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Patton gave a rousing speech to see the Black Panthers off before writing in his diary that he still thought colored people were too slow and stupid to operate tanks effectively. It's not that hard to make a connection in your head when Tomino has explictly mentioned distrust of the government and the lies of politicians as one of the driving forces in his creation of the show, and those two characters are already shady as hell, maybe they aren't all that trustworthy or pure in their intentions.
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Nov 8, 2014 07:14
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Caros posted:Those are the two highest ranking soldiers we've seen in the Capital Army. They came out solely to see Mask (totally not Luin) off before his sortie in the new top of the line mobile suit. To me that doesn't exactly scream "We're sending you off as a Guinea Pig. Especially after they'd first sent out an experienced soldier on the same task. Did you miss the fact that they treat everyone like that, even the people they're specifically trying to undermine? I mean you can see it a bit more blatantly with Bellri's mom.
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Nov 8, 2014 07:14
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The closest analogue to the Kuntala is obviously the Burakumin, but if you can't see the also present analogues between the mask team and historical segregated units I don't know what to tell you.
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Nov 8, 2014 07:15
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Sharkopath posted:The closest analogue to the Kuntala is obviously the Burakumin, but if you can't see the also present analogues between the mask team and historical segregated units I don't know what to tell you. Yeah, when I saw the Kuntala unit the first two things that came to mind were Robert Gould Shaw's all African American unit from the Civil War, and the 442nd Infantry Regiment from WW2.
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Nov 8, 2014 07:22
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TARDISman posted:Yeah, when I saw the Kuntala unit the first two things that came to mind were Robert Gould Shaw's all African American unit from the Civil War, and the 442nd Infantry Regiment from WW2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar cowrote a really really good and cool book about the 761st tank battallion, and if you have any interest in minority perspectives of that time period or the operations of armor in general its a nice read, although very depressing because of the inherent subject matter. Turns out being a tanker loving sucks and the ways you die in them are horrible beyond belief, which is only made worse by the rampant mistreatment you'll receive from the very people you are pledging to defend. It's called called Brothers In Arms if you'd like to check it out.
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Nov 8, 2014 07:26
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Sharkopath posted:Kareem Abdul Jabbar cowrote a really really good and cool book about the 761st tank battallion, and if you have any interest in minority perspectives of that time period or the operations of armor in general its a nice read, although very depressing because of the inherent subject matter. I am pretty interested in history, especially since my grandfather was lieutenant in a tank battalion in WW2. Thanks!
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Nov 8, 2014 07:30
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ImpAtom posted:Did you miss the fact that they treat everyone like that, even the people they're specifically trying to undermine? I mean you can see it a bit more blatantly with Bellri's mom. quote:Patton gave a rousing speech to see the Black Panthers off before writing in his diary that he still thought colored people were too slow and stupid to operate tanks effectively. And? The argument being made was that the Mask team was somehow being used as expendable troops. If you are arguing that the capital army brass treats everyone as expendable troops then yeah, I agree. If you're arguing that they are specifically singling out Kuntala by putting them in one unit to be killed off, then explain why the started by sending non-Kuntala out to begin with, then sending that same unit out again after the Kuntala's first failure. Even if the brass are being careless with the lives of their troops, which I agree with, there is nothing suggesting that the Kuntala are being put at any more risk than the Dellensen team. The fact that the team is composed entirely of Kuntala seems at this point to be nothing other than an oddity. quote:The closest analogue to the Kuntala is obviously the Burakumin, but if you can't see the also present analogues between the mask team and historical segregated units I don't know what to tell you. Historically segregated units were required to have their papers stamped as 'colored' and needed to be escorted on base by white service members. They were trained in segregated bases for non-combat roles by white drill instructors. When they eventually were allowed into combat they were largely held back from the front lines in defensive posts to the point that it was considered a desperate move when Eisenhower actually allowed African American troops to take up arms and actually fight during the battle of the bulge. By contrast Luin was trained alongside other Non-Kuntala troops. The only reference we get of his heritage is what amounts to a shifty-jew joke when one of his fellow students calls him out for being a suck up and implying it was due to his heritage. He attends the send off of Dellensen's unit alongside dozens of other (assumedly) non-Kuntala cadets. Once he graduates he is recruited as a pilot of the top of the line new mass produced mobile suit, given a high profile mission and sent off with the public good graces of top brass. Despite failing in that mission (though getting nebulous 'data') he is given command of a unit composed of those fancy new mass produced suits and told to try again. So yeah. No. Apart from having a segregated unit, which could be a coincidence, a choice based to improve morale or any number of other things... we haven't seen the sort of problems you are suggesting are there. Again, I'm not saying that the problems aren't there, I'm saying that jumping from an all Kuntala unit to "They are being sent out to die" is silly. Caros fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Nov 8, 2014 |
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Nov 8, 2014 07:32
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It is very coincidental that the unit we are sending against the amerian decoy target while we have intel about a threat from space is also entirely staffed and crewed by an ostracized minority. I really don't have anything to say, but that's alright I guess.
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Nov 8, 2014 07:38
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Sharkopath posted:It is very coincidental that the unit we are sending against the amerian decoy target while we have intel about a threat from space is also entirely staffed and crewed by an ostracized minority. It is very coincidental that the first unit we sent against the amerian decoy target while we have intel about a threat from space is also entirely staffed and crewed by a variety of different people with no social connections besides working for the military. They've had four sorties with the megafauna. Two of them were Dellensen's team. But no, by all means pretend those don't exist so that it fits your argument. Edit: And again, I'm not even arguing that the unit isn't segregated intentionally. We don't have proof that it is, but I'll agree it is likely. My point is that they aren't some mistreated unit being sent off to die in a suicide mission. I also think calling them an ostracized minority is hilariously overplaying things seeing as we haven't seen anything more hurtful than a few bad words and one rear end in a top hat kicking a cheerleader. Being a Kuntala certainly doesn't keep you from being granted your own officer's commission. Nor does it keep you off the cheerleading squad! Caros fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Nov 8, 2014 |
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Nov 8, 2014 07:40
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I never said it was a suicide mission, just that they are being used and any of their losses will only be a benefit to the Capital Army, who want to lionize the populace into supporting the strengthening of their powerbase. Being called racial slurs and literally kicked is pretty messed up man!! Just because people aren't calling me a friend of the family all the the time doesn't mean there isn't some racism I deal with in my day to day life.
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Nov 8, 2014 07:47
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Sharkopath posted:I never said it was a suicide mission, just that they are being used and any of their losses will only be a benefit to the Capital Army, who want to lionize the populace into supporting the strengthening of their powerbase. What does them being a segregated unit have to do with this then? If they aren't being treated any better or worse than other Capital Army units then the fact that they are an all Kuntala unit is an interesting factoid and nothing more. Plenty of people were making that accusation quote:Being called racial slurs and literally kicked is pretty messed up man!! Just because people aren't calling me a friend of the family all the the time doesn't mean there isn't some racism I deal with in my day to day life. Well I still attribute the kick less to racism than that guy being an rear end in a top hat to begin with, but neither here nor there. My point was that while we've seen individual offensive remarks, there is nothing to suggest that there is any form of institutionalized issue. We haven't seen any lunch counters or separate fountains, or anything to suggest that there is some large social hatred against these people. Klim didn't seem to care that Noredo was a Kuntala when he got threatened with a slingshot, Noredo joined a cheerleading squad without problem, Luin joined the military with a bunch of others and got his own unit etc etc. The simple point is that we've yet to see anyone in a position of authority make any sort of a big deal about someone's heritage. While it might end up being a plot point later on, thus far all we have is a handful of cases involving people actually being at all even rude to Kuntala. I can think of two. The first episode kick and the rude joke from Luin's friend. If the racism is supposed to be an important plot point they have done a lovely job of show don't tell. Caros fucked around with this message at 08:00 on Nov 8, 2014 |
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Nov 8, 2014 07:56
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The Mask Unit is fighting because they want to better their lot in life and the lot of the Kuntala in general. That's a motivation that you don't get if there isn't much wrong with how you are treated to begin with.
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Nov 8, 2014 08:00
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It's weird that I have to defend the statement that the segregated unit of a racial minority that is fighting to improve the fortunes of said racial minority is in fact a mistreated racial minority.
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Nov 8, 2014 08:03
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Sharkopath posted:The Mask Unit is fighting because they want to better their lot in life and the lot of the Kuntala in general. That's a motivation that you don't get if there isn't much wrong with how you are treated to begin with. Or unless you want to try and remove the historical stigma based around the fact that your ancestors were literally eaten by other people. Caros fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Nov 8, 2014 |
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Nov 8, 2014 08:03
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Caros posted:Or unless you want to try and remove the historical stigma based around the fact that your ancestors were literally eaten by other people. The line is that their position in society will improve, and one day they could even be in control of the capital. Dude...
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Nov 8, 2014 08:04
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Sharkopath posted:The line is that their position in society will improve, and one day they could even be in control of the capital. And? That doesn't imply they are mistreated, it implies that if they do well then the general opinion of Kuntala will improve which might lead to them (somehow) being in control of the capital one day. I suppose taxation without representation might be considered mistreated. Sharkopath posted:It's weird that I have to defend the statement that the segregated unit of a racial minority that is fighting to improve the fortunes of said racial minority is in fact a mistreated racial minority. Well they aren't a racial minority since being eaten by humans is not a racial trait (not that race is really a thing either but whatever). You also have no proof that they are segregated, and it is in fact highly unlikely considering that we have examples of Kuntala being trained alongside non-kuntala. So no, I don't think it is weird that you have to defend speculation being stated as fact. Caros fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Nov 8, 2014 |
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Nov 8, 2014 08:08
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There are differing levels of ostracism and racism in the world, it doesn't have to be maximum blunt level literal jim crow era style stuff for the implication to be there. Because it is there. Like really obviously. Jesus.
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Nov 8, 2014 08:09
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caros you are amazing
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Nov 8, 2014 08:12
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No wait I want to hear about the race isnt real part now, please elaborate.
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Nov 8, 2014 08:14
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Sharkopath posted:There are differing levels of ostracism and racism in the world, it doesn't have to be maximum blunt level literal jim crow era style stuff for the implication to be there. Okay, so you agree with my points! Hooray! I'm not arguing that Kuntala aren't subject to some bias, which they clearly are. I'm arguing that posts like this: quote:I'd say the segregated kuntala-only unit the Capital is essentially throwing to the wolves is pretty evident of the discrimination the kuntala face. Have no basis in what is shown. By your own admission we haven't seen any evidence of systemic discrimination, and frankly we've seen very little in the way of even individual level discrimination (like... two cases in seven episodes). To me the whole discussion about Kuntala feels very much like the discussion about equality in the Legend of Korra thread. People see a theme that they are interested in and get really invested in it despite the theme being very low key to the show. I might be wrong and it might be important, but I honestly doubt the Kuntala thing will amount to much in the end. quote:No wait I want to hear about the race isn't real part now, please elaborate. I didn't say it wasn't real, I said it wasn't a thing. Which admittedly is hilariously indistinct, but I'm tired so whatever. To be specific, race is a social construct of humans, and like all social constructs such as currency or property it pretty much only exists because we decide that it does. While there are certainly traits that get associated with one group or another, there is no universally observable "Black" race any more than there is an observable "White" race. While members of certain 'races' share biological traits, there is no genetic marker for being black anymore than there is a genetic marker for being white. So no, I don't believe that race is really a 'thing' as I said, its merely a method that people use to group others so that our monkey brains can more easily comprehend them. Caros fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Nov 8, 2014 |
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Nov 8, 2014 08:45
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There's also the fact that there are no visible physical differences between kuntala and anyone else. People have been trying to specify what they thought were the physical traits of kuntala on /m/ for a while now actually, whether it was a dot on the head or anime hair colors, but both of those are traits shared by non-kuntala as far as we were aware all along. The fact that Luin had to look in to the background of his crew to know they were kuntala and that the people within it weren't aware of it themselves confirms that it isn't a racial issue though. Not that the fact that Willmit had to ask about Noredo after she was introduced shouldn't have confirmed this all along I guess, but yea, there's no physical markers for being a kuntala according to the show. It is an issue of some kind obviously, just ethnically based, not racially. Edit: Also, the fact that Luin had to look in to the backgrounds of his unit to learn what ethnicity they were would suggest that they were all trained within the regular army rather than segregated in to specific kuntala training units prior to that point. Which means that Mask's unit is probably an exception rather than the rule. tsob fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Nov 8, 2014 |
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Nov 8, 2014 09:01
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Considering Mask is the squad leader, I just assumed he put the team together himself  .
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Nov 8, 2014 09:08
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Considering Mask is the squad leader, I just assumed he put the team together himself The implication in the line is that they were all chosen prior by some separate actor and it is only later that this mysterious mask character learned they were all of them Kuntala.
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Nov 8, 2014 09:11
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There's obviously some sort of discrimination going on, and it's enough to motivate the squad by promising that things can get better if they do well. That said I don't see how sending out a team fully kitted out in the best mobile suits the Capital Army has available (at least, that we know of) is 'being thrown to the wolves.' Especially when there have been previous sorties already (which would give them battle data that would read as 'Only the Montero and the G-Self present anything remotely resembling a threat to an Elf-Bullock.')
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Nov 8, 2014 09:12
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Considering Mask is the squad leader, I just assumed he put the team together himself I'd considered this as well, though the phrasing makes it unlikely since he says "I've learned that all of you who were chosen are Kuntala as well", which suggests he isn't the one doing the choosing. It could be read as "I learned that you were Kuntala and that is why I chose you" but the phrasing is odd. Then again it is Japanese to english so who knows.
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Nov 8, 2014 09:12
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I can tell you as someone who speaks Japanese that it's the first one.
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Nov 8, 2014 09:17
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John Carstairs posted:I can tell you as someone who speaks Japanese that it's the first one. That is what I figured. Thank you however. 
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Nov 8, 2014 09:21
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tsob posted:There's also the fact that there are no visible physical differences between kuntala and anyone else. People have been trying to specify what they thought were the physical traits of kuntala on /m/ for a while now actually, whether it was a dot on the head or anime hair colors, but both of those are traits shared by non-kuntala as far as we were aware all along. The fact that Luin had to look in to the background of his crew to know they were kuntala and that the people within it weren't aware of it themselves confirms that it isn't a racial issue though. Not that the fact that Willmit had to ask about Noredo after she was introduced shouldn't have confirmed this all along I guess, but yea, there's no physical markers for being a kuntala according to the show. They're much more like Burakumin than an actual ethnic minority, which makes sense given it's a Japanese show for a Japanese audience. We haven't seen how the Amerians or the Godwanans treat them, either, so it might be leading up to some greater point about the capital being conservative compared to the other two superpowers. If they even are superpowers, and it isn't just the case that by the end of the UC things got so bad that all that's left is two large countries and a non-governmental power distribution organisation-cum-religion.
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Nov 8, 2014 11:44
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Red Bones posted:They're much more like Burakumin than an actual ethnic minority, which makes sense given it's a Japanese show for a Japanese audience. We haven't seen how the Amerians or the Godwanans treat them, either, so it might be leading up to some greater point about the capital being conservative compared to the other two superpowers. If they even are superpowers, and it isn't just the case that by the end of the UC things got so bad that all that's left is two large countries and a non-governmental power distribution organisation-cum-religion. Well given the (already much discussed) rarity of female characters in positions of power/military in the Capital, especially compared to the Megafauna's crew, I think this is absolutely deliberate. Re: the Kuntala; isn't it possible they were more of a social class than an ethnicity? AKA "let's literally eat the poors." Mordja fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Nov 8, 2014 |
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Nov 8, 2014 13:17
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To add to the discussion, here's my own point of view about this. People are forcing their own interpretations, be it due to their life experiences or whatever, onto the show at hand. It's very clear, however, that some sort of discrimination happens to the kuntala. We've seen several people look down on them, even if they were people with no power whatsoever, so even if there's no actual consequences to being a kuntala, it's still seen as wrong by some sectors of the populace. What this means down the road is hard to say at this point, but as far as we can see kuntala are otherwise treated the same as any other Capital citizen, even being allowed into the army and given positions above soldier (as Mask has shown). Nonetheless, that kind of discrimination and name-calling still hurts, and might bring problems to them during their lives, so it can work as a good reason to fight. I don't agree with the "thrown to the wolves" interpretation of the Elf Bull squad, mostly because, as Caros pointed out, we have already been shown otherwise with Dellensen's team having the same mission with worse weaponry. That said, it's clear the kuntala squad was created for a reason. My own interpretation is that the higher-ups fully expected Mask to appeal to the kuntala's feelings, being one himself and a great speaker too, and that'd rouse them up to fight (morale is important in a war!). They say they'll take over Capital Tower, which might indicate that the higher-ups in this society are all non-kuntala, which might mean that every ruler is non-kuntala through discrimination, be it from society or from the law itself and they wish to change this to bring equality even in power (if equality is what they search, Mask's words make it look more like they want everything for themselves), not only in social status (which has been shown already to be equal). But then again, how the political power in Capital works is still not totally clear (we know there's a theocratic entity that leads over everyone, and then the military has a lot of power and Bell's mum is important but constantly losing her own power and might only be important in name only at this point, but that's very much not enough to know how the society works in its entirety). It also might not mean this at all, and I'm just being stupid. Hard to say! We'll definitely know more as the series goes on, but right now I'd say the situation is not clear enough.
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Nov 8, 2014 15:28
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Red Bones posted:They're much more like Burakumin than an actual ethnic minority, which makes sense given it's a Japanese show for a Japanese audience. We haven't seen how the Amerians or the Godwanans treat them, either, so it might be leading up to some greater point about the capital being conservative compared to the other two superpowers. If they even are superpowers, and it isn't just the case that by the end of the UC things got so bad that all that's left is two large countries and a non-governmental power distribution organisation-cum-religion. Klim Nick seemed to perpetuate it, but it was entirely in passing and that was his only real interaction with Noredo so far, so I wonder how he picked up she was at all. The rest of the Pirate Crew haven't though, and Klim is from an elite position so that might have had something to do with his worldview or upbringing instead.
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Nov 8, 2014 15:43
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Sharkopath posted:Klim Nick seemed to perpetuate it, but it was entirely in passing and that was his only real interaction with Noredo so far, so I wonder how he picked up she was at all. The rest of the Pirate Crew haven't though, and Klim is from an elite position so that might have had something to do with his worldview or upbringing instead. It's the smell. Kuntala smell delicious and the normals are jealous of that delightful musk and disgusted with themselves for even considering how tasty the Kuntala are as they pass by in the hall. Mask's unit is all Kuntala because the Capital Army leadership was tired of the other soldiers coming up to them and trying to smell their hair; now that they're on their own they have fewer distractions and can really excel.
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Nov 8, 2014 16:16
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Maybe "thrown to the wolves" is too strong of a way to put it, but it's pretty obvious they're being used as guinea pigs for all the cool new toys the Capital has access to now. Also, the two times Dellensen was sent to sortie, Mask's squad were either non-existent or couldn't sortie. The first time the Army sent out Dellensen it was because the production model of the Elf Bullock wasn't ready. As soon as it was ready to be tested, Dellensen was relegated to the sidelines, which he complained about. The second time he sorties is right after Mask blew his first mission, getting his unit heavily damaged and needing repairs. Also the Megafauna was heading to space, where following them from within the atmosphere was impossible, and presumably it's not very easy to transport over a dozen Elf Bullocks to one of the Nuts, but it IS easy to transport one elite pilot to one of the Nuts where his prototype Elf Bull is waiting. The Capital Army isn't stupid nor are they cartoon villain-levels of evil. They're practical. Assuming the kuntala-only unit was formed on the basis of segregation, that doesn't mean the Capital will send them out specifically to get them killed. Whether they live or die, the Capital benefits from their battle. If they manage to capture the G-Self, then that's great, have it sent over to the Research Division for further testing. If they all get eradicated, then oh well, at least they have the battle data and only a bunch of worthless kuntala got killed. Also it's pretty drat suspicious what they're doing with Mask's unit in the first place. Luin Lee was a Cadet in the Capital Guard until literally just a few days ago, when Dellensen recommended his transfer to the Army, yet as soon as he joins he's not only given a new prototype to test out, but his own unit and a spiffy new mask. Something definitely reeks here, and Mask probably thinks so too, given that he looked into the backgrounds of all his men and found that they were kuntala like him. And "ruling over the Capital" means either placing kuntala/kuntala sympathizers in high places or forcefully taking the government over, neither of which says kind things about the stuff that kuntala are subject to. But maybe I'm biased because I already know that the kuntala breach a subject that Tomino wants to preach about, which came up in a pre-show interview before it started airing. Yoshiyuki Tomino posted:-The [Kuntala] are the people who became food when mankind turned to cannibalism at the brink of extinction. They represent the problem of racism, the horrors of the collapse of society, and the depths of human sin.
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Nov 8, 2014 16:28
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Midjack posted:It's the smell. Kuntala smell delicious and the normals are jealous of that delightful musk and disgusted with themselves for even considering how tasty the Kuntala are as they pass by in the hall. Mask's unit is all Kuntala because the Capital Army leadership was tired of the other soldiers coming up to them and trying to smell their hair; now that they're on their own they have fewer distractions and can really excel. Kuntala have inherited the 'hair that always smells like fresh fruit' gene from their parent and that is their original sin.
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Nov 8, 2014 16:35
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Wanna sniff a Kuntala.
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Nov 8, 2014 16:50
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In "happier" news when Mask and his men shoot down Bellri's mom next episode, Bellri will finally have a reason to fight with the Pirates. This is a bit of speculation I really hope I'm wrong about. I spoiler'd it just in case. VVV Yeah, I rewatched Zeta recently so I'm in full tinfoil-hat mode. Insert joke about Turn-A being the "White Devil" while the G-Self has Devil Horns. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Nov 8, 2014 |
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Nov 8, 2014 18:02
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PoptartsNinja posted:In "happier" news when Mask and his men shoot down Bellri's mom next episode, Bellri will finally have a reason to fight with the Pirates. He caught her in the preview, she'll be fine for that episode at least, that and the chance to have Bell's mom and Aida's dad interacting together is too good an opportunity for tomino to pass up. Tragedy is always possible, but even with a few more deaths than I was expecting the show is still more lighthearted than most gundams are.
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Nov 8, 2014 18:04
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I hope they keep up the poop jokes throughout
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Nov 8, 2014 18:09
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i haven't been crazy about g-reco but then we got robot high-fives. 10/10, show of the year Also airbags in the cockpit.
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Nov 8, 2014 18:14
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Midjack posted:It's the smell. Kuntala smell delicious and the normals are jealous of that delightful musk and disgusted with themselves for even considering how tasty the Kuntala are as they pass by in the hall. Mask's unit is all Kuntala because the Capital Army leadership was tired of the other soldiers coming up to them and trying to smell their hair; now that they're on their own they have fewer distractions and can really excel. Sharkopath posted:Kuntala have inherited the 'hair that always smells like fresh fruit' gene from their parent and that is their original sin. Sakurazuka posted:Wanna sniff a Kuntala. Kunkun is the onomatopoeia for sniffing, so yes, they must smell delicious.
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Nov 8, 2014 18:24
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