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asdf32 posted:You can't escape pollution. In some cases it's globe spanning, (CO2, ozone depletion), in other cases it travels great distances. whi The solutions he puts forth only work in a world where there's direct cause and effect, and the impacts of my actions can't be felt 50 miles away, not to even think about half-the-world away. That's the general problem I see with Libertarianism. It can only work, if it were to work, on a small scale. The minute you start expanding things to the world, things start to collapse because the forces that they try to explain action with disappear. It requires people to be invested in a small community, and these things don't matter.
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Nov 4, 2014 06:15
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Muscle Tracer posted:Have we ever gotten an answer from Jrod on why the DRO with the thickest jackboots and heaviest truncheons won't just start up Mongol Horde 2.0? Or are we pretending that, faced with being either a) raped and pillaged or b) pressed into military service and/or indenture, rational actors are going to pick the former because Non Aggression? Stephen Molyneux posted:The second problem is the fear that a particular DRO will grow in size and stature to the point where it takes on all the features and properties of a new State. TLDR: That would never happen because the DRO system would be so 
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Nov 4, 2014 06:19
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Cemetry Gator posted:The solutions he puts forth only work in a world where there's direct cause and effect, and the impacts of my actions can't be felt 50 miles away, not to even think about half-the-world away. I think my personal favorite example is Chernobyl. The people in the immediate radius absolutely have an ironclad claim, either for wrongful death or being forced out of their homes. On the other hand, people more than fifty miles out? Their kids might have a claim, assuming they can afford to test them, and the kids show inflated amounts of isotopes in their inevitable thyroid issues. But someone who gets cancer forty years out? Prove it. Prove that it was Chernobyl corp, and more importantly, prove it while dying of cancer, because you probably need that money to pay for medical bills that had nothing to do with you. VitalSigns posted:TLDR: That would never happen because the DRO system would be so I especially love how he pretends that your typical DRO is going to largely consist of bureaucrats. I'm sure they will probably outnumber the armed soldiers in the DRO's employ... but lets not forget that the DRO has a large number of soldiers in its employ. Caros fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Nov 4, 2014 |
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Nov 4, 2014 06:29
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OK, so let's assume the libertarian revolution occurs and is a resounding success. The first generation of liberteers are able to establish a functional society and a handfull of DROs established to cater to their needs. However, as has been mentioned, DRO membership, while voluntary, is required to meaningfully survive within this new society. Now let's assume you are the offspring of a liberteer. You are also a believer in the great Creedo Liberastrian, but you fundamentally disagree with the foundational agreements offered by the available DROs. For instance, you agree that they should reduce their enforcement of low levels of pollution, they should require greater membership dues to keep out the riff-raff, and should discourage people of color from perpetuating their inferior genes. What do you do, as you must join a DRO to survive, but there are none that cater to your needs? Do you start your own DRO? What if no one else joins, and no other DRO chooses to work with you? Do you strike out on your own, forsaking all your family ties and everything that you know and understand to face uncertain survival? Do you join an existing DRO, and attempt to lobby for a change of policy via democracy? Or do you suck it up and accept the DRO your parents use because of lack of options?
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Nov 4, 2014 06:44
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Cemetry Gator posted:Do you understand why any of the things you discuss come into existence? Do you actually any of the things you discuss? Because your understanding of intellectual property... well, it's loving idiotic. You should not be so dismissive unless or until you have reckoned with the libertarian literature against intellectual property. It has in fact never been proven that IP increases overall wealth in society, and nearly all conclusive studies have found that IP costs more than it is worth. So even from a utilitarian perspective you would have to concede that IP is a negative drain on the innovation and technological progress of society. Here is an article for you to start with, authored by Stephan Kinsella. Kinsella has done far more work on IP than almost any other libertarian author and his arguments must be confronted before you think about dismissing the anti-IP position. http://mises.org/daily/3682
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Nov 4, 2014 06:45
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jrodefeld, please address Caros. You might lose all credibility if you ignore him for three threads .
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Nov 4, 2014 06:46
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Caros posted:I especially love how he pretends that your typical DRO is going to largely consist of bureaucrats. I'm sure they will probably outnumber the armed soldiers in the DRO's employ... but lets not forget that the DRO has a large number of soldiers in its employ. Uh, I think we can all agree that mises.org could out-debate the Catalan Company any day of the week, so there's no reason for spreading FUD around here. Ever heard of a little thing I like to call "the pen is mightier than the sword"? Things are well in hand. (Also my dad was on army exercises in the fallout area of Chernobyl when it happened; gonna sue the crap out of someone over that if I mutated overnight.)
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Nov 4, 2014 06:50
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Why the hell do you think anyone's going to be persuaded by mises.org links? Especially leftist-rear end D&D? Even if I thought libertarianism was correct and the best thing for humanity I'd still not even touch mises.org as a debate tool. I'm not asking this sarcastically or rhetorically. I'm genuinely interested in the thought process behind you posting mises.org links. It betrays a lack of self-awareness that, while not surprising at all, is still shocking.
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Nov 4, 2014 06:53
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Caros posted:No one called you on this, but it is factually untrue. Also all those wars we fought against the Natives and Mexico that gave us a shitload of incredibly profitable land that eventually generated crazy huge markets on their own. Remember, if California was a country it'd have like the 4th largest GDP in the world, and we ripped that poo poo right out of Mexico's hands while we had our boot on their face. I really need to track down some economists and historians at the local Uni and ask them what they think the most profitable war in history was. Because despite how many times jrod asserts otherwise, war can be hella profitable. Caros posted:I especially love how he pretends that your typical DRO is going to largely consist of bureaucrats. I'm sure they will probably outnumber the armed soldiers in the DRO's employ... but lets not forget that the DRO has a large number of soldiers in its employ. In Valhalla DRO, the bureaucrats are also the soldiers, and all paperwork is signed in the enemy's blood, in triplicate! 
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Nov 4, 2014 07:00
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OH NO MY DICK posted:Why the hell do you think anyone's going to be persuaded by mises.org links? Especially leftist-rear end D&D? Even if I thought libertarianism was correct and the best thing for humanity I'd still not even touch mises.org as a debate tool. I'm not asking this sarcastically or rhetorically. I'm genuinely interested in the thought process behind you posting mises.org links. It betrays a lack of self-awareness that, while not surprising at all, is still shocking. If I was seeking to cite some statistic or fact to back up a point I was making I could link to some non-political independent resource for such facts. However, when I am quoting a libertarian author on a specific point, then of course I would link to a libertarian website. The sheer amount of material available at the Mises Institute website is staggering. It is like a compilation of every major libertarian author and economist's published works in one place. Would you really be more persuaded if I linked to another libertarian website? What if I linked to the Future of Freedom Foundation? Or LewRockwell.com? In the above post I was linking to the written work of Stephan Kinsella who has done more work on the subject of IP than any other libertarian author. And, luckily, almost his entire published work is available for free on Mises.org.
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Nov 4, 2014 07:10
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Oh my god I think he's just a mises shill paid to get mass clickthroughs. It all makes sense now.
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Nov 4, 2014 07:12
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jrodefeld posted:Would you really be more persuaded if I linked to another libertarian website? What if I linked to the Future of Freedom Foundation? Or LewRockwell.com? Nobody would. You're fully aware of how much hate Von Mises gets on this website, so it's really mind-boggling that you'd link to an editorial on a site named after him. At worst you're really, really bad at knowing how people think, and at best you're engaging in a masturbatory exercise. You'd probably do better like, drawing some poo poo in mspaint to literally illustrate your points. Imagine if you were in a debate with the guy who runs Maoist Rebel News and he posted a link to the North Korean government's website. Would you even touch that poo poo, even as an exercise in intellectual honesty?
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Nov 4, 2014 07:18
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The reason we don't want you linking to mises.org is 1) we don't accept their work as authoritative and 2) your argument will be stronger (if only in our minds) if you broaden your sources. Mises.org is fine for subjective stuff about what libertarian thinkers argue, but for cold hard facts you'll want to go to more neutral sources. Hell, if you can pick apart an authentic anti-libertarian argument, that would be a huge point in your favor! It would show that you understand the arguments well enough to poke holes in them effectively. Try finding some!
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Nov 4, 2014 07:21
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jrodefeld posted:Would you really be more persuaded if I linked to another libertarian website? What if I linked to the Future of Freedom Foundation? Or LewRockwell.com? Dude, they don't care about truth. They don't want to figure things out. They keep misrepresenting what you said, making claims they know are false, calling you names and annoying you. They're doing this because they get their psychopathic kicks from making you waste effort and time in trying to help them see how the world actually works. You want to help them, and they just want to abuse you. Look at everything they've said to you, and you'll see it matches what I'm suggesting here. They're inhuman scum, but they're not that dumb. Caros sometimes does a fairly good job of pretending he wants to figure things out through a civilized discussion, but he's just trolling at a higher level. He says he's a former AnCap, but you know once you see reality, you can't un-see it, and you can't just stop being a rational person (barring brain damage). Either he's deluded, or he's a troll. What would the company he keeps suggest? The "people" on SA are like firehoses of sophistry. They keep spewing bullshit and watching you try and refute it. Stop jumping through their hoops. They don't care about what's true and rational and objective. Stop wasting your time on these piece of poo poo psychopaths. The only winning move is not to play. The best way for you to help mankind is talking to ordinary people. You can show them the nature of governments Larken Rose style, and they don't start filibustering the conversation with "externalities" or "efficiency" or "rational actors" or "pareto optimality" or any other academic nonsense like that. They'll either get it, or they'll stop talking to you, but they won't keep endlessly wasting your time. Now please just do yourself a favour and stop posting here altogether. Concentrate on ordinary people and you'll actually achieve something.
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Nov 4, 2014 08:21
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Pththya-lyi posted:The reason we don't want you linking to mises.org is 1) we don't accept their work as authoritative and 2) your argument will be stronger (if only in our minds) if you broaden your sources. Mises.org is fine for subjective stuff about what libertarian thinkers argue, but for cold hard facts you'll want to go to more neutral sources. Hell, if you can pick apart an authentic anti-libertarian argument, that would be a huge point in your favor! It would show that you understand the arguments well enough to poke holes in them effectively. Try finding some! So... you're telling him to go find actual emipircal evidence, instead of simply throwing out obtuse pseudo-philosophy? He's a Praxeologist, he doesn't have to sully his hands with that kind of filth! fakeedit: Ohboy, Know-Nothing-Guy is back.
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Nov 4, 2014 08:24
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shiranaihito posted:Dude, they don't care about truth. They don't want to figure things out. They keep misrepresenting what you said, making claims they know are false, calling you names and annoying you. They're doing this because they get their psychopathic kicks from making you waste effort and time in trying to help them see how the world actually works. You want to help them, and they just want to abuse you. Look at everything they've said to you, and you'll see it matches what I'm suggesting here. They're inhuman scum, but they're not that dumb. Hey man, you know what you said here makes you come off as totally unhinged, right? Like, just because goons think jrodefeld is mad retarded doesn't make them inhuman scum. That's a weird fuckin thing to say.
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Nov 4, 2014 08:33
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Shiranaihito gets me. I just can't help but feed from the pig trough of statist ideology.
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Nov 4, 2014 08:49
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VitalSigns posted:TLDR: That would never happen because the DRO system would be so Wait, what was the Hudson Bay Company then? East India Company? VOC and GWIC?
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Nov 4, 2014 09:00
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shiranaihito posted:Dude, they don't care about truth. They don't want to figure things out. They keep misrepresenting what you said, making claims they know are false, calling you names and annoying you. They're doing this because they get their psychopathic kicks from making you waste effort and time in trying to help them see how the world actually works. You want to help them, and they just want to abuse you. Look at everything they've said to you, and you'll see it matches what I'm suggesting here. They're inhuman scum, but they're not that dumb. Either I have been reverse-meta-trolled or you have become unhinged. I am strangely aroused.
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Nov 4, 2014 09:05
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So here's a question for Jrodefeld and/or KnowNothingDude: How do you reconcile the inevitable conflict of your professed beliefs vis-a-vis the fact that, as inhabitants of a state, you are currently profiting from the very "theft", "coercion" and "aggression/violation of the NAP" you keep harping on? Presumably you all live in places where there are public roads, no? Public water, sewage, garbage collection, etc. etc. These are basic, fundamental services of a modern society, funded mostly through taxation, and you are benefiting from them, to say nothing of the fire-department or police ( though the last one is debatable ). If this taxation is objectively, morally wrong now and forever, then isn't profiting from the expenditure of taxes ( proceeds of out-and-out theft, according to you ), just as illicit? Yes, I know what the answer is most likely to be, but I'm interested to see how they'll contort themselves in the process
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Nov 4, 2014 09:07
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shiranaihito posted:Dude, they don't care about truth. They don't want to figure things out. They keep misrepresenting what you said, making claims they know are false, calling you names and annoying you. They're doing this because they get their psychopathic kicks from making you waste effort and time in trying to help them see how the world actually works. You want to help them, and they just want to abuse you. Look at everything they've said to you, and you'll see it matches what I'm suggesting here. They're inhuman scum, but they're not that dumb. The Prophecy was true! He has returned! I am ashamed I ever doubted. Now maybe address all those polite and well-thought-out posts Caros made at you. Edit: Wow... uh. Honestly I only just now fully read that post. Goddamn, that's one hell of a crazy pile of words. Rhjamiz fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Nov 4, 2014 |
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Nov 4, 2014 09:13
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jrode, why do you get to ignore empirical evidence in every circumstance except the ones where you think it will help you? Let me provide an example:jrodefeld posted:Frankly, I think that the subject of epistemology and the validity of praxeology and the limits of empiricism is far to complex a subject to fully hash out in the limited format of an internet message board. Sometime later... jrodefeld posted:It is a myth that democracy leads to a more efficient State that more effectively solves social problems. In fact, as Hoppe has argued, I would wager that a benevolent monarch would do far less harm and probably more good for a society than a democratically elected Congress. "Frankly, I think that the subject of democracy and the validity of statism is far to complex a subject to fully hash out in the limited format of an internet message board, so we should all just accept that it just works exactly as intended." Do you understand now why so many people find praxeology to be insufferably stupid? You're not actually here to debate or discuss, you're here to proselytize. By stating that your conclusions are deduced from a priori axioms that are infallible, you're effectively just loudly proclaiming that your opinion is correct and no amount of evidence can disprove it. That isn't logical or scientific, it's just cultish. How about instead of that you try to give our viewpoints a once-over instead of immediately declaring that they're wrong without even thinking?
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Nov 4, 2014 09:19
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Muscle Tracer posted:Have we ever gotten an answer from Jrod on why the DRO with the thickest jackboots and heaviest truncheons won't just start up Mongol Horde 2.0? Or are we pretending that, faced with being either a) raped and pillaged or b) pressed into military service and/or indenture, rational actors are going to pick the former because Non Aggression? I believe it started off as "war would violate the non-aggression principle therefore it wouldn't ever happen", which became "wars are never profitable therefore no one can go to war without fiat currency and/or taxes", which became "the peaceful people would all pick up arms and crush whatever DRO decided to become warmongering, because there are countless examples of continents of people doing this successfully (like when the native americans took all of their land back and expelled the white man from the Americas)" archangelwar posted:OK, so let's assume the libertarian revolution occurs and is a resounding success. The first generation of liberteers are able to establish a functional society and a handfull of DROs established to cater to their needs. However, as has been mentioned, DRO membership, while voluntary, is required to meaningfully survive within this new society. Hmm, I choose to exit South in search of Goblins
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Nov 4, 2014 09:33
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shiranaihito posted:Dude, they don't care about truth. They don't want to figure things out. They keep misrepresenting what you said, making claims they know are false, calling you names and annoying you. They're doing this because they get their psychopathic kicks from making you waste effort and time in trying to help them see how the world actually works. You want to help them, and they just want to abuse you. Look at everything they've said to you, and you'll see it matches what I'm suggesting here. They're inhuman scum, but they're not that dumb. Oh God he's right, I just never realized it until I clicked one of those mises.org links. Praise the all-father I am cured of my horrible statist ways, now I'm off to join Valhalla DRO and begin a new life in libertopia QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 11:01 on Nov 4, 2014 |
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Nov 4, 2014 09:36
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Rhjamiz posted:Wow... uh. Honestly I only just now fully read that post. Goddamn, that's one hell of a crazy pile of words. No, see, it's the rational man who considers people who disagree with him on an internet forum as evil subhuman monsters that he fantasizes about exterminating.
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Nov 4, 2014 09:44
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QuarkJets posted:Oh God he's right, I just never realized it until I clicked one of those mises.org links. Praise the all-father I am cured of my horrible statist ways, now I'm off to join Valhalla DRO and begin a new life in libertopia Nah, it's probably just a libertarian lurker who knows he doesn't have the rhetorical skill to bullshit like jrod does. It's not like jrod is the only follower of the cult of Mises in SA.
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Nov 4, 2014 09:48
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jrodefeld posted:It has in fact never been proven that IP increases overall wealth in society, and nearly all conclusive studies have found that IP costs more than it is worth. So even from a utilitarian perspective you would have to concede that IP is a negative drain on the innovation and technological progress of society. Except that there were sources linked in this very thread that showed, yes, IP has been of economic benefit. And by "all conclusive studies" you of course mean "that were performed by libertarians."
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Nov 4, 2014 10:03
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Waaaah the Christians are out to get me
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jrodefeld posted:It has in fact never been proven that IP increases overall wealth in society, and nearly all conclusive studies have found that IP costs more than it is worth. So even from a utilitarian perspective you would have to concede that IP is a negative drain on the innovation and technological progress of society. Please list all of these studies, and please state what you would regard as proof. I genuinely don't know, praxeology is so anti-empirical that it's difficult to imagine what could constitute a proof against your favored position.
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Nov 4, 2014 10:20
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Political Whores posted:Nah, it's probably just a libertarian lurker who knows he doesn't have the rhetorical skill to bullshit like jrod does. It's not like jrod is the only follower of the cult of Mises in SA. Wasn't he the guy who someone bought an account for who stayed around for like five minutes? I gotta give JRod credit for at least trying to engage other perspectives. Or for being some sort of intellectual masochist I guess, but hey, as long as it's all consensual. E: I don't really mind if mises.org is his source, since it's ultimately just an aggregator of libertarian arguments, but you really need to be able to summarize positions in your own words. I'm not really interested in reading someone else's opinions if the person citing them doesn't even understand them. That a libertarian argued a thing once isn't all that intetesting. Timecube guy has argued that Nature's Glorious Time Cube disproves academic physics! But his argument isn't very good and I don't really understand it because I am not schizophrenic. Just linking his website isn't going to convince anyone of his position. If I could reframe the Time Cube in a compelling and insightful manner, that might get someone's attention. Probably a psychiatrist in this case though. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Nov 4, 2014 |
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Nov 4, 2014 10:21
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Yeah, he's the angry Finnish(?) libertarian who started out with insisting that we should think for ourselves and was furious that people didn't respond with fellating him and instead returned ad-hominem fire.
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Nov 4, 2014 10:30
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jrodefeld posted:Yes intellectual property should be eliminated. See Stephen Kinsella on this subject. Intellectual "Property" is not really property, it is more correctly described as monopoly privilege. If I voluntarily share an idea with the world, you all can use that idea without taking that idea away from me. If you duplicate a movie and give it out, you don't remove MY copy of the movie. If you want your ideas protected, don't share them with others. If you DO share your ideas, then you cannot use force to keep them from using those ideas in practice.
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Nov 4, 2014 12:07
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shiranaihito posted:The best way for you to help mankind is talking to ordinary people. You can show them the nature of governments Larken Rose style, and they don't start filibustering the conversation with "externalities" or "efficiency" or "rational actors" or "pareto optimality" or any other academic nonsense like that. They'll either get it, or they'll stop talking to you, but they won't keep endlessly wasting your time. I agree. And you know what, you're not going far enough. The best way to really help mankind? Start purposefully targeting the vulnerable, distraught and easily influenced. Those guys are really easy to make see the shining light of self evident rationality. You definitely don't want to be troubled with people who will question your
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Nov 4, 2014 12:22
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shiranaihito posted:Dude, they don't care about truth. They don't want to figure things out. shiranaihito posted:I have no idea where you're getting that from, I doubt it's true (without state involvement), and I don't want to bother investigating.
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Nov 4, 2014 14:01
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shiranaihito posted:They don't want to figure things out.They keep [...]calling you names quote:They're doing this because they get their psychopathic kicks quote:They're inhuman scum quote:Either he's deluded, or he's a troll. quote:The"people" on SA are like firehoses of sophistry quote:Stop wasting your time on these piece of poo poo psychopaths. I absolutely love that you have no clue how much of a massive hypocrite you are. That and that it's clear you've been lurking this thread the whole time, probably imagining burning us with sick one liners. You are just too adorable, I love it. 
Who What Now fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Nov 4, 2014 |
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Nov 4, 2014 14:05
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They saw the truth and then rejected it! Apostates! Subhumans! Purge them! Boy it's a good thing ancaps are generally obese and ineffectual or I would be a little concerned.
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Nov 4, 2014 14:43
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Even if they weren't there's only like three dozen of them. Pretty sure we can scrounge together a bigger gang than they can.
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Nov 4, 2014 15:07
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Who What Now posted:Even if they weren't there's only like three dozen of them. Pretty sure we can scrounge together a bigger gang than they can. Alright now I want a political ideology version of The Warriors.
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Nov 4, 2014 15:10
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I Am The Scum posted:Alright now I want a political ideology version of The Warriors. *clinks whiskey bottles together* ♫"Dem-o-craaaaaats, come out to vooo~oooote!"♫
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Nov 4, 2014 15:25
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shiranaihito posted:... they don't start filibustering the conversation with ... "rational actors" or ... any other academic nonsense like that. They'll either get it, or they'll stop talking to you, but they won't keep endlessly wasting your time. I agree, rational actors do only exist in academia, in the real world people are irrational as gently caress. Excellent posting sir  .
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Nov 4, 2014 15:29
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shiranaihito posted:Dude, they don't care about truth. They don't want to figure things out. They keep misrepresenting what you said, making claims they know are false, calling you names and annoying you. They're doing this because they get their psychopathic kicks from making you waste effort and time in trying to help them see how the world actually works. You want to help them, and they just want to abuse you. Look at everything they've said to you, and you'll see it matches what I'm suggesting here. They're inhuman scum, but they're not that dumb. Awww, I got a call out by the troll. I think I feel a tear in my eye. This whole post is amusing, but I especially like the part at the end. The best way to help humanity (HA!) is talking to ordinary people. You can just convince them because they aren't necessarily sophisticated enough to understand or refute your arguments. If you talk to people like us then you get caught up in endless discussions about things like "Evidence" and "Facts". This is straight up cultist recruiting 101. Aim for vulnerable people and go scattershot to hit as many as you can in an attempt to get converts. As for my conversion, I don't like to bring this up because it isn't necessarily anyone's business, and most people in the thread have heard the story, but the reason I am not a libertarian is very simple. Several years back I was as hardcore an An-Cap as anyone who has ever posted here, I was into the craziest of the crazy, I was a Molyneux fan, I thought Mises.org was the tits and so forth. Then longtime friend of mine was diagnosed with cancer. Her prognosis was excellent, especially since it had been diagnosed early, I believe it was something like 95% 5 year survival rate with treatment. The issue was that unlike me, she lived in the US. The cost for her treatment was bankrupt, and not just for herself. Since she was young like me and it cost so much to have in the first place, her medical insurance was almost nothing. They eventually told her to gently caress off, but not until nearly six months after her diagnoses, and even early rounds of treatment were looking at six figures in cost. She made a decision not to pursue treatment, because the only way she would have been able to afford treatment would have been to use up every dollar of her parent's retirement and take a second mortgage on their home. At one point we were seriously discussing having her come to Canada to engage in a sham wedding with me so that she could access Canadian medical care, but by the time we were having that discussion she wasn't really able to go anywhere, and she didn't want me risk me having problems with the government over fraud (or with my girlfriend for that matter). Suffice to say, my very good friend died. She became one of the 64,000 people who die annually in the USA not because of the inability of doctors to treat her, but because of her inability to pay without financially destroying everyone around her. A five year survival rate ended up at a little less than a year and a half of watching one of my best friends waste away from something we knew how to fix. If she'd been in canada with that diagnosis she'd have been in treatment in under a week. Let me tell you, something like that wakes you up from the cultlike environment you live in really loving quick. When you realize that you aren't special, you aren't gonna be John Galt it really puts into perspective the fact that your ideology is based entirely on disgusting greed and a selfish refusal to engage with society because you totally are unique and more important than anyone else. Shiranaihito I hope the day comes where you finally realize that you are acting like a petulant child who doesn't want to share because you think you should be able to keep everything for yourself. When that day comes I really do hope you come back here and tell us that you made it, because I really feel sorry for you. Its why I engage with you even when you're being such a condescending prick... because I'm hopeful that you aren't mean spirited, you're just delusional. Until then, do us all a favor and  . You don't understand the culture here, and you aren't interested in either debate or discussion. You've said it yourself, you aren't going to win any converts here.
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Nov 4, 2014 16:05
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