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Leperflesh posted:I don't think the temper/heat treatment matters at all for your application, so I think you're fine. My knowledge of steel metallurgy compared to aluminum is spotty at best so take this with a grain of salt but I believe annealing requires you to be into a region of the phase diagram that causes a phase change which, in the case of steel, is the austenitic range (the A3 line in this diagram) so more like 1400*F.  Also IIRC the color of the oxidation on steels is due to thickness of the oxide layer which is going to grow significantly differently depending on alloy and conditions...that chart seems pretty meaningless as a real world marker for that. Sorry if this came off all neg nancy its after work and I am a neg nancy.
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Oct 21, 2014 02:23
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Bad Munki posted:Ehh, it's not so much a washer as a bracket then, I guess? Ah, I get it. Not sure what to call that, but it's definitely under some biaxial stress. Bad Munki posted:they look pretty good. They look great! I would imagine that the nicely beveled edges are important for this application. Cool charts, thanks guys! I never got quite that deep into the metalurgy.
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Oct 21, 2014 13:28
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Squashy Nipples posted:They look great! I would imagine that the nicely beveled edges are important for this application. You bet! After I made them, I found them reeeaaally satisfying to just sorta roll around in my hand, a whole stack of 'em, I think it's the satisfying heft they have, so I smoothed up the edges to enhance the experience. 
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Oct 21, 2014 16:36
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The small bit of metallurgy I've gleaned from blacksmithing is especially handy for when truthers bust out "jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel".
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Oct 21, 2014 17:26
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I had absolutely hoped never to see one of those graphs again in my life.
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Oct 21, 2014 20:18
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Jeherrin posted:I had absolutely hoped never to see one of those graphs again in my life. Because you hate useful things?
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Oct 22, 2014 01:42
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CarForumPoster posted:My knowledge of steel metallurgy compared to aluminum is spotty at best so take this with a grain of salt but I believe annealing requires you to be into a region of the phase diagram that causes a phase change which, in the case of steel, is the austenitic range (the A3 line in this diagram) so more like 1400*F. You are absolutely right and I should not have used the word "annealing" there. Rather, heating a tempered piece risks altering the temper, and doing it in an uncontrolled way can give you unpredictable results. Annealing is as you say heating enough to convert the metal to austenite. The color chart is used by blacksmiths to visually judge when to quench a piece while heat tempering it. It has been used for centuries to that purpose and is remarkably accurate, when working with ordinary carbon steel. If you are working with some other alloy, then it is no longer useful for that. Steel sold as "mild steel" or "wrought iron" is basically just iron and cannot be heat-hardened (although you can use a carburizing process...), but the colored oxidation on the surface still tells you a little about how hot it got.
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Oct 22, 2014 01:49
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Is there any way to get particularly low-carbon hot-rolled steel sheet? Not real-deal wrought iron, just the most ductile steel possible. I know the steel sheet they use in transformers and the like has almost no carbon but it does have silicon which kinda defeats the whole ductility thing.
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Oct 22, 2014 05:01
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Ambrose Burnside posted:Is there any way to get particularly low-carbon hot-rolled steel sheet? Not real-deal wrought iron, just the most ductile steel possible. I know the steel sheet they use in transformers and the like has almost no carbon but it does have silicon which kinda defeats the whole ductility thing. How thick? Steel has the naming format of ZYXX with the XX being 0.XX% carbon. Many (most?) metal supplier have retail store where they sell drops. If you go to a metal supplier and get whatever the lowest % carbon steal they have is, it'll in general be the most ductile.*** ***theres a million caveats to this but oh well it's pretty true I think most bars/thicker sections of steel, even low carbon, contain silicon as part of the deoxidation process. (A cursory search leads me to believe up to 0.6%) Again I think, but am not sure, silicon would be in solid solution in ferrite in the common concentrations which shouldn't greatly effect the mechanical properties, like adding carbon does. Not my area of expertise though. EDIT: A different thing I read says silicon will increase strength in low carbon steels so I dont know. Also apparently it makes it lovely to machine because it messes around with size/shape of sulfide inclusions. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Oct 22, 2014 |
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Oct 22, 2014 05:41
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All the brick and mortar places I know of limit their hot-roll selection to bog ol A36, which has a fair bit of carbon for mild steel. Kinda answered my own question because onlinemetals carries A366 sheet with very little carbon and not too much manganese, although it's cold-rolled. If I had a little kiln to anneal with I bet I could use it for shallow repousse and the like.
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Oct 22, 2014 06:30
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Related - I've been trying to find iron wire for making some more authentic maille, anyone know of an alternative use for it? I have found some at a craft supplier being sold as iron wire, but I don't know if they just mean steel. I have a theory that Iron makes a better maille because the ductility allows the rings to deform and stretch where steel rings would snap. I'd like to test it but hosed if I can find any iron wire.
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Oct 22, 2014 09:24
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If the alloy composition isn't specifically listed it's almost certainly mild steel, pure or almost-pure iron is very much a specialist alloy nowadays. You can get pure iron wire from science suppliers but their prices make it a nonstarter- Goodfellow lists their prices and the best price break for 1 mm wire is $441 Canadian for 200 metres. Actual pure iron isn't desirable anyways because it's too reactive- the silica slag in wrought iron acts as a rust inhibitor.
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Oct 22, 2014 18:10
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ReelBigLizard posted:Related - I've been trying to find iron wire for making some more authentic maille, anyone know of an alternative use for it? I have found some at a craft supplier being sold as iron wire, but I don't know if they just mean steel. I have a theory that Iron makes a better maille because the ductility allows the rings to deform and stretch where steel rings would snap. I'd like to test it but hosed if I can find any iron wire. Let's look at properties. Wrought Iron has a yield strength somewhere in the 159-221 MPa range and an elastic modulus of 193 GPa. Bog standard 1018 mild steel has a yield strength of 370 MPa and a modulus of elasticity of ~ 205 GPA. So what's Ductility? It's the material's ability to deform under tensile stress. IT'S STRESS STRAIN CURVE TIME.  It looks like this chart only goes up to Ultimate tensile strength, which is where necking begins. It's still useful to note that while wrought iron has a longer curve, it's lower. The strain energy, which is the area under the curve, is the energy absorbed by the material. It looks like mild steel can absorb slightly more energy than the wrought iron or about the same. It's my opinion that any gain in energy absorbed isn't worth the upkeep of wrought iron. Those being more deformed links, rust like a mother fucker (assuming you use a stainless wire like a sane person that wants pretty armor), and a plain weaker product. E: Also, that graph is not to scale, wrought iron has about 25% ductility compared to mild steels 15%, but it's about half as strong on average. TL;DR: There's a reason wrought iron is generally considered obsolete, in armoring it's considered obsolete more so because armor is obsolete, it may provide a slight advantage in prolonged engagement, but steel is top dog for singular strikes. Samuel L. Hacksaw fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 23, 2014 03:53
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Thanks for the info, that's an interesting graph.Random Number posted:It's my opinion that any gain in energy absorbed isn't worth the upkeep of wrought iron. Those being more deformed links, rust like a mother fucker (assuming you use a stainless wire like a sane person that wants pretty armor), and a plain weaker product. This is a false assumption  I'm actually interested in making more authentic maille and studying the durability of it compared to the current steel products, which tend to lose a lot of rings where (I think) the wrought iron might have just deformed slightly. The advantage, however slight, in prolonged engagement is precisely what I want to study.This is, for now, entirely academic. I'm not looking to make more than a couple of small sheets for testing. The rate of oxidation over mild steel would also be interesting to test. Maybe it's time to find some scrap iron and try drawing some wire from it 
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Oct 23, 2014 10:58
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CarForumPoster posted:Because you hate useful things? No, because it reminds me of university and, dear God, I hated the materials classes (not helped by incredibly poor tutors...) That being said, once I'd got my head around how the drat things work, it was pretty fun to mess about with different heating/cooling rates, then snap the metal and look at the crystalline structure.
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Oct 23, 2014 18:24
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I think it's worth mentioning that one of the reasons wrought iron has been abandoned is just that the modern blast furnace method for smelting iron does not produce the silica inclusions that lend "true" wrought iron it's unique properties. As a result, there is an active market for recovered true wrought iron. Mild steel is often called "wrought iron" in marketing, such as for "wrought iron" fences, railings, fireplace stuff, etc. It's also a term sometimes used just to mean a steel object that has been worked physically, e.g., forged as compared to cast metal.
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Oct 23, 2014 20:34
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Other than looking for major rust damage, anything I should keep an eye out for when looking at this setup? http://kpr.craigslist.org/grd/4728924928.html
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Oct 24, 2014 07:31
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I like turtles posted:Other than looking for major rust damage, anything I should keep an eye out for when looking at this setup? http://kpr.craigslist.org/grd/4728924928.html Don't let rust bother you that much, honestly. If you're working outside, poo poo is gonna rust, most of our tools are made of thick enough metal that a little rust won't affect performance. Make sure the anvil isn't cast iron or too broken, chipped, or cracked. Check the thread on that vise's screw, should have a little grease at least and no rust on there. Make sure it closes flat, no V shape visible in the jaws when you tighten it up. If the blower is hand cranked, make sure the gears are in good shape and spin fairly freely. There should be an oil neck on the gear box, it should still be present and have the dust cap door (think a tractor's exhaust pipe flap in miniature). No holes or cracks in the fan housing. That said, most of these problems can be fixed or worked around, use them to negotiate the price as much as you can. Not the anvil though, if it's junk, I would pass on the rest. See if you can get that grate table with it, those are handy for working with scrolls and such. E: I actually don't see a blower in there. It's either electric, which is good, or nonexistent, which isn't great, but they're not hard to find. Slung Blade fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Oct 24, 2014 |
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Oct 24, 2014 22:29
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Slung Blade posted:Don't let rust bother you that much, honestly. If you're working outside, poo poo is gonna rust, most of our tools are made of thick enough metal that a little rust won't affect performance. There's an electric blower on there (you can see the switch for it on the right side next underneath the main body of the furnace), called and talked to the guy today, going to go check it out in an hour and a half. Older fellow, gave me classic directions to his house, not just an address like most people do nowdays, assuming that you use google maps/etc. Seems like he's getting out of the hobby and just threw his setup up on craigslist for some number he picked out of thin air - based on pricing around here a decent anvil is worth $300+ alone. I'm a little worried about the forge, may have to go back tomorrow with a couple guys and/or get a trailer if I need to get it into the bed of my truck and keep it upright. Thanks for the advice though I'll keep an eye out for all those things. I was eyeing the grate table too, I'll ask about it.
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Oct 25, 2014 00:33
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Got the setup as is, got it home easily enough too. The anvil is cast iron, BUT he welded a 1" thick chunk of inconel to the top, so the work surface seems pretty solid. I may upgrade anvils at some point, but this should do just fine for a starter setup I think, and the price was right. Oh god what do I do now? Do I just use lump charcoal? Do I use coal? Do I use coke? I know where to get charcoal, but where do I get coal or coke? Does Home Depot have such things?
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Oct 25, 2014 02:51
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I like turtles posted:The anvil is cast iron, BUT he welded a 1" thick chunk of inconel to the top, so the work surface seems pretty solid. lol god drat congrats, if you accidentally drop your monstrous jet engine alloy anvil into a blast furnace or active volcano caldera you can work on it without having to wait for it to cool e: IRT fuel, coal is energy-dense and highly insulating and burns very hot and coke has unique properties that let you do some really cool stuff, but also hard to find and sometimes expensive and oh yeah it's terrible for your lungs and skin and clothing (sulfur dioxide in coal smoke turns to sulfuric acid when it combines with water, who knew). Charcoal is cheap-to-free and very clean-burning and can do anything you can do with coal, but it's also a poor insulator (you need a far deeper bed to do stuff like welding and heats the workspace much more), burns very quickly and therefore needs frequent stoking, and is frustratingly light which makes small economical fires difficult 'cause even a light blast will just blow your charcoal all over the place and out of the firebowl. I mostly did stuff with charcoal, because it's what I had available and what worked with a primitive pipe-forge without a proper ash cleanout, but I enjoyed coal a whole lot when I had access to it at a real forge I took a weekend course at. Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Oct 25, 2014 |
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Oct 25, 2014 04:34
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Wrought Iron you say? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zBcQROsfS0 Who needs a blast furnace when you have 200lbs of charcoal and 50lbs of limonite.  (I'm the retarded guy talking about the axe post chopping (it was my axe since Mark forgot his))
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Oct 25, 2014 04:53
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Well, I just finished my first major stick welding metal project, a bookcase to replace an old one in our home "library". The frame is 20x3mm angle steel, with 3mm brackets on the corners. The "rivets" are actually big blobs of stick weld, because gently caress trying to find round-head rivets in NZ. The wood shelving is rescued from an old pallet. I rusted the surface with vinegar & mustard, then clear-coated it to seal it from rusting further, & from rubbing off on stuff. I'm pretty happy with how it came out, seeing as I have only a cheap-rear end Chinese hobby stick welder & a small bit of level garage floor...    
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Oct 25, 2014 06:22
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i finally 'got' raising in class today and have something resembling an actual bowl now 
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Oct 30, 2014 04:27
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Does anyone know if clock gongs are made from a specific type of metal or does it matter? I'm talking specifically about a style which is a strip of metal wound into a spiral. I'm asking because I want to make one, it's not for a clock.
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Oct 30, 2014 07:54
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Is it a spring? If it's a spring, it's probably made of spring steel. Which is just mid-carbon steel, like 1020 to 1080 or so, something in that range.
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Oct 30, 2014 09:11
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Ambrose Burnside posted:i finally 'got' raising in class today and have something resembling an actual bowl now I feel your pain. Raising looks like crap and then all of a sudden you have a bowl. I hated it at first and now I am actually starting to understand the approach I need to take to get the shapes that I am making.
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Oct 30, 2014 11:27
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Leperflesh posted:Is it a spring?  Spring steel is not necessarily a low alloy steel and while they are typically in that range that is a very very big range. 5160 and 1095 are both fairly common but outside this description. You are right that its probably a spring and that it matters.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:34
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I thought I was getting somewhere TIG welding steel, I've fixed a few cracks for folks in non-essential / non-life threatening applications but aluminum TIG welding is seriously kicking my rear end. I've re-watched a ton of videos, cleaned the poo poo out of the AL with pristine stainless brushes and acetone and my welds look like poo.
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Oct 31, 2014 05:31
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Hu Fa Ted posted:I thought I was getting somewhere TIG welding steel, I've fixed a few cracks for folks in non-essential / non-life threatening applications but aluminum TIG welding is seriously kicking my rear end. I've re-watched a ton of videos, cleaned the poo poo out of the AL with pristine stainless brushes and acetone and my welds look like poo. Pics?
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Oct 31, 2014 06:18
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Holy gently caress how do you weld inconel plate to cast iron? That is some next level poo poo. Not to mention, but, WHY? That much inconel could have bought him a great all steel anvil. Probably a huge one at that. Brand new. Regarding aluminium chat, I would try skipping the stainless brushes, stick with scotchbright pads (the non soapy kind) and make double sure your welder is set to AC output.
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Oct 31, 2014 16:51
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Slung Blade posted:Holy gently caress how do you weld inconel plate to cast iron? That is some next level poo poo. You have to preheat the poo poo out of the cast iron with a rosebud, just like you do with stainless and aluminum. You'd get better results brazing the plate on, but it still requires a hefty preheating.
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Oct 31, 2014 18:45
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Leperflesh posted:Is it a spring? It doesn't work like a spring, it's struck by a little hammer to make the donging sound in old clocks. Best name I've found for it is a spiral gong.
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Oct 31, 2014 19:00
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CarForumPoster posted:Pics?   I was really surprised by how much different aluminum is from steel when tig welding. The first pic is my first semi-successful puddle, the second is my first successful bead with filler material. The second one I kept messing with and just kept drinking so that's why it looks like a pile of crap (well that and I don't know what I'm doing.) Luckily I don't work on anything important  This does give me a deep appreciation for professional welders though.
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Oct 31, 2014 19:20
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Kasan posted:You have to preheat the poo poo out of the cast iron with a rosebud, just like you do with stainless and aluminum. You'd get better results brazing the plate on, but it still requires a hefty preheating. Yeah, but unless you're grinding out huge bevels, the best you're going to do is a small joint area on the outside of the plate, with a big void pocket in between the body and the plate. Unless it was forge welded on like in the old days. In which case, I say again how?. And also why? I wonder if it was actually a plate. Maybe it was inconel hardfacing rod? I could definitely see that working. Does inconel rod exist? Never looked.
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Oct 31, 2014 22:01
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Slung Blade posted:Holy gently caress how do you weld inconel plate to cast iron? That is some next level poo poo. Maybe he got it for freezy at work? I wanted a technical answer to your question of how and heres the best I got: Nickel-Base Alloys to Steels. Nickel alloys can easily be welded to steels using a suitable filler metal and proper control of dilution. Nickel-base filler metals are generally used because of their good ductility and tolerance of dilution by iron. Suggested nickel-base filler metals for welding nickel alloys to steel or stainless steel are listed in Table 23. from Table 23 N06600 INCONEL 600 COVERED ELECTRODE LCS: ENICRFE-2, ENICRFE-3 SS: ENICRFE-2, ENICRFE-3 Sulfur and phosphorus in nickel and nickel alloys cause hot cracking. The melting techniques used to produce nickel and its alloys are designed to keep the content of these elements to low levels. By contrast, the sulfur and phosphorus contents in some steels are typically higher. Consequently, dilution should be carefully controlled when joining a steel to a nickel alloy with a nickel alloy filler metal, to avoid hot cracking in the weld metal. Most nickel-base weld metals can accept a substantial amount of iron dilution, but the dilution limit generally varies with the welding process. Weld metal deposited with nickel- or nickel-chromium-covered electrodes can tolerate up to approximately 40% iron dilution. With bare nickel or nickel-chromium filler metals, however, dilution should be kept to about 25%. Acceptable limits of iron dilution for nickel-copper weld metal vary, depending on the weld process. With SMAW, iron dilution of up to about 30% can be tolerated. Submerged arc weld metal should not be diluted by more than 25%. With the gas-shielding processes, nickel-copper weld metal is less tolerant of iron dilution, especially if the weld is to be thermally stress-relieved. The maximum limits for iron dilution in a welded joint are 10% when it will be used as-welded and 5% when it will be stress-relieved. A buttering layer of nickel or nickel-copper weld metal should be applied to the steel face in order to avoid exceeding these limits. Nickel-copper weld metal has a maximum dilution tolerance for chromium of about 8%. Consequently, nickel-copper filler metal should not be used to join nickel-copper alloys to stainless steels (see Table 23). EDIT: I took this from a metals handbook, their reference is: DISSIMILAR METALS, WELDING HANDBOOK, 7TH ED., VOL 4, AMERICAN WELDING SOCIETY, 1982, P 514-547 You could probably find more and better up to date info in the current version of that book CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Oct 31, 2014 |
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Oct 31, 2014 22:05
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Well that's interesting. Also interesting that it's something common enough to need a textbook entry for. Would not have expected that. Still though, inconel on cast iron? it's about as close to the best lipstick on a pig analogy that I've ever seen. Except the pig is three months dead and the lipstick is made with gold metal flake.
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Oct 31, 2014 22:43
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CarForumPoster posted:Maybe he got it for freezy at work? Cast Iron and Steel don't exactly react the same when being welded due to carbon content differences. And you can easily braze an entire plate to a surface on an anvil. That's what a rosebud is for. You can heat both the base and the plate enough to get the braze to take. If we're talking an anvil, that's a hell of a lot of heat and fuel however and isn't practical with out a kiln.
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Oct 31, 2014 23:12
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Actually I'm not 100% sure it's inconel - he said something that sounded very similar, and google suggested inconel. What he actually said was something more like incatel but that doesn't seem to be a thing. Any clue? All I can tell is that the work surface is very definitely a different material than the rest of the body.
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Nov 1, 2014 00:44
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I like turtles posted:Actually I'm not 100% sure it's inconel - he said something that sounded very similar, and google suggested inconel. What he actually said was something more like incatel but that doesn't seem to be a thing. Any clue? All I can tell is that the work surface is very definitely a different material than the rest of the body. I've sometimes heard people erroneously refer to any metal alloy produced by Kennametal just as "kennametal." It's a long shot, but that's the only idea I have.
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Nov 1, 2014 02:02
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