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Basil Hayden posted:My understanding is that, while there are dialects within the area that might probably qualify as divergent enough from one another to be considered separate languages under some kind of objective mutual intelligibility criterion, the standards of all four national languages (Montenegrin is a language now!) are all based on Štokavian. Not really. All of the languages are 100% mutually intelligible, as clearly as American English is to British English. Montenegrin (with all the other dialects of the Serbo-Croatian language) is now considered a language because of nationalist movements, not because the linguistic community seriously considers it a separate language.
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Nov 3, 2014 03:27
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made of bees posted:Noah Webster tried. I think the deal was racists Webster was but one of a number of individuals who tried to make American its own language. He was the most successful in so far as his dictionary stuck and influenced generations of educators, unlike his competitors who tried to promote bizarre alternate alphabets to "standardize" American spelling as different from that of English. Even Benjamin Franklin gave it a shot. Jill Lepore's A is for American builds on this argument I believe, and focuses on language politics of the early USA (using Morse, Webster, and Sequoyah as case studies) but I have yet to get around to reading it to be able to give more than a pointer. The crazy alphabet proponents did end up inadvertently giving us one thing in the end (though it owes far more to like-minded spelling reformers in England): The International Phonetic Alphabet. EDIT: Ironically, though I linked it as an example of an American attempt at spelling reform, Comstock's alphabet (linked above), while promoted strongly in the US for US education in the mid 1800s, is largely a pretty straightforward copy of Pitman's Phonotype that also (ultimately) led to the IPA. That said, while Comstock's alphabet was the most successful of the failed attempts to replace the Roman alphabet in early America, there were many others like him who developed their own alphabets without turning to "pirating" British work. Comstock's alphabet was simply the easiest to get a link to quickly (owing to it being the most successful failed attempt, as I said) ComradeCosmobot fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Nov 3, 2014 |
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Nov 3, 2014 03:39
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ing about the superiority of the Anglo-Saxon race over everyone else won out over nationalism.
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So only a patch of Montenegrins say that they speak Montenegrin, with most of them saying "Nah, it's Serbian"?
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Nov 3, 2014 03:45
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VerdantSquire posted:
They're different religions though thanks to the Romans and Ottomans, which is the sticking point. Croats are Catholic, Serbs are Orthodox, Bosnians are Muslim. Oh and a chunk of Serbia speaks an actual different language and is Muslim but still politically stuck to Serbia (Kosovo). I'm not sure why Montenegro exists though, it appears to basically be part of Serbia that decided they wanted nothing to do with the other Serbians? What's the story behind that?
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Nov 3, 2014 08:08
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VerdantSquire posted:
All it shows is that in this particular case the main divide is over religion and history rather than language. And if current trends continue, language will be an additional signifier of identity for former Yugoslavs in the future. Precisely because they themselves feel that the two are or should be linked. Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Nov 3, 2014 |
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Nov 3, 2014 08:18
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icantfindaname posted:They're different religions though thanks to the Romans and Ottomans, which is the sticking point. Croats are Catholic, Serbs are Orthodox, Bosnians are Muslim. Oh and a chunk of Serbia speaks an actual different language and is Muslim but still politically stuck to Serbia (Kosovo). Montenegro has long been a separate entity within various political unions going back in the ottoman days. You could think of it as sorta like why Germany and Austria never formed a modern nation state outside of Hitler. Plus Montenegro is very small and rather isolated. Only got like 670k people, barely more than Staten Island. I believe it started out as an independent dukedom in the 1400s.
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Nov 3, 2014 08:25
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Phlegmish posted:And if current trends continue, language will be an additional signifier of identity for former Yugoslavs in the future. In the age of mass media, though?
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Nov 3, 2014 08:25
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SaltyJesus posted:Again, it's kinda hard to overemphasize how similar they are. You'll likely find more dialectical difference between any two random villages in Spain, Italy, Germany, England, or even the US than between literary Serbian and Croatian. During the nineties there was a large push from the government to artificially change some words, so that Croatian is less like Serbian and more unique. That thankfully died with our El Presidente in 1999, and even ultra-nationalists were snickering at the absurdity of it. Some examples: Airplane - It had a perfectly good official word "zrakoplov" and unofficial "avion". Serbian word is "vazduhoplov" and it has the exact same meaning as "zrakoplov" (air sailing). The new proposed word was to be "zrakomlat" (uhh, air beater?). Helicopter ("helikopter", which is a loanword) was going to be "vrtolet" (spin-o-flight  ), it was just bizzare.The languages now will diversify more and more, but due to natural evolution, not artificial one. Croatia really was a semi-presidental dictatorship up until 2000.
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Nov 3, 2014 08:45
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Nintendo Kid posted:dukedom Duchy.  More properly it should be Principality, for whatever reason that tends to be the transliteration to English in Montenegro's case. Or Prince-Bishopric during the Ottoman period, because empires are complicated. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Nov 3, 2014 |
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Nov 3, 2014 08:48
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Disco Infiva posted:During the nineties there was a large push from the government to artificially change some words, so that Croatian is less like Serbian and more unique. That thankfully died with our El Presidente in 1999, and even ultra-nationalists were snickering at the absurdity of it. In Serbia there was a joke that you guys started calling belts "okolopojasni pantalonodržač" (aroundthewaist pantsholder)  icantfindaname posted:I'm not sure why Montenegro exists though, it appears to basically be part of Serbia that decided they wanted nothing to do with the other Serbians? The feeling was mutual, iirc some polls before the independence referendum showed there was as much support for them leaving from Serbs as there was from Montenegrins. 
SaltyJesus fucked around with this message at 09:31 on Nov 3, 2014 |
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Nov 3, 2014 09:23
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SaltyJesus posted:In Serbia there was a joke that you guys started calling belts "okolopojasni pantalonodržač" (aroundthewaist pantsholder) Okolopojasni hlačedržač thank you very much 
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Nov 3, 2014 09:40
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The funny thing about the divide is that I'd have less trouble talking to a Croat from Zagreb than I would with my late great-grandfather who was a Serb from Croatia speaking a mix of Ikavian and Ekavian dialect.SaltyJesus posted:The feeling was mutual, iirc some polls before the independence referendum showed there was as much support for them leaving from Serbs as there was from Montenegrins. Nobody wanted to let Milo Đukanović have an opportunity to interact with Serbian politics any longer. He's been doing the president->prime minister->president routine in Montenegro since 1991.
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Nov 3, 2014 09:49
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Disco Infiva posted:
That's actually what it is in Russian  (Well, vertolet, but same difference, and for all I know the 'e' is implied)
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Nov 3, 2014 13:26
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Disco Infiva posted:Helicopter ("helikopter", which is a loanword) was going to be "vrtolet" (spin-o-flight Eh, "helicopter" is from Greek words meaning "spiral wing," so "spinning flight" doesn't really seem any worse.
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Nov 3, 2014 17:42
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Nov 3, 2014 18:41
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SaltyJesus posted:"okolopojasni pantalonodržač Disco Infiva posted:Okolopojasni hlačedržač thank you very much More importantly, how is it that human beings with lips and mouths, rather than mandibles and chelicerae, are able to speak a language that consists of 90% consonants? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlOoSsfU6cM
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Nov 3, 2014 18:55
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Peso and peseta derive from "pendo" just like "pound" does.
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Nov 3, 2014 19:14
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The fact that there are two alphabets for Serbo-Croatian creates an interesting opporutunity for research on the connection between written and spoken languages. Haskins Laboratory did some research on the topic in the 70s. I'm not a linguist but it could be worth checking out for people interested in the topic with a bit of background. One name to look for on Google Scholar is "MT Turvey".
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Nov 3, 2014 19:44
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DrSunshine posted:More importantly, how is it that human beings with lips and mouths, rather than mandibles and chelicerae, are able to speak a language that consists of 90% consonants? In Serbo-Croatian the letter r can serve as a vowel in a tight spot. Prst (finger) krst (cross) čvrst (solid) crkva (church) mrkva (carrot). The now extinct Ubykh language is incredible. Wiki posted:The Ubykh language is ergative and agglutinative, with polypersonal verbal agreement and a very large number of distinct consonants, but only two phonemically distinct vowels. With around eighty consonants it has one of the largest inventories of consonants in the world,[3] the largest number for any language without clicks. SaltyJesus fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Nov 3, 2014 |
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Nov 3, 2014 20:09
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SurgicalOntologist posted:The fact that there are two alphabets for Serbo-Croatian creates an interesting opporutunity for research on the connection between written and spoken languages. Haskins Laboratory did some research on the topic in the 70s. I'm not a linguist but it could be worth checking out for people interested in the topic with a bit of background. One name to look for on Google Scholar is "MT Turvey". It's a bad place to start such research, because Vuk's Cyrillic alphabet was made intentionally to have a 1:1 relation between letters and produced sounds, and Ljudevit Gaj's Latin alphabet basically did the same, except with Latin letters. It's basically what you'd get if you let linguists make an alphabet from scratch.
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Nov 3, 2014 20:18
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It rules so hard. It's almost functionally impossible to misspell or misread a word. It's also one of the phonetically most complete alphabets in Europe. Standard Serbian doesn't have the sound τζ makes in Greek (like in tzatziki), but in my grandmother's village they pronounced z like that, which is kinda interesting because the only geographically close language that has it afaik is Greek which ain't that close.
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Nov 3, 2014 20:27
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my dad posted:It's a bad place to start such research, because Vuk's Cyrillic alphabet was made intentionally to have a 1:1 relation between letters and produced sounds, and Ljudevit Gaj's Latin alphabet basically did the same, except with Latin letters. It's basically what you'd get if you let linguists make an alphabet from scratch. That doesn't make it bad for research, it makes it less suitable for some research questions but more suitable for others. For example, that fact was relied upon to demonstrate that findings from research on English speakers/readers does not generalze as well as many hoped: http://www.haskins.yale.edu/sr/sr073/SR073_02.pdf It also allows for interesting experiments like testing "letter strings that can be assigned both a Roman and a Cyrillic alphabet reading": http://web.haskins.yale.edu/Reprints/HL0410.pdf
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Nov 3, 2014 20:37
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 Basically, the green bits were used as a base for standard Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin. The orange bits gave us standard Serbian. All the rest is hilarious hick speak nobody really understands and will die out within a generation due to the mass media. Fake edit: if we were to have a Serbo-Croatian goonmeet, we would understand each other perfectly. Edit: just to make a point. Zagreb is in the middle of the Kajkavian area in Croatia. It's a million people city and fewer and fewer people speak Kajkavian every year. The media have made Štokavian the standard. You are not supposed to speak Kajkavian in business situations because it makes you look uneducated and incompetent. My kids, born in Zagreb, speak standard Štokavian with slang elements. The other dialects are for old people. Take the plunge! Okay! fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Nov 3, 2014 |
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Nov 3, 2014 20:38
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SurgicalOntologist posted:The fact that there are two alphabets for Serbo-Croatian creates an interesting opporutunity for research on the connection between written and spoken languages. Haskins Laboratory did some research on the topic in the 70s. I'm not a linguist but it could be worth checking out for people interested in the topic with a bit of background. One name to look for on Google Scholar is "MT Turvey". You might be interested in the Hindi and Urdu poles of the Hindustani continuum. They aren't as tightly intelligible as the Yugo dialects, but mutually intelligible until you get to the extremes. Urdu uses a modified Persian script, while Hindi has a Devanagari script. Urdu draws heavily on Persian; Hindi is more faithful to Sanskrit. An educated person from Lahore will understand a doctor from Delhi better than the doctor will understand a Urdu-speaking Muslim from Telangana. None of them will understand a word of Telugu from Telangana. India is loving awesome for languages.
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Nov 3, 2014 21:01
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mcustic posted:
I don't think this interpretation is quite right, even as a simplification. Ijekavian is spoken by almost a half of all Serbs. Most notably, Vuk Karadžić, the guy who reformed the Serbian language, was an Ijekavian speaker.
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Nov 3, 2014 21:07
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TheImmigrant posted:You might be interested in the Hindi and Urdu poles of the Hindustani continuum. They aren't as tightly intelligible as the Yugo dialects, but mutually intelligible until you get to the extremes. Urdu uses a modified Persian script, while Hindi has a Devanagari script. Urdu draws heavily on Persian; Hindi is more faithful to Sanskrit. An educated person from Lahore will understand a doctor from Delhi better than the doctor will understand a Urdu-speaking Muslim from Telangana. None of them will understand a word of Telugu from Telangana. That's funny there's someone in my dept. doing his thesis on Indian languages/scripts. I've never talked to him about his work but from what I heard he made a novel discovery that's expected to make waves in the literature. I'll try to see if anything's published yet.
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Nov 3, 2014 21:12
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Is the discovery that all the different scripts are part of a millennia old trolling exercise against the rest of the world and they all write in a single straightforward unified script when nobody outside the subcontinent is looking?
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Nov 3, 2014 21:32
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TheImmigrant posted:You might be interested in the Hindi and Urdu poles of the Hindustani continuum. They aren't as tightly intelligible as the Yugo dialects, but mutually intelligible until you get to the extremes. Urdu uses a modified Persian script, while Hindi has a Devanagari script. Urdu draws heavily on Persian; Hindi is more faithful to Sanskrit. An educated person from Lahore will understand a doctor from Delhi better than the doctor will understand a Urdu-speaking Muslim from Telangana. None of them will understand a word of Telugu from Telangana.  http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/karten/indi/indicm.htm Indeed it is. mcustic posted:Fake edit: if we were to have a Serbo-Croatian goonmeet, we would understand each other perfectly. This would be the best goonmeet once rakija starts flowing.
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Nov 3, 2014 21:34
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Until a Gypsy Albanian Muslim walks in.
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Nov 3, 2014 21:41
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my dad posted:I don't think this interpretation is quite right, even as a simplification. Ijekavian is spoken by almost a half of all Serbs. Most notably, Vuk Karadžić, the guy who reformed the Serbian language, was an Ijekavian speaker. I'll admit I am not that knowledgeable about Serbian, although I am aware of many Krajina Serbs living in Serbia today and still speaking their native ijekavian dialect. But it is true for Croatia. Every large urban center is in the process of switching to standardized Shtokavian Ijekavian language.
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Nov 3, 2014 22:03
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SaltyJesus posted:In Serbo-Croatian the letter r can serve as a vowel in a tight spot. Prst (finger) krst (cross) čvrst (solid) crkva (church) mrkva (carrot). Okay, confession: After looking at the maps four posts prior to this, I read that last bit as "the largest number for any language without dicks."
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Nov 3, 2014 23:04
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 Exactly what you expect it to be
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Nov 3, 2014 23:30
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Dick size?
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Nov 3, 2014 23:32
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Kurtofan posted:Dick size? Bingo. I am a literal child so I think it's funny to compare it with this map:  E: The Serbian average is 0.01 cm from being in the light green category. SaltyJesus fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Nov 3, 2014 |
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Nov 3, 2014 23:38
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Kurtofan posted:Dick size? self measured?
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Nov 3, 2014 23:40
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Hogge Wild posted:self measured?
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Nov 3, 2014 23:50
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Letmebefrank posted:
drat, Hungary, what the gently caress.
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Nov 3, 2014 23:58
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BBJoey posted:drat, Hungary, what the gently caress. Hungary got the better end of the Finno-Ugric genepool.
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Nov 4, 2014 00:10
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BBJoey posted:drat, Hungary, what the gently caress. The real reason behind the Hungarian-Romanian conflict revealed.
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Nov 4, 2014 00:22
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Does it really matter? Unless we assume some cultures are far more prone to lying/exaggeration, the overall trend should still hold. Machismo is a thing, so... possibly? Nearly 100% variance between the min/max is surprising, anyways.
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