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I love sandwiches.
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Nov 10, 2014 15:58
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LemonDrizzle posted:The implication being that the country's residual unemployed are irredeemable scrotes who lack basic time management skills or surprising sandwich making potential? It reads a lot like we're in a meritocracy and those bright people pulled themselves up with their bootstraps to live a better life not making sandwiches because the system works. e: I'm a simple man with simple tastes. Nothing beats a good onion sandwich.
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Nov 10, 2014 16:00
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LemonDrizzle posted:More deficit fun: what would you cut to achieve £48b in savings? The defence budget? Health spending? Funding for Scotland, Wales, and NI? School money? It's all up for grabs! Where's the option to kill and eat the rich?
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Nov 10, 2014 16:02
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Ddraig posted:It reads a lot like we're in a meritocracy and those bright people pulled themselves up with their bootstraps to live a better life not making sandwiches because the system works. Fred West ate raw onions too. Anyway, not sure if a baguette counts, but here you go 
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Nov 10, 2014 16:05
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Maybe we wouldn't need a defence budget if we didn't spend the best part of several centuries killing and maiming across the world. ^^ Raw onions are amazing. Fred West got one thing right at least.
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Nov 10, 2014 16:05
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Ddraig posted:So Paedos are ok as long as they bring their own child. Fair enough, maybe they can arrange some sort of swap meet. At least they'd have to make an effort. I don't think keeping paedos at bay is the reason for the restriction, just an added bonus.
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Nov 10, 2014 16:08
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Years of Tesco sandwiches at lunchtime has left me with an abiding hatred for and fear of cold, gloopy mayonnaise.
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Nov 10, 2014 16:13
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I have been bored and gone to the zoo on my own before, which as a single grown man does make you incredibly self conscious.
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Nov 10, 2014 16:13
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Zephro posted:Years of Tesco sandwiches at lunchtime has left me with an abiding hatred for and fear of cold, gloopy mayonnaise. Have you considered microwaving your sandwiches?
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Nov 10, 2014 16:14
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ronya posted:there was once upon a time when such factories would be staffed with lots of people who were pretty bright but, due to the rigidities of class and birth, were never given the opportunity to get a degree The clearest option from a working class point of view would be to spit in the face of capitalism and make sandwich-making, factory cleaning and low-tier management as attractive an option as middle management, banking and career politics. There's a bunch of possibilities, but the best would probably be to equate the wages. Maybe have a higher one for the cleaners who mop up lovely bathroom floors all day, to make it more enticing. LemonDrizzle posted:More deficit fun: what would you cut to achieve £48b in savings? The defence budget? Health spending? Funding for Scotland, Wales, and NI? School money? It's all up for grabs! We could tap into our large natural land resources by instating land reform. I'm sure the holders of estates in the highlands and the lake district would be happy to acknowledge the many huge problems that the national credit card debt cause to the stability of the country, and losing a few acres here and there is a small price to pay for rescuing the UK from being a third world country (maybe even literally, who knows!). The wealthy job creators are philanthropic like that, y'see.
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Nov 10, 2014 16:16
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Ddraig posted:I have been bored and gone to the zoo on my own before, which as a single grown man does make you incredibly self conscious. Just look at your phone every so often, look annoyed, look at your watch and give an exasperated sigh.
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Nov 10, 2014 16:17
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LemonDrizzle posted:The implication being that the country's residual unemployed are irredeemable scrotes who lack basic time management skills or surprising sandwich making potential? All of the residual unemployment? No. Enough of the residual non-frictional unemployed that sorting through them is cheap enough to justify employing the identified ones to make a literal assembly-line of sandwiches? Without them leaving the moment they have six months of problem-free employment under their belt? A casual glance through complaints about Greencore Group seems to suggest that they demand far more than 'basic' time management skills and sandwich potential. No, they want ridiculous work attendance and an unusual gift at dealing with the stress of particularly intense factory work, and they want you to use that iron discipline and unyielding will to earn minimum wage making sandwiches. I mean, it isn't hard to foretell the future of supermarket sandwiches once they stop having cheap labour to hoover up here, which is this: it disappears from the shelves and is replaced by some other packaged food that is less labour-intensive. ronya fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 16:17
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e: quote is not edit
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Nov 10, 2014 16:22
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I stopped buying tesco sandwiches when I read on the back they import the chicken from Thailand
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Nov 10, 2014 16:29
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Spooky Hyena posted:The clearest option from a working class point of view would be to spit in the face of capitalism and make sandwich-making, factory cleaning and low-tier management as attractive an option as middle management, banking and career politics. There's a bunch of possibilities, but the best would probably be to equate the wages. Maybe have a higher one for the cleaners who mop up lovely bathroom floors all day, to make it more enticing. "But it's a poo poo job, and therefore should have poo poo pay." I'm not sure how you counter this perception, but flipping the terms so it goes "my job is easier, therefore should pay better, because uuuuuuhhhhhh" might help show off why it's an utterly backwards stance to take.
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Nov 10, 2014 16:29
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I am not sure the gosplan in Socialist Working-Class Utopia takes a man with these skills and sets him to work in the sandwich factory, as a note.
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Nov 10, 2014 16:31
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Shelf Adventure posted:Just look at your phone every so often, look annoyed, look at your watch and give an exasperated sigh. No sentence has ever been so British.
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Nov 10, 2014 16:38
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ronya posted:All of the residual unemployment? No. Enough of the residual non-frictional unemployed that sorting through them is cheap enough to justify employing the identified ones to make a literal assembly-line of sandwiches? Without them leaving the moment they have six months of problem-free employment under their belt? Interestingly quite a few complaints about Greencore are about the drug testing. I don't have much sympathy for those complaints to be honest. Renaissance Robot posted:"But it's a poo poo job, and therefore should have poo poo pay." Why is an office job easier than standing on an assembly line?
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Nov 10, 2014 17:27
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I think you've answered your own question there
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Nov 10, 2014 17:30
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Well its a common thing I see. My job is physical so its harder. Its a load of tosh of course.
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Nov 10, 2014 17:38
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there's usually an intermediary about safety in that argument there, since physical jobs tend to involve some amount of physical risk I think discussion of compensation due to labour tends to meander unless someone brings up the paradox of value*, either to general (if petulant) consensus or to some articulate reason to reject it. Arguing about physicality/sedentariness, or national need, etc. doesn't really generate any agreement. Equal dignity runs into the quagmire of unequal demands for income. * you may also recognize the phrase 'labour theory of value'. But of course this is not the Marxism thread. ronya fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 17:43
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serious gaylord posted:Interestingly quite a few complaints about Greencore are about the drug testing. I don't have much sympathy for those complaints to be honest.
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Nov 10, 2014 17:49
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There is also the fact that you can physically do a office job a lot longer than more labour intensive jobs, surely you should get more money if a job actively shortens your working life?
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Nov 10, 2014 17:52
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bitterandtwisted posted:When I worked on an assembly line I had to work hard all the time. In my office job I can browse the forums and chat to people and go get a coffee when I like. My new job requires skills and experience which my old one doesn't, but I sure don't work as hard. Then thats a symptom of your lack of work ethic more than the difficulty of the job. JoylessJester posted:There is also the fact that you can physically do a office job a lot longer than more labour intensive jobs, surely you should get more money if a job actively shortens your working life? Food line work is not 'labour intensive'. You're stood up for 8 hours a day but its not on the level of lugging bricks around a building site.
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Nov 10, 2014 18:00
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Don't forget, jakiri packed ham in a factory. He also had a job there too haha
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Nov 10, 2014 18:00
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Isn't the whole pay thing the fact that you don't need to be particularly skilled to do a line job, so there's a lot more people that can do it which means companies don't have to pay as much. Whilst the higher paying jobs require skills that people want higher pay for because they've invested time and money training for those skills, and presumably are more in demand than the large unskilled pool. Similarly unskilled office jobs that can draw from as large an unskilled pool would be as low paid no? Private Eye fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 18:02
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JoylessJester posted:There is also the fact that you can physically do a office job a lot longer than more labour intensive jobs, surely you should get more money if a job actively shortens your working life? What if you had to go £36k+ in debt to gain the qualifications necessary to perform the job?
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Nov 10, 2014 18:03
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Private Eye posted:Isn't the whole pay thing the fact that you don't need to be particularly skilled to do a line job, so there's a lot more people that can do it which means you don't have to pay as much. Whereas the higher paying jobs require skills that people want higher pay for because they've invested time and money training for those skills, and presumably are more in demand than the large unskilled pool. Office monkey jobs are often paid minimum wage.
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Nov 10, 2014 18:03
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serious gaylord posted:Well its a common thing I see. My job is physical so its harder. Its a load of tosh of course. I was more referring to the hypothetical toilet cleaning gig. It's not that either is really easier or harder than the other, so much as that menial physical labour is thankless poo poo that nobody really wants to do or has an easy time taking pride in, but if you phrase it like that then the obvious retort is that the person working that job deserves bad conditions and bad pay because they didn't strive hard enough in school.
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Nov 10, 2014 18:08
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Private Eye posted:Isn't the whole pay thing the fact that you don't need to be particularly skilled to do a line job, so there's a lot more people that can do it which means companies don't have to pay as much. Whilst the higher paying jobs require skills that people want higher pay for because they've invested time and money training for those skills, and presumably are more in demand than the large unskilled pool. That's the free market justification for underpaying the vast majority of people and overpaying those at the top, yeah. But just because a job is something most people could do (until they can't do it anymore, but that's their problem) it doesn't justify exploiting people for poverty wages
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Nov 10, 2014 18:11
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Private Eye posted:Isn't the whole pay thing the fact that you don't need to be particularly skilled to do a line job, so there's a lot more people that can do it which means companies don't have to pay as much. Whilst the higher paying jobs require skills that people want higher pay for because they've invested time and money training for those skills, and presumably are more in demand than the large unskilled pool. The cause and effect is a bit muddy, there. There are plenty of high-earning jobs that don't require relevant qualifications, just look at the amount of engineer and physics degrees in banking. Intellectual snobbery is a thing that's used to justify wage disparity, rather than the major cause of it. It's a little moot anyway with the amount of exceptions that exist (electricians, nurses and pharmacists are all relatively low paid). Renaissance Robot posted:I was more referring to the hypothetical toilet cleaning gig. It's not that either is really easier or harder than the other, so much as that menial physical labour is thankless poo poo that nobody really wants to do or has an easy time taking pride in, but if you phrase it like that then the obvious retort is that the person working that job deserves bad conditions and bad pay because they didn't strive hard enough in school. I don't know if shattering Serious "Poll tax shouldn't have been abolished and the poors just need to work 20 hours a day like me" Gaylord's just world theory is what you're aiming at, but you've got your work cut out for you if it is. Spooky Hyena fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 18:13
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if you consistently invoke the marginalist theory of labour productivity, you would also observe that the theory has no moral desert in it, sooo
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Nov 10, 2014 18:22
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baka kaba posted:That's the free market justification for underpaying the vast majority of people and overpaying those at the top, yeah. But just because a job is something most people could do (until they can't do it anymore, but that's their problem) it doesn't justify exploiting people for poverty wages It doesn't justify low wages no, but goes some way to explaining the wage structure. Low wages need to be addressed by a hard floor to the structure, with strong minimum and living wages that are well clear of benefits thresholds so that people on those wages aren't needing welfare. Spooky Hyena posted:The cause and effect is a bit muddy, there. There are plenty of high-earning jobs that don't require relevant qualifications, just look at the amount of engineer and physics degrees in banking. Intellectual snobbery is a thing that's used to justify wage disparity, rather than the major cause of it. It's a little moot anyway with the amount of exceptions that exist (electricians, nurses and pharmacists are all relatively low paid). Banking is a weird one, but there isn't really a qualification for it. This is where that often-touted transferable skills comes into play. Engineering and physics degrees give you a good head for numbers and other quantitative and analytical skills that presumably transfer well to banking. Loads of exceptions exist, though interestingly when I was growing up, there was a shortage of plumbers and electricians in the area, so all the teachers were saying "go into plumbing/ be a sparky, they're in demand and are very well paid", which was true. I think as a general rule it hold steady, variations exist around the country because its not one big homogenous mass, different areas need different skills, and trends change with the times as well. This is just the justification thats been taught to me from everybody else including employers, universities, schools and family. Private Eye fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 18:27
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Spooky Hyena posted:I don't know if shattering Serious "Poll tax shouldn't have been abolished and the poors just need to work 20 hours a day like me" Gaylord's just world theory is what you're aiming at, but you've got your work cut out for you if it is. Please quote the post where I have said this, because i'm pretty sure i've never made a single post about the poll tax and you're just making things up again to make yet another personal attack at someone you don't like.
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Nov 10, 2014 18:30
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Plucky Brit posted:What if you had to go £36k+ in debt to gain the qualifications necessary to perform the job? Why would that have any bearing on the issue, especially if the 'debt' isn't so much a conventional debt as a time-limited commitment to pay a slightly higher rate of income tax once your earnings exceed a threshold that is well above the income achievable in most manual/unskilled jobs?
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Nov 10, 2014 18:33
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LemonDrizzle posted:Why would that have any bearing on the issue, especially if the 'debt' isn't so much a conventional debt as a commitment to pay a slightly higher rate of income tax once your earnings exceed a threshold that is well above the income achievable in most manual/unskilled jobs? But you're already paying a higher rate of income tax by earning the higher wage in the first place. That doesnt stack up.
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Nov 10, 2014 18:34
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http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=435693464#435693464 And so on, "  Abolishing poll tax leads to a slippery slope where all tax is dodged! " is just nonsense. But go on, continue with your pissflaps defence.
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Nov 10, 2014 18:35
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Spooky Hyena posted:http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=435693464#435693464 You link to the post and still make up the quote about it. I don't say a single thing about abolishing poll tax nor that it leads to a slippery slope in that link. I think you just like to make personal attacks and don't care about whether they're true or not. Also since you seem to class the pissflaps defence as 'Not letting people post lies' I would hope every poster in this thread would use it.
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Nov 10, 2014 18:38
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serious gaylord posted:Why is an office job easier than standing on an assembly line? Because poo poo as it can be in an office, nothing is as relentlessly soul crushing as minimum wage assembly line work.
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Nov 10, 2014 18:40
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serious gaylord posted:But you're already paying a higher rate of income tax by earning the higher wage in the first place. That doesnt stack up.
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Nov 10, 2014 18:41
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