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I don't usually use charging builds, but when I do, I use them on other dumb things. If I'm doing something utterly stupid, I can just slap the build on and still be effective.
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Nov 6, 2014 03:13
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Doesn't charging every round mean you spread your damage out a lot, which isn't really desirable? I'm assuming you charge a dude, shift away, charge another dude 'cause the first dude is too close, then shift away etc...
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Nov 6, 2014 19:36
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Gort posted:Doesn't charging every round mean you spread your damage out a lot, which isn't really desirable? You eat OAs to just charge a different guy, have things to mitigate OAs, and/or have controlling PCs move you and your targets around.
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Nov 6, 2014 19:42
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Gort posted:Doesn't charging every round mean you spread your damage out a lot, which isn't really desirable? Boots of Adept Charging let you shift 1 after a charge, so you can wail on the same guy.
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Nov 6, 2014 19:44
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Gort posted:Doesn't charging every round mean you spread your damage out a lot, which isn't really desirable? At early levels you use boots of the adept charge to shift away so you can charge the same target. At higher levels you can use Boots of the Mighty Charge to use an encounter power on a charge, with all the charge bonuses. Generally meaning you can nova the enemy dead in one turn/action. Hurricane of Blades on a Charge with all the charge bonuses is horrifying.
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Nov 6, 2014 20:04
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homullus posted:You eat OAs to just charge a different guy, have things to mitigate OAs, and/or have controlling PCs move you and your targets around. You do not eat OAs after level 1 unless your build involves eating OAs on purpose to do retributive damage.
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Nov 6, 2014 20:10
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There are a LOT of ways to get enough mobility to charge the same dude every round without provoking.
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Nov 6, 2014 23:58
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What levels do the different Inherent Bonuses kick in? And can someone jog my memory as to the differences between the DMG2/Dark Sun/CB rules for them?
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Nov 10, 2014 09:39
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+1 every five levels, starting at level 2 for attacks and level 4 for defenses. I think the only difference between DMG2 and Dark Sun is that Dark Sun added +1d6 damage per plus of the attack bonus on a crit (unless your weapon/implement says differently).
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Nov 10, 2014 10:19
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The rules compendium says that dominate does not change a creature's enemies & allies. Does this mean it's no good against creatures/players whose at-wills target 'one enemy' or 'enemies in blast'? (well except for robbing them of their turn and movement and all that)
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Nov 11, 2014 20:27
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That's about the gist of it, yes.
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Nov 11, 2014 20:40
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My Lovely Horse posted:That's about the gist of it, yes. Thanks!
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Nov 11, 2014 20:51
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My Lovely Horse posted:That's about the gist of it, yes. Unless you just make them run around like headless chickens provoking OAs from all the enemies. Which works both ways, though.
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Nov 12, 2014 21:23
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Last time I played DnD was back in the old 2e days (prior to 2.5e even), so looks like I need to do a little bit of reading of this thread to get some idea of what the hell I'm doing in Doomykins' 4e thread. Also, any help/advice/etc (either via PMs or in the Recruit/OOC thread for Doomy's game) would be appreciated since I know I'm going to gently caress things up in the first few combat posts at the very least... 
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Nov 13, 2014 07:23
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So is the templar theme bugged inside the character builder? I can't pick templar powers when it says I should be able to. Which powers I can't pick differs every time I load up a different character.
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Nov 13, 2014 07:50
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Link to his character for people who weren't watching the recruit thread. Idk how much charop matters to doomykins so the advice here might not matter much in the long run, but anyway. You want an Expertise feat at some point (the 3 bonus feats exist usually to let people take the "math fix" feats of Expertise and Improved Defenses, and Melee Training for classes with a lovely MBA) to raise your accuracy. I'd look at Executioner over Assassin for your hybrid if you're absolutely married to that pairing, otherwise I'd probably ditch Hybrid and pick one or the other. You have proficiency in shuriken but no ki focus (they let you apply their enhancement bonus to any weapon, nice for multi-weapon builds) or magic shuriken (thrown magic items come back to you, always). Basically your sheet looks like you want to use a bunch of different weapon types but don't actually have much ability to use them effectively, which will be a problem. Even now your attacks with shuriken and garotte are gonna be a couple points lower than your other weapons, that difference will only grow larger as you level and monster defenses assume a certain to-hit. Really what I'd recommend is moving away from Hybrid and going straight Executioner since they're explicitly set up to do the multi-weapon thing that you seem to be going for, at the moment I don't see Bard doing much for you aside from skill bonuses, which in a party as large as that there should be a wide enough spread that a generalist skill monkey won't be needed. If that's not an option or you want the Bard stuff real bad then adjust your items to get a magic Ki Focus.
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Nov 13, 2014 07:52
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Generic Octopus posted:Link to his character for people who weren't watching the recruit thread. Thanks for the input. Yeah I'd rather hold onto the Bard stuff simply because to the concept I've got in mind as the character grows and levels up (should the game last that long :crossed fingers: ). I'll have to look into your suggestions a little more (and perhaps discuss with Doomy about potential changes).
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Nov 13, 2014 08:00
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No offense intended by this post: For some reason new players are attracted to playing hybrid and they above all others should not play hybrid. There are only a sliver of hybrid builds that are even functional, and very few of those are as good or interesting as a pure class character. For example, the feats on this sheet are a mess, and you should be sticking to normal classes because you don't yet understand what's going on with character building. You can do a lot of things with one class--ignoring hybrids doesn't really limit you, and in fact a better idea is to take a multiclass feat if you want some versatility in the choices you make later. Like the charop thread says (that we should probably close so we can move all 4E discussion to one thread, there isn't that much to go around), pay your taxes. Feats suck for a lot of reasons, but one of them is that 90% of your feats are going to be mandatory or near-mandatory picks that do nothing but make sure you can fulfill your role in the party. You've been given three free feats--those are for taking the absolutely essential feats that everyone should take (taxes): -Some form of Expertise. You need an Expertise feat to be at baseline playability. -Improved Defenses OR two of the three following: Superior Will/Superior Reflexes/Superior Fortitude (absolutely everyone should take Superior Will) -Melee Training is important situationally for some characters and in some parties and deals with one of the clunkier aspects of 4E D&D, basic attacks. If you have an at-will power that can be used as a basic attack OR are never going to be in melee AND are not a defender that uses something besides Strength as its primary ability AND finally don't have anyone in the party granting you free basic attacks, you don't care about this at all. Otherwise you should generally pick it up.
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Nov 13, 2014 08:18
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No offence taken. Building a character in 4e does seem to me to be far more complicated than it was in the other tabletop RPGs I've played, hence the obvious mistakes I've made (even using the off-line charbuilder) Probably should have read this, and the other 4e threads, first... live and learn.  Again appreciate the suggestions (and the candour ). Definately more food for thought (and things to research) for me going forward.
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Nov 13, 2014 08:26
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OzCavalier posted:No offence taken. 4e is far easier than say, 3.5. However, there are some "required" things you have to take with every class. Also, new players are drawn to hybrids like moths to a bug zapper. I had one player try and be a Vampire|Druid, and that took a lot of arguing to get him just to be a Druid. Make good use of the handbooks on the 4e charop site, some are outdated, but they do a good job of winnowing away the chaff when you are building a character.
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Nov 13, 2014 14:36
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Is the "Boss is invincible during the fight until X happens" a dumb idea? I'm thinking of the players going up against a warmachine with impenetrable armor and they have to run around the dungeon from it until they get to a Terminator 2 style scene where they have to trick it into a vat of molten metal before they can even hurt the drat thing.
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Nov 13, 2014 15:24
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If they have other things to do while they're fighting it, sure. It that sense it's basically just an environmental hazard before a boss fight.
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Nov 13, 2014 15:28
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AXE COP posted:If they have other things to do while they're fighting it, sure. It that sense it's basically just an environmental hazard before a boss fight. That's what I was thinking, yeah.
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Nov 13, 2014 15:39
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Nth-ing the "don't play a hybrid" advice. If your hybrid isn't built specifically to take advantage of class synergies, you're basically playing half a character. It doesn't work at all like 2e multiclassing because leveling doesn't work the same way. With 2e MCs, you level slower, but because of the geometric xp tables you'll only be a few levels behind. With 4e hybrids you'll always be the same level as the rest of the party, but you're two halves that don't really compliment each other. Building a character in 4e is generally about on par with building a spellcaster in 2e (for non-hybrids). If you put your high stats where your class recommends and pick a few powers that sound neat (and depending on your class, double check that they use your chosen main stat to hit), you'll generally be able to do your job. The main complicating factor is feats, but there's no escaping that. Just pay your taxes and after that you can generally pick whatever looks cool. And yeah, there's definitely a range of optimization. But that baseline competency is actually still pretty effective and fun.
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Nov 13, 2014 15:51
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Just started a little campaign with three absolute newcomers to roleplaying games, so I decided to have them go up against an evil alleged vampire threatening a Transylvania-style village. They had absolutely no idea what any class did, so I just suggested some based on what they wanted to do most of the time. One was especially undecisive, so I gave him something the party didn't have at all, a Leader. So we had a little gang of Barbarian, Sorcerer and Warlord... And drat, it's great seeing how nicely these classes work out! (In the low levels, at least, which is all I've seen so far.) The Barbarian and the Sorcerer are insanely beefy, especially with Dragon Magic on the sorcerer, so they basically run around, cleaving everyone and slam-dunking acid orbs into everybody's faces. It's like ranged attacks are only something you do when you don't have move actions anymore, it's great (Sorcerer is also a Goliath, go figure). Together, they're an incredibly  combo. And the best thing is, it works perfectly with the Warlord, who spents most fights pretty much healing everybody back from faceplanting into enemies and giving them even more attacks/temp hp. It's magical to see an entirely unexperienced warlord player's face slowly, but surely change into the epitome of  .Got a couple questions, too: what are some sensible feats to suggest? I don't want to overwhelm my players with insane minmax, but they definitely should have something servicable (besides the TAXES). For instance, the Warlord is a big fan of yelling at allies / using diplomacy in the middle of battle, and he's set his eyes on a long reach weapon. And of course, the Sorcerer is determined to be pretty much a magic melee mountain of beef. Also, I heard axes suck, but the Barbarian wants one. Any suggestions (for me to suggest)?
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Nov 13, 2014 15:58
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Torquemadras posted:Got a couple questions, too: what are some sensible feats to suggest? I don't want to overwhelm my players with insane minmax, but they definitely should have something servicable (besides the TAXES). For instance, the Warlord is a big fan of yelling at allies / using diplomacy in the middle of battle, and he's set his eyes on a long reach weapon. And of course, the Sorcerer is determined to be pretty much a magic melee mountain of beef. Also, I heard axes suck, but the Barbarian wants one. Any suggestions (for me to suggest)? Axes are fine. They're just not high-op. Give him an executioner axe and let him go to town. Or if you wanted slightly higher op, go gouge, tell him it's a giant axe with a spear on the tip and point him towards stuff like Surprising Charge. Spearlord is a pretty common build, but you might need to tweak his stats for it to work. You need a decent WIS score to fully utilize it, 15 IIRC. And I think great spears are pretty common for the build. In any case, check the warlord handbook. It should outline how to make the build work. I've not looked at sorcerers much, so hopefully someone else can help you there.
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Nov 13, 2014 16:13
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If the barbarian wants an Axe, generally you go for the Gouge. 2d6 brutal 1. For an easy boost to damage, make it a frost weapon and have him take Lasting Frost and Cunning Stalker. Easy CA and vulnerability. If your using cold weapons he can also retrain Weapon Focus into Icy Heart for additional damage. The charge package is even easier, and very potent but you end up using very few powers so it is kind of boring. The sorcerer can do the same thing with a frost weapon and Lasting Frost and Icy Heart (albeit there are much better options, but this is easy) and just make sure that the Sorcerer has taken Flame Spiral at level 3. As long as you have Flame Spiral, and some way to abuse vulnerability your golden. Also if your Sorcerer is a Dragonborn, you can have them take a look at rebreathing, but I would not reccommend it. Madmarker fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Nov 13, 2014 |
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Nov 13, 2014 16:13
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crime fighting hog posted:Is the "Boss is invincible during the fight until X happens" a dumb idea? I'm thinking of the players going up against a warmachine with impenetrable armor and they have to run around the dungeon from it until they get to a Terminator 2 style scene where they have to trick it into a vat of molten metal before they can even hurt the drat thing. I did this before in a game. Had a giant invincible Shield Guardian stomping after the party in a big sprawling city. I basically turned it into a Trap/Environmental/Skill Challenge encounter designed to span a good chunk of the adventure. They eventually had to figure out how to disable a beacon that was powering the thing, and once they did that THEN they could hurt it. But it was great because the machine was always on their heels, destroying stuff in its wake to get at them and it felt pretty cinematic. Also, noting on hybrids. There are only a handful of functional hybrid combinations, and some hybrid class "halves" just don't work with anything at all and you're better off multiclassing for those (Fighter is one of them. Never hybrid a Fighter). However, there ARE some hybrid combinations that are ridiculously cool and work just as good, if not better than some classes. Barbarian/Sorcerer (Probably just specifically Dragon Sorc) is one of them because Sorcs get a lot of "I hurt you for being adjacent to me" powers which, for most Sorcs are used to keep enemies AWAY, and their damage bonus isn't tied directly to their Sorc powers like virtually every other hybrid class ability. Pair those with Barbarian who always wants to be in your enemies' faces and you have this awesome character who runs up, beats down enemies, then hurts everyone surrounding them with big bursty effects. Edit: Also, what was the deal with Cold damage getting all these nice bells and whistles, anyway? No other elemental damage got any treatment even remotely close to Cold, and I'd think Fire or Radiant would have been bigger and more supported than Cold of all things. Agent Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Nov 13, 2014 |
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Nov 13, 2014 16:31
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ImpactVector posted:Building a character in 4e is generally about on par with building a spellcaster in 2e (for non-hybrids). If you put your high stats where your class recommends and pick a few powers that sound neat (and depending on your class, double check that they use your chosen main stat to hit), you'll generally be able to do your job. Actually with a few classes you also need to check for melee weapon/ranged weapon/implement keywords and make sure you pick the appropriate ones there. That comes up more often than the "main stat to hit" thing, I think. Also, specialize. Not necessarily in one particular aspect like charging or one damage type, although that can be effective, but more like, if you're a melee fighter, don't pick a ranged weapon power "just in case" and lug a bow around. Someone else in the party is going to cover that.
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Nov 13, 2014 16:53
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My Lovely Horse posted:Actually with a few classes you also need to check for melee weapon/ranged weapon/implement keywords and make sure you pick the appropriate ones there. That comes up more often than the "main stat to hit" thing, I think. Bard is the worst about that, with multiple powers at each level being either Ranged, Melee or Implement.
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Nov 13, 2014 16:59
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If you play a class that can use certain weapons as implements (sorcerer) or have a weapon that can be thrown as well as wielded in melee (dagger; good for rogues) you can of course spread it out a little bit.
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Nov 13, 2014 17:09
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Agent Boogeyman posted:Edit: Also, what was the deal with Cold damage getting all these nice bells and whistles, anyway? No other elemental damage got any treatment even remotely close to Cold, and I'd think Fire or Radiant would have been bigger and more supported than Cold of all things. To be fair, all three DO have support, cold is just the easiest (if not the best). Radiant is usually better in parties with a Morninglord, and fire is probably best of the three if you can use a heavy blade and can easily get +fire to your attacks (like a Genasi). Lightning is also super good if you're a half-elf in Eberron which is a bit specific but I'm something of a stickler for Dragonmarks. Thunder is ok-ish for AoE pros. This isn't true for all classes forever, mind you, but more generalizations. Acid and Force have next to nothing going for or against them, psychic exists pretty much exclusively for Psychic Lock (and is thus far more a controller thing), necrotic is resisted by like everything, and poison has tons of immunities (but you can make sort of a niche thing as a drow executioner, be it pure, hybrid, or multi). Last I checked the big "metagame" for elemental damage boiled down to exploiting - and creating - vulnerabilities. Use a warlock elemental pact, your ice feat, that one fey theme, Morninglord, whatever, to create the vulnerability, then smash it as many times as you can. It's sort of the opposite of 3e; better to have a lot of small hits then one big hit, since you can add tons of damage to the small hits. The big draws for the sorta important ones: Ice: Tons of support! Give vulnerability or remove resistance, gain CA (though that's really easy these days), etc. Lightning: Mark of Storm means you slide with every hit. Very exploitable. Fire: Firewind Blade does extra damage every time you hit with a fire attack. That adds up big time! Radiant: Only really applicable at mid-paragon to epic, but radiant weapons add the item damage bonus (so you get your arms back) and morninglord gives a huge vulnerability if you have one. It's also typically pretty drat easy to add radiant damage. This is actually probably one of 4e's bigger math flaws; it really is far too easy to stack stupid numbers of modifiers, especially when elemental damage is called into play. Madmarker posted:Bard is the worst about that, with multiple powers at each level being either Ranged, Melee or Implement. AIP or swordmage multiclass (I mean you're a bard, you aren't limited in multiclassing) and a dagger covers all three.
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Nov 13, 2014 17:16
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Agent Boogeyman posted:Also, noting on hybrids. There are only a handful of functional hybrid combinations, and some hybrid class "halves" just don't work with anything at all and you're better off multiclassing for those (Fighter is one of them. Never hybrid a Fighter). Actually you should always hybrid fighters with wizards because then you can use Beast Switch as a melee basic attack. Nothing quite like someone trying to run away from you getting turned into a frog for their troubles.
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Nov 13, 2014 17:16
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Hybrids are super loving finnicky, and while I totally get why you'd want to be one (What's better then one class? TWO CLASSES!), it's way too easy to screw up. Some hybrids are amazing and can even create pretty unique playstyles all on their own. Most are just mishmashy and don't work, sadly.
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Nov 13, 2014 17:19
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Agent Boogeyman posted:(Fighter is one of them. Never hybrid a Fighter). You can do some neat stuff with Fighter hybrids (Fighter|Rogue riposte defender, Fighter|Ranger MC Pally PP Champion of Order with HBO for a mean mark punishment).
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Nov 13, 2014 17:23
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I once made a hybrid Warlock|Paladin for a PbP game that didn't get very far; theres actually a couple feats from a Dragon article to support that build. Stuff like "When an enemy is both Marked and Cursed..." etc.
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Nov 13, 2014 17:25
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Generic Octopus posted:You can do some neat stuff with Fighter hybrids (Fighter|Rogue riposte defender, Fighter|Ranger MC Pally PP Champion of Order with HBO for a mean mark punishment). Theres also the Stand and Bang Barbarian builds which are often Barbarian|Fighter, grabbing Rain of Blows. Fighter doesn't need to be hybridized, it is a powerful class in its own right, possibly the strongest, but hybriding it can be great. Heck Hybrid Sorc|Fighters with Ghost of the Past Theme can do some pretty fun things with Flame Spiral AP Come and Get It, every encounter. edit-Ghost of the Past is such a busted Theme, and is easily more powerful than entire paragon paths on the strength of its starting feature and U10 alone.
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Nov 13, 2014 17:30
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Super Waffle posted:I once made a hybrid Warlock|Paladin for a PbP game that didn't get very far; theres actually a couple feats from a Dragon article to support that build. Stuff like "When an enemy is both Marked and Cursed..." etc.
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Nov 13, 2014 17:33
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"Never hybrid a ______" honestly doesn't hold up that often. Hybrids are too finicky for that. The only time you sincerely want to go with "NEVER hybrid _____!" is with classes that either a) don't get the abilities they need (avenger), b) can't actually use all their powers that well (druid), or c) are just garbage classes you don't want to play at all anyways (assassin). The only broad rule of thumb is "striker|striker doesn't work out most of the time." It IS true that some classes hybrid way better then others, like executioner, warlord, artificer, or warlock, to name a few.
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Nov 13, 2014 17:40
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I totally just ripped off one of the vaults from Fallout for this dungeon (it fits because it's an ancient, advanced civilization they are plundering) so they're fighting old automated AIs and running through a now labyrinthine tunnel system where most turns are collapsed. Ugh I hope I can make this as cool as it is in my head.
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Nov 13, 2014 18:04
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