|
QuarkJets posted:Why did he marry an anti-vaxxer? I guess she was not like this when they got married. He's concerned she has some issues but she will not see a doctor because she's worried they'll put her on medications  torpedan posted:Basically this. If she has bought into woo full hard core, convincing her otherwise is most likely going to be a very length process. She is in a spot not very different from any other conspiracy theorist and even when presented with facts will most likely move goal posts and blatantly ignore scientific consensus. If you force the issue too hard people will basically shut down or go full defensive and you will get no where. Essentially what I advised. Her position is based on fear, paranoia, and anxiety, which means presenting her with evidence won't help. I sent him a bunch of stuff about vaccine preventable diseases in the hopes that he can make her more afraid of what might happen if they caught something. But he's going to have to get the abx for them himself and deal with the fallout then.
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2014 19:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 05:45 |
|
|
In case this wasn't clear, "doesn't vaccinate their child" is stupid and harmful, but "refuses to treat child with antibiotics" is approaching criminally negligent. The former you can roll your eyes at, the latter you have a moral obligation to act on immediately.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2014 20:37
|
|
|
disheveled posted:In case this wasn't clear, "doesn't vaccinate their child" is stupid and harmful, but "refuses to treat child with antibiotics" is approaching criminally negligent. The former you can roll your eyes at, the latter you have a moral obligation to act on immediately. To clarify, the child was brought to the pediatrician who said he had something that would just run its course. He gave them an antibiotic rx and said "if he doesn't get better, you can get this filled". The kid is still coughing after a couple weeks and she won't go get it filled. So it's a little less "your kid is sick go get this filled immediately". Edit: I don't want anyone to think I'm advocating for the kid not to get meds, I am just saying it's not as simple as calling CPS and telling them the kid's mother is a stupid naturopath who is disobeying doctor's orders.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2014 20:46
|
|
|
copper rose petal posted:To clarify, the child was brought to the pediatrician who said he had something that would just run its course. He gave them an antibiotic rx and said "if he doesn't get better, you can get this filled". The kid is still coughing after a couple weeks and she won't go get it filled. So it's a little less "your kid is sick go get this filled immediately". Go open a thread about this in Goon Doctors, they should have the best advice for you in this situation. I don't think calling CPS should be the first step, tearing up a family just to get a kid to take some "maybe" necessary antibiotics is not in the best interest of both of the kids and may only further drive the mother away from evidence based medicine. If I understand correctly, the kid has a regular paediatrician who, after examination, prescribed antibiotics to take in case the cough does not get better in two weeks. Two weeks later, the kid has not substantially improved. The mother is afraid of antibiotics and has not given them yet. The correct course of action IMO for the dad is to discuss with the mother that they are both anxious about how to treat the kid and that a follow-up visit may be warranted. At my local paediatric department it is relatively easy to get a telephonic consult. They should discuss their fears, including the mothers viewpoint on AB, with the primary care taker ( the paediatrician ) so he/she can decide whether or not the AB should be started or if a new visit is needed. The secondary issue are the vaccinations. Usually, with some time investment of a GP or paediatrician it is possible to sooth these fears and get the kids on track for there vaccinations based on a individualised vaccination schedule. Most paediatrician deal regularly with these types of parents, some refuse further treatment for these patients but most become quite adept in dealing with them. Often the combination of an adapted vaccination schedule, sometimes leaving out some of the more "quack offending" vaccinations, and discussion of the concerns of the parents/ naturopath is enough to get a compromise that is acceptable for both parties. To summarise, the paediatrician / GP are your friends friends. They are trained and paid to deal with these situations and often derive a vicarious pleasure from making sure quacks don't quack too much. If they can build up rapport with the mother and keep an eye on the naturopaths most harm will be avoided. As for possibility of a change of mind on the mothers part: this is entirely possible and happens quite often. In my own experience with "alternative" patients the sentiments are often derived partially from fear. If you have the time to discuss their concerns patients will frequently meet you halfway evidenced based medicine.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2014 21:43
|
|
|
IAMNOTADOCTOR posted:Go open a thread about this in Goon Doctors, they should have the best advice for you in this situation. I don't think calling CPS should be the first step, tearing up a family just to get a kid to take some "maybe" necessary antibiotics is not in the best interest of both of the kids and may only further drive the mother away from evidence based medicine. This is an incredibly hosed up view to hold. If CPS comes and decides to, as you put it "tearing up a family", it's because the kids are in serious danger. If they are in serious danger, it doesn't matter than mommy doesn't like "unnatural things". Individual departments may have less than stellar records, but this idea that CPS goes around loving things up on a whim is incredibly uninformed and dangerous. The rest of the advice is fine, though I'm still concerned that there's a greater focus on Mom's dangerous beliefs rather than the health of the children. Dad has legal authority to authorize healthcare for his kids, so why isn't their health the primary concern?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2014 22:51
|
|
|
Solkanar512 posted:This is an incredibly hosed up view to hold. If CPS comes and decides to, as you put it "tearing up a family", it's because the kids are in serious danger. If they are in serious danger, it doesn't matter than mommy doesn't like "unnatural things". Individual departments may have less than stellar records, but this idea that CPS goes around loving things up on a whim is incredibly uninformed and dangerous. I do not expect the dad to be a rational actor in this situation. He is trying to 'win' and come out ahead on every front (I am going to take a guess and assume that a divorce would be pretty messy and drawn out). He may interpret calling CPS or taking non-mom consented action that would result in a large martial rift a no starter and ignore any useful advice after that point. If anything the kid needs a follow up doctors visit ASAP as it might give the pressure needed to get the kid medical treatment.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2014 23:10
|
|
|
torpedan posted:I do not expect the dad to be a rational actor in this situation. He is trying to 'win' and come out ahead on every front (I am going to take a guess and assume that a divorce would be pretty messy and drawn out). He may interpret calling CPS or taking non-mom consented action that would result in a large martial rift a no starter and ignore any useful advice after that point. If anything the kid needs a follow up doctors visit ASAP as it might give the pressure needed to get the kid medical treatment. I would expect that having a seriously sick (or worse) kid would do much worse things to the relationship than allowing proper medical treatment. You can always ask for forgiveness/counseling/etc after the fact, but the very idea of risking your own kid's health to walk on eggshells around these beliefs simply boggles my mind. Look, all the people telling me to have kids can't stop talking about "how much it changes their life" and "how they never understood what love was until their first held their own kid" etc so why is this even a question for Dad? I assume he feeds and clothes his children, and would continue to do so despite any misgivings from his wife, right? Why is basic medical care treated by the law or society in general differently than food, water, shelter, clothing or a safe and nurturing environment?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2014 23:21
|
|
|
Politicians (and lobbyists) who run this country believe that healthcare is an earned privilege. Simple as that. If they don't then they sure don't show it (with a few exceptions for some).
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2014 23:37
|
|
|
Solkanar512 posted:This is an incredibly hosed up view to hold. If CPS comes and decides to, as you put it "tearing up a family", it's because the kids are in serious danger. If they are in serious danger, it doesn't matter than mommy doesn't like "unnatural things". Individual departments may have less than stellar records, but this idea that CPS goes around loving things up on a whim is incredibly uninformed and dangerous. If that is what you read in my post then I did not phrase myself properly. What I meant to communicate is that every instance in which one parent or an agent perceived to act for a parent (in this case, the friend of the husband) contacts CPS to report the other parent is going to tear up (or divide) a family, regardless of how the CPS acts. Also, regardless of this case, don't underestimate the impact reporting to child protective services has on a family. For care providers reporting someone to the CPS is seen as very impact-full. Before reporting I'm required to 1 Document extensively all evidence of possible child abuse/neglect. 2 Receive anonymous telephonic counselling from the CPS AND an independent colleague 3 If in any way possible, discuss my concerns with the parents. 4 If in any way possible, discuss my concerns with other care providers. 5 Then I need to collect these opinions, document them and weigh the possibility of "realistic chance of damage" against "realistic chance of change in behaviour" 6 If I come to the conclusion that there is a realistic chance of damage or find out during follow-up monitoring that abuse has continued, then I report to the CPS and let the parents know that I reported them. I don't think were at step 6 yet with this.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2014 23:53
|
|
|
Solkanar512 posted:I would expect that having a seriously sick (or worse) kid would do much worse things to the relationship than allowing proper medical treatment. You can always ask for forgiveness/counseling/etc after the fact, but the very idea of risking your own kid's health to walk on eggshells around these beliefs simply boggles my mind. One of the big factors that makes it difficult is that both parties are doing what they believe is in the best interest of the child. Neither of them are likely in the state of mind that the child is in immediate danger and it does not sound like the kid is in a dire condition yet. I would hope that since they were open to an initial pediatrician visit that a follow up one could at least get the child the needed care.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2014 03:03
|
|
|
If only CPS tore apart families right away. It's like pulling teeth to get them to issue a pickup order.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2014 17:59
|
|
|
IAMNOTADOCTOR posted:I don't think were at step 6 yet with this. My post was eaten, but thanks for the clarification. I have to ask though, we have a sick kid and explicit instructions from the doctor to fill and administer a prescription. If this isn't #6, what does #6 look like? A kid in the hospital due to parental inaction?
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2014 18:07
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:If only CPS tore apart families right away. It's like pulling teeth to get them to issue a pickup order. CPS failing to act has killed more children.... 
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2014 18:09
|
|
|
Find a person old enough to remember the time before widespread vaccines, drag her to said person, and ask about Child Paralysis. Bonus points if familiy related and has either lost a child, or almost lost a child to a vaccine preventable ilness.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2014 18:53
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:If only CPS tore apart families right away. It's like pulling teeth to get them to issue a pickup order. This. My parents were openly beating my siblings and I bloody on a daily basis and the schools knew, cps knew and visited, and still it took until my dad was holding a gun to my moms head and talking about killing my brother and I when I was 17 before the COPS (not cps) did anything at all. CPS doesn't tear families apart and if anyone really believe that I really want some of what they are smoking. Thinking that CPS tears families apart is as unfounded as vaccines causing autism.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2014 19:59
|
|
Solkanar512 posted:My post was eaten, but thanks for the clarification. Actually the instructions were to fill it if the symptoms continue for too long or get worse and that the kid would probably get over it on their own. Now I'm not saying that we should pander to the irrational fears of people who read naturalnews and take it all as gospel but in this situation I think it would be best to take things slowly and see if it's possible to convince the mother before breaking up the family as long as it does not endanger the child(ren). Tigntink posted:This. My parents were openly beating my siblings and I bloody on a daily basis and the schools knew, cps knew and visited, and still it took until my dad was holding a gun to my moms head and talking about killing my brother and I when I was 17 before the COPS (not cps) did anything at all. CPS doesn't tear families apart and if anyone really believe that I really want some of what they are smoking. Thinking that CPS tears families apart is as unfounded as vaccines causing autism. That is going to vary a lot from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and agency to agency so you shouldn't take your experience as the only possible one. AVeryLargeRadish fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Nov 8, 2014 |
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2014 20:03
|
|
|
You could call the GP and see how important he/she thinks the antibiotics are, while expressing your concerns. They might also be able to help you with resources/know a social worker/someone who is a little more up to date on the legal options you have.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2014 20:07
|
|
|
I think people come to their senses after the first child or two die of preventable causes. Unfortunately it seems that there is nothing less that will really work on crazy. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2014 20:12
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:I think people come to their senses after the first child or two die of preventable causes. Unfortunately it seems that there is nothing less that will really work on crazy. Honestly, I don't even know if this is the case. It's possible they might even double down on their beliefs as a sort of defense mechanism (against having to acknowledge that the child's death is their fault).
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2014 20:56
|
|
|
AVeryLargeRadish posted:That is going to vary a lot from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and agency to agency so you shouldn't take your experience as the only possible one. If you know of a jurisdiction that is noticeably better at expediting investigations and removing children from abuse and neglect please let me know because I will do a loving outreach call to them when I get in to work on Tuesday. Tigntink's ordeal is the norm in my experience.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2014 21:01
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Honestly, I don't even know if this is the case. It's possible they might even double down on their beliefs as a sort of defense mechanism (against having to acknowledge that the child's death is their fault). People into woo dismiss reality so they will probably not be more accepting of a harsher reality.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2014 21:18
|
|
|
AVeryLargeRadish posted:
Even here in the glorious pacific northwest they let a man who was suspected of killing his wife have visitation with his children where he then locked the CPS agent out of the house, killed his kids with an axe and then he burned down his house. CPS worker scarred for life. Seriously, after my ordeal I actually wanted to help other kids in my situation but I couldn't find a single story where CPS workers in any county were allows to preemtively keep a child from harm. Harm has to happen to the child, then sometimes CPS will step in for a bit, parents get kids back, parents probably continue hurting children but are more careful about where the bruises are. Kids either make it to adult hood like me, extremely scarred, or they die. Parents then might get charged with a crime. maybe. silicone thrills fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Nov 8, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2014 22:30
|
|
|
It's tragic how toothless CPS can be in actually removing children from unsafe homes or situations. What's just as sad is that I don't see that ever changing. Many people wouldn't see it as giving CPS the ability to do their jobs better and protect children but rather as tyrannical government invasion of home and privacy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2014 23:16
|
|
|
Tigntink posted:Even here in the glorious pacific northwest they let a man who was suspected of killing his wife have visitation with his children where he then locked the CPS agent out of the house, killed his kids with an axe and then he burned down his house. CPS worker scarred for life. It's "funny" how it turns out we're both talking about WA CPS in the end.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2014 00:21
|
|
|
My childhood ordeal took place in Tennessee. But yeah, it's really no different anywhere.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2014 02:23
|
|
|
Just from googling chiropractic antibiotics:quote:Viruses cause colds, therefore, antibiotics have no effect and can actually weaken the immune system to prolong the illness. Viral infections may sometimes lead to bacterial infections. But using antibiotics to prevent bacterial infections does not work, and may lead to infection with resistant bacteria. hahaha well I bet you this will be nutty mom's compromise. Note that you need regular chiropractic adjustments in order to prevent the cause to come back. Right.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2014 03:42
|
|
|
Gimp Fack posted:Just from googling chiropractic antibiotics: Wait, wait, what the gently caress? I mean, the first two sentences are correct, no doubt about that. Upon closer reading, the second sentence is sort of technically correct, in that antibiotics shouldn't be taken to prevent infections, but rather are used as a cure instead of a preventative measure. It doesn't say anything that's technically wrong, but doesn't mention what happens when you take antibiotics as a curative measure instead of as a way to try to prevent illness (answer: it's a lot more effective than chiropractic check-ups).
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2014 04:12
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:It's tragic how toothless CPS can be in actually removing children from unsafe homes or situations. What's just as sad is that I don't see that ever changing. Many people wouldn't see it as giving CPS the ability to do their jobs better and protect children but rather as tyrannical government invasion of home and privacy. The problem is they need to be convinced it's bad enough at home that CPS is a step up. And at least around here, the kids in the CPS system are treated like human garbage as often as not.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2014 04:28
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:It's tragic how toothless CPS can be in actually removing children from unsafe homes or situations. What's just as sad is that I don't see that ever changing. Many people wouldn't see it as giving CPS the ability to do their jobs better and protect children but rather as tyrannical government invasion of home and privacy. Think of every representation of protective services you have ever seen in media. Excepting the ones in gritty cop dramas, how were they portrayed? I'm betting it was as a bunch of incompetent pencil pushing public servants with all that book-learning' but no real world experience, taking kids away for patently idiotic reasons. Remember that old episode of the Simpsons where the kids get taken away because Bart got fleas from a monkey and Lisa wore a sack to school for some reason and there were newspapers all over the floor from a school project? That's how a lot of people think it actually works.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2014 04:53
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:The problem is they need to be convinced it's bad enough at home that CPS is a step up. Let me tell you a story, oh wait I can't tell even one story due to confidentiality. Just imagine everything that is bad.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2014 04:59
|
|
|
Dirk the Average posted:Wait, wait, what the gently caress? I mean, the first two sentences are correct, no doubt about that. That's because if they say what happens when you take an antibiotic for an active bacterial infection then they have to admit that it works and chiropracy is woo 
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2014 05:13
|
|
|
Here's the actual link if you want to read the whole thing: http://www.drgregwerner.com/antibiotics/ I'm definitely no professional at all in this topic so perhaps my quick assumptions are incorrect. I just would not think a respected pediatrician would agree with this as the best solution.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2014 05:59
|
|
|
Gimp Fack posted:Here's the actual link if you want to read the whole thing: http://www.drgregwerner.com/antibiotics/ It's actually fairly sane up until he suggests that you cure Jimmy's cough by cracking his back. In a perfect world we would have cultures done before prescribing antibiotics, but it's not always easy to get a clean sample of the disease-causing agent, especially if it is actually viral, and they can take a very long time to grow into usable clusters. And even assuming that you actually got decent growth on your petri dish that isn't just random body bacteria (of which there is a LOT!), you could only positively confirm your suspicions. If you don't have anything, it could be a virus, or you could have just not gotten the swab right. It's impossible to tell unless you want to play "spot the virus" with an electron microscope. It's true that we have something of an antibiotic crisis, where more and more diseases are picking up antibiotic resistance and less antibiotics are being developed due to prohibitive costs. We really should use less antibiotics in medicine. But if you think you're going to convince a worried mother that you need a few days to double check before you give her kid medicine then you have a nasty surprise coming to you. Really, the article is an incredibly idealized and kinda ridiculous view of how medicine should work, which is not surprising considering who it's coming from.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2014 06:22
|
|
|
Gimp Fack posted:I'm definitely no professional at all in this topic so perhaps my quick assumptions are incorrect. I just would not think a respected pediatrician would agree with this as the best solution. Clinicians aren't trained as scientists, and don't have any special ability to evaluate information outside their training.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2014 06:30
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:Clinicians aren't trained as scientists, and don't have any special ability to evaluate information outside their training. So a paediatrician would not be able to judge whether or not skipping antibiotics and instead going for a back massage is detrimental?  You really cant complete your specialization in paediatrics without learning how to interpret trials. It is part of every curriculum. That doesn't mean that there aren't any woo pediatricians, probably just as much as there are cold fusion physicists.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2014 16:04
|
|
|
IAMNOTADOCTOR posted:So a paediatrician would not be able to judge whether or not skipping antibiotics and instead going for a back massage is detrimental? He's saying that there's a reason why they have to send samples off to separate labs to get the testing done. They can't do it themselves, they lack the training/equipment. VVVV In that case I'm with NOTADOCTOR, anyone with a basic understanding of biology recognizes this as woo. You can't only ask chiropractors if chiopracty is worthwhile. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Nov 9, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2014 17:08
|
|
|
DreamShipWrecked posted:He's saying that there's a reason why they have to send samples off to separate labs to get the testing done. They can't do it themselves, they lack the training/equipment. No, I actually am saying that clinicians aren't really trained to evaluate science outside their specialty.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2014 17:20
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:No, I actually am saying that clinicians aren't really trained to evaluate science outside their specialty. Yeah this is pretty much just factually wrong.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2014 17:37
|
|
|
I had a chronic sinus issues a few years back. Since I have an HMO plan, I went to my primary care physician, who, over the course of 3 months, recommended 3 different courses of antibiotics which were all ineffectual. At the end of the 3rd course of antibiotics, he actually suggested that I should buy cranberry syrup at my farmers market and mix it every morning with a bit of powdered Airborne as a solution to my problem. I had to insist vehemently on getting a referral to an ENT, where I eventually had to have surgery to remove a massive cyst from my sinus. Physicians are not immune to the call of pseudoscience, especially if it is also the option that requires the minimal effort on their part.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2014 17:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 05:45 |
|
|
joepinetree posted:I had a chronic sinus issues a few years back. Since I have an HMO plan, I went to my primary care physician, who, over the course of 3 months, recommended 3 different courses of antibiotics which were all ineffectual. At the end of the 3rd course of antibiotics, he actually suggested that I should buy cranberry syrup at my farmers market and mix it every morning with a bit of powdered Airborne as a solution to my problem. I had to insist vehemently on getting a referral to an ENT, where I eventually had to have surgery to remove a massive cyst from my sinus. Physicians are not immune to the call of pseudoscience, especially if it is also the option that requires the minimal effort on their part. IAMNOTADOCTOR posted:That doesn't mean that there aren't any woo pediatricians, probably just as much as there are cold fusion physicists. Your point doesn't really have anything to do with Discendo Vox erroneously claiming that somehow pediatricians don't have the same level of ability to interpret scientific papers as any undergraduate in a STEM field.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2014 17:52
|
|