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namaste friends
Sep 18, 2004

by Smythe
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/east-vancouver-mental-health-home-for-youth-raising-neighbourhood-concerns-1.2819208

Today in our property values.

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namaste friends
Sep 18, 2004

by Smythe
http://www.vancourier.com/vancouver-votes/opinion/opinion-jane-jacobs-vision-lost-among-vancouver-s-high-towers-1.1456021

jane jacobs, richard florida, sam sullivan, mayor moonbeam blah blah blah

blah_blah
Apr 15, 2006

Lead out in cuffs posted:

Something like this? https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.2489979,-123.1201808,3a,71.8y,169.8h,89.89t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sbhwrE08xtR3drUvP8Mdnwg!2e0
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.2487402,-123.1203723,3a,75y,88.84h,89.67t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sQ9UPIkihrXB-oGxbqLI2kw!2e0

I looked that one up, way back when. The house is valued at $1.6M, about the same as the land. It's probably not terrible quality, but it's obviously trying very hard to be the mansion that it is not. You can look up and down the street for lesser examples (the more standard giant front door surrounded by two-story towers McMansion abounds).

The fact that all Vancouver houses, even the fancy ones built 10 years ago, drop exponentially in value over time suggests that none of them were built particularly well to begin with, even if they were built for a million dollars or more.

Fake edit: Also what Rime said. And what he's described is a lot of new builds in Vancouver over the

Neither of those are McMansions as I understand it -- both of those are expensive custom built houses (which obviously doesn't disqualify them from being ugly). That also disqualifies most of the properties in Vancouver where someone tore down a Vancouver special to build a huge whole-lot house. If you want a real McMansion you have to go out to some of the new developments in Langley or Surrey where they have row upon row of them.

Rime
Nov 2, 2011

by Games Forum

What's funny is that his quotations in here directly contradict the poo poo he was spewing on stage the other night.

blah_blah posted:

Neither of those are McMansions as I understand it -- both of those are expensive custom built houses (which obviously doesn't disqualify them from being ugly).

Look again, that's two shots of the same house. :v:

blah_blah
Apr 15, 2006

Rime posted:

Look again, that's two shots of the same house. :v:

Oops.

Dr. Witherbone
Nov 1, 2010

CHEESE LOOKS ON IN
DESPAIR BUT ALSO WITH
AN ERECTION
Listen up vancouver! If you're looking to make more money and take control of your personal and financial future, then get ready, because Than Merrill, the star of A&E's hit TV show Flip This House, one of the most successful Real Estate Investors in the country, America's #1 real estate expert, has one HECK of an opportunity for you! Click Now! Opportunity For You! Than is hosting a free, local, two hour real estate investing workshop, where you can learn his three step system for getting started flipping homes, and buying and holding income properties!!!!!!

Professor Shark
May 22, 2012


They were in Halifax a couple months ago, sounded very scammy

Lexicon
Jul 29, 2003

I had a beer with Stephen Harper once and now I like him.
Best part of the video: "You can do this without needing money, credit, or experience!" :downs:



:siren: Shoeshine! :siren:

etalian
Mar 20, 2006

Professor Shark posted:

They were in Halifax a couple months ago, sounded very scammy

I love how the crowd for the sales pitch is mainly obese people or really old people.

Booourns
Jan 20, 2004
Please send a report when you see me complain about other posters and threads outside of QCS

~thanks!


I hear this commercial nearly every time the radio does ads, and they've been playing them for over 2 years now. The best part isn't that it says it can do it without money, it says it can do it without YOUR money, as in you can let other people pay for it somehow.

melon cat
Jan 21, 2010

Nap Ghost

This reminds me of the 'Rich Dad Poor Dad' scams run by Robert Kiyosaki. Same BS- it's a "get-rich" quick scheme that targets broke, older people. It was torn apart by CBC Marketplace. The most appalling part of their undercover investigation was when the seminars employees convinced these people to call up their banks to request credit card limit increases so they could have enough money to toss into sketchy, worthless real estate.

melon cat fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Nov 4, 2014

Rime
Nov 2, 2011

by Games Forum

melon cat posted:

This reminds me of the 'Rich Dad Poor Dad' scamsrun by Robert Kiyosaki. Same BS- it's a "get-rich" quick scheme that targets broke, older people. It was torn apart by CBC Marketplace. The most appalling part of their undercover investigation was when the seminars employees convinced these people to call up their banks to request credit card limit increases so they could have enough money to toss into sketchy, worthless real estate.

To be fair he wasn't running them directly, they were contracted out to some lovely scammy company. Not that that makes it any better, but it shows he was at least smarter than your average seminar scammer.

Grand Theft Autobot
Feb 28, 2008

I'm something of a fucking idiot myself

Flip That House was way better than Flip This House.

Grand Theft Autobot
Feb 28, 2008

I'm something of a fucking idiot myself

Rime posted:

To be fair he wasn't running them directly, they were contracted out to some lovely scammy company. Not that that makes it any better, but it shows he was at least smarter than your average seminar scammer.

No, it just gives him plausible deniability. When confronted with abuses that line his scammer pockets he can say, "Well I am just as upset as you are!"

triplexpac
Mar 24, 2007

Suck it
Two tears in a bucket
And then another thing
I'm not the one they'll try their luck with
Hit hard like brass knuckles
See your face through the turnbuckle dude
I got no love for you
http://www.ratehub.ca/mortgage-blog/2014/10/team-case-study-on-winning-and-losing-bidding-wars/

quote:

Earlier this month, we launched a series documenting our CMO’s experiences with buying her first home in Toronto. We started by sharing some of the financial decisions Kerri-Lynn (KL) and her partner made, as well as what it was like to go to viewings and decide what type of home they wanted to buy. This week, she and I chatted about all the bidding wars she found herself in – and how she finally “won” her dream home.

Cait: Walk us through your first bidding war. What happened?

KL: The first bidding war we got into was for a condo, which is very rare; this is when we realized how competitive the family-friendly condo market was in Toronto. Generally, it’s a good idea to see a home at least twice: once privately (so you can look at it in-detail) and again at the open house (to see how many people show interest in the property). However, with this first property, offers were accepted anytime and there were three offers on the first day it was listed.

You can usually submit your offer 1 of 3 ways: at the property itself, at the listing agent’s office, or you can send it in via fax. Most real estate agents will recommend you do it in-person (i.e. not via fax), so you can build some rapport with the listing agent and sellers, as well as be available to change your offer on the spot. For the condo, the listing agent held the offer presentations at her office, which was in Markham – and on a Friday night at 10pm. It was a really strange experience, and our real estate agent said he’d never seen that before, especially for a downtown Toronto condo.

Anyway, as the buyer, you don’t go in yourself. You basically sit and wait, while your real estate agent goes in and presents your offer to the listing agent + sellers. It’s done this way so hopeful buyers don’t get emotional, make rash decisions, etc. and also adds a level of professionalism to the whole experience. But I was literally sitting in a car waiting while our agent presented our offer and then we waited together until all the other offers were presented. After that, the listing agent + seller may decide to accept an offer (in the first round) or choose a few offers that are close and ask if you’d like to improve yours (in a second round). We didn’t make it past the first round.

Cait: Were you disappointed you’d lost?

KL: I was. I’d fallen in love with that condo and had basically already moved in, in my head. Then people tell you “everything happens for a reason” and you kind of roll your eyes at that, especially when you’re disappointed… but it’s true! It’s good we lost that one, or else we wouldn’t have bought the amazing house we have now.

Cait: Did you stop looking at condos after you lost?

KL: No, we still looked at them a bit, but just added houses to the mix. When we did the cash flow analysis on large two-bedroom condos with large corresponding condo fees versus houses, a three-bedroom house was not that much more expensive.

Cait: What was different about the second bidding war you entered?

KL: Once we decided to start looking at houses, I fell in love with the first one we saw – and this is a bad idea! Our real estate agent always told us to see multiple properties, so we wouldn’t make any rash decisions or jump into something just because we loved the “idea” of it. But after seeing so many condos, that first house had everything we were looking for in a condo, and I loved the idea that we could actually afford a house!

This brought us into another highly competitive segment of the market for renovated three-bedroom starter homes. The next house we decided to submit an offer on had an “offer date”, which basically meant a bidding war – all offers were accepted only on that date. On top of being in the neighbourhood we wanted, the house was nicely updated and had a basement apartment. (Tip: If you see a home that has income potential, be prepared for the bidding war to be extra competitive!)

We registered our offer early, at our real estate agent’s suggestion, because when you do so, the listing agent has to tell you if any bully offers come in. (A bully offer is when someone submits an offer that they think is amazing, in hopes they can buy the house before it goes to a bidding war.) Most of the time, sellers won’t even look at bully offers, because they know they can get more out of a bidding war – but it’s still good to know if any have been submitted, because then you can get a sense of how competitive the bidding war is going to be. In the end, 10 offers were registered on the house, which is high, even for Toronto. All offers were presented at the house itself, which meant there were 10 hopeful buyers + their real estate agents waiting around to present.

Before you enter a bidding war, you and your real estate agent will decide between two different strategies: either go all-in with your “first and best” offer, or bid slightly below it and know that you’d be happy to go up another increment (say $10,000). Typically, if there are a lot of people (and therefore a lot of offers), you’ll want to go all-in with your highest offer. If there are only 2-3 people, though, you may go in lower and know you have some wiggle room. Because there were 9 other people making offers, we decided to go all-in. Our real estate agent thought we had a good offer, but also warned us that it would likely sell for more because of the income potential. (We’re also grateful he was honest and told us not to bid any more than we already had, as he didn’t think the house was worth more.) Like our first bidding war, we didn’t even make it past the first round. And here’s where the numbers may shock people: we went in at $140,000 over asking, and we still lost by $35,000.

Cait: That’s crazy!

KL: Yea, list prices on houses are basically irrelevant in Toronto. Actually, that’s not always true. Most houses are underpriced to spark a bidding war, but once in a while you’ll find a house that’s listed for what the sellers want. When you see something that’s accurately priced, you freak out and mentally add like $100,000 on top of that. It takes time and a lot of viewings to figure out what a house is worth, which is why it’s really important to not fall in love with the first place you see. Plus, if there’s one truth to the Toronto housing market, it’s this: a house is worth whatever amount a buyer is willing to pay.

Cait: Are you happy you lost the second bidding war?

KL: We would’ve been happy if we’d won, but it’s also fine that we lost. Looking back, the house was on a busier street, it didn’t have great curb appeal, the upgrades weren’t done exactly to our taste, and my partner actually wasn’t keen on having a basement apartment because he didn’t like the idea of having a stranger living in our house. We definitely weren’t willing to pay $35,000 more for it, even with income potential. But if our offer had won, we would’ve been ahead on a monthly cash-flow basis, compared to the house we ended up buying.

Cait: Let’s talk about the third and final bidding war you ended up in, then. Walk us through what happened.

KL: By the time we went into this one, we had built up the right mentality for bidding wars. After losing a couple bidding wars already, you can’t help but feel defeated, and you’re not exactly hopeful the next one will be a success. This mentality is both good and bad. It’s good because it prevents you from getting attached, and it helps you map out your plan from a strategic standpoint vs. an emotional one. But it’s a little depressing, too! After seeing so many homes, and losing two bidding wars already, I was emotionally exhausted and didn’t have any hope that we’d actually win this one – but we wanted to try.

We saw the property multiple times, first privately and then again at the open house. When we were at the open house, we saw a lot of foot traffic, so we knew it would be another competitive situation. I told you (and showed you) all about the house last week and we obviously loved it. I could tell my partner really loved it, because he upped our budget by quite a bit in the end. I also think we’d also just gotten to the point where we had to decide to go all-in – like really all-in, with as much as we could – because we just wanted to buy a house and move on with our lives.

This time, there were 14 offers! The listing agent gave every real estate agent a 5-minute slot to present, so our real estate agent and I (and Kingston!) went for a walk around the neighbourhood during that time. We didn’t feel great about our offer, this time, just because of how many offers there were. But less than 2 hours later, we got a callback saying that ours was 1 of 6 offers that were extremely close to each other, and asking if we had any room to improve.

When you go into the second round, you can do one of two things: leave your offer as-is, or improve it. Since there’s a chance your original offer was the highest one already, you can take the gamble and choose not to increase it. But we decided to improve our offer, because we really liked the house. Thirty minutes later, we got another callback saying that ours was 1 of 3 offers that were extremely close, and asking if we could improve our offer yet again. (A third round!) With the help of our agent, we were able to improve our offer a little bit again. The sellers also asked if we could move up the closing date by 2 weeks, which was no problem for us, because we were renters (didn’t have another house to sell first) and could move anytime. The date is what helped seal the deal, because we won!

Cait: What conditions did you release in your offer?

KL: When you enter a bidding war, you need to make a clean offer (no financing or home inspection conditions) or else there’s little-to-no chance you’ll win. So we released both, and decided to use the seller’s home inspection.

Cait: What are the risks involved with releasing both conditions?

KL: You usually don’t need to get a home inspection on a condo in Toronto – at least not new ones – so we felt fine about the first one. But for the houses, we just had to read through and trust that the seller’s home inspection was accurate. Some people still feel more confident commissioning their own inspection, but that can get expensive when you end up participating in multiple bidding wars.

As for financing, you’ll obviously want to get pre-approved first, so you know a lender is willing to give you a mortgage of at least X amount. But you shouldn’t rely on your pre-approval. If the property ends up being appraised at a value lower than your pre-approval, your lender will only loan you the appraised value and you’ll be stuck with the shortfall. CanWise will share more about how you can avoid this on Wednesday.

Thanks, KL!

Throughout this entire process, KL kept track of all the forms that needed to be filled out and processes she had to go through, so we could develop the ultimate moving checklist. Stay tuned for that next week!

ocrumsprug
Sep 23, 2010

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN
I am not sure what's worse really, no inspection or believing the sellers inspection on a no subject offer.

melon cat
Jan 21, 2010

Nap Ghost
.

melon cat fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Mar 16, 2019

Reince Penis
Nov 15, 2007

by R. Guyovich

ocrumsprug posted:

I am not sure what's worse really, no inspection or believing the sellers inspection on a no subject offer.

And they say markets are rational.

mik
Oct 16, 2003
oh

This is like a retarded nightmare.

quote:

I also think we’d also just gotten to the point where we had to decide to go all-in – like really all-in, with as much as we could – because we just wanted to buy a house and move on with our lives.

Ironic because by going "all-in" they've only ensured that they're going to live with the consequences of that horrible decision for the rest of their lives.

Postess with the Mostest
Apr 4, 2007

Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

Is that the friend you described or is this just really common in Toronto? I seem to hear about unconditional offers more frequently in Toronto than Vancouver or anywhere else.

ocrumsprug posted:

I am not sure what's worse really, no inspection or believing the sellers inspection on a no subject offer.

I'd say it's mathematiclaly worse to believe the seller's inspection. It can only make the house more expensive as other stupid Toronto buyers will also trust it and it's effectively worth the same amount as no inspection at all.

quote:

Some people still feel more confident commissioning their own inspection, but that can get expensive when you end up participating in multiple bidding wars.

This is just wrong right? You're only paying for the inspection if they accept your conditional offer. You wouldn't pay for it while you're still in a bidding war. Also, holy poo poo I can't wait to read this kid's "ultimate moving checklist". Step 1, offer way over asking price, CHECK. Increase the offer again, CHECK. Blindly increase it one last time, CHECK. Trust the seller's home inspection because those things get expensive anyway, CHECK. The all-in analogy is amazing because they've effectively done that without looking at their cards.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin
Hey Baronjutter there's an online activex GIS tool that one could use for Vancouver Island, I used it a whole bunch a while back when property buying, but I can't remember the name now, whats it called?

triplexpac
Mar 24, 2007

Suck it
Two tears in a bucket
And then another thing
I'm not the one they'll try their luck with
Hit hard like brass knuckles
See your face through the turnbuckle dude
I got no love for you

Ikantski posted:

Is that the friend you described or is this just really common in Toronto? I seem to hear about unconditional offers more frequently in Toronto than Vancouver or anywhere else.

I'm guessing it's just common in Toronto?

If people are making offers on houses and taking it unconditionally, then yeah I guess in a weird way it does make it impossible to buy a house if you want to do an inspection yourself.

Saltin
Aug 20, 2003
Don't touch

triplexpac posted:

I'm guessing it's just common in Toronto?

If people are making offers on houses and taking it unconditionally, then yeah I guess in a weird way it does make it impossible to buy a house if you want to do an inspection yourself.

It's very common in Toronto's desirable areas to go with a no condition offer when multiple offers are present. You won't win with conditions. It's pretty common for the seller to have an inspection done prior, and it is usually available for pick-up at open house. Usually they are done by the big name firms around here like Carson-Dunlop. I'm not aware of them biasing the report in the seller's favour, seems actionable to me if you could prove it.

The truth is that home inspections the way they usually happen are pretty loving over-rated. 90% of the things you'll want to know about a house are not knowable without tearing down finishes, which most home inspectors don't do (and you can't do if you're having it done on a prospective buy). The amount of stuff they can actually see, especially if the basement is finished, is pretty limited. Check the attic for insulation, ventilation and mould, check the roof and eaves, water drainage, pressure, age of appliances and are the plugs all grounded etc. All things anyone can do themselves really. Also, anyone can become a home inspector really quickly, and there are loads of dummies working out there (watch Mike Holmes go off on his show regularly)

Of course it makes sense to have an inspection, but they won't eliminate surprises.

Saltin fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Nov 4, 2014

flashman
Dec 16, 2003

I used to assist a home inspector around here when I was younger (taking his notes on a palm pilot while he went around) and he had all kinds of sweet stuff like a sensor to test for moisture behind gyp rock and one of those infrared cameras to see cold spots and stuff. Seemed like pretty useful stuff, usually people used it to drop their offer though rather than be afraid to buy (a lot of the houses around here are old and lovely so I guess they thought why not).

blah_blah
Apr 15, 2006

triplexpac posted:

I'm guessing it's just common in Toronto?

If people are making offers on houses and taking it unconditionally, then yeah I guess in a weird way it does make it impossible to buy a house if you want to do an inspection yourself.

When a family member sold their Vancouver house there were like 25+ offers in one weekend. They took the one with no subjects even though the dollar amount was slightly lower. No subjects are not at all uncommon in Vancouver.

Professor Shark
May 22, 2012

Do people lose their senses the more zeroes you ad to a number? Does it become so large that's imaginary to them?

TAKE MY "MONEY" I DON'T CARE WHAT THE HOUSE IS LIKE

JawKnee
Mar 24, 2007





You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line

Professor Shark posted:

Do people lose their senses the more zeroes you ad to a number? Does it become so large that's imaginary to them?

I think people see incredibly large sums of money and valuable items as being immutable, something that will endure, so they don't worry about it as much as, say, a pair of jeans they might not have tried on before buying

e: I mean, hell, people regularly equate like products that have a higher price-tag as being of higher quality by price alone

Lexicon
Jul 29, 2003

I had a beer with Stephen Harper once and now I like him.
It's the Bikeshed Problem.

JawKnee
Mar 24, 2007





You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line

Interesting, but not really what I meant. That implies that they recognize the non-trivial aspect of it and instead choose to focus on other things, I'm saying that people don't recognize that a larger price-tag doesn't imply better quality, or rather - that there's a gap in reasoning where large sums of money are concerned; how could someone market something worth so much if it's garbage?

Lexicon
Jul 29, 2003

I had a beer with Stephen Harper once and now I like him.

JawKnee posted:

Interesting, but not really what I meant. That implies that they recognize the non-trivial aspect of it and instead choose to focus on other things, I'm saying that people don't recognize that a larger price-tag doesn't imply better quality, or rather - that there's a gap in reasoning where large sums of money are concerned; how could someone market something worth so much if it's garbage?

I'm just saying that the concern applied to spending is often inversely proportionate to the values involved. These same people would likely agonize over a $1000 investment in an index ETF, say. Your point is also true, and also totally irrational. People simply cannot grasp the idea the prices have a very loose relationship to input costs.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

Throatwarbler posted:

Hey Baronjutter there's an online activex GIS tool that one could use for Vancouver Island, I used it a whole bunch a while back when property buying, but I can't remember the name now, whats it called?

Well I found it, it was called CRD atlas.

Rime
Nov 2, 2011

by Games Forum
The provinces social housing branch, BC Housing, has a brave new strategy for taking care of those less fortunate in BC:

Selling all our social housing units to the wealthy and telling the poor to go gently caress themselves!

quote:

Other public-housing properties will also be on the auction block. By March 31, 2015, B.C. Housing expects to have transferred ownership of about 115 of its approximately 350 properties to nonprofits. The rest will be disposed of over the next three years.


:downsbravo:

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Throatwarbler posted:

Well I found it, it was called CRD atlas.

A lot of muni's have their own version of this, but it's all basically the same data and photos plus a terrible interface.

namaste friends
Sep 18, 2004

by Smythe

Rime posted:

The provinces social housing branch, BC Housing, has a brave new strategy for taking care of those less fortunate in BC:

Selling all our social housing units to the wealthy and telling the poor to go gently caress themselves!



:downsbravo:

That's what you get for being a rentailure. Only the brave, proudful owners deserve housing.

Lexicon
Jul 29, 2003

I had a beer with Stephen Harper once and now I like him.

Rime posted:

The provinces social housing branch, BC Housing, has a brave new strategy for taking care of those less fortunate in BC:

Selling all our social housing units to the wealthy and telling the poor to go gently caress themselves!



:downsbravo:

At the risk of sounding like a fool – why the gently caress would they do this?

ocrumsprug
Sep 23, 2010

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Lexicon posted:

At the risk of sounding like a fool – why the gently caress would they do this?

Budgetary reasons would be my guess. Need to balance that budget yo!

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Lexicon posted:

At the risk of sounding like a fool – why the gently caress would they do this?

Short term profit and politics. Agencies like that can lose sight of their core function over time and new management/leadership begins to only care about the bottom line or short term political gain. Often agencies like this also get sabotaged by appointing ideological allies in top positions to make horrible choices like this or run the agency into the ground so it's easier to shut down/sell off later (see Canada Post)

Isentropy
Dec 12, 2010

Baronjutter posted:

run the agency into the ground so it's easier to shut down/sell off later (see Canada Post)

I wasn't paying attention to politics at the time (engineering school) but was there any sort of uproar about Deepak Chopra being appointed as Canada Post head? The writing must have obviously been on the wall...

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Isentropy posted:

I wasn't paying attention to politics at the time (engineering school) but was there any sort of uproar about Deepak Chopra being appointed as Canada Post head? The writing must have obviously been on the wall...

Yeah, but none of it reported on really. For those in the knows the writing was clearly on the wall. Canada post was running a profit and delivering an important public service, it was an efficient publicly owned entity doing its job, thus an extremely dangerous thing to exist. Deepak was clearly on a mission to go in and "run it like a business" ie bloat management and focus on corporate buzzwords instead of the core service, oops suddenly it's losing money and there needs to be cuts and rate hikes. How to stem this problem? More private sector snake oil and cargo cult management. Now it's held up as a poster child for bloated government services and how public ownership can't do anything right.

It's sort of similar to BC ferries. Take a fairly essential service, fill it with "run it like a business" poo poo heads who focus on marketing and image management instead of efficiently delivering service, and watch them run it into the ground with bloat and mismanagement. Even locally BC transit has been run by a Deepak style BC Liberal plant doing his best to gently caress everything up. None of these people ever have experience with the service they are appointed to run, all their have is maybe a management background and a strong ideological loyalty to neo-liberal economic theory (and of course the party that appointed them).

Sometimes I wish the heads of various key government services were elected, but on the flip side I never want to be like the US with judges and sheriffs being elected. But since these people are all talentless political appointees already, voting them in wouldn't be a downgrade.

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Rime
Nov 2, 2011

by Games Forum

Lexicon posted:

At the risk of sounding like a fool – why the gently caress would they do this?

In the words of Rich Coleman, Vice-Premier and Housing Minister: "The province should not be in the business of providing housing."

Citation being an interview during the Portland Hotel kerfuffle, which I can't find at the moment.

300 buildings x $1m-$50m allows the Liberals to fake the budget nicely, that's for sure.

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