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ZombieLenin posted:Is it weird to anyone else the change in Katilian (audiobook so don't know the proper spelling) and Shadowthrone from book I? My take on it is this:(Vague spoilers for book 6? 7? second half of the series, anyway) We "know" that Ascending, for most people makes you more uncaring towards the little people and more sociopathic in general. Those that can hold on to some element of humanity (or whatever-ity) when they are offered that level of power are the exception, not the rule. The series is full of gods and other ascendants seeking revenge for petty poo poo when they should be looking at the big picture instead. So it's easy to see where Gotm Cotillion comes from, given this. The problem, from shadowthrone's perspective, is that Gotm Cotillion is kinda useless, because all throughout the series shadowthrone is shown as at least trying to look at the long term stuff and not the petty short term revenge stuff. So he needs some way to wake Cotillion up. So they hatch this revenge plan. Will they be using their hounds to take out the empress? Activating agents? re-uniting the old guard against her? Just killing her themselves? No, their plan is for Cotillion to possess some completely innocent girl from nowhere for years and somehow and sometime, she'll do something that'll let her get near the empress and kill her. Oh, and also they'll also make it completely obvious to the empire that this is what they've done. It is literally the stupidest plan and it cannot possibly succeed. So why do it? Because later in the series, someone (may even be Cotillion) mentions offhandedly that possession goes both ways. The mortal gets part of the god, BUT the god also gets part of the mortal. So Not-Apsalar becomes godlike enough that she even shocks Cotillion, but Cotillion becomes mortal enough to crack jokes and weep at the suffering of others. And Shadowthrone is portrayed as being easily smart enough that that was the actual point of the revenge plan. TL;DR: I don't think Shadowthrone ever did care about the revenge plan, but Cotillion did at one point, and that was the real reason for the "plan."
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Oct 27, 2014 17:54
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Habibi posted:Huh, I guess I forgot all about Kilmandaros' hand in that. Do you have a citation for the FA god being one they created themselves? After all the poo poo about invading races or whatever in the original series the Tiste being one of the original races is a huge shock, but does make the fact you can half/quarter Tiste more understandable, and like the Imass and Jaghut and everyone not Azathanai appear to have evolved. Not to say the Azathanai didn't but they're so much more powerful as to be gods to those races they're a bit different
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Oct 27, 2014 21:47
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Habibi posted:Huh, I guess I forgot all about Kilmandaros' hand in that. Do you have a citation for the FA god being one they created themselves? Much of that is admittedly only inferred, not outright stated, or stated as speculation. It's mainly based on a passage detailing the conclusions of Krissen, in chapter 17, page 540 (at least according to Kindle), combined with Draconus meetings with Olar Ethil (around p. 320) and Kilmandaros (p. 508). Specifically: 'She could not be certain, but she suspected that one of them had created the Jaghut. That another had answered in kind with the Tiste. Forulkan, Thel Akai, perhaps even the Dog-Runners, were all fashioned by the will of an Azathanai.' Of course, this is Erikson we are talking about, so Krissen could just be flat out wrong. But I can't think of anything offhand that would contradict her. And if she's right then those people I listed are the obvious candidates. As for the Forulkan god, Kilmandaros says that they don't worship her but 'have made illimitable law their god', and we know that worship actually creates gods in the Malazan world. See also this quote from Beak: 'That's the thing with the Just Wars - they never end and never will because Justice is a weak god with too many names. The Liosan called it Serkanos and the Assail called it Rynthan'
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Oct 27, 2014 22:38
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I always thought ascendancy magnifies your personality flaws to extreme levels.
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Oct 28, 2014 04:05
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amuayse posted:I always thought ascendancy magnifies your personality flaws to extreme levels. Well you become an immortal and one of the most powerful beings in existence. So sudden douchbaggary isn't a shock. It doesn't seem universal though. So far Paran does not seem to have been bitten by the ascendadouche bug yet. Maybe that changes.
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Oct 28, 2014 17:35
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amuayse posted:I always thought ascendancy magnifies your personality flaws to extreme levels. Power corrupts, but I think in most cases you may have it backwards in that it tends to be the egomaniacal bastards with pre-existing personality problems who more typically attain ascendancy, over their well-behaved, gentile peers.
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Oct 28, 2014 17:41
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Just finished reading through Bonehunters. - I don't really understand what happened with the giant meteor shower close to the end of the book. From what I gathered, all those jade giant statues plummeted to the ground for some reason and Heboric's final magic shield anvil powers saved everyone by absorbing the impact? - Laseen: is she being mind controlled by Korbolo Dom/Mallick Rel, and Tavore figured this out in their *wink wink nudge nudge* subtle conversation? I don't really plan on reading the ICE books and from what I understand this gets explained in RotCG or something. - Bottle's final mission: I have no idea what was going on with that doll. I figure we'll get more info on why he picked those people up later, but the way he went about it was confusing. There's a lot of stuff going on in these books. Looking forward to the Karsa/Icarium vs. Rhulad tag team brawl.
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Oct 28, 2014 20:29
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Habibi posted:Power corrupts, but I think in most cases you may have it backwards in that it tends to be the egomaniacal bastards with pre-existing personality problems who more typically attain ascendancy, over their well-behaved, gentile peers. My take as well using Paran as empirical evidence. Here you have a character forced into an ascendancy that he never would have sought for himself. So far (a couple hundred pages into Reaper's Gale) Paran has managed to hold on to his moral compass. In fact, I would argue that, while certainly irrevocably changes by his ascendancy and time with the Bridge Burners, Paran is still at his core the same guy who said "gently caress this" to what he viewed as Laseen and Adjunct Lorn's "unjust" machinations.
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Oct 28, 2014 21:42
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acumen posted:Just finished reading through Bonehunters. If I recall correctly it's hinted at in the book series without reading ICE's books. RotCG does explicitly state it though, so I could be misremembering. It fits within the narrative of the series that no one has "ultimate" power within their sphere - in this case she's been neutralized completely by the claw becoming corrupted by Mallick and turned against her - the offer she gives to Kalam to clean up the Claw and kill Mallick tempted him, but would have resulted in the death of Tavore iirc.
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Oct 28, 2014 22:45
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Habibi posted:Power corrupts, but I think in most cases you may have it backwards in that it tends to be the egomaniacal bastards with pre-existing personality problems who more typically attain ascendancy, over their well-behaved, gentile peers. I kinda felt it was supposed to be similar to the fatal flaws that many Greek heroes have.
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Oct 29, 2014 01:26
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Re: Icarium's other half In Reaper's Gale there is a scene where Karsa Orlong confronts Icarium on the streets Letheras. Karsa is intent on killing Icarium, but stands down when Icarium promises to let Karsa have the first crack at Rhulad. Later on there is a Karsa pov where he reveals he backed down because he could see Icarium is half Toblaki. So am I missing something?
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Oct 29, 2014 02:14
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ZombieLenin posted:Re: Icarium's other half No, you found the citation I was wondering about. So now the question is, who did Gothos play around with? Kilmandaros (I doubt it)? Just started MT and Gothos is just about the coolest customer in the series. Oh, an Elder God appears behind me, cool but nevermind, let me get on with this ritual and fixing this mess. Also, Osserc is pretty close to being the bullying object among the Ascendants. acumen posted:There's a lot of stuff going on in these books. Looking forward to the Karsa/Icarium vs. Rhulad tag team brawl. You will be disappointed but in a good way. Finished HoC yesterday, and I really like the whole twist with Onrack/The Whirlwind/Kilava. Kilava is still a bitch, considering both Pannion Domin and The Whirlwind are in some way due to her. As for HoC, it is really a middle book, tying up some loose ends and elaborating on the history for some of the characters.
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Oct 29, 2014 08:45
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Cardiac posted:Also, Osserc is pretty close to being the bullying object among the Ascendants. He almost always comes off as a moron so this is no real surprise
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Oct 29, 2014 11:12
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Cardiac posted:Just started MT and Gothos is just about the coolest customer in the series.
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Oct 29, 2014 15:47
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anilEhilated posted:Gothos is amazing and I wish we got more of him. One of my favorite bits of Malazan trivia about him, although I don't remember where exactly it's mentioned - you know Gothos' Folly, the big book of everything secret, magical unusual and philosophical that someone occassionally finds a couple of scrolls (from approximately several hundred) from? That was his suicide note. He also disproved Jaghut society. He gathered everyone up, gave a big speech on why everyone should stop being a part of a social culture, and they all just said, "huh, I guess he's right. I'll grab my stuff and wander into the woods forever." He's the ultimate goon: he won a debate on the internet and changed everyone's minds.
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Oct 29, 2014 17:29
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anilEhilated posted:Gothos is amazing and I wish we got more of him. One of my favorite bits of Malazan trivia about him, although I don't remember where exactly it's mentioned - you know Gothos' Folly, the big book of everything secret, magical unusual and philosophical that someone occassionally finds a couple of scrolls (from approximately several hundred) from? That was his suicide note. "He was not a modest man. Contemplating suicide, he summoned a dragon." (Gothos' Folly)- Gothos
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Oct 29, 2014 19:22
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What happened to the Jaghut who cursed a village after he got into an argument with his wife?
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Oct 30, 2014 01:38
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amuayse posted:What happened to the Jaghut who cursed a village after he got into an argument with his wife? jaghut wife came back and hosed him up.
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Oct 30, 2014 01:41
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Women. Am I right?
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Oct 30, 2014 07:20
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Gothos is the one that asked for a dead, white cat, correct?
pakman fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Oct 31, 2014 |
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Oct 31, 2014 03:44
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pakman posted:Gothos is the one that asked for a dead, white cat, correct? Nah, that was Raest.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:30
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It would be my nerdy wet dream to have the entirety of gothos' folly to read.
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Oct 31, 2014 06:17
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Re: Shadowthrone revenge plot from GoTm I just got to a point in [i]Reaper's Gale where Quick and ascended ghost Hedge have a conversation about Sorry. In that conversation it's eluded to that revenge against Laseen was never the motive for Cotillion's possession of Apsalar. Instead the true motive was likely to get Cotillion in the Bridge Burners and both into the eventual Letheras campaign. But the events of the previous books negates the possession and, as it turned out, the Bridge Burners as a mortal fighting force. I should note all of this is proposed by ascended ghost Hedge as speculation to QB; However, I thought it was interesting. Unrelated: since I've been "reading" these books in audiobook format first--with every intention of immediately going back and reading the print version when finished--I've never seen a lot of names spelled out. Imagine my surprise (I'm American) when I discovered that a character the British narrators call "APSALA" is spelled Apsalar. You crazy Brits and your swallowed Rs.
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Oct 31, 2014 14:16
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Woah, I just bumped into Steven at my local brunch place (Cabin 12 in Victoria). I used to see him writing in the coffee shop all the time but then he moved to England, I guess he's back in Canada. Anyway, he had some sci-fi book with him that he has just written, it had a freakin' space ship on the front and he said it was a "send-up of Star Trek." I haven't been keeping up with this thread but did you guys know about this? My mind is pretty blown and I am super excited to read this thing. edit: there it is, Willful Child http://www.tor.com/Steven%20Erikson
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Oct 31, 2014 21:59
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Turpitude posted:Woah, I just bumped into Steven at my local brunch place (Cabin 12 in Victoria). I used to see him writing in the coffee shop all the time but then he moved to England, I guess he's back in Canada. Anyway, he had some sci-fi book with him that he has just written, it had a freakin' space ship on the front and he said it was a "send-up of Star Trek." I haven't been keeping up with this thread but did you guys know about this? My mind is pretty blown and I am super excited to read this thing. One of the worst things about ebooks: it's hard to get them autographed. I still have a copy of a book signed by Anne McCaffrey. (Don't judge me.)
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Nov 1, 2014 02:32
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Ok, blew through Dust of Dreams. A bit of a grind that ended with some massive out of nowhere HOLY poo poo. One question though, what the hell is the deal with the Shake? They were Tiste Andii who lived at the border between Galain and Thyrllan, then ended up in Lether after the fall of Kharkanas and interbred with the First Empire colonists, and also K'Chain Che'Malle somewhere along the way?
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Nov 1, 2014 10:08
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Tokelau All Star posted:Ok, blew through Dust of Dreams. A bit of a grind that ended with some massive out of nowhere HOLY poo poo. the answer for interbreeding with K'Chain Che'Malle is totally unironically: nano-machines. K'Chain Che'Malle nano-machines. Che'Malle nano-machines have a insane half-life apparently and can stay alive almost anywhere. Even in the sea. Some of the earlier Malazan books mention tiny weird fish-lizard things washing up on certain sea-coasts + messing around with the DNA of things that lived on those sea-coasts. That is how the Shake got scaly/Che'Malle infested. Similar Che'Malle nanomachines rebuilt/reactivated the Kalse Uprooted Che'Malle flying fortress & the Che'malle drone Sulkit throughout the Icarium plotline in Dust of Dreams. quantumfoam fucked around with this message at 11:37 on Nov 1, 2014 |
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Nov 1, 2014 11:31
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As for their origins, the Book of the Fallen seems to offer the interpretation you have there, but FoD complicates it. A lot. I'd say the origins of the Shake are one of the things the next two books could elaborate upon.
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Nov 1, 2014 15:30
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Getting to the end of Reaper's Gale and the book seems to be ending with a whimper--not that I'm complaining too much. This has been bothering me for awhile and the Karsa/Rhulad confrontation was just the exclamation point. With the number of times heads and limbs come clean off in the books (and in real life I suppose) nobody has accidentally removed either Rhulad's head or sword arm in all his "deaths?" I mean if I were a champion and new this guy came back to life after you killed him, I would use the minute or so it takes him to reanimate to sever all his loving limbs and his head. Edit Re: ending with a whimper It just seems, despite all the fighting the Marines do in the book, both Letheras and the Edur fold really quickly. I understand how the collapse of capitalism (let's not pretend that this isn't exactly what Letheras represents) would quickly lead to social unrest; however, the army in such situations often stays loyal because they're the only not ones still getting paid, plus if there is the social tradition of service and loyalty, the breaking of the military (internally) should take a little longer than 3 days. Also, the Edur put up with chaotic magic and a complete breaking of their ways (I.e. Social traditions) to follow Rhulad. There is a reason that religious converts are usually more devout and loyal. By breaking with your past you are all loving in and there usually isn't any going back. So I was left scratching my head when all the Edur pick up and leave. This is especially true because book after book we are told that Letheras has conquered and corrupted the Edur. If this is so, I expect some of the Edur would be unwilling to leave their new empire and lives of excess. And I'm also confused that of the important Edur (the Overseer for example) who think they can make positive changes in the lives of those in the Empire nobody stays. Every single Edur listens to the Warlock King (an already divisive person to the Edur) and heads on back to the villages. Including the ones in the field with the army. The book (and I'm not quite finished) seems to rapping up a bit too neatly, at least too neatly for what Erickson has so far led me to expect. All of the important likable characters are unambiguously saved/succeed, all of the characters who are unlikable die, Letheras falls to the Marines alone during tea time, the frozen God is stopped, etc. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Nov 1, 2014 |
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Nov 1, 2014 19:05
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Ynglaur posted:One of the worst things about ebooks: it's hard to get them autographed. I still have a copy of a book signed by Anne McCaffrey. (Don't judge me.) Something about your reply flew over my head, like a cusser flying into a sandstorm, and I am not seeing the connection here. That said, I have a bunch of signed books by George Martin that I feel guilty about owning at this point. Now that Steven Erikson is back in Victoria I am gonna keep my little early edition Korbal + Bauchelain hardcover in my car in case I see him again so he can sign it. Paid a stupidly large amount of money to order it from Amazon back in the day.
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Nov 1, 2014 19:26
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Turpitude posted:Something about your reply flew over my head, like a cusser flying into a sandstorm, and I am not seeing the connection here. That said, I have a bunch of signed books by George Martin that I feel guilty about owning at this point. Now that Steven Erikson is back in Victoria I am gonna keep my little early edition Korbal + Bauchelain hardcover in my car in case I see him again so he can sign it. Paid a stupidly large amount of money to order it from Amazon back in the day. I had every Robert Jordan book penned by him alone autographed and in storage. I was paying the storage fees via automatic payment, but changed banks and failed to remember to change the payment. By the time I remembered (it was probably 3 months) I called the storage place and the nice lady says, "oh, sorry. We sold your unit last Saturday." So I'm done collecting author signatures.
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Nov 1, 2014 19:29
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ZombieLenin posted:Getting to the end of Reaper's Gale and the book seems to be ending with a whimper--not that I'm complaining too much. I assumed Letheras kept most of the army and it's best officers on the frontiers of the empire and in whatever colonies they had and between the Malazan tactics, the infighting amongst all the Letherii high authority types around the capital and the chaos caused by all the converging powers at that point made it easy for the Mlazans to roll right in once the huge magical defenses were taken out. The Edur were generally unmotivated to band together and fight wars, as well as having that Tiste tendency towards ennui and mopiness, until the Warlock King got em riled up and then Rhulad usurped his power and war of conquest. Most of the Edur seemed to lose their sense of purpose and motivation once they defeated the Letherii Empire and became it's ruling class. Rhulad sent lots of the warriors on those missions partly due to this. Most of them were disillusioned with the whole Letherii way of life imo. I think the Warlock King knew this, knew they'd be very receptive to going back, and took advantage of it. The important Edur had no motivation to stay in the Empire, working towards their goals, once they knew their people are going home and the Empire has new non-Edur rulers.
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Nov 1, 2014 20:19
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Turpitude posted:Woah, I just bumped into Steven at my local brunch place (Cabin 12 in Victoria). I used to see him writing in the coffee shop all the time but then he moved to England, I guess he's back in Canada. Anyway, he had some sci-fi book with him that he has just written, it had a freakin' space ship on the front and he said it was a "send-up of Star Trek." I haven't been keeping up with this thread but did you guys know about this? My mind is pretty blown and I am super excited to read this thing. I was wandering around the book store today and saw this out of the corner of my eye. Bought it on the spot. I came home and started to look around for info about it, and it's surprisingly scarce. It's not even mentioned on his site. I had to go to a publisher's site to get a release date and it says Nov 2014? Did it just come out today?
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Nov 2, 2014 00:39
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Pokeylope posted:I had to go to a publisher's site to get a release date and it says Nov 2014? Did it just come out today? Comes out Tuesday (like most books) - somebody said "gently caress it" and put it out.
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Nov 2, 2014 00:55
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ZombieLenin posted:Getting to the end of Reaper's Gale and the book seems to be ending with a whimper--not that I'm complaining too much. quote:It just seems, despite all the fighting the Marines do in the book, both Letheras and the Edur fold really quickly. I understand how the collapse of capitalism (let's not pretend that this isn't exactly what Letheras represents) Not exactly. Lether is based on ancient Rome, and its collapse is a culmination of many factors that are fundamentally economic, but not necessarily capitalistic. quote:would quickly lead to social unrest; however, the army in such situations often stays loyal because they're the only not ones still getting paid, plus if there is the social tradition of service and loyalty, the breaking of the military (internally) should take a little longer than 3 days. quote:The book (and I'm not quite finished) seems to rapping up a bit too neatly, at least too neatly for what Erickson has so far led me to expect. All of the important likable characters are unambiguously saved/succeed, all of the characters who are unlikable die, Letheras falls to the Marines alone during tea time, the frozen God is stopped, etc.  Finish the book.
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Nov 2, 2014 04:41
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I'm just about to finish Midnight Tides. What's the consensus about continuing on? A reading order I saw for the series said move on to the Night of Knives, but others say just skip the ICE books.
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Nov 2, 2014 19:32
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Skip Night of Knives, it's poo poo. Honestly, I'd finish the Erikson books before moving on to Esslemont. You won't get them in chronological order but that's all over the place anyway and you'll avoid the schizophrenic quality skips. Honestly, the only reason I can think of for reading NoK is to find out why exactly does everyone hate ICE's POV characters so much.
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Nov 2, 2014 19:42
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Habibi posted:stuff I finished it last night, the only truly not perfectly resolved for the protagonists seems to be Trull dying and Rhulad getting consigned to oblivion. Other than that, everything is peachy given the goals and desires of the main protagonists. As for Letheras being based on Ancient Rome... Maybe tangentially. Erickson uses Tehol Beddict as a mouth piece for Marx's labor value theory. In addition, while Letheras isn't exactly your prototypical industrialized society, it certainly isn't an agrarian slave economy. I suppose you could argue that the system of indenture is a type of slavery, but that's not how ancient slave economies worked. In addition, a lot of attention is given to the intricate nature of the the Letharii financial system, the role of the banks, and the commodification of everything--including labor. None of this is Roman. Nor are the Letharii institutions really analogous to Roman institutions. There is no Senate, the role of religion is different, the army doesn't function the same. The only similarities I see is the Letharii don't have stirrups and they fetishize the First Empire. They don't even end up with an Emperor though until the Edur conquest. Edit They also have their version of Nubian auxiliary calvary. If anyone in this series is a stand in for Rome it's the Malazans. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Nov 2, 2014 |
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Nov 2, 2014 22:04
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This is what Erikson had to say about the Letheri Empirequote:This brings me, at long last, to my portrayal of the Empire of Lether starting in the fifth novel in the Malazan sequence, Midnight Tides. The reason this subject is on my mind is that, once again, I have been asked in a Q&A whether that empire and its political and economic system was intended as a commentary on the United States. Each time I am asked this question, my response is no. So, let’s take this as definitive: there were two major themes in that novel, the first being about siblings and the journeys made by two sets of three brothers, and the second being about inequity. http://lifeasahuman.com/2011/feature/steven-eriksons-notes-on-a-crisis-part-x-if-it-hurts-like-hell/ Nothing specific about what it's based on except that it's not a stand in for the US, but at least gives you some insight into what he was thinking
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Nov 2, 2014 23:10
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Willful child is good, btw Also this rules http://www.ebay.com/itm/Willful-Chi...S:B:SHOP:US:101
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Nov 3, 2014 01:11
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