|
MadDogMike posted:At least this time the White Council is gonna have trouble blaming Harry for THIS war considering he was dead when it started. Harry created the power vacuum that let the Fomor rise to prominence, so no, it won't be hard for the White Council to blame him  .
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 04:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 17:27 |
|
|
Something funny I remembered the other day. Harry makes a big deal about how Michael is a descendant of Charlemagne which is why he can be a Knight since he's got the blood of kings or some other nonsense. Well so does every other person of European ancestry in the world. Are we supposed to believe this is some kind of.. "magic" blood? I sure hope someone was fired for that blunder.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 05:18
|
|
|
Pwnstar posted:Well so does every other person of European ancestry in the world. I've always kind of assumed it's a bit of a  thing that Harry doesn't clue into
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 06:10
|
|
|
I think it's pointed out that pretty much everyone qualifies for the blood of kings. Might have been Jim on one of the reddit AMAs if it wasn't in a book.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 06:11
|
|
|
You goons need to stop talking about how characters can't contribute because of ~power levels~ like this is loving Dragonball Z.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 07:15
|
|
|
sirtommygunn posted:You goons need to stop talking about how characters can't contribute because of ~power levels~ like this is loving Dragonball Z. As the series has gone on though, its become a legitimate concern. Harry is going toe to toe with entities that could literally evaporate Butters or Murphy on the spot. This can be compensated for by clever writing and never letting the lower powered characters end up in a direct confrontation with a creature like that...but it really can't be handwaved away as not-a-problem.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 07:48
|
|
|
jivjov posted:As the series has gone on though, its become a legitimate concern. Harry is going toe to toe with entities that could literally evaporate Butters or Murphy on the spot. This can be compensated for by clever writing and never letting the lower powered characters end up in a direct confrontation with a creature like that...but it really can't be handwaved away as not-a-problem. No, it really, really, really, really doesn't. I have problems with Murphy and Butters, but the issues I have are based on their characterization, not their combat relevance. This would be the case in any setting, but it's esspeically true in Dresden Files because Butcher has gone out of his way, time and again, to expressly tell us that in his world Power Levels Don't Mean Jack poo poo. Leverage, Position, and Timing are everything. Even the most humdrum of pissant nobodies can drop someone way above their pay grade if they're smart about it. By thinking cleaver humans lack the ability to swing outside their weight class you're falling into the same hubris that has killed many of Dresden's supernatural adversaries. Look at Cold Days for a good example. loving Ace of all people comes closer to taking out Dresden (twice!) than anyone else on Maeve's team. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Oct 30, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 08:40
|
|
|
Skippy McPants posted:No, it really, really, really, really doesn't. I think we're both saying the same thing but from different angles. I completely agree that human inginuity will let them take on beings way way way more powerful than themselves...but never in a direct slugfest. My issue is that the more crazy batman-plans that a character has to put together to take someone on, the more strained the situation feels to me. So far Butcher has done a good job of it, but if every single book features a scene of Butters/Murph/Whoever having a crazy plan to take out SuperBaddies #456, it could very easily start feeling dull and deus ex machina-y.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 08:57
|
|
|
jivjov posted:I think we're both saying the same thing but from different angles. I completely agree that human inginuity will let them take on beings way way way more powerful than themselves...but never in a direct slugfest. My issue is that the more crazy batman-plans that a character has to put together to take someone on, the more strained the situation feels to me. So far Butcher has done a good job of it, but if every single book features a scene of Butters/Murph/Whoever having a crazy plan to take out SuperBaddies #456, it could very easily start feeling dull and deus ex machina-y. But Dresden, Molly or whoever among the more powered cast does the exact same thing. It has nothing to do with the relative power levels of various characters. The reason it strains the nerves with people like Murphy is that the Batman poo poo is all she does anymore. It's getting dull because the stakes don't matter when the character behind them has gotten stale.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 09:11
|
|
|
Skippy McPants posted:No, it really, really, really, really doesn't. It really does, though - When it hits the point where you're dealing with gods on a regular basis, there comes a point when no matter how clever you are, you can't do jack poo poo to them without some sort of an edge, and assuming that a deus ex machina will fall into your lap that could let you kill gods and outsiders every single time, when you're an ordinary human, is pretty silly. At this point, combat relevance IS a matter of characterization. Harry, being Harry, is in constant conflict with ludicrously powerful enemies, and there comes a point when bringing along his completely powerless friends to go slay eldritch abominations doesn't actually help him in the slightest and just gets them killed pointlessly. Presumably Harry would never want this to happen. He's fully aware how dangerous the poo poo he gets in is, The characters themselves do not know they have plot armor. The characters themselves don't walk into every situation assuming they can kill any horrific monster even without Harry's help with enough grit and gumption and some cleverness. How powerful something is DOES matter. Being clever doesn't do jack poo poo against something immune to bullets and knives and heavy objects and fire, and if you don't have some sort of magical trinket to help you, or know some secret weakness that they may well not have, well, I guess you're hosed. It may be a theme that even the lowliest of the low can take down the mighty and arrogant, but it doesn't go so far as to make it a given or to consider a random muggle and a Denarian on an equal playing field. Butters at least had Bob, which is honestly enough of an edge that you can see him taking on a lot of low and middle weight monsters, but it would have seriously been pushing it if he had started to kill outsiders/demons on a regular basis without becoming a Knight. It just seems silly to act like a character's characterization and their ability to fight are completely and totally unrelated in a book series with nonstop fighting. Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 12:09 on Oct 30, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 12:01
|
|
|
sirtommygunn posted:You goons need to stop talking about how characters can't contribute because of ~power levels~ like this is loving Dragonball Z. Isn't it?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 14:31
|
|
|
I've been wondering how age is going to impact some of these characters. I only have a rough idea of how much time has elapsed over the course of the series, but a quick google search shows there's 9 years between Dead Beat and Skin Game. That puts Butters at about 46. And I don't think we've ever been told how old Karrin is, but Harry estimated that Gregory Taggart was a decade older than Karrin, and he died at 43 in Summer Knight. That puts Karrin at, roughly, her mid-40's by Skin Game. I'm not saying these people are ancient or anything, but I'm 30 and already poo poo doesn't work the way it used to. Obviously Karrin still does a lot of training, and I'm sure Butters will start, but at some point it is going to start to strain credibility that these people are facing off against stronger and stronger foes without some kind of supernatural pick me up.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 14:44
|
|
|
I really don't understand why people fixate on power levels when we've heard from multiple sources that the elite of the elite can be killed by a goddamn sniper rifle bullet or carefully planted explosives or falling down some stairs. Where the immensely powerful winter ladies were killed by being stabbed or shot. Where a super-bigfoot augmented by a fallen angel was taken out by being squashed by a big rock. Yes, the characters involved are ludicrously powerful but Dresden is pretty consistent about not even the ludicrously powerful being immune to being in the wrong place at the wrong time for something entirely mundane to finish them off. This also is important because the same applies to Harry. He is always fighting above his weight class. The fact that he is a mage doesn't matter because he is not going to win straight-up fights in most situations and very often the trick he uses to win isn't about the fact he is a magic user but the fact that he's a dirty fighter or he has some quantity in his favor (which, yes, very often is a deus ex machina.) There's no particular reason to assume that even if Harry ascended to godlike status that he still wouldn't be getting his poo poo pushed in by double-gods and just barely surviving by dropping a cosmic Blue Beetle on their heads when they're gloating or something. Russad posted:I'm not saying these people are ancient or anything, but I'm 30 and already poo poo doesn't work the way it used to. Obviously Karrin still does a lot of training, and I'm sure Butters will start, but at some point it is going to start to strain credibility that these people are facing off against stronger and stronger foes without some kind of supernatural pick me up. I'd like to point out that we had Shiro, the Wise Old Asian Man, who was easily capable of fighting as a Knight of the Cross well into old age.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 14:46
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I'd like to point out that we had Shiro, the Wise Old Asian Man, who was easily capable of fighting as a Knight of the Cross well into old age. Russad posted:some kind of supernatural pick me up. I guess he's solved that with Butters (for 3 days, at least!), but Murphy kicking rear end and taking names just by sheer willpower is going to strain credibility. Even when she was essentially at her physical peak, something as "mundane" as a run of the mill werewolf completely outclassed her. The stakes are much higher now.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 14:53
|
|
|
When the wizard's friend - an ex-cop who trains with undead viking warriors but doesn't use a holy sword, vampiric powers, or magic spells like other characters - fights with a demon and doesn't get immediately killed... that's the point at which you feel like things have deviated from "believable"?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 15:14
|
|
|
AlphaDog posted:When the wizard's friend - an ex-cop who trains with undead viking warriors but doesn't use a holy sword, vampiric powers, or magic spells like other characters - fights with a demon and doesn't get immediately killed... that's the point at which you feel like things have deviated from "believable"? Suspension of disbelief man, its a fickle thing
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 16:12
|
|
|
Butters is a little more of a Mary Sue when you remember he's like 20 years older than "supermodel hot" Andi
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 16:26
|
|
|
Murphy will get a power upgrade when she dies and signs on for Odin.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 17:39
|
|
|
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I can't remember the last time Butters or Murphy were involved in one of these Dresden Vs God plots. They've both mainly been doing their small time street work gig with the remnants of the alphas since Dresden died that one time. Even this last book, Dresden brought Murphy along kinda because of her power level, and specifically put her out of harms way as much as he could. E: I mean besides the very last book I guess. Nemesis Of Moles fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Oct 30, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 18:08
|
|
|
Nemesis Of Moles posted:Maybe I'm missing something here, but I can't remember the last time Butters or Murphy were involved in one of these Dresden Vs God plots. They've both mainly been doing their small time street work gig with the remnants of the alphas since Dresden died that one time. Yeah, that's sort of the point in a way - they're getting shelved because because they can't really do diddly other than provide moral support. A lot of things can't even be hurt by a gun - when you're dealing with the nastiest supernatural monsters you kinda want at least a magical weapon of some sort. Not every situation's gunna have a big rock available to fall on them, especially if it didn't go exactly as you planned and you're attacked unexpectedly. Essentially it's more that Murphy is going to need some sort of magical powerup to stay relevant, especially since (as others have said) she's getting older now and she had trouble with poo poo much weaker than this in her prime.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 19:35
|
|
|
Kris xK posted:Murphy will get a power upgrade when she dies and signs on for Odin. And then picks up the Sword of Hope. Poor Sanya. You know that look Gard gets when she has foreknowledge of a warrior's fated death?. Callin' it now!
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 19:37
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:And then picks up the Sword of Hope. Poor Sanya. You know that look Gard gets when she has foreknowledge of a warrior's fated death?. Well, last we got word of Sanya was a grainy aerial photograph of him with radiation burns facing off against two Denarians in the Middle East, so at the very least he's going to be scarred the gently caress up next time we see him in a book.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 20:30
|
|
|
Wade Wilson posted:Well, last we got word of Sanya was a grainy aerial photograph of him with radiation burns facing off against two Denarians in the Middle East, so at the very least he's going to be scarred the gently caress up next time we see him in a book. Pretty sure radiation burns weren't mentioned at all.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 20:39
|
|
|
-Fish- posted:Pretty sure radiation burns weren't mentioned at all. A nuclear reactor was cracked apart with smoke and steam everywhere, if Sanya didn't suffer from radiation exposure, he's at least going to die of cancer later on.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 20:47
|
|
|
Unless, you know, God protects him.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 20:54
|
|
|
God is the ultimate Mcguffin
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 21:02
|
|
|
Wade Wilson posted:Well, last we got word of Sanya was a grainy aerial photograph of him with radiation burns facing off against two Denarians in the Middle East, so at the very least he's going to be scarred the gently caress up next time we see him in a book. I don't remember this. When did it happen? Was it just something said in passing at one point?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 21:07
|
|
|
Nemesis Of Moles posted:Unless, you know, God protects him. Or some sort of alien being that calls itself a god. I mean, he is agnostic if not outright atheist.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 21:10
|
|
|
ConfusedUs posted:I don't remember this. When did it happen? Was it just something said in passing at one point? Butcher, Jim (2014-05-27). Skin Game: A Novel of the Dresden Files (pp. 192-193). Penguin Group US. Kindle Edition. posted:“Those are from Iran,” Karrin said. “Gary says that they show a functioning nuclear power plant.” The images were obviously of some sort of installation, but I couldn’t tell anything beyond that. Sanya is facing off against two Denarians right in the middle of where the steam was being vented from a reactor that was trying not to go critical. I'd say some sort of radiation dosage is likely, if not outright radiation poisoning (assuming Sanya even survives that encounter). Some Pinko Commie fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Oct 30, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 21:18
|
|
|
Nemesis Of Moles posted:Unless, you know, God protects him. Shiro sacrificed himself because he was dying of cancer with less than a month to live, remember?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 21:20
|
|
|
Fried Chicken posted:Shiro sacrificed himself because he was dying of cancer with less than a month to live, remember? Yeah, cause it was Gods plan. When the knights show up in the books its always works out for the greater good. If Sanya gets cancer from fighting Evil in Iran, it'll be for some overall greater good reason, but I doubt that'll happen, it'd be just a tad too pointlessly grimdark for this series.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 22:09
|
|
|
Maybe Sanya also becomes an einherjar! Ditto Marcone!
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 22:12
|
|
|
And then gets infected with Nemesis!
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 22:36
|
|
|
Nemesis Of Moles posted:Yeah, cause it was Gods plan. When the knights show up in the books its always works out for the greater good. If Sanya gets cancer from fighting Evil in Iran, it'll be for some overall greater good reason, but I doubt that'll happen, it'd be just a tad too pointlessly grimdark for this series. It's also arguable how much exposure he'd actually get. IIRC, unless he was popping a squat on the reactor core or something this is more "he has an n% increased risk of cancer in the future" and less "bam! you get leukemia!"
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 22:44
|
|
|
I love how we went from "white mist, maybe steam." to Sanya was covered in radioactive steam burns.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 22:51
|
|
|
I'm about to finish the current series I've been reading (Mistborn) and was considering starting the Dresden Files next after hearing a lot of good things. It seems pretty episodic which is actually something I'd prefer for such a long series. I'm not a big fan of starting a huge series where I feel like it's the only thing I can read until it's done (e.g. the Wheel of Time series). Are the Dresden Files books that you can pretty easily put down and come back to as you please or do you end up feeling the need to just power through them? Thanks in advance for any opinions on this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 23:05
|
|
|
I read 10 volumes in 6 weeks. Even if you can't put it down, they're incredibly easy to get through. But each book has a lot of resolution.
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 23:28
|
|
|
Yeah Dresden is quite good in that respect. Aside from the last couple, once you finish a book you can walk away from the series for a while without feeling like you're missing something.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2014 23:33
|
|
|
Rygar201 posted:I love how we went from "white mist, maybe steam." to Sanya was covered in radioactive steam burns. Yeah, it wasn't explicitly stated, but given all the other times a cloud of steam has hosed someone up in the Dresden Files (or Harry had to call on winter to shield himself from it), I read it as "Sanya got burned" and the damaged reactor added the radiation bits.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 02:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 17:27 |
|
|
Pretty sure Harry could tell the difference between 'Sanya had his hair fall out/replaced with radioactive scalding' and 'Sanya shaved his head'. Though I could completely see Sanya walking into a reactor breach, and possibly even walking out again. Temporarily, anyway.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 03:36
|
|
