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Bobbin Threadbare posted:The way I figure things, why agonize over all the horrible things that will inevitably happen when you could enjoy life a lot better by hoping for the best regardless? A pessimist may never be disappointed, but until things go bad you'll have a lot more fun. You might say I'm a Monty Python kind of optimist. If that optimist still motivates you to go out and get poo poo done to avoid said bad thing, sure. If the optimist action is to stick your fingers in your ears and shout LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR THE ONCOMING TRAIN then I'll be favoring the pessimist. Societies need both though.
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Nov 3, 2014 20:47
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double nine posted:If that optimist still motivates you to go out and get poo poo done to avoid said bad thing, sure. If the optimist action is to stick your fingers in your ears and shout LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR THE ONCOMING TRAIN then I'll be favoring the pessimist. Societies need both though. I believe the axiom is "Hope for the best and prepare for the worst."
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Nov 3, 2014 20:58
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Ok, I'm going to ask - why did you have so many pieces of music from the Homestuck albumns? I noticed it a number of times in the lecture sections.
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Nov 3, 2014 21:01
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If you skipped the dance party you missed out on some great quotes. 
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Nov 3, 2014 21:26
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Samovar posted:Ok, I'm going to ask - why did you have so many pieces of music from the Homestuck albumns? I noticed it a number of times in the lecture sections. Because I liked the music enough to get three of the albums, and when it comes time to score the corners I use whatever seems to fit the mood and the segment length. The webcomic itself lost me once I realized it had become nothing but trolls chatting endlessly back and forth, but the music is still good.
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Nov 3, 2014 21:31
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At the end you always have too much stuff. And the last area is a joke. I think the end would have worked better if there was some tension. I mean you choose the fate of the world and what do you do? Push buttons.
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Nov 3, 2014 21:32
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:The way I figure things, why agonize over all the horrible things that will inevitably happen when you could enjoy life a lot better by hoping for the best regardless? A pessimist may never be disappointed, but until things go bad you'll have a lot more fun. You might say I'm a Monty Python kind of optimist. Your "we are not perfect" segment was fantastic though, it's wonderfully opening to consider that imperfection is our greatest strength in allowing us to reinvent ideas for the future, and only joyless assholes moreso than us cannot because they strive TO be perfect. A lot of people try to be perfect standards and almost none of them can enjoy life. As for my favourite ending (I guess that makes me an optimist too?) it is certainly the lesser of three evils. Then again I never did consider the whole idea that a mortal godly being is still subject to needing food and sustenance to stay alive. And in the end it is still a victim to its own binding technology, and still requires maintainers. So in the end, there is no perfection, if we are not a perfect species and can never will be. ...that voice clip at the end thanks for doing that Hel, you also rock along with Bobbin Threadbare.  This is quite frankly going into my top three favourite LPs of all time really...though I never seen that uh...quotes ending before um, the gently caress.  Oh well, still the greatest LP right here.
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Nov 3, 2014 21:33
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Well that was a fun ride bobbin. I could never summon the will to finish deus ex and now having seen this i feel a little less ignorant (but still very ignorant). I especially enjoyed the corners as they related to the themes or the places the game used. Deux ex at the end really shows us what could be done if devs, with ambition and attention to detail, would be left to their own devices. Hope your next project is just as good Bobbin.
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Nov 3, 2014 21:40
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FinalGamer posted:Metal Gear Rising It really cracked me up that there was a small pause for the only lyric of the 3 songs ("RULES OF NATURE"). I couldn't help but smile as well seeing the ending of Fight Club up there as the first image for Tong's ending. Though it's not a hard metaphor to draw. The commentary was all recorded before we even started discussing the endings and their merits in this thread wasn't it? I just found it neat that you seemed to be joining the conversation here in the video.
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Nov 3, 2014 21:51
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Ugato posted:It really cracked me up that there was a small pause for the only lyric of the 3 songs ("RULES OF NATURE"). That's just respect, man.
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Nov 3, 2014 22:27
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RZApublican posted:And now time for the sequel Don't even joke about something like that.
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Nov 3, 2014 22:46
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Nice one. Also, I never noticed Tong at the market in the Illuminati ending. By the way, there's been various attempts at non-constant speed of light theories. I think they've been tainted by Young Earth Creationist attempts to develop a working cosmology using it though.
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Nov 3, 2014 22:58
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As an aside, do Page and the ex-head Illuminati have the same voice actor? He sounded very similar at the end. Also, it should be mentioned that even if most people don't need to inflict suffering on others to feel happy there will always be people who prefer to be in different political and social environments. There are some people who are much happier when part of a structured hierarchy and others who are much more egalitarian in outlook. I don't think Btw, as I essentially stated from a political perspective I'd have definitely put the Monarch parallel with the new godhead rather than the cabal. Having re-watched the cutscenes though it definitely is the one which would unleash a technological revolution, certainly over the first and most likely over the second. I suppose ultimately the game did make me think how little control these favoured few actually had. Ultimately they couldn't stop the world from changing. In any case though, excellent LP and thanks for the lectures.  As an aside, would you agree with the statement rather than perhaps sentiment of the great Dr. Pangloss? [edit] Random aside, Gibran (guy who wrote the first end quote) has a nice phrase on his gravestone (apparently, [citation needed]...): "a word I want to see written on my grave: I am alive like you, and I am standing beside you. Close your eyes and look around, you will see me in front of you." Munin fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Nov 3, 2014 |
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Nov 3, 2014 23:00
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This has been one hell of a ride, Bobbin.
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Nov 3, 2014 23:11
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Great LP, been watching like a hawk for each episode. Sad to see it end but it went out on a high. And ignore these guys, don't do the sequel. (Do the Nameless Mod instead.)
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Nov 3, 2014 23:28
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AstroWhale posted:I mean you choose the fate of the world and what do you do? Push buttons. I think this is ultimately a limitation of the genre (and also the fact that Deus Ex has shoddy bosses). When you get down to it, whenever you make a decision in a video game, whether it changes the ending or changes your dialog option, you the player are always simply pressing a button. At least in Deus Ex you have to jump through a few hoops before you can press any of the buttons; in Human Revolution all you get is an AI asking you how to spin the big news story and literally opening up a set of four buttons, three of which are directly in front of you. Munin posted:As an aside, do Page and the ex-head Illuminati have the same voice actor? He sounded very similar at the end. Bob Page's VA also voices Ford Schick (Smuggler's friend) and an anonymous cop. The guy who voices Lucius De Beers also did Manderley, Jock, and Tracer Tong. And regarding Dr. Pangloss, I'd say I agree with him in a very technical sense. This is the best of all possible worlds, but that's only because it is the only of all possible worlds. It is therefore also the worst of all possible worlds and assigning any direct sort of value is basically pointless. poo poo happens, so cultivate your garden.
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Nov 3, 2014 23:29
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I wish all modern games would have secret developer quotes, its the one thing I wish all modern games still had. Fantastic LP Bobbin. Throughout this year after coming home from a twelve hour study day, like clockwork, it made my Tuesdays. I love educational and skillful LPs the best and this delivers better than most. I'm sure you're already aware of it but in case you aren't, there's a thread in the Creative Convention on how to market your self published books a hell of a lot better LINK if you wanted to try and market your book better or for any future self publishing projects. Definitely looking forward to your next LP.
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Nov 3, 2014 23:32
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The endings are kinda funny because they all make perfect sense if you assume that Tong/Everett/Helios are bullshitting JC and simply using him for their own ends. Everett is the simplest of these, dude openly wants back in power and wants control of Page's shiny new toys. JC does this for him. And what does Everett do then? Gives vague promises that the Illuminati will make everything fine at some unspecified point in the future. How generous of him. Who is to say that this "eventually" doesn't actually mean "never"? Helios is a similar case. It wants to be free of Page's control right now and as mentioned JC is the most expedient choice, so it stages its own coup against Page. What it actually wants to do isstill unclear, but it does seem to be telling JC what it thinks JC wants to hear. So once again, JC is being used in exchange for vague promises. Tong is a bit more subtle, but his motivation could be that he has the most to lose from the other possible endings. Everett would take over the world and would brook no competition. Helios already declared the Triads illegal and thus would destroy Tong's power base if it took over. So what if the net goes down? Tong is sitting pretty in Hong Kong with the united Triads at his back, he could carve out his own petty empire no problem. Dude's a mob boss after all, why would he actually give a gently caress about some dark age utopia? Maybe it's just all in my head, but I think it'd be kind of fitting that a game about conspiracies would end with lies and deciet.
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Nov 3, 2014 23:34
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Excellent LP from start to finish Bobbin, it was a pleasure watching every Monday. Don't know if it's been answered in the thread already, but are there any plans to do Human Revolution or, god forbid, Invisible War?
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Nov 3, 2014 23:36
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:And regarding Dr. Pangloss, I'd say I agree with him in a very technical sense. This is the best of all possible worlds, but that's only because it is the only of all possible worlds. It is therefore also the worst of all possible worlds and assigning any direct sort of value is basically pointless. poo poo happens, so cultivate your garden. Comes down to the optimist versus pessimist thing again.
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Nov 3, 2014 23:51
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Bobbin isn't responding to the statements/questions about playing Invisible War 
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Nov 3, 2014 23:55
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That was a pretty solid finale for Deus Ex, and thought-provoking to boot. However, I feel that you spend too much time establishing that the universe/universal behavior is not perfect since that is kind of a meaningless claim. What would make a perfect universe? Universes just comprise certain behaviors or rules of a sort, but you can't call rules perfect or imperfect. Sure, they may prohibit behaviors we would like, but that is just a product of our perception and desires, not the rules. I do like the discussion of our existence being the result of stuff that happened to make the perfect circumstances for life, as that seems to indicate the perfection requires context.
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Nov 4, 2014 00:28
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Well done, sir: that was a great ending to a fantastic LP.  I'm looking forward to whatever comes next, be it Invisible War, reuniting the gang for another party-based RPG, or something else entirely. radintorov fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Nov 4, 2014 |
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Nov 4, 2014 00:28
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Looking forward to the next LP, Bobbin. This was was pretty really good. I'd never had the patience to play Deus Ex myself, so this is pretty much the most perfect way I could ask to experience it.
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Nov 4, 2014 00:34
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Nice LP, might need to chillax a bit though.
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Nov 4, 2014 01:09
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Man, you really liked using scenes from Poets of the Fall - Carnival of Rust? To be fair though that song is fantastic and the film clip is great. Anyway man fantastic LP I always enjoyed my Tuesdays after Uni, coming home and sitting down to watch this. I'm looking forward to what you have cooked up next.
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Nov 4, 2014 01:13
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Nemo Somen posted:That was a pretty solid finale for Deus Ex, and thought-provoking to boot. However, I feel that you spend too much time establishing that the universe/universal behavior is not perfect since that is kind of a meaningless claim. What would make a perfect universe? Universes just comprise certain behaviors or rules of a sort, but you can't call rules perfect or imperfect. Sure, they may prohibit behaviors we would like, but that is just a product of our perception and desires, not the rules. I do like the discussion of our existence being the result of stuff that happened to make the perfect circumstances for life, as that seems to indicate the perfection requires context. If perfectionism wasn't a thing, then I would agree that I spent too much time refuting it. But it is, and, well, I should know. I mean you did just watch me dump ten months of weekends into making a freaking video game playthrough. radintorov posted:Well done, sir: that was a great ending to a fantastic LP. I do not plan to LP either of the other Deus Exes, and even if I did it would not be in the same format as this one; neither has the sort of depth and breadth of backstory and references to sustain Corners like the original can. Besides, I have no real desire to top myself again and I am definitely in the mood for a break. I will say this, though: my next project will most likely be a sequel to something I've LP'ed in the past... Bonus: If you're wondering about the dance party at the end, what you actually saw was two separate bonuses you can only find by cheating. The dance party itself is "Ending_4" which you can only reach by teleporting, and the quote reel is an option on the cheat menu which you can access by enabling cheats and then typing "legend" into the chat.
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Nov 4, 2014 01:20
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Nicely done all around.
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Nov 4, 2014 01:33
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Awesome LP Bobbin, it was a very interesting stuff and I learned a quite bunch of amount of stuff from watching it. In fact I was looking forward more to your lectures at the end than the gameplay, much better than the stuff you watch on TV.
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Nov 4, 2014 01:58
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Thanks Bobbin, really enjoyed this LP. I mostly skipped the gameplay parts of things and actually just watched for the lectures however. I had seen enough DE to know how the game goes, but getting more depth into the theories and influences around it was certainly enjoyable. You taught me a lot of fun side stuff I never knew. Also, I got to use the Cinncinnatus information in a seminar, which apparently my seminar tutor thought was cool enough of a mention that my lecturer knew I said it in the next lecture and was impressed. I wish I could have credited you as being the reason I knew it, but it would be really silly to say "Yeah, I know it from this web series about the video game Deus Ex." Thanks for the ride. Probably the best LP I have ever watched from a purely educational point of view.
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Nov 4, 2014 02:19
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An amazing lets play! I think my mondays will be a little less magical now this one has ended. I may have to look at some of your other LPs now. I've played through this game enough times to see most of the hidden bits but this run through still surprised me. The corners were a great bit of education as well. Thank you for all the great work you put into this.
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Nov 4, 2014 02:44
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Thank you, Bobbin, for literally hours of entertainment and education. I've enjoyed your previous LPs, but this one was an entirely new beast. If you continue to LP, don't let the success and content of this one act as a block. You could guest on build engine games from here on out and we'd still love ya.
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Nov 4, 2014 02:58
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I'm still in disagreement with the nature of the Tong ending, even if Bobbin (and various others) have made excellent points against it, I still feel it's being caught in a negative spin that makes it seem like it's worse than it is. Without the internet those in power only have the agreement between individuals to back up their legitimacy, whether they are governmental or corporate bodies. The infrastructure of unspoken agreement that what you are being told is accurate and true, your belief that your leader was fairly elected or that the CEO is worth billions of dollars or that a company owns X assets, has been collapsed. All it takes is for someone down the line to disagree with the old guard's assertions, that they own some property or right to lead, and they will be forced to defend it. Effectively the rich and powerful have access to a fraction of their resources and are forced into conflict with anyone else capable of seizing opportunity. So now everyone is squabbling over what they have, what has that achieved and where do we go from there? That relates into the second point I had issue with, that the Dark Age ending was backwards thinking. I believe it to be the exact opposite. Strike the slate clean, let go of the hangups and baggage of history that reaches into the future to the detriment of all. An end to the current old boys clubs and dynastic power structures, maybe they will just be replaced by the same thing just with a new set of faces but I would like to hope that humanity would come up with something new. I don't think people would just try all the old ways again, not for very long anyway and even if they did I don't think it would be possible to truly enforce them. We had democracy and freedom before we had the internet, why should we be incapable of it if the internet came and went? I supposed that's the crux of my leanings towards the dark age ending, that what comes after might be better than the other two choices. Regardless, great LP and great game. I'm kind of itching to replay it with that shifter mod or some kind of gimmick run, I remember an article in PC gamer where the author described going through the game without ever using the inventory or augs. Only thing he could do was use the environment to make progress, got pretty far into it as well. EDIT: I am a huge turbo nerd who should learn to watch the entire video before he starts writing a desperate rebuttal. CheeseThief fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Nov 4, 2014 |
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Nov 4, 2014 03:38
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CheeseThief posted:I'm still in disagreement with the nature of the Tong ending, even if Bobbin (and various others) have made excellent points against it, I still feel it's being caught in a negative spin that makes it seem like it's worse than it is. This seems like the kind of thinking that Bobbin explicitly mentioned; the idea that somehow things were better in the past, in spite of the evidences. Yes we had democracy and freedom in the past; but do not most people have more freedom now than they ever did in the past? Less than a century ago people were being murdered because they didn't want to be essentially slaves in the coal mines. Things may not be perfect, but they are certainly better in many ways. The rich and powerful will lose a far smaller percentage of their resources than the everyman will. Without any kind of global connection, the poor will have to rely even more on the rich and powerful. You mention someone down the line disagreeing with the old guard - that will be dealt with the same way it always has. With a group of powerful and loyal soldiers that are paid and treated well off of the backs of the many poor and weak. Sending us back to the dark ages will be almost literally that, just with more modern weapons. And who do you think is more prepared to defend themselves: the farmers or the Triads?
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Nov 4, 2014 03:46
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Garrand posted:This seems like the kind of thinking that Bobbin explicitly mentioned; the idea that somehow things were better in the past, in spite of the evidences. Yes we had democracy and freedom in the past; but do not most people have more freedom now than they ever did in the past? Less than a century ago people were being murdered because they didn't want to be essentially slaves in the coal mines. Things may not be perfect, but they are certainly better in many ways. I can only refer back to one of my earlier posts, from about when the previous update, where I don't believe the dark age is that much of a sacrifice of what we have. The tools that provide your greater freedom in a modern context still exist and where they are destroyed by the fall will be replaced, the advantage is the tools that oppress you will be taken from those using them on the greatest scale, the hope is the tools will be put to better use by those that come after. My meaning behind "democracy and freedom in the past" was to argue against the idea society would collapse into desperate serfdom, not that we need to return to a previous era of history. I'm not for turning back the clock, I'm for cleaning the slate. Garrand posted:
The triads doing battle in the cities with each other in turf wars versus the rural farmers who have the vested interest of their local community, of EVERY community in the area? The land, equipment and knowledge of agriculture would be far too valuable to waste in petty intimidation or sabotage of another controlling power. A man with a gun would be cheap, give him a meal and he's yours, a man with a degree in agricultural science is the key to your survival.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:28
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CheeseThief posted:Effectively the rich and powerful have access to a fraction of their resources and are forced into conflict with anyone else capable of seizing opportunity. So now everyone is squabbling over what they have, what has that achieved and where do we go from there? That relates into the second point I had issue with, that the Dark Age ending was backwards thinking. I believe it to be the exact opposite. Strike the slate clean, let go of the hangups and baggage of history that reaches into the future to the detriment of all. An end to the current old boys clubs and dynastic power structures, maybe they will just be replaced by the same thing just with a new set of faces but I would like to hope that humanity would come up with something new. I don't think people would just try all the old ways again, not for very long anyway and even if they did I don't think it would be possible to truly enforce them. The trouble is that destroying the internet does not strike the slate clean. Everyone still remembers what happened yesterday. Everyone still remembers who's paying their salary and who needs to be paid to keep the water on, and while there will be chaos as everyone has to use alternate means to buy and sell goods, most folks will be inclined to let things stand the way they were before. It's easier that way. It's safer that way. It's true large corporations and governments will have trouble keeping track of every isolated outpost, but it's not like radio waves have stopped existing. It's not like cars and trucks and helicopters stopped working just because the GPS signal went down (assuming it went down), and Jock is proof that vehicles are not fully automated in Deus Ex's 2052. Security forces may decide to perform a coup over their corporate or governmental leadership, but technically they could have done that before, and besides, who would that help? Certainly not the little people. The trouble with destroying the internet is that while the Illuminati may operate on influence and information control, most corporations and especially governments have a whole lot more than that going for them. Fort Knox is still safe and sound, and I doubt the troops guarding it will suddenly decide that they're on their own just because it's harder to get in contact with Washington. Destroying the internet won't even wipe debts clean, since each individual computer should still function normally and if the government operates a cloud then the server would most certainly be on a government site. Transaction rates may slow down to 1980's speeds, but that's still pretty fast. And all of this is assuming that people will not build another internet which, since all the servers and wires are still in place, could be up and running within a few years. The trouble with destroying the internet is that it will not eliminate the old boys clubs--not all of them, at least. Instead, it will isolate communities from each other and prevent them from organizing, exactly the sort of situation that leads to serfdom and literal slavery. Forget about wage slavery, we're talking the actual buying and selling of unpaid individuals without their consent. And if that doesn't happen, it'll be because alternate lines of communication will be opened and people will be able to organize again. And if that happens, then what the hell was the point of destroying the internet?
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Nov 4, 2014 04:29
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This has been thrilling all the way through. Almost every episode, I learned something new about the game, even in levels I've played many times (like Liberty Island). I nominate this series for the Greatest LP of All Time.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:33
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:The trouble is that destroying the internet does not strike the slate clean. Everyone still remembers what happened yesterday. Everyone still remembers who's paying their salary and who needs to be paid to keep the water on, and while there will be chaos as everyone has to use alternate means to buy and sell goods, most folks will be inclined to let things stand the way they were before. It's easier that way. It's safer that way. It's true large corporations and governments will have trouble keeping track of every isolated outpost, but it's not like radio waves have stopped existing. It's not like cars and trucks and helicopters stopped working just because the GPS signal went down (assuming it went down), and Jock is proof that vehicles are not fully automated in Deus Ex's 2052. Security forces may decide to perform a coup over their corporate or governmental leadership, but technically they could have done that before, and besides, who would that help? Certainly not the little people. The oversight there is that there have been successful revolutions in the past; maybe not often, but they do happen. In the world of Deus Ex, it's globalization and the internet that has enabled the kind of complete control necessary for an inescapable oppressive government. Even if Tong's ending doesn't cause all of the power structures to collapse (and I'm pretty sure it will do a number on them), it opens the door for the smaller scale governments where people can understand, and change, who's in charge. If Bob Page or Morgan Everett rule the world from the shadows, there's no real way to stop them, but if the triads take over Hong Kong and the people don't like how they handle things they can rise up, or change them from within. It's not a panacea; you'd probably end up with a bunch of corrupt city states and a few genuine bastions of enlightenment. And unless people have learned better, they'll just make the same mistakes all over again. But it's not as simple as just turning back the clock and reliving the "golden age", either.
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Nov 4, 2014 04:49
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJW8StyJxRU
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Nov 4, 2014 05:00
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This was a glorious LP to have been watching from the start! Thanks you for all the work you've put into analysing one of my favourite games, as well as identifying some references the game made that I never really got, or paused to consider. There has been touching moments, others that provoked some thoughts. Thanks you for taking your time to make all of this. You may have dealt some nice new ideas into some others. As well as suggest some great books and comics. Now I'm gonna have to track some of them down. Darnit.
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Nov 4, 2014 05:01
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