rather specifically powerful and skilled walking nuke/demigod).
Good luck

There's a lot of cool stuff in WoT, but no T1000 poo poo from the darkhounds. They're an ordinary sort of fantasy-hard-to-kill, in that you either can't damage them at all or they keep coming long after you'd expect them to. Their super-healing is not often featured (it's rarely featured because darkhounds are mooks to the ultra-powerful main characters except in the first few books so you rarely see the same one fight twice).

# ? Oct 28, 2014 19:22

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

thespaceinvader posted:

I'd forgotten all about Heart Hounds. Mostly because this is the ONLY loving TIME THEY COME UP.

These things that got released all across the midlands to prey upon people at random, and can't be stopped except by the most brutal and badass dudes...

Never. loving. Seen. Again.

I seem to recall this happens with some regularity. He realizes he oversold X so he just doesn't write about it ever again.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 19:22

claw game handjob: Mar 27, 2007; pinch pinch scrape pinch
ow ow fuck it's caught
i'm bleeding
JESUS TURN IT OFF
WHY ARE YOU STILL SMILING

thespaceinvader posted:

I'd forgotten all about Heart Hounds. Mostly because this is the ONLY loving TIME THEY COME UP.

These things that got released all across the midlands to prey upon people at random, and can't be stopped except by the most brutal and badass dudes...

Never. loving. Seen. Again.

Hahaha, I was going to save that reveal for the end of WFR but yes, I actually double checked, they never appear again in the novels. In fact, someone's going to reinvent the loving heart hound later under a different name.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 19:24

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

The thing with the objectivist doggerel is, you must realize it's an extremely convenient excuse. After all, it sets down a worldview where all those rear end in a top hat tiny plants keep stopping you from becoming the incredible tall tree captain of industry you're supposed to be! Thus, there's no contradiction in being a believer and not being fantastically successful in all things; it's not your fault, it's those stupid parasites keeping you down. If they and government and all of it was removed you'd be the kickass feudal industrialist godking you were meant to be.

I have a brother who fell hard for all this crap and still hasn't recovered, so this Objectivist bullshit is personal for me.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 19:37

TheSmilingJackal: Apr 30, 2007; Don't worry, it's a very heavy feather.

Oh man, I read these books in high school. Or most of them anyway, until I gave up around book six or seven maybe? I look back on this series like an abusive relationship. It was really great at first but at the end I was just hoping the the good times would come back- now that I'm out I realize even the "good" times were full of red flags.

I took a lot of things in fiction at face value when I was younger and even now I have trouble seeing analogies, so the whole fire ban = gun control thing flew right over my head. Thanks for showing me that Darkseid!

I look forward more insight into Dick Cipher's adventures in Rape: The Rapening.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 20:07

alarumklok: Jun 30, 2012

I managed to eat up Star Wars EU poo poo like it was Shakespeare when I was a wee lad, yet I couldn't get past like the 5th book in this series. Even at the age of 12 (aka everything is great at 12), I felt like the fucker couldn't stop preaching, and the rapey stuff was creepy. You're a pretty bad author if you can't hook in a 12 year old.

As for heart hounds/darkhounds, they're just hellhounds recolored. It's an old trope.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 20:38

Pimpmust: Oct 1, 2008

30.5 Days posted:

There's a lot of cool stuff in WoT, but no T1000 poo poo from the darkhounds. They're an ordinary sort of fantasy-hard-to-kill, in that you either can't damage them at all or they keep coming long after you'd expect them to. Their super-healing is not often featured (it's rarely featured because darkhounds are mooks to the ultra-powerful main characters except in the first few books so you rarely see the same one fight twice).

You sure? Been awhile since I read it but I can recall at least one scene were someone goes choppy on one and it starts to reform itself from puddles, possibly around book 4-5, perhaps one of the last actual combat encounters with them? Could have been the translation I read that made it unclear I guess.

e: Found the chapter, it's Rand cutting 3 down in Rhuidean with some sweet kung-fu sword moves when he discovers them turning into pools of liquid darkness, with their jell-o blood splatter streaming together before reforming.

Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Oct 28, 2014

# ? Oct 28, 2014 21:41

30.5 Days: Nov 19, 2006

Pimpmust posted:

You sure? Been awhile since I read it but I can recall at least one scene were someone goes choppy on one and it starts to reform itself from puddles, possibly around book 4-5, perhaps one of the last actual combat encounters with them? Could have been the translation I read that made it unclear I guess.

I looked on the internet and I guess this happened in rhuidean once? If it's the fight I'm thinking of I thought that was one of the bubbles of evil thing at the time, idunno.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 21:45

30.5 Days: Nov 19, 2006

Like the specifics aren't important, because in the books the darkhounds are so resilient that it's considered okay to use basically the magical equivalent of the atom bomb on them (balefire). Like balefire is so dangerous that satan was willing to negotiate a nonproliferation treaty for it, but it's okay to use it on darkhounds.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 21:49

Pimpmust: Oct 1, 2008

I think it's an ability they "pick up", that the Super Turbo version Darkhound 2.0 displays later on in the books. Not every darkhound gets it and I don't think it's ever explained what's the difference is or were it came from, because at least one character (in the know) comments on the ability being new?

It only happens 2-3 times before the Darkhounds kinda drop out of the books entirely for a very long stretch, probably because the number of characters that can run into them and *win* is pretty drat small and pulling out the "lolnope"-fire would get stale.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 21:50

Dr.Magnificent: Dec 24, 2007; Comes with hands on care.; Fun Shoe

DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:

WHY DID YOU LEAVE A CHUNK OF MAGIC AROUND THAT WAS DESIGNED TO DO NOTHING BUT CONVERT A COLOR INTO POISON OH MY GOD

The best part is there is an explanation for this, and like every question about wizards/magic users in this series it boils down to wizards being real dumb.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 22:38

theshim: May 1, 2012; You think you can defeat ME, Ephraimcopter?!?

You couldn't even beat Assassincopter!!!

I'm pretty sure this has already been posted in this thread but

# ? Oct 28, 2014 22:48

malkav11: Aug 7, 2009

alarumklok posted:

I managed to eat up Star Wars EU poo poo like it was Shakespeare when I was a wee lad, yet I couldn't get past like the 5th book in this series. Even at the age of 12 (aka everything is great at 12), I felt like the fucker couldn't stop preaching, and the rapey stuff was creepy. You're a pretty bad author if you can't hook in a 12 year old.

As for heart hounds/darkhounds, they're just hellhounds recolored. It's an old trope.

Early on there's some pretty cool (or at least vivid) concepts being thrown around and the ludicrous "message" is more veiled. Hell, if he'd stopped with this book (which is pretty standalone), I probably would have continued to regard it fondly for years to come. Unfortunately, as you say, he got preachier and preachier about utter nonsense (at the time I didn't have the grounding to know it as objectivism but I could tell that Jagang & co were thinly veiled Communist straw men) and pretty creepy with the sex stuff too...not that that stuff wasn't on display already.

I confess what finally turned me off the series, though, was the book Pillars of Creation, where literally none of the main characters of the series even appear until the last, oh, 10% of the book. I was already feeling like the series was dragging on and that was the final straw. I might eventually have gone back when it "finished", but by then I'd found out Goodkind was a raving nutbar and the whole thing was essentially propaganda and no longer felt the need to subject myself to more.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 00:13

TheSmilingJackal: Apr 30, 2007; Don't worry, it's a very heavy feather.

malkav11 posted:

I confess what finally turned me off the series, though, was the book Pillars of Creation, where literally none of the main characters of the series even appear until the last, oh, 10% of the book. I was already feeling like the series was dragging on and that was the final straw. I might eventually have gone back when it "finished", but by then I'd found out Goodkind was a raving nutbar and the whole thing was essentially propaganda and no longer felt the need to subject myself to more.

That was it! This was the last book I read. At the end of it Dick breaks a rule about how magic works, with the reasoning that "that rule was stupid and I'm awesome" and I finally washed my hands of the whole mess. I put up with rape camps and evil chickens only for Goodkind call his own world building asinine and the people who went along with it morons. :argh:

... which is true. :arghfist:

# ? Oct 29, 2014 00:53

Nihilarian: Oct 2, 2013

TheSmilingJackal posted:

That was it! This was the last book I read. At the end of it Dick breaks a rule about how magic works, with the reasoning that "that rule was stupid and I'm awesome" and I finally washed my hands of the whole mess. I put up with rape camps and evil chickens only for Goodkind call his own world building asinine and the people who went along with it morons. ... which is true.

PoC was also the last book I read, too. Still have the books that came after it, never read them.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 01:10

MissKeewi: May 19, 2013

TheSmilingJackal posted:

Oh man, I read these books in high school. Or most of them anyway, until I gave up around book six or seven maybe? I look back on this series like an abusive relationship. It was really great at first but at the end I was just hoping the the good times would come back- now that I'm out I realize even the "good" times were full of red flags.

I took a lot of things in fiction at face value when I was younger and even now I have trouble seeing analogies, so the whole fire ban = gun control thing flew right over my head. Thanks for showing me that Darkseid!

I look forward more insight into Dick Cipher's adventures in Rape: The Rapening.

Haha, this is a great analogy, I feel exactly the same way.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 01:48

omnibobb: Dec 3, 2005; Title text'd

I read the first 3 or 4 of these books when I was younger. I didnt know a thing about objectivism and would swear the first two were good before it just got boring. Reading the thread and knowing about objectivism know, this thread is just a delight.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 01:52

claw game handjob: Mar 27, 2007; pinch pinch scrape pinch
ow ow fuck it's caught
i'm bleeding
JESUS TURN IT OFF
WHY ARE YOU STILL SMILING

Let's wake back up with Richard and company. Is Richard still a goon?

quote:

Richard watched Kahlan's body sway as she rode, her shoulders moving to the horse's rhythm. He wished he could take her to places he knew of in the Hartland Woods, secret places of beauty and peace, far back in the mountains, show her the waterfall he had found, and the cave behind it, have lunch by a quiet forest pond with her, take her into town, buy her something pretty, take her someplace, any place, where she would be safe. He wanted her to be able to smile without having to worry every minute if her enemies were getting closer. After last night, he felt that the first part, his fantasy of being with her, was just an empty wish.

Yes.

Anyway, Chase's route brings them right next to the boundary, so he decides to give Richard an object lesson by nearly killing the Seeker of Truth in one instant.

quote:

With the next step the green sheet of the wall changed suddenly. "Far enough," Chase said, his voice echoing. The wall had become darkly transparent, as if Richard were looking into a deep pond in the dark woods. Chase stood still, watching him.

There were forms on the other side. Inky black shapes wavered in the gloom on the other side of the wall, specters floating in the deep.

The dead in their lair.

Something closer and faster moved nearer to them. "The hounds," Chase said.

Richard felt an odd sensation of longing. Longing for the blackness. The humming wasn't a sound, he realized, it was voices.
Voices that murmured his name. Thousands of distant voices called out to him. The black shapes were gathering, calling to him, holding their arms out to him.

He felt a sudden, unexpected stab of loneliness, felt the solitude of his life, of all life. Why did he need the pain when they were waiting, waiting to welcome him? Never alone again. The black shapes drifted closer in the gloom, calling to him, and he began to see their faces. It was as if he were looking through murky water. They came closer. He longed to step through. To be there with them.

And then he saw his father.

Richard's heart pounded. His father called out to him mournfully in a long sorrowful cry. His arms thrust out, trying desperately to clutch for his son. He was just beyond the wall. Richard's heart felt as if it were going to rip with yearning. It had been so long since he had seen his father. He wailed for him, hungered to touch him. He wouldn't have to be afraid ever again. He had only to reach his father. Then he would be safe. Safe. Forever.

Richard tried to reach out to his father, tried to go to him, tried to step through the wall. Something was holding his arm. Irritated, he pulled harder. Someone held him from his father. He screamed for whoever held him to let go. His voice sounded hollow, empty.

Then he was being pulled away from his father.

His anger roared to life. Someone was trying to drag him back by his arm. In a rage he grabbed his sword. A big hand clamped over his with an iron grip. Screaming in unrestrained fury, he struggled mightily to free the sword, but the big hands held tight, dragging him, stumbling, from his father. Richard struggled, but was hauled away.

Please remember, until TWO DAYS AGO, Richard kept his anger in check all his life, and now he's nearly mowing motherfuckers down for a ghost.

quote:

Kahlan turned to Chase in a fury, slapping him across his face as hard as she could.

"You bastard!" she screamed. "Why would you do that to him!" Throwing all her weight into it, she slapped him again, her hair tossing across her face. Chase didn't try to stop her. "You did it on purpose! How could you do that!" She swung at him a third time, but this time, he grabbed her wrist in midswing.

"Do you want me to tell you or do you wish to go on hitting me?" She jerked her hand away, glaring at him, her chest heaving. Some of her hair was stuck sideways across her face. "Going through Kings' Port is dangerous. It isn't straight through; it twists and turns. Some places it's very narrow, the two walls of the boundary almost touching. One step either way and you're gone. You've been through the boundary; so has Zedd. You both understand. You can't see it until you start in, otherwise you don't know where it is. I only know because I've spent my life out here. It's even more dangerous now because it's failing, even easier to walk through it. When you get in the pass, if something started chasing you, Richard could run into the underworld without even knowing what it was."

"That's no excuse! You could have warned him!"

"I've never had a child yet who had the proper respect for fire until they put their hand in it once."

Reminder: Chase is the only person in the series with any surviving children to their name. THIS IS HIS PARENTING STYLE. Speaking of fun surprises that I forgot came from Chase, anyone who's read the books before is about to groan:

quote:

"Richard is right," Chase said. "And we have to get to Skow Swamp before nightfall, before the heart hounds come out. It's the only safe place between here and Southaven. We'll reach Southaven before tomorrow night and will be safe from the hounds there. The next day we will go see a friend of mine, Adie, the bone woman. She lives near the pass. We need her help to get through."

Before we can find out why this sucks, Chase and Zedd are rendered unconscious by a tentacle beast on the other side of the boundary. Richard and Kahlan strap them to horses and head for the swamp, because what the hell other plan do they have?

quote:

Kahlan stroked Zedd's forehead. "It is not a good sign for a wizard's eyes to be closed like this. I don't know what to do for them."

That's not relevant at all, I just find it loving hilarious. Wizards sleep with their eyes open, to a man. This is a real detail about this world.

One chapter and one dull night later, the party reaches Southaven, which is basically your typical "rough fantasy town". I don't even need to copy the description. You already know where this is going. There are barfights and everything is a rough looking joint and the town has no healer, most likely because people just up and die in fights rather than needing one.

quote:

"Expensive-looking whore you got there, boy," the red-haired man said. "I don't suppose you'd mind if we came up to your room and passed her around some?"

Richard locked his glare on the man. He knew this was a challenge that would only be ended with blood. His eyes didn't move. His hand did�slowly�toward the sword. His rage pounded, fully awake even before his fingers reached the hilt.

This was the day he was going to have to kill other men.

A lot of other men.

Richard's grip tightened around the braided wire hilt until his knuckles were white. Kahlan gave a steady pull on the sleeve of his sword arm. She spoke his name in a low tone, raising the inflection at the end, the way his mother did when she was warning him to stay out of something. He stole a glance at her. She gave a luscious smile to the red-haired man.

"You men have it all wrong," she said in a throaty voice. "You see, this is my day off. I'm the one who hired him for the night." She smacked Richard on the rear. Hard. It surprised him so much he froze. She licked her top lip as she looked at the red-haired man. "But if he doesn't give me my money's worth, well, you will be the first I call to fill the breach." She smiled lasciviously.

There was a thick moment of silence. Richard resisted mightily his need to pull the sword free. He held his breath as he waited to see which way it was going to go. Kahlan continued to smile at the men in a way that only made his anger deepen.
Life and death measured each other in the red-haired man's eyes. No one moved. Then a grin split his face and he roared with laughter. Everyone else hooted and hollered and laughed. The man sat down and the men started talking again, ignoring Richard and Kahlan. Richard breathed out in a sigh. The proprietor eased the two of them back a ways. He gave Kahlan a smile of respect.

[the group makes their way to the room]

Richard paced while Kahlan sat on the bed, watching him, looking slightly uncomfortable. Finally, he strode over to her. "I can't believe what you did down there."

She stood up and looked him in the eyes. "The result is what matters, Richard. If I had let you do what you were about to do, your life would have been at great risk. For nothing of value."

"But those men think�"

"And you care what those men think?"

"No� but�" He could feel his face redden.

"I am sworn to protect the life of the Seeker with my own. I would do anything required to protect you." She gave him a meaningful look, lifting an eyebrow. "Anything."

Frustrated, he tried to think how to put into words how angry he was without making it sound as if he was angry with her. He had been at the brink of lethal commitment. A brink only one wrong word away. Pulling back was agonizingly difficult. He could still feel his blood pounding with the lust for violence. It was difficult to understand the way the anger twisted his own rationality with hot need, much less explain it to her.

"Richard, you have to keep your mind where it belongs."

The innkeep knows Chase, tells them where to find Adie, and says he'll keep people away for the night. In return, Richard gives what's ALMOST helpful information:

quote:

Richard gave him a hard look. "If anyone comes through that door tonight, I will kill them, no questions asked."
Bill looked at him for a long moment. "I'll see what I can do to keep that from happening. Even if I have to knock some heads together." He went to the door. "Eat your supper before it gets cold. And take care of your lady, she has a good head on her shoulders." He turned to Kahlan and winked. "And a pretty one, too."

"One more thing, Bill. The boundary is failing. It will be down in a few weeks. Take care with yourself."

The man's chest rose as he took a deep breath. He held the doorknob as he looked into Richard's eyes for a long moment. "I'll come get you in the morning when the sun is up and it's safe."

Notice that he did not mention to the man living right on the edge of the boundary "This means Heart Hounds are going to run wild all over the place". That seems like a thing he might have wanted to know.

In fact, Chase should REALLY tell the other wardens that. Like. Immediately.

(Nobody is ever going to.)

# ? Oct 29, 2014 02:15

chiefnewo: May 21, 2007

I'm sure Chase would say if the other Wardens couldn't figure out the boundary was failing, they deserved to die anyway.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 04:13

President Ark: May 16, 2010

chiefnewo posted:

I'm sure Chase would say if the other Wardens couldn't figure out the boundary was failing, they deserved to die anyway.

This might've been glossed over or my memory might be fooling me, but I think part of why Richard's brother is regarded as such a dick is that he's pulled back the border wardens to guard him instead of, y'know, the angry rift into hell that forms their eastern border.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 04:52

claw game handjob: Mar 27, 2007; pinch pinch scrape pinch
ow ow fuck it's caught
i'm bleeding
JESUS TURN IT OFF
WHY ARE YOU STILL SMILING

He did for the party, I forget if it was a more permanent arrangement. I think Chase's comments made it sound like he did it as a display of power at his crowning.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 04:55

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 03:38

PJOmega: May 5, 2009

malkav11 posted:

I confess what finally turned me off the series, though, was the book Pillars of Creation, where literally none of the main characters of the series even appear until the last, oh, 10% of the book. I was already feeling like the series was dragging on and that was the final straw. I might eventually have gone back when it "finished", but by then I'd found out Goodkind was a raving nutbar and the whole thing was essentially propaganda and no longer felt the need to subject myself to more.

The lack of Richard & Kahlan was the only reason I was willing to give the next book a try. It was still horrible and I can't remember a thing from it but at least it wasn't King & Queen Deus Ex Machina.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 06:22

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Let's Read the Sword of Truth books! (Or not. Can we not?)

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