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I mean, Turtledove had his own aliens land during WW2 and have slightly better tanks series.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:04
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silvergoose posted:I mean, Turtledove had his own aliens land during WW2 and have slightly better tanks series. Tanks which were no match for the human psy-op warfare tactics of going "Hey aliens, did you know sex is actually awesome?" FMguru posted:See also: Tom Kratman's Watch On The Rhine, where aliens invade and almost conquer the earth in the 1990s only to have planet saved when the chancellor of Germany applies stolen alien anti-aging drugs to surviving members of the Waffen SS, who then quickly and efficiently kick the aliens off planet and redeem themselves in the eyes of the public and of history. Well if I had to fight off an alien invasion and occupation of my country, I know the first place I'd turn to for advice would be the regime that got their Thousand-Year-Reich invaded and occupied 988 years earlier than expected.
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Oct 29, 2014 23:32
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Look, if you were operating in a universe written by a guy who thinks they could stage an invasion of England by swimming there, you'd do that because it'd make sense.
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Oct 29, 2014 23:35
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FMguru posted:See also: Tom Kratman's Watch On The Rhine, where aliens invade and almost conquer the earth in the 1990s only to have planet saved when the chancellor of Germany applies stolen alien anti-aging drugs to surviving members of the Waffen SS, who then quickly and efficiently kick the aliens off planet and redeem themselves in the eyes of the public and of history. Why didn't they give the drugs to the people who won?
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Oct 29, 2014 23:36
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corn in the bible posted:Why didn't they give the drugs to the people who won? Presumably there weren't enough of those people left who hadn't been mentally crippled by the intervening decades of western liberalism and association with mud races, rendering them now militarily useless.
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Oct 30, 2014 00:14
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corn in the bible posted:Why didn't they give the drugs to the people who won? Or something like that. It's pure bullshit, of course. Waffen SS units were all over the map, quality-wise - quite a few (especially the ones staffed by foreign 'volunteers') performed little better than untrained mobs of armed thugs. And the ones that were good were good because as showcase units they had first priority for equipment and recruits and supplies (to the detriment of regular army units, which had to go begging and scrounging). VitalSigns posted:Presumably there weren't enough of those people left who hadn't been mentally crippled by the intervening decades of western liberalism and association with mud races, rendering them now militarily useless.
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Oct 30, 2014 00:17
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corn in the bible posted:Why didn't they give the drugs to the people who won? You can't expect the subhuman slavs to defeat the intergalactic RocknRollaAyatollah fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Oct 30, 2014 |
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Oct 30, 2014 00:19
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FMguru posted:It's an article of faith among WWII German fetishists that the Wehrmacht/Waffen SS totally could have won the war all by themselves except they were fatally hamstrung by their high commander who didn't know what he was doing and meddled too much. Also, the Allies cheated by having bigger economies and labor pools (this argument is also beloved of neo-confederates). One on one, man for man, unit for unit, the Waffen SS were the best and toughest and mightiest military units every produced by mankind! *sings the Horst Wessel Lied* Hey the SS was pretty good at dying more for the same objectives. Meanwhile I'm pretty sure Kratman literally wrote that bit about them swimming to England as a successful invasion.
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Oct 30, 2014 00:22
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FMguru posted:Also, the Allies cheated by having bigger economies and labor pools (this argument is also beloved of neo-confederates). *declares war on three-quarters of the globe* Hey you can't outnumber us, that's cheating! Let's settle this mano-a-mano, Slavs! FMguru posted:Yeah, that too. Would you be surprised to learn that the antagonists of the book (besides the alien invaders) are feminists, politically-correct politicians, peace activists, and environmentalists? Oh Jesus loving Christ Publisher's Weekly posted:An axiom of military science is that an army reflects the society it protects, but what happens when that society is confronted with a crisis its dominant ideology can't solve? In this provocative addition to the Posleen War series, a galactic civilization genetically predisposed toward pacifism offers humanity advanced technology so that we can defend ourselves (and them) from the only other sentient species capable of violence—think "Mongol horde in space." After the first enemy landings in 2004, the German chancellor decides, despite fierce opposition, to rejuvenate survivors of the Waffen SS. Eager to redeem their tarnished honor, these veterans display the same steadfastness and fortitude that they did in Russia and Normandy. Ringo (Hell's Faire) and Kratman (A State of Disobedience) pull no punches in this audacious and deliberately shocking effort, contrasting the ruthlessness of the (mostly) former Nazis with the contemporary politicians' disastrous insistence on forcing reality into a politically correct mold. Readers who can overcome their ideological gag reflex will be rewarded with an exciting view from "the other side of the hill." VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Oct 30, 2014 |
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Oct 30, 2014 00:25
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This is the write up on the main villain race:Wikipedia posted:Elf-like in appearance, they are the lawyers and bankers of the Galactic Federation and effectively control it, skimming wealth from the labor of others. Although vegetarian, they have razor-sharp teeth. While smaller than humans, Darhel have far greater physical abilities—and some would say their mental abilities are just as advanced, particularly a subtle but potent ranged empathic ability. However, they are devout pacifists. These contradictions are the result of genetic tampering by a powerful and arrogant elder race, the Aldenata. Although the full extent of this tampering is not detailed, the most crippling is their pacifism—when Darhel are stressed, their bodies produce an epinephrine analogue they call tal—which unlike epinephrine, augments both physical and mental abilities. The Aldenata altered Darhel biochemistry so that heightened tal levels induce a permanent coma-like state known as lintatai. This, in combination with their empathic ability, left them extremely inept at violent acts and physically incapable of taking any form of animal life. Their survival has thus become dependent on their ability to manipulate others to fight their battles for them. The Darhel are implied to be attempting to mold Humans into a race of Mamlukes; recruiting the planet's most skilled warriors to fight the Posleen on Galactic worlds, preserving their bloodlines by moving family members to protected worlds—and permitting the Posleen to conquer Earth, thus leaving Humanity dependent on the Darhel as all other Galactic races. After the defeat of the Posleen on Earth, Humans discovered the extent of the Darhel duplicity, manipulation and actions against the Human Race, the majority of the Darhel are wiped out by Humans in the aftermath of the Posleen War, leaving them the underclass of Galactic civilization. Where have I read about a group like this before? Good thing those brave fighting men stopped this dire threat to the human race.
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Oct 30, 2014 00:40
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xthetenth posted:Hey the SS was pretty good at dying more for the same objectives. SS dying story: during the allied liberation of Europe, a badly wounded SS soldier is taken to a POW hospital where the non-SS POWs there have been chilling and having a good time with their American doctors. SS dude is rolled in and all the other POWs clam up and refuse to talk to the Americans until the SS guy dies a few days after refusing a blood transfusion proclaiming "I die for Hitler!"
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Oct 30, 2014 01:28
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So wait how did this threat become a discussion of trashy fiction by possibly white supremacist military fetishists?
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Oct 30, 2014 02:04
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icantfindaname posted:So wait how did this threat become a discussion of trashy fiction by possibly white supremacist military fetishists? That's kinda what all threads on SA become on a long enough timeline.
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Oct 30, 2014 02:38
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VitalSigns posted:*declares war on three-quarters of the globe* Haha! Of course it's John "Heroic Rapist" Ringo who co-wrote it.
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Oct 30, 2014 03:19
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The award for worst alt-history/historical time travel author goes to Leo Frankowski. His "Cross Time Engineer" series starts off as more or less exactly what it sounds like, although there are some teenage girls conspicuously willing to gently caress the protagonist. The anime harem bullshit builds as the series goes on, until in the 6th book he has his new protagonist meet a tribe of Amazon natives who all look like children and all want to gently caress all the time. He was a total MRA before it was cool, too.
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Oct 30, 2014 06:39
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VideoTapir posted:The award for worst alt-history/historical time travel author goes to Leo Frankowski. His "Cross Time Engineer" series starts off as more or less exactly what it sounds like, although there are some teenage girls conspicuously willing to gently caress the protagonist. The anime harem bullshit builds as the series goes on, until in the 6th book he has his new protagonist meet a tribe of Amazon natives who all look like children and all want to gently caress all the time. His profile pic on google search is absurdly good.
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Oct 30, 2014 07:01
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KORNOLOGY posted:His profile pic on google search is absurdly good. If you like that you'll love this: https://web.archive.org/web/20080725201144/http://www.leofrankowski.com/content
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Oct 30, 2014 07:03
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May Goonism never, ever, die.
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Oct 30, 2014 07:13
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icantfindaname posted:So wait how did this threat become a discussion of trashy fiction by possibly white supremacist military fetishists? We're all co-op writing an alternate history novel. POD: October 28th, 2013 when the OP begain this thread and named it The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion: We tortured some folks > General Alt-History Thread - Finding new things to be ashamed about
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Oct 30, 2014 07:22
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Is there a general D&D opinion of Doris Kearns Goodwin? Until a few months ago, I never heard of the allegations of plagiarism; I only found out about it when looking up Fareed Zakaria. I find it strange that she was able to (re)build an uncontroversial history brand around herself. I know some LGBT activists aren't fans of her because she strongly refutes evidence that Lincoln had gay relationships. I'm generally a Lincoln fan (he's one of the extremely few presidents that survives scrutiny in my mind), but I was always a bit bothered how Team of Rivals advanced the "Great, Pragmatic, Skilled Politician" narrative of Abe, when I prefer Lincoln the man who crushed the South, consolidated federal power, and played an extremely crucial role in abolishing slavery. (I'm a fan of the Lincoln movie, despite technically being based on a few pages of Team of Rivals, because it doesn't shy away from the moral dimension of the issue of slavery.) I know there are those who simply dislike Goodwin because she's a "history celebrity" who didn't do much actual original scholarship around the subjects she writes about, and spends just as much time promoting herself. But I'm not against people being professional "history storytellers", but rather what and how history is fed to the public.
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Nov 2, 2014 05:03
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Echo Chamber posted:I know there are those who simply dislike Goodwin because she's a "history celebrity" who didn't do much actual original scholarship around the subjects she writes about, and spends just as much time promoting herself. But I'm not against people being professional "history storytellers", but rather what and how history is fed to the public. I don't much care that she writes popular history because she's a drat good writer. However, I hatehatehate reading someone's work and always wondering if the author just lifted something from someone who did actual research. The plagiarism bit really killed my interest in reading anything she wrote when I found out about it. I especially dislike her because despite the plagiarism, she's touted as some great historian because the issue was settled and swept under the rug.
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Nov 2, 2014 06:05
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quote:I'm generally a Lincoln fan (he's one of the extremely few presidents that survives scrutiny in my mind), but I was always a bit bothered how Team of Rivals advanced the "Great, Pragmatic, Skilled Politician" narrative of Abe, when I prefer Lincoln the man who crushed the South, consolidated federal power, and played an extremely crucial role in abolishing slavery. (I'm a fan of the Lincoln movie, despite technically being based on a few pages of Team of Rivals, because it doesn't shy away from the moral dimension of the issue of slavery.) "Great, Pragmatic, Skilled Politician" is a good description of Lincoln and that narrative has a lot more connection to historical evidence than the heroic mythology you seem to be referencing. While I enjoyed Lincoln as a movie, it has a lot of problems if taken as a work of history. It nearly erases the role of Northern blacks in pushing and lobbying for abolition, particularly Frederick Douglass who was quite influential historically in the process, and largely ignores the enormous damage done to slavery by mass escapes and resistance in the South combined with ex-slave enlistment in the Union army (blacks comprised about 10% of Union troops by 1865.) In addition, its portrayal of Thaddeus Stevens was almost indistinguishable from that of Birth of a Nation and just as poor. On Goodwin, I greatly enjoyed Team of Rivals but the plagiarism accusations seem to be substantiated and disturbing. I'm a history student - if I didn't indicate that major verbatim quotes in a paper were quotes and not paraphrased or my own work even if I had a footnote I would be very lucky if the worst thing that happened was a failing mark and a stern warning. It's inexcusable for stuff like that to show up in a book written by a historian. Rogue0071 fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Nov 2, 2014 |
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Nov 2, 2014 06:39
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VitalSigns posted:We're all co-op writing an alternate history novel. POD: October 28th, 2013 when the OP begain this thread and named it Now I feel like this thread has been really underwhelming compared to what it could've been.
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Nov 2, 2014 11:48
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Rogue0071 posted:"Great, Pragmatic, Skilled Politician" is a good description of Lincoln and that narrative has a lot more connection to historical evidence than the heroic mythology you seem to be referencing. And the heroic mythology is only really because of his martyrdom. it's quite likely that the 14th & 15th Amendments were only passed because of momentum generated by Lincoln's death, and it's very much possible that he wouldn't have even supported them if he had been alive.
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Nov 2, 2014 15:25
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I hardly call what I described as heroic mythology though. Obviously, Lincoln was martyred after his assassination; and Republicans deified him in Reconstruction. But once Republican interests drifted away from civil rights, reconstruction, etc. the history of how how Lincoln's presidency was spun became peculiar. The second "heroic mythology" of Lincoln developed during the Jim Crow era. I dramatically downplayed his activism on slavery in favor of his reconciliation with the South and holding the Radical Republicans at bay. It's nearly a miracle that the Lincoln Memorial played up the second inaugural address, considering how it was dedicated in 1922. It actually took decades for the whole "Lincoln sort of freed the slaves, but it's complicated" story to actually become the accepted narrative again. And there are plenty of neo-confederates revisionists and libertarians who play the "THE MORE YOU KNOW" card by pretending the Emancipation Proclamation didn't do anything (which isn't true) and ignoring Lincoln's role in the 13th Amendment. Strangely, Lincoln's role with advancing the 13th Amendment has been largely ignored in the popular imagination up until the Lincoln movie. I'm suspicious of the new theology of Lincoln emphasizing his pragmatism and leadership, because it's a narrative that suits current American political leadership too well. Obama compromises! It's not bad! It's just like Lincoln! computer parts posted:And the heroic mythology is only really because of his martyrdom. it's quite likely that the 14th & 15th Amendments were only passed because of momentum generated by Lincoln's death, and it's very much possible that he wouldn't have even supported them if he had been alive. Echo Chamber fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Nov 2, 2014 |
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Nov 2, 2014 17:46
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Echo Chamber posted:
Lincoln's plans called for a quick reintegration of the South back into the US, which would have been an issue if he wanted lasting change in the region. I wouldn't say he'd be as bad as Andrew Johnson but I'm doubtful that Reconstruction would have lasted as long as it did if he had survived. Plus Republicans already had a majority of the electorate with the North. Honestly I think the situation would turn out somewhat similar to Hispanics - Black people would be considered "residents, but not citizens", would be a source of cheap labor, and eventually would be naturalized but the racist system would still be in place. computer parts fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Nov 2, 2014 |
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Nov 2, 2014 17:59
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Echo Chamber posted:It actually took decades for the whole "Lincoln sort of freed the slaves, but it's complicated" story to actually become the accepted narrative again. Perhaps I've just been exposed to too much right-wing kookery via D&D, but the narratives I would get about Lincoln from that end of the spectrum were: 1. He really was this hero who freed the slaves, which was good, and that he was a Republican, which means Republicans are good and not at all racially biased against African-Americans via the transitive property. 2. He did not care at all for African-Americans and simply used the slavery issue as a cover to wage a 'war of aggression' upon the South and impose the will of a strong Federal government upon a people that simply wanted to be left alone. This is usually accomplished by taking his letter to Horace Greeley completely out of context - "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it" and completely ignoring the 'evolution of his opinion' (to coin an Obama-ism) with regards to slavery and African-American rights over the half-decade leading up to his eventual death. I've not really run into a narrative that picks up on Lincoln's pragmatism and bipartisanship, especially since any comparisons to Obama would grant that Obama is a negotiator and is willing to be bipartisanship, when the narrative that's more commonly pushed is that he's this tyrannical imperialist that simply imposes his will over the nation in naked displays of force (or is about to, any day now). Lincoln, I find, is either portrayed as someone who knew exactly what he was doing and did it as a Republican, therefore credit goes to the party, or someone who knew exactly what he was doing and wrought destruction upon the South to do it.
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Nov 2, 2014 18:06
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Oh god, Tom loving Kratman. Mind you, I generally thought "good loving hell, John Ringo is pretty insane". Then someone stated quote: "hah, John Ringos insanity is tameth, he compares to the Kratman like Zhirinovsky doeseth to Lavrentij Berija on LSD." It was, having tried to read "watch on the rhine" and failed, a pretty apt description, despite me thankfully not knowing Lavrentij Berija on LSD first hand. I am aware of both Russian and Ukrainian analoges to Kratman/Ringo (which may or may not be unfair to those), but to my knowing such authors do not exist in western Europe. However, "Man of Prey" (in which everyone gangs up and enslaves Russia, and the US is a colonial occupying force. It actually isnt that racists because iirc the protagonist is a Muslim) actually got turned into a pretty good computer game, which cannot be said of Ringo or Kratman.
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Nov 2, 2014 18:36
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Hi guys, I always loved this thread. Can someone please tell me more about political machines in America? I know the most famous one was Tammany Hall. How did it form and how did it lose power? Also won't other cities and places mimic the political machine and create more off branches? Finally, does anyone know when vote buying became an out dated thing and when did the government go through civil reform? Thanks!
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Nov 3, 2014 07:51
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caberham posted:
The latter was in the 1880s, after we got a President shot (Garfield) because he wouldn't give a crazy guy a job. Your av reminds me that I have a friend from Hong Kong in a graduate program (for government/bureaucrat stuff) here and she had never heard about that. As for vote buying, it sort of depends what you mean. It used to be common to drop off a bunch of immigrants with instructions on which votes to cast but that was mostly because they were illiterate.
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Nov 3, 2014 13:47
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caberham posted:Hi guys, I always loved this thread. Can someone please tell me more about political machines in America? I know the most famous one was Tammany Hall. How did it form and how did it lose power? Also won't other cities and places mimic the political machine and create more off branches? Tammany Hall began in the late 1700s at a social club for wealthy New York business owners. Thanks to Alexander Hamilton's aggressive campaign to destroy the Democratic-Republicans and Burr's desperation to find supporters, Tammany Hall became one of the few places where Republicans could openly congregate and seek financial support. By 1800, Tammany Hall became one of the most important mechanisms in the Democratic-Republican party, organizing voters and lobbying the New York government for favorable policies. The group is thought responsible for Jefferson's victory in 1800, where Republican candidates for New York City's assembly were elected by a majority of one vote. As other political organizations started to decline, Tammany Hall was able to support itself by accepting immigrants as members. During a period where government rejected, if not reviled, foreigners, Tammany Hall secured the support of immigrant constituencies by providing proto-welfare programs. If you were hungry, Tammany Hall could help pay food costs. If you were unemployed, Tammany Hall would hire you to work on a public works program. If you were having troubles integrating, Tammany Hall could connect you with immigrants from your native country. All you needed to do to get this support was to get yourself naturalized, a process owned and operated by Tammany Hall, and ensure the right candidates were elected. If the Democratic candidate failed, then support would dry up until the next election. Most Americans accepted Tammany Hall under the assumption that the machine could control new immigrant communities and maintain political stability in New York. When the Orange Riots broke out in Manhattan, the political elite saw it as a sign that Tammany could not keep the Irish in line. The matter was not helped by growing anti-Catholic sentiment across the United States and several well-reported building collapses in New York City. In late 1871, Harper's Weekly released a report claiming that $200 million had been wasted by the city on graft and corruption. These reports spurred political reformers to seize control of New York's government and arrest its organizers. Tammany Hall continued to stumble along for a few decades, its influence largely limited to New York City. In 1932, FDR stopped providing Tammany Hall with federal patronage and in 1940, relief programs deprived Tammany of its last carrot with immigrant communities. The group dwindled to a few politicians, who were later charged with tax evasion, and ceased to exist entirely by 1960. EDIT: I'll add that Tammany is famous because it was the biggest and oldest political machine in the United States, and because it served as a convenient boogeyman for the anti-immigrant Republican Party. There were, and still are, various political machines across the country. My county recently had its government taken down after federal prosecutors uncovered evidence of mass corruption. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Nov 3, 2014 |
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Nov 3, 2014 15:08
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Of course, that neglects to mention their origin in Philadelphia, or their note of significance as a marker of the hold of Indian culture on the formation of American Democracy. It's a very overlooked segment of history - much of America's political system owes a lot to the Five Nations, when you look at it.
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Nov 3, 2014 15:44
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Can anyone tell me more about the schisms in the Democratic party from about Polk's time to 1860? I remember reading in my old APUSH textbook that a lot of expansionist Northern Democrats were pissed off by Polk's acceptance of the 49th parallel line for the northern border, thus depriving them of present-day BC, and made grumbles about how "it is time for northern democracy to take its stand".
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Nov 3, 2014 17:35
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This is a pretty fun article about the presidential turkey pardon.
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Nov 26, 2014 15:52
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Has there been any research into whether the passing of the Civil Rights Act had anything at all to do with the schism between the ANC and Umkhonto we Sizwe, along with rising violent resistance in South Africa and a fear that it was going to get worse here?
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Nov 26, 2014 16:43
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computer parts posted:The latter was in the 1880s, after we got a President shot (Garfield) because he wouldn't give a crazy guy a job. Your av reminds me that I have a friend from Hong Kong in a graduate program (for government/bureaucrat stuff) here and she had never heard about that. Saying that it was a crazy job seeker kind of undersells it. It was a homeless schizophrenic guy who believed he was responsible for getting Garfield elected, and it was only right that he should be appointed ambassador to France, or at the least, Russia. When (naturally) his letters were ignored, it was only divine justice thathe would shoot Garfield. Garfield's VP, Chester A. Arthur, who pretty much owed his entire career to patronage took the lead on reforming tbe civil service because it was an embarrassment of corruption and incompetence.
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Nov 26, 2014 16:57
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Mightypeon posted:It was, having tried to read "watch on the rhine" and failed, a pretty apt description, despite me thankfully not knowing Lavrentij Berija on LSD first hand. Stop reading garbage and you might stop torturing English so much.
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Nov 26, 2014 17:26
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The history professor I IA for recently prescribed Guns of the South to his students as a good way to understand the real reasoning behind the American Civil War.
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Nov 26, 2014 17:31
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corn in the bible posted:The history professor I IA for recently prescribed Guns of the South to his students as a good way to understand the real reasoning behind the American Civil War. You cannot be serious.
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Nov 26, 2014 18:28
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Has anyone else read David Pietrusza's 1960? It's a nice prequel to Before the Storm.
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Nov 26, 2014 18:28
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