Eastern Europe: Poland rip in pis

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Mc Do Well: Aug 2, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

New page edit:

Brown Moses posted:

Just published on Bellingcat Origin of the Separatists� Buk: A Bellingcat Investigation, also available as a PDF.

In the interest of editorial balance

youtube commenter posted:

Actually, there has never been any evidence that it was BUK which shot down the plane. And Strelkov mentioning having BUK in his possession does not mean that installation was even operational. You need more than just a a rocket carrier to effectively use that thing. You need a radar, and a skilled crew. I personally think Ukraine shot down that plane at the behest of Washington who needed to force EU into enacting sectoral sanctions against Russia.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 04:31

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 22:24

SMILLENNIALSMILLEN: Jun 26, 2009

You need more than just a a rocket carrier to effectively use that thing. You need a radar, and a skilled crew.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 04:53

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

katlington posted:

You need more than just a a rocket carrier to effectively use that thing. You need a radar, and a skilled crew.

And a tinfoil hat conspiracy theory to back it up!

# ? Nov 9, 2014 05:02

Prav: Oct 29, 2011

Man I bet they wish they had a skilled crew.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:36

Sandweed: Sep 7, 2006; All your friends are me.

The BUK have it's own radar system, the extra radar is optional.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 11:30

Somaen: Nov 19, 2007; by vyelkin

Conspiracy time!

Speaking of MH17, I'm curious to what the thread thinks of the Ukrainian version voiced by the secret service director Nalivaichenko that the rebels confused the Malaysian Boeing with a Russian airliner:

http://top.rbc.ru/politics/07/08/2014/941650.shtml

"On the 17th of July two airliners were flying over the territory of Ukraine, the Malaysian MAS17 and Aeroflot's АFL-2074. The planes were flying fairly close by and with similar characteristics, both around 10km up and at 700-900km/h.

The Russian mercenaries bad at Ukrainian geography confused two settlements named Pervomayskoe, mistakenly placing the Buk north-east of Donetsk instead of to the west. If the Buk were to be placed to the west of Donetsk, it would make it possible to shoot down the Russian civil airliner so that it would fall on Ukrainian controlled territory. The SBU believes that this would prompt Russia to move in its troops to occupy Ukraine."

This sounds monstrous, but considering that the bald beady-eyed dwarf is sponsoring Eastern Ukrainian armed thugs and sending his own troops to die and paying their families to keep shut, seems right up his alley... Also, the Moscow 1999 house explosions.

The Odessa massacre in May is also interesting considering the interview by Sikorski where he said that Putin was offering Poland to occupy Lviv and that the Russians calculated that the Ukrainian territories profitable for them to occupy would be Zaporozhye, Dnepropetrovsk and Odessa, as opposed to Donbass and Luhansk with its army of pensioners and subsidized coalmines. Was it ever clearly explained how the gently caress did the fire start from INSIDE the building at 2:00? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9AMjLBIliw

# ? Nov 9, 2014 11:47

AceRimmer: Mar 18, 2009

Somaen posted:

Conspiracy time!
"On the 17th of July two airliners were flying over the territory of Ukraine, the Malaysian MAS17 and Aeroflot's АFL-2074. The planes were flying fairly close by and with similar characteristics, both around 10km up and at 700-900km/h.

Two airliners were flying at typical airliner altitude and speed in a similar area? :monocle:

Also there's literally someone throwing a Molotov cocktail against the side of the building at like 2:08 in that video. :lol:

P.S.
The English translation you want to use are the "1999 Moscow apartment bombings".

Putin is a horrible enough dwarf creature without having to fabricate :tinfoil:

bullshit about him.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 12:16

Valiantman: Jun 25, 2011; Ways to circumvent the Compact #6: Find a dreaming god and affect his dreams so that they become reality. Hey, it's not like it's you who's affecting the world. Blame the other guy for irresponsibly falling asleep.

Somaen posted:

Conspiracy time!

I think that sounds really implausible. The rebels celebrated the downing of a Ukranian transport plane in social media and deleted the writings once they realized what actually had happened.

Valiantman fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Nov 9, 2014

# ? Nov 9, 2014 13:19

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

Brown Moses posted:

Just published on Bellingcat Origin of the Separatists� Buk: A Bellingcat Investigation, also available as a PDF.

Awesome, thank you!

How the Russians order Chinese food.

http://www.rg.ru/2014/11/09/putin-anons.html

quote:

Russian President Vladimir Putin has arrived in Beijing. Reported TASS

Leaders discussed economic cooperation between Russia and China with President Xi Jinping. The conversation will be held in a restricted format and then the leaders will join members of the delegations of the two countries. By Signing of bilateral documents.

Also, Putin will meet with Chilean President Michelle Bachelet, who arrived in China and attend the APEC summit. Russian leaders will be meeting with members of the Business Advisory Council members.

Tenth of November, Putin will also hold a series of separate bilateral meetings: his interlocutors become President of Indonesia Joko Widodo, Najib Razak Prime Minister of Malaysia, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, IMF Managing Director Christine Lagarde.

The next day, the head of Russia will take part in two working meetings of APEC and discussions at a working breakfast. It is also planned that in this day the Russian president will talk to the Prime Minister of Australia, Tony Abbott.

At the end of the week Putin expects another big summit - "Big Twenty", which will be held November 15-16 in Brisbane. In addition to the working sessions of the forum will have separate meetings with President of Russia Prime Minister David Cameron, and French President Francois Hollande.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 13:35

Somaen: Nov 19, 2007; by vyelkin

Valiantman posted:

I think that sounds really implausible. The rebels celebrated the downing of a Ukranian transport plane in social media and deleted the writings once they realized what actually had happened.

My bad, some googling and people have already mapped out the trajectory of the Aeroflot plane and it was deep in Ukrainian held territory.

quote:

Also there's literally someone throwing a Molotov cocktail against the side of the building at like 2:08 in that video.

I can't discern if the window to the right was open before or if it was broken by a molotov that flew in.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 14:27

Mightypeon: Oct 10, 2013; Putin apologist- assume all uncited claims are from Russia Today or directly from FSB.

key phrases: Poor plucky little Russia, Spheres of influence, The West is Worse, they was asking for it.

pigdog posted:

Actually, you seem to have the notion that "USA is bad and hypocritical, Putin stands up against the USA, therefore Putin is good". He's, like, more successful than Yeltsin and all that. I could sympathize.

Except good he so loving isn't. Literally nothing Putin has done has he done out of anything other than self-interest. His sovereignty and exposing NWO and all that poo poo is just a front, just as hypocritical as the "western" influence he positions himself against. He's a very run of the mill dictator doing a pretty good job at quietly suppressing opposition and thus far maintaining a relatively civilized exterior image, though which at this point is heavily crumbling.

Putin is a regional threat to sovereignity, human rights, freedom of press etc.
The USA is a global threat to sovereignity, human rights, freedom of press etc.
I do not live in the region threatened by Russia, therefor I prioritize the threat posed by the USA.
Any additional constraint on the hegemonic USA is good, as long as that constraint has a lower body count then the USA does.
When the cure becomes worse then the disease it changes, and Russia has to murder a lot more people for that.

And my point was that he was "good" as in "a hammer is good for punching in nails" when it came to preserving Russias status as a independent power. This is good for Russians, outside of dudes like Navalny and Chodrkovsky, noone wants to go back to Yeltsin.
Heck, the west even lost friggin Gorbatschov.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/michail-gorbatschow-will-bei-angela-merkel-fuer-wladimir-putin-werben-a-1001416.html#ref=plista

Wether it is good for Russias neighbours depends on other factors, largely which other independent powers are around to "influence" you. If the Russian neighbour can turn the influence tug of war over them into a bribing/concession contest, then Russia being a power is good for them (see, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Mongolia in particular would become a Chinese dependency if they couldnt balance Beijing with Moscow), if the polity so internally divided that both competing indepedent powers opt to compete over it with escalating coercion (Ukraine, arguably Georgia) then Russia being a power is bad for them.

Also, I have literally family that demonstrated against the GDR, where actualy dissidents (yeah, that caused some family problems with the more communist aligned family members), fought for a free GDR (distinct from getting annexed by the BRD, "Wir sind das Volk" was first, "Wir sind ein Volk" came considerably later) and are, concerning Ukraine, considerably more "pro Russian" then I am.

Did it occur to you that I point out the disastrous human rights record of the west, and the further detiorating direction of it, because I actually care about human rights, and because I believe that the blatant western hypocrisy concerning this important ideals does perhaps irreversible damage to them? Damage that a direct opponent would not be capable of dealing?

We already have on power where western double standarts and "human rights imports" successfull created a mental firewall between "democracy" and "that may be a good thing for us", that country is Russia and we are paying the price for that now.
And now the West is literally trying to do a more extreme version of the Russians 90s shock therapy, extralegal powertakeovers and "Anti terrorist operations" in Ukraine because that stuff worked really well in Russia?

In which parallel dimension is that possibly going to work?

# ? Nov 9, 2014 16:10

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

Thats cute, your even more retarded family members have even more retarded political views? Is this supposed to give you credibility?

At least it starts to explain where all the bullshit you post comes from.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 16:19

drilldo squirt: Aug 18, 2006; a beautiful, soft meat sack; Clapping Larry

Mightypeon posted:

Putin is a regional threat to sovereignity, human rights, freedom of press etc.
The USA is a global threat to sovereignity, human rights, freedom of press etc.
I do not live in the region threatened by Russia, therefor I prioritize the threat posed by the USA.
Any additional constraint on the hegemonic USA is good, as long as that constraint has a lower body count then the USA does.
When the cure becomes worse then the disease it changes, and Russia has to murder a lot more people for that.

And my point was that he was "good" as in "a hammer is good for punching in nails" when it came to preserving Russias status as a independent power. This is good for Russians, outside of dudes like Navalny and Chodrkovsky, noone wants to go back to Yeltsin.
Heck, the west even lost friggin Gorbatschov.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/michail-gorbatschow-will-bei-angela-merkel-fuer-wladimir-putin-werben-a-1001416.html#ref=plista

Wether it is good for Russias neighbours depends on other factors, largely which other independent powers are around to "influence" you. If the Russian neighbour can turn the influence tug of war over them into a bribing/concession contest, then Russia being a power is good for them (see, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Mongolia in particular would become a Chinese dependency if they couldnt balance Beijing with Moscow), if the polity so internally divided that both competing indepedent powers opt to compete over it with escalating coercion (Ukraine, arguably Georgia) then Russia being a power is bad for them.

Also, I have literally family that demonstrated against the GDR, where actualy dissidents (yeah, that caused some family problems with the more communist aligned family members), fought for a free GDR (distinct from getting annexed by the BRD, "Wir sind das Volk" was first, "Wir sind ein Volk" came considerably later) and are, concerning Ukraine, considerably more "pro Russian" then I am.

Did it occur to you that I point out the disastrous human rights record of the west, and the further detiorating direction of it, because I actually care about human rights, and because I believe that the blatant western hypocrisy concerning this important ideals does perhaps irreversible damage to them? Damage that a direct opponent would not be capable of dealing?

We already have on power where western double standarts and "human rights imports" successfull created a mental firewall between "democracy" and "that may be a good thing for us", that country is Russia and we are paying the price for that now.
And now the West is literally trying to do a more extreme version of the Russians 90s shock therapy, extralegal powertakeovers and "Anti terrorist operations" in Ukraine because that stuff worked really well in Russia?

In which parallel dimension is that possibly going to work?

It's because in your mind if the west did it that means it's ok for Putin to also.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 16:19

drilldo squirt: Aug 18, 2006; a beautiful, soft meat sack; Clapping Larry

It's something a idiot would think.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 16:20

Somaen: Nov 19, 2007; by vyelkin

http://news.liga.net/news/politics/3987281-telo_aktera_devotchenko_speshno_kremirovano_pravozashchitnitsa.htm

The body of the vocal opposition activist and actor was hastily cremated two days after he was found dead in a pool of blood. The humans rights activist talking about this case says that in her opinion it is evidence of involvement of special services - no body, no murder.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 16:20

Mightypeon: Oct 10, 2013; Putin apologist- assume all uncited claims are from Russia Today or directly from FSB.

key phrases: Poor plucky little Russia, Spheres of influence, The West is Worse, they was asking for it.

Jarmak posted:

Thats cute, your even more retarded family members have even more retarded political views? Is this supposed to give you credibility?

At least it starts to explain where all the bullshit you post comes from.

Did you just call people that fought for a democratic GDR against the Stasi retarded?

# ? Nov 9, 2014 16:21

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

drilldo squirt posted:

It's because in your mind if the west did it that means it's ok for Putin to also.

Its worse than that, he's basically arguing that the US has a gross total higher amount of bad acts, ignoring any sort of context of any of them, then also ignoring that the US has its fingers in way more pies, and coming to the conclusion that Russia must be strengthened in order to counterbalance the US.

Which ignores poo poo like, maybe we should extrapolate Putin's regional behavior to what he'd do if he had capabilities on par with the US.

Hey guys the police kill more people every year then serial killers, this means we'd be better off if we made serial killers the police.

edit:yes I did, I'm not sure if you're trying to pull some sacred cow bullshit with that line or trying to falsify the reason I was calling them retarded.

Jarmak fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Nov 9, 2014

# ? Nov 9, 2014 16:27

drilldo squirt: Aug 18, 2006; a beautiful, soft meat sack; Clapping Larry

Mightypeon posted:

Did you just call people that fought for a democratic GDR against the Stasi retarded?

He just called you retarded dude, I don't know where you got that linked in your head but it's kinda crazy.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 16:28

drilldo squirt: Aug 18, 2006; a beautiful, soft meat sack; Clapping Larry

Jarmak posted:

Hey guys the police kill more people every year then serial killers, this means we'd be better off if we made serial killers the police.

I thought we already had, haha.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 16:29

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

drilldo squirt posted:

He just called you retarded dude, I don't know where you got that linked in your head but it's kinda crazy.

No I called anti-reunification "even more pro putin then me" people retarded

# ? Nov 9, 2014 16:30

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Mightypeon posted:

Did it occur to you that I point out the disastrous human rights record of the west, and the further detiorating direction of it, because I actually care about human rights, and because I believe that the blatant western hypocrisy concerning this important ideals does perhaps irreversible damage to them? Damage that a direct opponent would not be capable of dealing?

So you'd rather Putin keep on sponsoring kidnapping, torture, and summary executions in Ukraine because it's good when direct opponents of human rights show that they are bad people and it gives more credibility and legitimacy to the concept of human rights. :v:

# ? Nov 9, 2014 17:12

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Somaen posted:

Conspiracy time!

Speaking of MH17, I'm curious to what the thread thinks of the Ukrainian version voiced by the secret service director Nalivaichenko that the rebels confused the Malaysian Boeing with a Russian airliner:

http://top.rbc.ru/politics/07/08/2014/941650.shtml

"On the 17th of July two airliners were flying over the territory of Ukraine, the Malaysian MAS17 and Aeroflot's АFL-2074. The planes were flying fairly close by and with similar characteristics, both around 10km up and at 700-900km/h.

The Russian mercenaries bad at Ukrainian geography confused two settlements named Pervomayskoe, mistakenly placing the Buk north-east of Donetsk instead of to the west. If the Buk were to be placed to the west of Donetsk, it would make it possible to shoot down the Russian civil airliner so that it would fall on Ukrainian controlled territory. The SBU believes that this would prompt Russia to move in its troops to occupy Ukraine."

This sounds monstrous, but considering that the bald beady-eyed dwarf is sponsoring Eastern Ukrainian armed thugs and sending his own troops to die and paying their families to keep shut, seems right up his alley... Also, the Moscow 1999 house explosions.

The Odessa massacre in May is also interesting considering the interview by Sikorski where he said that Putin was offering Poland to occupy Lviv and that the Russians calculated that the Ukrainian territories profitable for them to occupy would be Zaporozhye, Dnepropetrovsk and Odessa, as opposed to Donbass and Luhansk with its army of pensioners and subsidized coalmines. Was it ever clearly explained how the gently caress did the fire start from INSIDE the building at 2:00? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9AMjLBIliw

This is some of the most retarded poo poo I have ever read in this thread. I really hope that "secret service director" is not a position of power or authority in Ukraine.

Also, lol at people thinking that the US/NATO running around and ignoring international law williy-nilly is not relevant to the discussion. Following rules, if you are the only doing it, is almost always pretty stupid. The sad truth is that US/NATO behavior of the last two decades is partially responsible for the poo poo show in eastern Ukraine.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 17:16

Bates: Jun 15, 2006

Mightypeon posted:

Any additional constraint on the hegemonic USA is good, as long as that constraint has a lower body count then the USA does.

The hegemonic USA presiding over the most peaceful period in human history. Oh the hegemony! But sure let's hope for a multi-polar world where states can systematically dismantle smaller, weaker states at will - it's worked so well the last 10.000 years so why gently caress with it now.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 17:21

Domattee: Mar 5, 2012

Mightypeon posted:

Did it occur to you that I point out the disastrous human rights record of the west, and the further detiorating direction of it, because I actually care about human rights, and because I believe that the blatant western hypocrisy concerning this important ideals does perhaps irreversible damage to them? Damage that a direct opponent would not be capable of dealing?

Yeah, I agree, I mean just look at the state of human rights during the cold war! The USA and USSR kept each other in check so well! It worked wonders to keep things like economic or military proxy wars in check. And man, the USA really hosed up that whole Afghanistan thing uh? If only the Soviets had been there first they'd have had no trouble at all. Or this Syria business, imagine how much worse it would be if the Russians hadn't been supplying weapons (including chemical ones) to Assad!

Mightypeon posted:

(distinct from getting annexed by the BRD, "Wir sind das Volk" was first, "Wir sind ein Volk" came considerably later)

Und das ist krass-ahistorischer Schwachsinn.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 17:50

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Domattee posted:

Yeah, I agree, I mean just look at the state of human rights during the cold war! The USA and USSR kept each other in check so well! It worked wonders to keep things like economic or military proxy wars in check. And man, the USA really hosed up that whole Afghanistan thing uh? If only the Soviets had been there first they'd have had no trouble at all. Or this Syria business, imagine how much worse it would be if the Russians hadn't been supplying weapons (including chemical ones) to Assad!

Und das ist krass-ahistorischer Schwachsinn.

Imagine how much worse it'd be if Assad was under Russia's nuclear umbrella. And because of that, we decided to go hog wild with sending anti-tank weapons to Ukranians.

Now we just need 30,000 cubans fighting in Ukraine or Syria to make the situations really fun.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 17:55

Wistful of Dollars: Aug 25, 2009

Mightypeon posted:

Putin is a regional threat to sovereignity, human rights, freedom of press etc.
The USA is a global threat to sovereignity, human rights, freedom of press etc.
I do not live in the region threatened by Russia, therefor I prioritize the threat posed by the USA.
Any additional constraint on the hegemonic USA is good, as long as that constraint has a lower body count then the USA does.
When the cure becomes worse then the disease it changes, and Russia has to murder a lot more people for that.

I can't tell if you're trolling or stupid. Doesn't matter either way, the result's the same.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 17:57

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Domattee posted:

Yeah, I agree, I mean just look at the state of human rights during the cold war! The USA and USSR kept each other in check so well! It worked wonders to keep things like economic or military proxy wars in check. And man, the USA really hosed up that whole Afghanistan thing uh? If only the Soviets had been there first they'd have had no trouble at all. Or this Syria business, imagine how much worse it would be if the Russians hadn't been supplying weapons (including chemical ones) to Assad!

Well, maybe if the US never bombed Iraq into oblivion and killed a shiton of people out of boredom you wouldn't have do deal with this argument today. Mightypeon is the fault of the US.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 18:44

Horns of Hattin: Dec 21, 2011

You have understand, this is a sad week for Mightypeon because it's the 25 anniversary of the Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart (Antifaschistischer Schutzwall) being torn down.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 18:47

Forgall: Oct 16, 2012; by Azathoth

Germany should probably consider shipping him back to Russia.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 18:48

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Forgall posted:

Germany should probably consider shipping him back to Russia.

I always love how lightly you need to scratch in this thread.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 18:51

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Ardennes posted:

I always love how lightly you need to scratch in this thread.

I'm not sure MightyPeon understands precisely how welcome he'd be in Russia, were the Germans to do such.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 18:53

Forgall: Oct 16, 2012; by Azathoth

Ardennes posted:

I always love how lightly you need to scratch in this thread.

Well, they won't, because they are a part of decadent West that he hates so much.

My Imaginary GF posted:

I'm not sure MightyPeon understands precisely how welcome he'd be in Russia, were the Germans to do such.

He'd be very welcome, and he'd get a job at RT in no time.

Forgall fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Nov 9, 2014

# ? Nov 9, 2014 18:53

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

My Imaginary GF posted:

I'm not sure MightyPeon understands precisely how welcome he'd be in Russia, were the Germans to do such.

If he had a visa, no one would really give a poo poo. If he still has citizenship, it depends if he is old enough/too old for service or not.

Otherwise, he might check out the nightlife in Moscow I guess.

Forgall posted:

Well, they won't, because they are a part of decadent West that he hates so much.

Actually, I was talking about you.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Nov 9, 2014

# ? Nov 9, 2014 18:58

twerking on the railroad: Jun 23, 2007; Get on my level

waitwhatno posted:

Well, maybe if the US never bombed Iraq into oblivion and killed a shiton of people out of boredom you wouldn't have do deal with this argument today. Mightypeon is the fault of the US.

Our chickens have truly come home to roost.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 19:01

Forgall: Oct 16, 2012; by Azathoth

Ardennes posted:

Actually, I was talking about you.

I know who you were talking about.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 19:04

3peat: May 6, 2010

This is a great article, and completely spot on http://en.delfi.lt/opinion/opinion-orientalism-reanimated-or-colonial-thinking-in-western-analysts-comments-on-ukraine.d?id=66281048

# ? Nov 9, 2014 19:09

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

It's like every thread is PMSing today.

Anyway, here is a Daily Beast article about how the fall of the Berlin wall radicalized Vova.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/09/how-the-fall-of-the-berlin-wall-radicalized-putin.html

quote:

How the Fall of the Berlin Wall Radicalized Putin
In 1989, as East Germany collapsed around him, a KGB spy in Dresden named Vladimir Putin came to some hard conclusions about power and its paralysis�lessons that would later inform his bellicose geopolitics.

Just when the Putins left the Soviet Union, that country began to change drastically and irrevocably. Mikhail Gorbachev came to power in March 1985. Two years later, he had released all Soviet dissidents from prison and was beginning to loosen the reins on Soviet bloc countries. The KGB leadership as well as its rank and ﬁle perceived Gorbachev�s actions as disastrous. Over the next few years, a chasm would open up between the Party and the KGB, culminating with the failed coup in August 1991.

Watching the changes from afar, surrounded by other secret police ofﬁcers�and no one else�Putin must have felt a hopeless, helpless fury. Back home, KGB leadership was pledging loyalty to the secretary general and his planned reforms. In June 1989, the head of the KGB in Leningrad issued a public statement condemning secret-police crimes committed under Stalin. In East Germany, as in the Soviet Union, people were beginning to come out into the streets to protest, and the unthinkable was quickly beginning to look probable: the two Germanys might be reunited�the land Vladimir Putin had been sent here to guard would just be handed over to the enemy. Everything Putin had worked for was now in doubt; everything he had believed was being mocked. This is the sort of insult that would have prompted the agile little boy and young man that Putin had been to jump the offender and pound him until his fury had subsided. Middle-aged, out-of-shape Putin sat idle and silent as his dreams and hopes for the future were destroyed.

In the late spring and early summer of 1989, Dresden faced its ﬁrst unsanctioned gatherings: handfuls of people collecting in public squares, ﬁrst protesting the rigging of local elections in May and then, like the rest of Germany, demanding the right to emigrate to the West. In August, tens of thousands of East Germans actually traveled east�taking advantage of the lifting of travel restrictions within the Soviet bloc�only to descend on West German embassies in Prague, Budapest, and Warsaw. A series of Monday-night protests began across the cities of East Germany, growing bigger every week. East Germany shut its borders, but it was too late to stem the tide of both emigrants and protesters, and an agreement was ultimately brokered to transport the Germans from east to west. They would travel by train, and the trains would pass through Dresden, the East German city closest to Prague. Indeed, ﬁrst the empty trains would travel through Dresden on their way to pick up the nearly eight thousand East Germans who were occupying the West German embassy in Prague. In the early days of October, thousands of people began to gather at the train station in Dresden�some of them carrying heavy luggage, hoping somehow to hitch a ride to the West, others simply there to witness the most astonishing event in the city�s postwar history.

The crowds met with all the law enforcement Dresden could gather: regular police were joined by various auxiliary security forces, and together they threatened, beat, and detained as many people as they could. Unrest continued for several days. On October 7, Vladimir Putin�s thirty-seventh birthday, East Germany celebrated the ofﬁcial fortieth anniversary of its formation, and riots broke out in Berlin; more than a thousand people were arrested. Two days later, hundreds of thousands came out across the country for another Monday-night demonstration, and their numbers more than doubled two weeks later. On November 9, the Berlin Wall fell, but demonstrations in East Germany continued until the ﬁrst free elections in March.

On January 15, 1990, a crowd formed outside the Stasi headquarters in Berlin to protest the reported destruction of documents by the secret police. The protesters managed to overcome the security forces and enter the building. Elsewhere in East Germany, protesters began storming Ministry of State Security buildings even earlier.

Putin told his biographers that he had been in the crowd and watched people storm the Stasi building in Dresden. �One of the women was screaming, �Look for the entrance to the tunnel under the Elbe River! They have inmates there, standing up to their knees in water.� What inmates was she talking about? Why did she think they were under the Elbe? There were some detention cells there, but, of course, they were not under the Elbe.� Putin generally found the protesters� rage excessive and bewildering. It was his friends and neighbors under attack, the very people with whom he had lived and socialized�exclusively�for the last four years, and he could not imagine any of them were as evil as the crowd claimed: they were just ordinary paper-pushers, like Putin himself.

When the protesters descended on the building where he worked, he was outraged. �I accept the Germans� crashing their own Ministry of State Security headquarters,� he told his biographers a dozen years later. �That�s their internal affair. But we were not their internal affair. It was a serious threat. And we had documents in our building. And no one seemed to care enough to protect us.� The guards at the KGB building must have ﬁred warning shots�Putin said only that they demonstrated their will to do whatever was necessary to protect the building�and the protesters quieted down for a time. When they grew riotous again, Putin claimed, he himself stepped outside. �I asked them what they wanted. I explained that this was a Soviet organization. And someone in the crowd asks, �Why do you have cars with German license plates? What are you doing here, anyway?� Like they knew exactly what we were doing there. I said that our contract allowed us to use German license plates. �And who are you? Your German is too good,� they started screaming. I told them I was an interpreter. These people were very aggressive. I phoned our military representatives and told them what was going on. And they said, �We cannot do anything until we have orders from Moscow. And Moscow is silent.� A few hours later, our military did come and the crowd dispersed. But I remembered that: �Moscow is silent.� I realized that the Soviet Union was ill. It was a fatal illness called paralysis. A paralysis of power.�

His country, which he had served as well as he could, patiently accepting whatever role it saw ﬁt to assign him, had abandoned Putin. He had been scared and powerless to protect himself, and Moscow had been silent. He spent the several hours before the military arrived inside the besieged building, shoving papers into a wood-burning stove until the stove split from the excessive heat. He destroyed everything he and his colleagues had worked to collect: all the contacts, personnel ﬁles, surveillance reports, and, probably, endless press clippings.

Even before the protesters had chased the Stasi out of their buildings, East Germany began the grueling and painful process of purging the Stasi from its society. All of the Putins� neighbors not only lost their jobs but were banned from working in law enforcement, the government, or teaching. �My neighbor with whom I had become friends, spent a week crying,� Ludmila Putina told her husband�s biographers. �She cried for the dream she had lost, for the collapse of everything she had ever believed. Everything had been crushed: their lives, their careers. . . . Katya [Ekaterina, the Putins� younger daughter] had a teacher at her preschool, a wonderful teacher�and she was now banned from working with children. All because she had worked for the Ministry of State Security.� Twelve years later, the incoming ﬁrst lady of post-Soviet Russia still found the logic of lustration incomprehensible and inhumane.

The Putins returned to Leningrad. They carried a twenty-year-old washing machine given to them by their former neighbors�who, even having lost their jobs, enjoyed a higher standard of living than the Putins could hope to attain back in the USSR�and a sum of money in U.S. dollars, sufﬁcient to buy the best Soviet-made car available. This was all they had to show for four and a half years of living abroad�and for Vladimir Putin�s unconsummated spy career. The four of them would be returning to the smaller of the two rooms in the elder Putins� apartment. Ludmila Putina would be reduced to spending most of her time scouring empty store shelves or standing in line to buy basic necessities: this was how most Soviet women spent their time, but after four and a half years of a relatively comfortable life in Germany, it was not only humiliating but frightening. �I was scared to go into stores,� she told interviewers later. �I would try to spend as little time as possible inside, just enough to get the bare necessities�and then I would run home. It was terrible.�

Could there have been a worse way to return to the Soviet Union? Sergei Roldugin, Putin�s cellist friend, remembered him saying, �They cannot do this. How could they? I see that I can make mistakes, but how can these people, whom we think of as the best professionals, make mistakes?� He said he would leave the KGB. �Once a spy, always a spy,� his friend responded; this was a common Soviet saying. Vladimir Putin felt betrayed by his country and his corporation�the only important afﬁliation he had ever known, outside his judo club�but the corporation was ﬁlled with people who increasingly felt betrayed, misled, and abandoned; it would be fair to say this was the KGB�s corporate spirit in 1990.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 19:13

MeLKoR: Dec 23, 2004; by FactsAreUseless

Mightypeon posted:

Putin is a regional threat to sovereignity, human rights, freedom of press etc.
The USA is a global threat to sovereignity, human rights, freedom of press etc.
I do not live in the region threatened by Russia, therefor I prioritize the threat posed by the USA.
Any additional constraint on the hegemonic USA is good, as long as that constraint has a lower body count then the USA does.
When the cure becomes worse then the disease it changes, and Russia has to murder a lot more people for that.

And my point was that he was "good" as in "a hammer is good for punching in nails" when it came to preserving Russias status as a independent power. This is good for Russians, outside of dudes like Navalny and Chodrkovsky, noone wants to go back to Yeltsin.
Heck, the west even lost friggin Gorbatschov.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/michail-gorbatschow-will-bei-angela-merkel-fuer-wladimir-putin-werben-a-1001416.html#ref=plista

Wether it is good for Russias neighbours depends on other factors, largely which other independent powers are around to "influence" you. If the Russian neighbour can turn the influence tug of war over them into a bribing/concession contest, then Russia being a power is good for them (see, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Mongolia in particular would become a Chinese dependency if they couldnt balance Beijing with Moscow), if the polity so internally divided that both competing indepedent powers opt to compete over it with escalating coercion (Ukraine, arguably Georgia) then Russia being a power is bad for them.

Also, I have literally family that demonstrated against the GDR, where actualy dissidents (yeah, that caused some family problems with the more communist aligned family members), fought for a free GDR (distinct from getting annexed by the BRD, "Wir sind das Volk" was first, "Wir sind ein Volk" came considerably later) and are, concerning Ukraine, considerably more "pro Russian" then I am.

Did it occur to you that I point out the disastrous human rights record of the west, and the further detiorating direction of it, because I actually care about human rights, and because I believe that the blatant western hypocrisy concerning this important ideals does perhaps irreversible damage to them? Damage that a direct opponent would not be capable of dealing?

We already have on power where western double standarts and "human rights imports" successfull created a mental firewall between "democracy" and "that may be a good thing for us", that country is Russia and we are paying the price for that now.
And now the West is literally trying to do a more extreme version of the Russians 90s shock therapy, extralegal powertakeovers and "Anti terrorist operations" in Ukraine because that stuff worked really well in Russia?

In which parallel dimension is that possibly going to work?

Have you considered the possibility that you just might in fact be dumb and/or retarded? Christ on a stick man. :psyduck:

Anosmoman posted:

The hegemonic USA presiding over the most peaceful period in human history. Oh the hegemony! But sure let's hope for a multi-polar world where states can systematically dismantle smaller, weaker states at will - it's worked so well the last 10.000 years so why gently caress with it now.

Domattee posted:

Yeah, I agree, I mean just look at the state of human rights during the cold war! The USA and USSR kept each other in check so well! It worked wonders to keep things like economic or military proxy wars in check. And man, the USA really hosed up that whole Afghanistan thing uh? If only the Soviets had been there first they'd have had no trouble at all. Or this Syria business, imagine how much worse it would be if the Russians hadn't been supplying weapons (including chemical ones) to Assad!

# ? Nov 9, 2014 19:23

VoltairePunk: Dec 26, 2012; I have become Umlaut, destroyer of words

MeLKoR posted:

Have you considered the possibility that you just might in fact be dumb and/or retarded? Christ on a stick man.

The Dunning�Kruger effect

# ? Nov 9, 2014 19:58

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 22:24

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

Narcissist Obama

US and Russia discuss the Russia-Ukraine situation in Beijing.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/11/us-russia-find-common-ground-ukraine-201411816486962861.html

# ? Nov 9, 2014 20:01

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Eastern Europe: Poland rip in pis

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