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Burkion posted:Why the gently caress are you guys throwing around so many bad Masters and leaving out Derek Jacobi? Yeah, that is my bad. Jacobi needs to be a part of any Multi-Master story. Hell, they could use it to explain why he ran away. And why he was a robot companion to the Doctor one time. No joke, if they referenced that, I would love it.
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Nov 2, 2014 04:26
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Burkion posted:I'm saying this as a writer ... One thing the Master has been above all else is in love with himself. A self loathing master who hates that she's a woman would be not only a super gross character, but a super dumb character who's nothing like the Master. And forget all that- even if it's a huge part of his character (it's not), women are entirely capable of being really sexist, without being self loathing. Sometimes they even do it by spitefully adopting feminine/flirty traits they think 'sexless feminists' or whatever would disapprove of! More often it's simply in the form of tearing down other women in sexist ways to promote themselves. Sexism is rarely PUA style hatred of women. It's usually a form of traditionalism. "A woman's place has traditionally been..." etc. Missy is indeed emphasizing her traditionalist views of gender by calling herself Mistress instead of Master.
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Nov 2, 2014 04:27
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Doctor Spaceman posted:It was. Same. The first time it showed up on a single door I went, "Oh, now I get it." This was a weird episode since two-thirds of it were spent on building up the Master's scam. And taking that at face value, I hated it. Tonally it just didn't fit with Doctor Who. Then it turned out to be a giant con game with backed up brains and virtual reality (how convenient for Doctor Who that the most common touchstone in popular culture for virtual reality used the same name for it's system as they did). Once I connected the Cybermen to the problem I realized that there was a deeper game being played. Since I was expecting Missy to turn out to be Time Lord (and most probably the Master), I thought it odd when the Doctor touched her chest and didn't comment on anything. They even said "heart" singular several times in that scene. It seems a bit a of cheat afterward since all the things that should be screaming Time Lord right that moment are pointing to the contrary. Also, I guess Cybermen have no plastic in them. 
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Nov 2, 2014 04:34
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egon_beeblebrox posted:Yeah, that is my bad. Jacobi needs to be a part of any Multi-Master story. Hell, they could use it to explain why he ran away. And why he was a robot companion to the Doctor one time. No joke, if they referenced that, I would love it. Jacobi has played The Master & The Doctor (sorta), I just realized that, even though I listened to Deadline just last week.
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Nov 2, 2014 04:34
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Fun episode despite that downer of a beginning. Missy being the Master is pretty awesome and I'm cool with it.  Zaggitz posted:Here's a speculation quote from the spoiler on thread august 25th, from yours truly.  Well done. For a minute or two there I wondered if she was maybe a future regeneration of The Doctor because of the two hearts "and both of them yours" thing but it turns out she was just stating how much of a time lady boner she has for 12.
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Nov 2, 2014 04:34
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McGann posted:You've lost me with the robot companion bit, and google is no help. I'm guessing from the wiki article that it's from Scream of the Shalka? It's a reference to Chameleon, whose storyline was a bit of a mess.
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Nov 2, 2014 04:35
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Random Stranger posted:It's a reference to Chameleon, whose storyline was a bit of a mess. Kamelion* I've seen The King's Demon but no other stories with him in it. I know The Master gets control again, does he take on his image as well? edit: Ok, I had to look it up and found this bit of hilarious cheese instead quote:[Kamelion later] had a child with the Doctor's TARDIS (PROSE: The Reproductive Cycle)
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Nov 2, 2014 04:38
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Cliff Racer posted:Coming off of watching a bunch of Delgado stuff relatively I'll say that its a total failure in copying his flamboyancy. Missy comes off as being very stiff and obnoxious while he came off as powerful and mysterious. I don't know if that was down to bad acting, bad directing or, most likely, bad writing but thats how it felt. It's not possible to be cooler than sitting in the back of a Bentley in a silk suit smoking a fat cigar and hypnotising a Chinese soldier. You have to go back to Dr No to be that kind of classy villain. So no, copying was out. She's not meant to be classy, she's meant to be insane and calculating and ultimately foolish and she's doing a darn sight better than Simm's Master (and that was definitely the fault of the writing). Why do I have a bad feeling about dream patches?
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Nov 2, 2014 04:40
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Burkion posted:If this is the Master, and I have only the slightest of doubt that it is, then she shouldn't be embracing her new-found gender, instead she should be reviled by it. Throwing the odd put down of the failing of her own form, have some self loathing and amplify her inherent flaws when it comes to her opinions of the female sex. So what, she should dyke it up a bit? Wear men's clothes and speak with a deep voice and yell about misgendering when someone calls her a woman?  I think that while we're seeing this through the lens of a loving insane Time Lord, it may be an opportunity to see how a different, non-human culture looks at gender and sex roles and moving between them. It could be interesting to say the least, though of course people will be projecting human standards on the situation so it's a big ol' can of worms.
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Nov 2, 2014 04:42
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Well, that episode was certainly a gigantic creepy infodump with a couple of great reveals (okay, three, the bit where the Doctor revealed Clara hadn't actually thrown away the keys was great, too). It's hard to really evaluate it without the second part. But Missy being the Master is adequate pay-off, I think. I like how Missy convinced the Doctor she was a robot just for shits and giggles.  And the Doctor's reaction to the reveal was pretty much Capaldi's best acted moment so far. The death of Danny Pink was really well done. That shot of Clara in the street panning around to see it empty with a memorial thing in the background impressed me. Also the episode was a big SKELETON PARTY. Shame the skeletons are wearing Cybermen suits. Should've just been a bunch of evil Harryhausen style fightin' skeletons.
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Nov 2, 2014 04:45
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Eiba posted:Holy poo poo, you're more hosed up than Moffat with regards to gender if you think this is a good idea. God drat. I am using misogynist for a reason- not sexist. It is to emphasize something about the Master that is often glossed over and forgotten by fans, but ever present in his character. For all of the gloss the Master has, for all of the class he presents, for all of the likability he can bring- the Master is a horrifying person. The Master, at the core of his soul, is a seething pit of hate that would gladly lash out at everything and anything that is not in his ideal- even himself, when he was a corpse. Most of the time, that ugliness, that hate, is hidden away behind all of his layers, he can present that front, keep up the illusion. The Doctor sees through it generally, understands what he is, but rarely does he let the mask fully slip. Except he does from time to time, revealing himself to be nothing more than a psychopathic murderer, insane to the point where none of his schemes would accomplish much more than killing a lot of people. His blatant and obvious sexism only belies how deep that vein also runs. The only thing he loves is himself, and when he sees imperfection in himself, he rails against it- he did not glorify his undead form, after all, and detested his state as a man without regenerations. This is why the Master should have a subtle self loathing right now, a quiet bitterness about what she currently is because to the Master this is an imperfection, a flaw. And he'd be obviously a right loving nutter to think so, but this is also the man who inadvertently slaughtered OVER A THIRD OF THE UNIVERSE and didn't bat a loving eyelash at it. He's not exactly some one you're supposed to sympathize with in any regard at any time for ANY reason. The Master is only right by accident, and generally quickly changes his tune to be wonderfully wrong once more. Astroman posted:So what, she should dyke it up a bit? Wear men's clothes and speak with a deep voice and yell about misgendering when someone calls her a woman? I never said that. I said to have it be the BACKBONE of her character- she'd still identify as a woman because that is what she is now, and that is a flaw in her eyes- but regardless she is still the same Time Lord, and she is still the same Master. The self loathing should be, much like most of the Master's truly nasty and horrific character traits, buried to work correctly. Burkion fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Nov 2, 2014 |
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Nov 2, 2014 04:49
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Oh hey, one more thing about this episode. Will Moffat ever stop remaking Troughton stories?  McGann posted:Kamelion* There's only two stories, that one and Planet of Fire. I'm sure you know the unfortunate history behind the character but for the two people posting here that don't, the character was an elaborate puppet that one person knew how to operate and that person was killed in an automobile accident. As a result, Kamelion (thanks) was shelved after the first story he appeared in until they wrote him out essentially a full season later. That second story is, to put it mildly, confusing as hell and seems mainly to exist to try to wrap up as many things as possible even if they don't make a lot of sense. Random Stranger fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Nov 2, 2014 |
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Nov 2, 2014 04:57
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They really could have toed the line carefully with the afterlife business, but I love that Moffat went full blown "no, gently caress you, your dead loved ones are suffering lol".
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Nov 2, 2014 04:57
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ewe2 posted:It's not possible to be cooler than sitting in the back of a Bentley in a silk suit smoking a fat cigar and hypnotising a Chinese soldier. You have to go back to Dr No to be that kind of classy villain. So no, copying was out. She's not meant to be classy, she's meant to be insane and calculating and ultimately foolish and she's doing a darn sight better than Simm's Master (and that was definitely the fault of the writing). Aside from her big plan she's acted the part of a giggling imbecile and its hard to take giggling imbeciles seriously. Even if they have godlike power I don't generally find them threatening.
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Nov 2, 2014 05:01
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Geokinesis posted:I hope Missy doesn't get 'killed' off, as Michelle Gomez is pretty cool and fits the role. Agreed. Maybe they can keep her "regeneration" as a recurring villain. I liked how the logo of 3W and the door windows are Cyberman eyes.
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Nov 2, 2014 05:02
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Yeah, the Master's always been a sexist git. I said as much earlier. He's convinced of a very narrow-minded worldview that includes ridiculous notions of gender-essentiallism. As Gomez!Master says, she's old-fashioned. But what are the 'old-fashioned' Gallifreyan beliefs about cross-gender regeneration? It's clearly a long-established and not-too-rare concept, based on the Sisterhood of Karn's blase attitude towards it in Night Perhaps those "old fashions" oblige people to fully re-align themselves with their new bodies - a particularly idiosyncratic and bizarre form of transphobia. I wouldn't put it past the High Cloisters of Gallifrey to incubate such bonkers beliefs. So in deference to the Old Ways, the Master comes out of their regeneration, instantly engages in a particularly stupendous feat of cognitive dissonance, and engages in some decidedly unique mental gymnastics about gender-essentialism and comes out Very Female. Maybe. We've only had this version of The Master on-screen for MAYBE ten minutes, total. Her character isn't yet fully established.
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Nov 2, 2014 05:02
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Slimy Hog posted:I just watched it and I haven't gone through the thread yet so I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but after the last "production error" turning into a plot point (Matt Smith's coat) I noticed that Clara had a sleeping patch on her left hand in the volcano scene when she placed her right hand on The Doctor's neck. I'm too lazy to screenshot it, but it's there. It's on her left hand in the over-Clara's-shoulders scenes only, hopping back onto the right hand in all the other examples. Screams 'Production Error' to me.
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Nov 2, 2014 05:03
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MisterBibs posted:It's on her left hand in the over-Clara's-shoulders scenes only, hopping back onto the right hand in all the other examples. Screams 'Production Error' to me. I could have sworn it was on her left hand in a shot with the camera facing her. I'm going to look into it and post a screenshot. I'm usually slow on these things, so I'm standing my ground  I'm probably wrong
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Nov 2, 2014 05:08
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DoctorWhat posted:Maybe. We've only had this version of The Master on-screen for MAYBE ten minutes, total. Her character isn't yet fully established. This is the main reason why above both of my posts on the matter, a huge blade with the words IF should rest. Because if The Master just keeps on calling herself the Master, most of my potential problems with her character would be out the window. Because seriously just call her the Master, otherwise make her a totally new character you gits.
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Nov 2, 2014 05:08
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Oh, and was anyone else hoping the Doctor would just shrug, snap his fingers, and walk in the TARDIS after Clara threw away the last key?
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Nov 2, 2014 05:09
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At this point I would really love it to all be a dream. That way we can keep the fact that the story is going pretty well so far without having to deal with the annoyingness of having sex change regenerations and a new, annoying female Master floating around. But I honestly don't know how they do that without including, in some sense, the whole season as a dream (perhaps just a retelling of events in Clara's mind?) and that would be very weird.
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Nov 2, 2014 05:10
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Pretty sure she's gonna be The Master from now on, the whole Missy thing was just to hide her identity from the viewer.
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Nov 2, 2014 05:10
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Slimy Hog posted:I could have sworn it was on her left hand in a shot with the camera facing her. I'm going to look into it and post a screenshot. I'm usually slow on these things, so I'm standing my ground  You're probably right
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Nov 2, 2014 05:11
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Astroman posted:Oh, and was anyone else hoping the Doctor would just shrug, snap his fingers, and walk in the TARDIS after Clara threw away the last key? or: I laughed at your post and I think that was the intended reaction so I'll shut up
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Nov 2, 2014 05:12
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I'm confused, how are the cybermen going to raise an army of the dead unless the master has copied the consciousness of literally every dying person ever into the magic timelord sphere thing?
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Nov 2, 2014 05:12
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Jerusalem posted:The other refers to BDSM! They both do. Is there a list of Sexy's predictions and offhand comments from The Doctor's Wife and when they came true/of any haven't? I'm about to start that episode.
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Nov 2, 2014 05:12
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Slimy Hog posted:
.. which is one of the behind-the-Clara's-shoulder scenes I meant Btw, I think I understand the reason why the Cybermen are requiring permission to delete people's emotions, however disingenuously: The Cybermen generally believe that they are doing the Right Thing by upgrading people to Cyberform. What they do, in their eyes, is completely above-board. And what does impossibly-completely-above-board software never do? Install stuff without your permission. You have to accept Cyberformation. EDIT: While I'm not comfortable with toxxing myself over it, I'm guessing that based on one of the last scenes, the Kid Danny Shot is going to tell him not to delete his memories, good or bad, in some form. Not sure if that's spoilerblock worthy... MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Nov 2, 2014 |
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Nov 2, 2014 05:17
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But Rocks Hurt Head posted:I'm confused, how are the cybermen going to raise an army of the dead unless the master has copied the consciousness of literally every dying person ever into the magic timelord sphere thing? Doctor Chang mentioned that these institutions were set up all around the world.
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Nov 2, 2014 05:18
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I am sure this was said buy that Cyberman reveal would of been so much better if there wasn't a loving preview saying there was Cyberman.
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Nov 2, 2014 05:18
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MisterBibs posted:.. which is one of the behind-the-Clara's-shoulder scenes I meant I just desperately want to be right 
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Nov 2, 2014 05:24
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Darth Ronson posted:Given that Handles was clearly intelligent, why the hell would the Cybermen need an organic component anyway? They should have re-assimilated Handles, and had some kind of organic vs non-organic cyber civil war. Because the cybermen are cyborgs. Originally they were humanoids. Things happened, and they decided they were willing to do anything to survive, so they built the exoskeletons. The need to survive at any cost was built into the programing of the inorganic half, so while an empty cybersuit can function to some degree alone, it will always attempt to nab an organic brain if it can. Plus they'll make new cybermen of any compatible species, because the survival of the Cybermen is their highest drive. Of course organic brains that were cyberized unwillingly are miserable, so following the "survive at any cost" directive they started removing the parts that make you miserable, so cybermen don't feel emotions anymore. Once all the unhappy bits are removed and the rest is integrated with the inorganic programming, the new Cybermen agree that being a Cyberman is for the best and everyone possible should be upgraded. The Master, as usual, is completely missing the point with her "Cybermen from cyberspace". An organic brain is useful in some way to the Cybermen, perhaps it does things that can't be done with mere circuits and programing, or perhaps it is just an essential part of their identity. A dead skeleton + electronic imprint of a brain just isn't the same thing at all, and probably won't satisfy the Cybermen survival drive. What they really want is live humans, and Missy promised them 7 billion of them, so they are going along with her zany plans for now.
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Nov 2, 2014 05:32
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I have a feeling we're still in store for another plot twist of some kind. With the dream patch thing, the Doctor's constant reminders to Clara to remain skeptical, him being easily fooled by Missy, and the whole scam idea of W3, there seems to be a general theme going on here. It could of course just be a "things are not what they seem" build-up to the Master reveal, but could it refer to fooling the audience in less superficial ways? Maybe Missy isn't the Master after all? Will John Simm pop out at the very end to laugh maniacally at his awesome prank? Jacobeus fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Nov 2, 2014 |
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Nov 2, 2014 05:33
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I really hate Clara's relationship with this new Doctor. It just doesn't fit for me, and it doesn't work. Almost every episode she does something so stupid that I keep hoping he says, "consider this your two week's notice", and every week the Doctor puts up with her. She is so contrary to the adventure theme of the show, nearly every new character introduced I hope they are setting up a new companion.
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Nov 2, 2014 05:34
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Burkion posted:This is the main reason why above both of my posts on the matter, a huge blade with the words IF should rest. I wouldn't put it past her to alternate between calling herself the Master and the Mistress just to annoy the Doctor, honestly, even if she has no other reason to adopt a new name. "Annoy/Upset/Hurt/Generally Just gently caress With The Doctor" has always been Priority #1 for the Master. "Take Over The Universe"/"Get A Body That Isn't Rotting To Death" is generally a close second. "Put the wimmins in their place" is like priority #23 by comparison. Angela Christine posted:The Master, as usual, is completely missing the point with her "Cybermen from cyberspace". An organic brain is useful in some way to the Cybermen, perhaps it does things that can't be done with mere circuits and programing, or perhaps it is just an essential part of their identity. A dead skeleton + electronic imprint of a brain just isn't the same thing at all, and probably won't satisfy the Cybermen survival drive. What they really want is live humans, and Missy promised them 7 billion of them, so they are going along with her zany plans for now. Or she's just made mockup Cybermen with no connection to the real ones. Maybe the real ones are going to show up next episode all WHAT THE gently caress. (This won't happen but I now desperately want it to.)
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Nov 2, 2014 05:36
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But Rocks Hurt Head posted:I'm confused, how are the cybermen going to raise an army of the dead unless the master has copied the consciousness of literally every dying person ever into the magic timelord sphere thing? She's a Timelord, if she has a TARDIS she could have done that. She could literally go back thousands of years and zoom around back and forth to capture every dying mind. We know she was in the 1800's to capture that one robot. Probably didn't though, I really doubt she has billions of skeletal cybermen on hand.
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Nov 2, 2014 05:44
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Didn't see this being talked about, but what is it with Clara and the post it notes. It looks like she is trying to work something out, a connection between recent events. Has she been trying to work out "the woman on the end of the phone thing" all this time?
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Nov 2, 2014 06:04
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Mr Beens posted:Didn't see this being talked about, but what is it with Clara and the post it notes. I took it that she's trying to figure out how to explain the entirety of The Truth to Danny, so she decided to write down all the bullet points on post-it notes so she could rejigger them and think about the best way of doing so. And here's my first gooncam-made gif that didn't turn out to be 20mb and looks good:  "Oh god, turn away... nope, still in my peripheral vision. Must turn more." MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Nov 2, 2014 |
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Nov 2, 2014 06:12
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I said "what the gently caress" a lot of times in this episode. So many things happened that I didn't expect to see in Doctor Who. I thought the volcano scene was amazing, even if it did turn out to be fake. Also, I find it funny that the Doctor thought Danny was going to hell. He really doesn't like Danny.
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Nov 2, 2014 06:38
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Astroman posted:Oh, and was anyone else hoping the Doctor would just shrug, snap his fingers, and walk in the TARDIS after Clara threw away the last key? OMG Yes! Wild M posted:I said "what the gently caress" a lot of times in this episode. So many things happened that I didn't expect to see in Doctor Who. I thought the volcano scene was amazing, even if it did turn out to be fake. Yes. To be fair, objectively, Danny killed a lot of people.
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Nov 2, 2014 06:57
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Random Stranger posted:Then it turned out to be a giant con game with backed up brains and virtual reality (how convenient for Doctor Who that the most common touchstone in popular culture for virtual reality used the same name for it's system as they did). Son, Gallifrey had a Matrix 20 years before the movie of the same name existed.
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Nov 2, 2014 07:13
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