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EightBit posted:Get a Toyota. No, seriously, they are easier to build for it. Leave our rock crawlers alone, IFS doesn't handle the low speed, high-torque stuff as easily or cheaply as solid axles. Did someone say IFS Toyotas in the desert?  Recently got back from my annual pilgrimage to Big Bend with some of my Toyota friends. My album: https://plus.google.com/photos/114262249276831584134/albums/6075805899070653969 My buddy Ben's album: https://plus.google.com/photos/112736801438871221998/albums/6074681792848610689
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Nov 5, 2014 01:28
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EightBit posted:Get a Toyota. No, seriously, they are easier to build for it. Leave our rock crawlers alone, IFS doesn't handle the low speed, high-torque stuff as easily or cheaply as solid axles. I mean, it used to be I would agree with you, but all the new IFS Ultra4 cars seem to deal just fine. Look at the two IFS Ultra4 buggies vs the Solid axle rock bouncers in this video. It seems like hammering these ledges at wide open throttle works just fine even with all the extra CV joints. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MEknHfR218
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Nov 5, 2014 04:50
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jonathan posted:I mean, it used to be I would agree with you, but all the new IFS Ultra4 cars seem to deal just fine. These vehicles are built far beyond what the average person does with their offroad rigs. None of those are JKs, TJs, etc., they're tube-framed race vehicles. I'd like to see the cost of building up one of those rigs and the breakdown between the IFS rig and the all solid-axle rigs. That video even kinda defeats your point, as the guys that fly up that hill get a good shot at bouncing up the first lengths of that hill, and the quality of the hill very visibly degrades after the first guy flies up it spinning tires the entire time. None of the guys after the first guy back up as far or accelerate as quickly up the hill. There's a huge window of driver skill and power to weight ratios here. There's a fat loving goony looking guy wearing no more safety gear than a helmet, for gently caress's sake. Lots of those guys blow the turn and don't take time to get a good bump up the hill. And I never said that solid axles are for racing, they are for slow going, high-articulation, rock crawling. It's like you missed my point on purpose or something.
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Nov 5, 2014 05:38
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Rock Crawling? Articulation is overrated   Just 3 wheel over things and belly flop over them. That being said, that last run in John Bull in big bear is probably my last true rock crawl for a while. I usually always have to replace a bolt or a pitman/idler arm every time I run that in the hummer. The solution of course is to get the new steering gear and setup from the upgraded uparmored HMMWV which is also used on some mraps... some welding and frame modification required.   Probably on my to-do list next year, along with a frame rail swap. I miss my truck. It's been sitting for a year, and a few thousand miles away while I work. 
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Nov 5, 2014 06:09
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I'd always thought an armored HMMWV like an M1165 without the armor would be pretty sweet. It's basically everything improved. The only problem is the dead weight of the steel armor, bullet resistant glass etc which make it handle like a sick tortoise.
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Nov 5, 2014 17:45
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Geology posted:Did someone say IFS Toyotas in the desert? This picture makes me want to quit my job and drive my FJC everywhere forever.
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Nov 5, 2014 21:51
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Geology posted:My album: Are those Rotopax gas cans on (what I assume is) your roof rack? If they are, do they really live up to the promise of not leaking? I love the idea of the low profile and being able to mount them flat, but I'm still not convinced I won't end up with a gas-soaked roof.
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Nov 6, 2014 17:53
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Molten Llama posted:Are those Rotopax gas cans on (what I assume is) your roof rack? Yes, they are rotopax. Yes, one of them leaks a little. Those in particular are 4-gallons each. I'm sure if I called up Rotopax they would send me a replacement cap or at least the rubber grommet, but I just haven't done that yet. Also I've heard that various companies sell nozzles/caps that are in some way superior, but I haven't looked into that either. If I were to buy them again I would have got 2-gallon packs instead of 4-gallon. The 4-gallons are really pretty awkward to handle. The fuel filler on the FJ is about chest-high and it's just annoying to lift those heavy things and angle them up to fill the tank.
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Nov 7, 2014 06:58
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EightBit posted:These vehicles are built far beyond what the average person does with their offroad rigs. None of those are JKs, TJs, etc., they're tube-framed race vehicles. I'd like to see the cost of building up one of those rigs and the breakdown between the IFS rig and the all solid-axle rigs. My point is that IFS can be capable in the rocks and can articulate and be built strong also. The only real advantage to a live axle setup these days seems to be the teeter-totter effect, and price. The video I put up displays that they can survive straight up rock bouncing. If they can do that they can do crawling too.
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Nov 7, 2014 19:13
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jonathan posted:My point is that IFS can be capable in the rocks and can articulate and be built strong also. The only real advantage to a live axle setup these days seems to be the teeter-totter effect, and price. The video I put up displays that they can survive straight up rock bouncing. If they can do that they can do crawling too. So, you're agreeing with me? The teeter-totter effect is precisely what rock-crawlers need to be effective. You can't get articulation like that out of an IFS setup without making the drat thing wider than a HMMWV, which would keep it from fitting into places that are tight for TJs. IFS is for going fast on bumpy courses, not for going slow up nearly-impassable obstacles. If you think that that kind of hill is all that rock-crawlers do, you're also sorely mistaken. That would be a warmup obstacle to make sure your lockers etc. engage, then moving on to something harder.
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Nov 7, 2014 19:31
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IFS/solid axles both do well in King of the Hammers, which involves fast desert racing and incredibly hard rock crawling. You just have to design it right. The problem I have with IFS is of course the complexity and price of modifying an "suv" into something that is legitimately good on rocks. I feel that you would be redesigning the front end quite a bit more than you would with a solid axle design to get the articulation required. [edit]there is an IFS racing Jeep at SEMA I saw pictures of. will have to sign up to see pics, I cant find another source. Has a supercharged LSX under the hood too, its clearly for racing rather than crawling. http://wayalife.com/showthread.php?21677-2014-SEMA-Bilstein-Currie-JKRK-IFS-Jeep-Pick-Up tuna fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Nov 7, 2014 |
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Nov 7, 2014 19:58
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EightBit posted:So, you're agreeing with me? The teeter-totter effect is precisely what rock-crawlers need to be effective. You can't get articulation like that out of an IFS setup without making the drat thing wider than a HMMWV, which would keep it from fitting into places that are tight for TJs. IFS is for going fast on bumpy courses, not for going slow up nearly-impassable obstacles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56CoYeFmGrE
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Nov 8, 2014 04:45
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99% of the time you can overcome the limitations of IFS with lockers anyway. I wish my 100 series had lockers because it would make it perfect- Its a stunning touring vehicle compared to my mates solid axle 105 series and without a front sway bar it still holds its own in the dirt (Toyota managed to get that torsion bar IFS system to work WELL) but cock a wheel at all and its all over. At least with a front locker it wouldnt matter hoiking a leg in the air. As for actual content, we went and played in the Victorian sandy deserts back in early october https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUf8cQFeibU
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Nov 8, 2014 04:58
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God drat, orange truck can eat a tremendous bag of dicks.
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Nov 8, 2014 06:58
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Safety Dance posted:God drat, orange truck can eat a tremendous bag of dicks. That was during king of the hammers and it was an actual race. There is a desert race section and a rock crawl section on the same lap.
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Nov 8, 2014 08:28
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I don't think what you're saying is wrong, EightBit, but with enough money and effort, an IFS setup can be made to work well enough in the crawling area, and still be good at everything else too. I guess Im just tired of compromise. My rubicon setup is fun for what it is, but sometimes I get envy of the raptor guys flying around.
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Nov 8, 2014 08:37
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jonathan posted:I don't think what you're saying is wrong, EightBit, but with enough money and effort, an IFS setup can be made to work well enough in the crawling area, and still be good at everything else too. I guess Im just tired of compromise. My rubicon setup is fun for what it is, but sometimes I get envy of the raptor guys flying around. I keep saying that live axles are cheaper to get the articulation, and that you can't do the articulation in the small package that live axles can. Buy a Toyota or something and stop trying to overengineer our stupid-simple rock rigs. There are kits that let you go blasting down washboard etc. in solid-axle Wranglers, btw. They've been shown in this thread or the Jeep thread. They won't let you just mash pedal to go up stuff, though. That clip is the epitome of douchery. It still shows an IFS setup that can't articulate as well as my TJ, and is wider-looking, to boot. You know what the other half of the teeter-totter effect is? Less body roll, which means that your center of mass doesn't move as much. IFS is a compromise, too. It's not the end-all suspension tech: more parts to maintain/break, I would be surprised if it was lighter than a live axle, more expensive, and you have to pick having a wheelbase that can fit in tight spaces or articulation range. Buy a Toyota. Solid axles are part of Jeep's niche.
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Nov 8, 2014 10:43
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EightBit posted:I keep saying that live axles are cheaper to get the articulation, and that you can't do the articulation in the small package that live axles can. Buy a Toyota or something and stop trying to overengineer our stupid-simple rock rigs. There are kits that let you go blasting down washboard etc. in solid-axle Wranglers, btw. They've been shown in this thread or the Jeep thread. They won't let you just mash pedal to go up stuff, though. In Defense of that clip that was an offroad rally race, and in the rock section (Backdoor), it's a scramble to get up. I think in an interview after he said at the time he didn't realize they had a winch line out. And yeah basically right now I have a low center of gravity build. It's actually 3/4" lower than stock and running 37" tires. 08 Rubicon locked front and rear. It works well for what i've been doing lately but I want to have some fun in the higher speed stuff. In Alberta we have tons and tons of back country high speed roads with nobody on them. It's like desert running, except in the snow. I grew up wheeling in BC which was all technical rock trails so solid axle was perfect. Now it's kind of nice to have something that is good at both so I am doing an artec axle truss front and rear, 3.5" lift coils (thinking of doing the plushride coils), Rusty's Remote res shocks, and either sumosprings bumpstops or I might use in-coil airbags on all 4 corners as tuneable bumpstops. It wont be a desert racer and will be a slight compromise for crawling, but it should be fun ripping around. I also have it set up with near perfect weight balance right now. With gear in the back it's 50kg heavier in the rear. The catch is I don't want to spend a ton on suspension stuff since I want to get a Wildcat X in the spring. First world problems. jonathan fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Nov 8, 2014 |
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Nov 8, 2014 19:40
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jonathan posted:In Defense of that clip that was an offroad rally race, and in the rock section (Backdoor), it's a scramble to get up. I think in an interview after he said at the time he didn't realize they had a winch line out. It seems like encouraging someone to go flying around in a situation where another person may be winching is an incredibly dangerous choice anyway. Feels like they should be signaling the driver in some way or another that a winch line is out.
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Nov 8, 2014 20:04
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That is King of the Hammers, one of the toughest offroad races around. It is every man for himself, no holds barred offroad racing. If you are on the course and in the loving way expect to be driven around. There have been multiple cases of a stuck/broken/rolled vehicle being driven over or around in that way. If you can't deal with that... don't enter King of the Hammers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yshXX6sNC-c Iirc Shannon Campbell was DQed in 2009 for driving over a flopped rig when he could have gone around. Not sure if the other racer that did the same thing to the same rig the same year was also DQed. kastein fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Nov 9, 2014 |
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Nov 9, 2014 18:59
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EightBit posted:IFS chat The entire assembly weighs more than a solid axle of similar. but unsprung weight. thats where IFS will win out. Most solid axles weigh ~200-500lb. cursedshitbox fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Nov 9, 2014 |
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Nov 9, 2014 19:09
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kastein posted:That is King of the Hammers, one of the toughest offroad races around. It is every man for himself, no holds barred offroad racing. If you are on the course and in the loving way expect to be driven around. There have been multiple cases of a stuck/broken/rolled vehicle being driven over or around in that way. If you can't deal with that... don't enter King of the Hammers. LoL at them running after him tossing rocks. Seriously though, it's a high profile big sponsor big money race, but refreshingly raw. Not much in the way of silly politics, less chess more checkers. Pussies need not apply.
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Nov 9, 2014 22:29
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jonathan posted:LoL at them running after him tossing rocks. Seriously though, it's a high profile big sponsor big money race, but refreshingly raw. Not much in the way of silly politics, less chess more checkers. Pussies need not apply. The stone thrower is a sore loving competitor. You don't enter KoTH not willing to do everything you can to win, and expect everyone else to do the same.
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Nov 10, 2014 00:30
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Ozmiander posted:The stone thrower is a sore loving competitor. You don't enter KoTH not willing to do everything you can to win, and expect everyone else to do the same. Stone throwing is apparently a race strategy.
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Nov 10, 2014 01:07
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Ozmiander posted:The stone thrower is a sore loving competitor. You don't enter KoTH not willing to do everything you can to win, and expect everyone else to do the same. Wait people were mad at Tom Wayes? That poo poo happens all the time at Hammers, you will get run over, bumped over or pushed through if you get stuck, that's the nature of the beast. BAJA is like that as is most desert racing series. You got guys in big rear end trophy trucks that can keep up with bikes and they get bottle necked in by some slow poke in a Jeep Cherokee, or Baja Bug, and there's only so long they'll sit behind hitting the siren before you'll get rammed/bumped out of the way if you don't move. Same thing happens especially in the desert sections of Hammers. In fact most of the series I was support in you are pretty much on your own [BITD/SCORE]. Navigator, Driver and your car and that was it. No on track support except in pit areas. If you get stuck on an obstacle, you were pretty much out of the race since your team mates couldn't come help you to push you out or tow you until the track is closed [usually after the last racer has passed you]. One work around to this is to actually have 2 vehicles enter a race and use the second vehicle as a support vehicle [winch/strap/etc] for the first vehicle but with the costs involved you don't generally do that. As for Hammers I don't realistically expect the whole race to be held up by one dude spending a half hour trying to winch his way around a rock with 40 racers waiting behind him. I'm surprised it took that guy waiting next to the winching vehicle to get out of the way. Live track is a dangerous place to be, and desert racing has it pretty bad when you have people get too close to the track, you get things like what happened at the California 200 back in 2010. Big K of Justice fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 17:48
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kastein posted:That is King of the Hammers, one of the toughest offroad races around. It is every man for himself, no holds barred offroad racing. If you are on the course and in the loving way expect to be driven around. There have been multiple cases of a stuck/broken/rolled vehicle being driven over or around in that way. If you can't deal with that... don't enter King of the Hammers. I get it, it just still seems like it's just begging for someone to get run the gently caress over and for the lawyers to start circling. Seems like maybe a rule where you get a short time to try to recover and if you can't, you've got to get yourself out of the way while whoever is coming up behind you gets to use your driver/passenger-less vehicle as another obstacle.
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Nov 10, 2014 18:37
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IOwnCalculus posted:I get it, it just still seems like it's just begging for someone to get run the gently caress over and for the lawyers to start circling. Seems like maybe a rule where you get a short time to try to recover and if you can't, you've got to get yourself out of the way while whoever is coming up behind you gets to use your driver/passenger-less vehicle as another obstacle. There already is a rule. It's called the "Get the gently caress out of traffic's way if you don't want to get flattened" rule.
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Nov 10, 2014 18:38
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Obligatory finished my sas and d/s came in the mail poser shot! Also x-posting my seats from what did you do to your ride today thread. Maybe someone can identify them? I got them on CL guy said they were from a "mid 80s Toyota 4x4" whatever that is, couldn't find that pattern online.    
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Nov 10, 2014 19:46
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Man, those photos make me wish my wife had kept her '86 Toyota 4x4 instead of trading it for a 280ZX.
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Nov 10, 2014 20:31
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Does anyone have experience with Treadwright? All the reviews I'm reading online seem to be almost TOO good. As in perform-and-wear-better-than-new-tires good, which makes me suspicious. I found that I can get 265/70R16 MT tires for $114 each with free shipping. That blows the other options out of the water. I'd be looking at their "Guard Dog" tire since it's the only one they sell in my size. I'd rather have AT tires, especially since their AT is the spitting image of the BFG AT and seems to perform as such, but I'd be stuck with 245/75 or 265/75. I guess the only downside is I might have to get a smaller independent store to mount them because bigger chains apparently won't mount retreads. Though I guess I could request Wrangler MTR casings and most shops wouldn't know the difference. Guard Dog (Wrangler MTR):  Warden AT (BFG AT KO): 
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Nov 14, 2014 01:26
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I've run the BFG AT knockoff on my MJ (and my old old XJ) since 2010. Sandbagger runs the MTR knockoffs on his YJ. I put some of their BFG MT knockoffs on my old XJ this spring and they wore like poo poo (very unevenly and fast) but I'm 95% sure it was my fault, since my balance job was hack as gently caress, only 75% completed, and I drove it like it was a goddamn fighter jet. STILL got 25k out of them. I've only heard of a couple issues with them and they were immediately solved, free, under warranty. I will buy more of their tires.
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Nov 14, 2014 01:38
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kastein posted:I will buy more of their tires. Thanks, that's great feedback. Did you have trouble getting them mounted at all?
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Nov 14, 2014 01:44
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How do you mean? They went on fine when I mounted my set by hand with tire irons, and Sandbagger's went on fine when he had them done at the tire shop in my town, so did my ATs when I had em mounted at walmart four years ago. If you mean tire shops being wary of retreads, nah, I don't think they even noticed. It took some of my friends two years of wheeling with me and an offhand mention of them being treadwrights before they even realized they weren't real BFG ATs. If I hadn't mentioned it they'd STILL think they were the real thing. They're DOT rated retreads, so I doubt they'd care much if they even noticed.
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Nov 14, 2014 01:47
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 My Guard Dogs have been amazing. They've worn well despite a lot of highway miles and they still are super grippy. My only complaint is HOLY poo poo ARE THEY LOUD. I'll probably snag Wardens for my MJ since it'll be primarily road driven.
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Nov 14, 2014 01:58
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Yeah some people on Pirate4x4 and other random sites I found reviews on were saying they had trouble getting tire shops to mount them because they were retreads. Thanks for the input! One last noob question. Is it really worth it going from 245/75R16 to 265/70R16? It's not even an inch wider yet the 265 won't completely fit in my spare tire holder. Also since this Jeep will see highway miles often for road trips the AT would probably make more sense from a grip and reduced road noise perspective. They don't offer the AT in 265/70 though, just 245/75.
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Nov 14, 2014 02:44
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Be aware that Tredwright moved and basically fired all the employees a year or so ago. So the quality you may have had before may not be the same now. When I found that it was enough to scare me off from buying a set a couple months ago until I hear more reviews from people who have bought tires since the change.
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Nov 14, 2014 03:13
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Is the Warden AT still M+S rated?
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Nov 14, 2014 05:30
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Motronic posted:Be aware that Tredwright moved and basically fired all the employees a year or so ago. Interesting. Did not know that.
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Nov 14, 2014 16:36
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Motronic posted:Be aware that Tredwright moved and basically fired all the employees a year or so ago. Their website is vastly improved.
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Nov 14, 2014 17:56
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http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/wheels-tires/340958-zachs-treadwright-review-blowout.html This is the first review I found from 2014. I know it's just one example, but I'm now leaning towards a set of new tires. A blowout at 15k miles like that mixed with lovely customer service is a big problem for me, especially when I have my dog and other people in the car at highway speeds. Plus the fact that I have quadra drive means that even if I do have a blowout and need a tire replaced, I can't have one new tire with three older ones due to wear.
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Nov 14, 2014 18:59
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