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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:edit: or at least don't put him under your protection in case he is lying about not killing Sara. Let the league kill him. Nah if Merlyn is right and Ras killed Sara then keeping him alive is the best way to get justice, which is a big deal to the super-hero types. Of course you run into the problem of how the hell do you get justice if the guy who trained the guy you can't imprison is the one who did the killin'.
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Oct 30, 2014 14:10
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MrFlibble posted:Nah if Merlyn is right and Ras killed Sara then keeping him alive is the best way to get justice, which is a big deal to the super-hero types. Of course you run into the problem of how the hell do you get justice if the guy who trained the guy you can't imprison is the one who did the killin'. technically Ras is the guy who trained the guy who trained Merlyn.
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Oct 30, 2014 14:22
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MrFlibble posted:Nah if Merlyn is right and Ras killed Sara then keeping him alive is the best way to get justice, which is a big deal to the super-hero types. Of course you run into the problem of how the hell do you get justice if the guy who trained the guy you can't imprison is the one who did the killin'. Have detective Lance put a bullet it him?
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Oct 30, 2014 14:28
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Mooseontheloose posted:Have detective Lance put a bullet it him? Thankfully Lance isn't a psychopath?
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Oct 30, 2014 14:43
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You also have to consider that the evidence against Merlyn is still entirely circumstantial. And for all the eye-rolling over "Oh, he SWORE it wasn't him so he's totally off the list"...honestly, why would he lie? Merlyn, like Oliver in his "Hood" days, is driven by his twisted sense of justice; he's only duplicitous when it suits his greater goal. In fact, if you look again at the first season, you'll notice there's a strong parallel between Oliver becoming The Hood and striking targets off his Dad's list, and Merlyn's Undertaking. Both are convinced that they're saving Starling City by doing things their way, and you can see why either man would think their plans would work. Both are also motivated by loss; for Oliver it's his father, for Merlyn it's his wife. Merlyn's plan may have been far more extreme, but he arrived at it following the same logic Oliver did. That's what Tommy's death actually represents to Oliver on a subconscious level: The Undertaking held a mirror up to what Oliver was doing, and he didn't like what he saw. He may not have gotten a "We're not so different, you and I" speech to spell it out for him (actually, he may have, but I don't remember), but on some level, he finally understood the true cost of what he was doing. He didn't adopt a no-kill policy just because  TOMMY WOULD HAVE WANTED IT THAT WAY ; it's because he knows all too well that "We'll just kill the bad guys" is a slippery slope that leads to good guys getting caught in the cross.Anyway, the point is that because Oliver has walked the same path that Merlyn has, he understands how Merlyn thinks. When he "swears" he didn't kill Sara and throws the shadow of doubt on Ra's, Oliver's train of thought is "He's an absolute motherfucker, but he's the kind of motherfucker that will tell you that he's been a motherfucker. If he killed Sara, there's a reason he's not telling me and I'd like to find out what that is. If he didn't kill Sara, and Ra's is responsible, I'm going to need his loving help." And of course there's that overriding irrational desire to not orphan Thea a second time, but Oliver's human and thus allowed to be irrational and even wrong.
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Oct 30, 2014 15:00
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DivisionPost posted:You also have to consider that the evidence against Merlyn is still entirely circumstantial. And for all the eye-rolling over "Oh, he SWORE it wasn't him so he's totally off the list"...honestly, why would he lie? Merlyn, like Oliver in his "Hood" days, is driven by his twisted sense of justice; he's only duplicitous when it suits his greater goal. Why are you guys focusing on THIS ONE TIME? Merlyn killed hundreds of people, then escaped then killed more people then escaped yadda yadda. Jesus.
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Oct 30, 2014 15:56
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Drifter posted:Why are you guys focusing on THIS ONE TIME? Merlyn killed hundreds of people, then escaped then killed more people then escaped yadda yadda. Jesus. I'm not sure who the more people he killed after the end of season 1 are- at least that Oliver would know about... And whether a bunch of viewers in the real world think he's a bad guy has nothing to do with whether or not it's reasonable for Oliver to act as he is acting.
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Oct 30, 2014 16:14
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Wow, the thread managed to rehash the old "Why doesn't Batman just kill the Joker" arguments again. Hooray. Oliver's nowhere near a breaking point where he'd even think about breaking his vows not to kill. He took down Slade MF'ing Wilson without having to kill - he's riding high. Not least because Oliver has turned off any sort of emotion he has about Sara's death, and we're heading towards him finally feeling the ramifications of her death sometime soon.
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Oct 30, 2014 16:15
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The only thing I thought was particularly dumb was "Don't turn me into the police, I can escape instantly". Well, Oliver, you know maybe turn him into the police anyway, maybe he'll escape but being a good karate (b)arrow man doesn't instantly get you out of Blackgate.
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Oct 30, 2014 16:19
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Uhhh is Hamlet unaware that ghosts aren't real? WTF are we really supposed to believe this?
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Oct 30, 2014 16:23
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greatn posted:The only thing I thought was particularly dumb was "Don't turn me into the police, I can escape instantly". Well, Oliver, you know maybe turn him into the police anyway, maybe he'll escape but being a good karate (b)arrow man doesn't instantly get you out of Blackgate. I mean this will always be a problem in comic book media. I am a super secret killer assassin who can escape at ease kinda puts super heroes in a tough position.
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Oct 30, 2014 16:30
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There's just so much awful dialog in this show, it's getting hard to stomach. "I didn't kill your Beloved!" sorry Barrowman, even you can't save that line. I think that's part of the problem we're having here: The story generally makes sense, but the dialog does such an awful job of presenting it that it makes it seem like nonsense. Oliver's attempt at explaining to Nyssa why she should take Malcolm at his word is the perfect example of that. As DivisionPost said, Oliver believes Malcolm because he understands how Malcolm thinks, because that's how Oliver used to think, but the dialog didn't get that across at all. There is a plot that makes sense, to be sure, but you have to actively fight against the show to find it. greatn posted:The only thing I thought was particularly dumb was "Don't turn me into the police, I can escape instantly". Well, Oliver, you know maybe turn him into the police anyway, maybe he'll escape but being a good karate (b)arrow man doesn't instantly get you out of Blackgate. There's also the consideration that it doesn't have to be black and white. He wouldn't escape from a supermax prison instantaneously. Getting him off the streets for a few weeks, or even days, would still be worthwhile. Same thing with the "your only options are to murder me or to let me go completely free  " BS. I know it's grisly but why couldn't Ollie cripple him somehow to try to make it a little harder for Malcolm to keep murdering people? They could come up with a good reason why Oliver doesn't want to do that, but as of yet they haven't addressed it.Just a minor complaint, though. Mostly I felt it made sense - Oliver's keeping him alive so he can track down Sara's killer. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Oct 30, 2014 |
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Oct 30, 2014 16:37
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Too bad he doesn't know about the metaguantanamo in Central city.
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Oct 30, 2014 16:38
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greatn posted:Too bad he doesn't know about the metaguantanamo in Central city. Yeah I was kind of hoping Felicity would walk in talking about how they were able to hold a guy who could literally turn into gas. I mean there's no need for Ollie to straight out murder the guy in cold blood but I'm disappointed that he didn't shoot him in the shoulder or break his knee caps unlike another suited hero.
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Oct 30, 2014 16:41
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Kegslayer posted:Yeah I was kind of hoping Felicity would walk in talking about how they were able to hold a guy who could literally turn into gas. Yeah, that's exactly what I was talking about. If he doesn't wanna kill him (for several good reasons) he could at least slow him down.
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Oct 30, 2014 16:43
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Camp X-Ray Vision... huh? Try the veal
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Oct 30, 2014 16:43
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greatn posted:Too bad he doesn't know about the metaguantanamo in Central city. I should probably go post in the Flash thread, but I want to wait a few more episodes and let the show get its feet before giving serious thoughts. The meta-guantanamo really bugged me. I feel like someone on that show should be asking "uhh hey do we actually have the right to imprison these guys? I mean I get from a technical perspective we have the ability to, but what makes us judge and jury aside from the fact that we're the very assholes who inflicted these conditions on these people?" It's a question that would be reasonable even on Arrow, and the characters on Arrow are far more jaded than Barry West and the ever-geeky Cisco.
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Oct 30, 2014 16:46
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Drifter posted:Why are you guys focusing on THIS ONE TIME? Why did you focus on that one paragraph? Oliver doesn't just want Merlyn alive, he NEEDS him alive.
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Oct 30, 2014 16:50
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Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:I should probably go post in the Flash thread, but I want to wait a few more episodes and let the show get its feet before giving serious thoughts. Well the only guy in there so far was already tried and convicted for murder and sentenced to be executed and the sentence was carried out, so he's actually getting off light.
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Oct 30, 2014 16:59
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greatn posted:Well the only guy in there so far was already tried and convicted for murder and sentenced to be executed and the sentence was carried out, so he's actually getting off light. Possibly true morally, but I feel like Barry Allen, CSI guy, should have some appreciation for due process even. I'd even have been fine with someone (even Barry) expositing that logic.
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Oct 30, 2014 17:06
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DivisionPost posted:Why did you focus on that one paragraph? Oliver doesn't just want Merlyn alive, he NEEDS him alive. Focused on the one because everything else is a studied attempt to force a rationale into a wrong theory.
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Oct 30, 2014 17:12
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Which begs the question, do they feed the gas guy? Does he have a toilet?
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Oct 30, 2014 17:23
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Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:Possibly true morally, but I feel like Barry Allen, CSI guy, should have some appreciation for due process even. I'd even have been fine with someone (even Barry) expositing that logic. Barry got the job he did so he could clear his dad, not because he cares about the law.
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Oct 30, 2014 17:28
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Aphrodite posted:Barry got the job he did so he could clear his dad, not because he cares about the law. Barry's one hosed up dude.
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Oct 30, 2014 17:29
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Sereri posted:Which begs the question, do they feed the gas guy? Does he have a toilet? Does Oliver feed Slade?
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Oct 30, 2014 17:30
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Aphrodite posted:Barry got the job he did so he could clear his dad, not because he cares about the law. I am sure that was a motivator, but he also grew up in a cops house.
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Oct 30, 2014 17:32
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I got the impression that it wasn't Malcolm's SUPER SERIOUS WORD OF HONOR that swayed Oliver, but his logical explanation of why it would have been loving stupid for him to kill Sara. Malcolm Merlyn is many things, but he ain't dumb. And I'm pretty sure that Oliver does not intend to just leave him running around in the long run. He's figuring out what Malcolm knows and trying to find a better way to deal with him, possibly involving ARGUS.
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Oct 30, 2014 17:34
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Spergatory posted:I got the impression that it wasn't Malcolm's SUPER SERIOUS WORD OF HONOR that swayed Oliver, but his logical explanation of why it would have been loving stupid for him to kill Sara. Malcolm Merlyn is many things, but he ain't dumb. Yeah because if there's one thing the entire history-plot this season should tell you, it's that Oliver is very trusting of Argus.
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Oct 30, 2014 17:35
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I like that both Ra's and Nyssa probably know Merlyn didn't kill Sara, but they're both pretending he did because they want him dead anyway.
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Oct 30, 2014 17:37
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Spergatory posted:I got the impression that it wasn't Malcolm's SUPER SERIOUS WORD OF HONOR that swayed Oliver, but his logical explanation of why it would have been loving stupid for him to kill Sara. Malcolm Merlyn is many things, but he ain't dumb. If I remember correctly when he met with the Wall last season her response was that someone must have overcome her on the list of people that Ollie wants to kill. Since Slade is in custody, I am pretty sure she is back to 1. I wonder if he is ever going to discover her role in the events of season 1.
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Oct 30, 2014 17:38
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bobkatt013 posted:If I remember correctly when he met with the Wall last season her response was that someone must have overcome her on the list of people that Ollie wants to kill. Since Slade is in custody, I am pretty sure she is back to 1. I wonder if he is ever going to discover her role in the events of season 1. ...Didn't he just do that this episode?
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Oct 30, 2014 17:41
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Aphrodite posted:...Didn't he just do that this episode? Must have missed that
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Oct 30, 2014 17:42
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Aphrodite posted:...Didn't he just do that this episode? Not only that but it was in the flashback - so hes known all along.
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Oct 30, 2014 17:46
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More than a day passed in this episode right? Did Nyssa only bring two outfits with her? The blue top and her assassin gear? That kind of stuck out to me. And there was a lot of them showing off just how fine Katrina Law is and I can't say I blame them.
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Oct 30, 2014 18:05
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XboxPants posted:There's just so much awful dialog in this show, it's getting hard to stomach. "I didn't kill your Beloved!" sorry Barrowman, even you can't save that line. I must disagree. Barrowman saves all the lines, even that one! My biggest quibble with this was Olliver apparently buying Merlyn's "you won't kill me and capturing me is pointless, nyah" argument and then telling Nyssa he was under Olliver's protection, but the discussion here has convinced me that it wasn't totally nonsensical. Arrow/Merlyn/Nyssa fight owned. I'm fairly convinced that Ra's had Sara killed and that Nyssa genuinely didn't/doesn't know, which could get interesting. It seems like they're setting up Ra's and the League as the season's big bads, but given the ARGUS stuff last episode and the Hong Kong flashbacks, I would expect they'll play into it one way or another too. Laurel bored the poo poo out of me in season 1 and most of season 2, but I'm totally on board with the character since she found out Ollie's the Arrow.
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Oct 30, 2014 18:20
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What we really need is a longer list of suspects than Merlyn & Ras.
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Oct 30, 2014 18:43
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I haven't caught up with the show yet (just finished S2), but I already heard Sara dies, and I'm not sure why everyone was expecting it to happen eventually. I haven't read a TON of Green Arrow, but I always thought the Black Canary he hooked up with was Dinah Lance - I didn't know a Laurel or Sara ever existed in the comics. Why is everyone sure Laurel will end up as the Canary? I had thought it was just a name change from Dinah to Sara, and I was kinda surprised she wasn't THE Black Canary.
Phenotype fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Oct 30, 2014 |
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Oct 30, 2014 18:48
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Phenotype posted:I haven't caught up with the show yet (just finished S2), but I already heard Sara dies, and I'm not sure why everyone was expecting it to happen eventually. I haven't read a TON of Green Arrow, but I always thought the Black Canary he hooked up with was Dinah Lance - I didn't know a Laurel or Sara ever existed in the comics. Why is everyone sure Laurel will end up as the Canary? I had thought it was just a name change from Dinah to Sara. Laurel's full name is Dinah Laurel Lance. That was shown on an ID or something really early on, before Sara was anything but somebody who died in the pilot. Until New 52, this was also the younger Black Canary's name who she's based on. Her mother, the original Canary, was Dinah Drake Lance. This character also exists on the show as Laurel's mother but she's obviously not a former superhero. New 52 changed stuff but the show doesn't care about that. She (presumably) goes by Laurel because Dinah is her mother's name. I don't think they've acknowledged that on the show but it makes sense. Apparently in the script Sara's line in the premiere, "Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world" was actually "Dinah Laurel Lance..." but I guess they changed it for airing. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Oct 30, 2014 |
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Oct 30, 2014 18:50
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Dead Snoopy posted:What we really need is a longer list of suspects than Merlyn & Ras. Thea. Phenotype posted:I haven't caught up with the show yet (just finished S2), but I already heard Sara dies, and I'm not sure why everyone was expecting it to happen eventually. I haven't read a TON of Green Arrow, but I always thought the Black Canary he hooked up with was Dinah Lance - I didn't know a Laurel or Sara ever existed in the comics. Why is everyone sure Laurel will end up as the Canary? I had thought it was just a name change from Dinah to Sara. I suspect you will have your answer ~3 episodes in to S3
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Oct 30, 2014 18:51
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Phenotype posted:I haven't caught up with the show yet (just finished S2), but I already heard Sara dies, and I'm not sure why everyone was expecting it to happen eventually. I haven't read a TON of Green Arrow, but I always thought the Black Canary he hooked up with was Dinah Lance - I didn't know a Laurel or Sara ever existed in the comics. Why is everyone sure Laurel will end up as the Canary? I had thought it was just a name change from Dinah to Sara. Comic book readers can't comprehend why the writers would deviate from their precious canon. Also, the show runners said so.
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