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Hogge Wild posted:I don't remember Dutch ships being objectionable. What was the context? Referring to something as "dutch-built" is insulting throughout the series. I'm pretty sure that Dutch ships were built with shallower draught than other ships because the Dutch harbours and approaches were super shallow. I think that meant they were somewhat being less seaworthy?
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Nov 10, 2014 15:03
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Okay, royals above t'gallants I forgot that. I do know a lot of the basic stuff, I have been reading up as I go. I mean I know what a capstan is. You said the quarterdeck capstan: is there more than one capstan? If there's more than one no wonder I can't figure out where it is. Is the mainsail the topsail or the course? When they say host the mainsail, are they talking about the main topsail or the main course? Or can the mizzen and foremast be said to have a mainsail too? In any case, the question is whether it's the topsail or the course. The spritsail topsail isn't this?  The sail above the spritsail... the spritsail topsail. Edited for huge. I assumed that the sprit in question was the bowsprit but I didn't understand how the bowsprit could carry a topsail yard. I still don't understand how the Surprise could carry a topsail yard on her bowsprit without having a sprit topmast which she presumably doesn't have or every seaman in the book would comment on it because it's like a Ye Olde Columbus Tymes spar you'd expect to find on a 15th century caravel not a 28-gun sixth rate from the late 18th century. So I assumed it was some kind of jib because again, how can Surprise carry a topsail yard on her bowsprit? I'll have to go back and find a reference to it because it probably has something to do with the jib boom which I only recently found out what that is. I have no doubt that what your picture shows is a spritsail but in looking up sail plans I have often been confounded by the modern dominance of the fore-and-aft rig so that some terms are not presented accurately for their role in a ship rig. About the junk construction; really I want to know how they are built, as in the process. The European ship's frame is laid on the keel and the junk doesn't have a keel as such. I know about the watertight bulkheads (someone comments on it in Nutmeg or 13 Gun Salute) but I had heard that junks had an unusually strong stiff hull and I'm just guessing that the bulkheads aren't the reason, though maybe they are. And as for the undesirability of Dutch-built ships, haven't you heard everyone saying "Dutch-built bugger" and "unhandy Dutch-built tub/whale/sow" so I'm just curious about that. I think one of Jack's daughters even called the other a grass-combing Dutch-built bugger at some point. As an English teacher I also love the flexible way they use "which." Often they'll just jam two sentences together with it. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 15:14
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Maybe it's one of those derogatory expressions against the Dutch like 'going Dutch', 'Dutch courage' and 'Dutch uncle' and has less to do with actual Dutch ships: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_uncle
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Nov 10, 2014 15:16
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Arglebargle III posted:Okay, royals above t'gallants I forgot that. A ship can have more than one capstan, although I'm not sure Suprise does. The "mainsail" is the main course. The terms are interchangeable. Spritsail Topsail sits below the bowsprit on a ship, the yard crosses the bowsprit and the sail is stretched beneath it. http://www.soic.se/en/the-ship/sailmaking/ e: It means something different in a modern fore-and-aft rig, and I think something different again in a gaff type rig. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 15:27
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AlphaDog posted:Referring to something as "dutch-built" is insulting throughout the series. Ah that would make sense; doesn't shallower (and wider) mean less stable on heavy seas? So it would be more likely to broach or capsize. No wonder a professional sailor would dislike them.
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Nov 10, 2014 15:30
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AlphaDog posted:A ship can have more than one capstan, although I'm not sure Suprise does. Thanks. It looks like the yard is on the jib boom which I knew I should have gone back and re-listened to that part because I don't think I knew what the jib boom was when they were talking about the spritsail topsail. I had no idea the jib boom could be so long. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 15:33
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Arglebargle III posted:Ah that would make sense; doesn't shallower (and wider) mean less stable on heavy seas? So it would be more likely to broach or capsize. No wonder a professional sailor would dislike them. They're also slab-sided!
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Nov 10, 2014 15:36
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Arglebargle III posted:Thanks. It looks like the yard is on the jib boom which I knew I should have gone back and re-listened to that part because I don't think I knew what the jib boom was when they were talking about the spritsail topsail. The spritsail yard is secured to the bowsprit. Nope, I'm explaining it wrong. The bowsprit projects from the bow. The spritsail yard is secured to the bowsprit. The jibboom projects forward from the bowsprit, and the stays (guys?) for the jib / jibboom are attached to the spritsail yard. e: The spritsail topsail yard would be attached to the jibbboom, yeah. I'm a loving idiot. You can see them both clearly here: 
Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 15:38
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Colonial Air Force posted:They're also slab-sided! Okay I'll bite, what does that mean? No tumblehome so more unstable still?  Doesn't it look like here that the spritsail topsail yard is on the jib boom? It's really near to the jib tack. Well here was my problem I assumed that the spritsail topsail would have to be above the bowsprit. That's why I was saying it has to be some kind of jib or else I can't imagine where the yard would go. But it's just a topsail in the sense of the bowsprit being another mast and it's further along the bowsprit than the spritsail so it counts as a topsail. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 15:47
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Arglebargle III posted:Okay I'll bite, what does that mean? No tumblehome so more unstable still? Yes. Although the whole "he's a slab-sided Dutch-build bugger" thing is probably best read as "he's a loving ugly stupid motherfucker". Arglebargle III posted:Doesn't it look like here that the spritsail topsail yard is on the jib boom? It's really near to the jib tack. Spritsail Topsail yard is the furthest forward, and yes it's attached to the jibboom. Spritsail yard is the next one aft, and is attached to the bowsprit. e: I screwed up my original description because I persist in thinking of the bowsprit as the entire thing sticking forward off the bow, like it would be called in a modern boat. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 15:53
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Haha yeah I got that from context, but I was curious as to the origin of the term.
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Nov 10, 2014 15:54
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Arglebargle III posted:Okay I'll bite, what does that mean? No tumblehome so more unstable still? http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slab-sided posted:having flat sides; also : being tall or long and lank They use it all the time in the books, also. Interestingly the dictionary claims 1817 is the first time it's known to have been used, which I think makes it an anachronism in the books.
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Nov 10, 2014 15:55
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Okay, so that's cleared up. Any other answers to my questions on the last page? How many degrees is a point on the compass? What are the knees?
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Nov 10, 2014 16:02
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Arglebargle III posted:Okay, so that's cleared up. Any other answers to my questions on the last page? From Wikipedia: In marine navigation, starboard bearings are 'green' and port bearings are 'red'. Thus, in ship navigation, a target directly off the starboard side would be 'Green090' or 'G090'.[6] This method is only used for a relative bearing. A navigator on watch does not always have a corrected compass available with which to give an accurate bearing. If available, the bearing might not be numerate. Therefore, every forty-five degrees of direction from north on the compass was divided into four 'points'. Thus, 32 points of 11.25° each makes a circle of 360°. An object at 022.5° relative would be 'two points off the starboard bow', an object at 101.25° relative would be 'one point abaft the starboard beam' and an object at 213.75° relative would be 'three points on the port quarter'. This method is only used for a relative bearing. And also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knee_%28construction%29
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Nov 10, 2014 16:06
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Well that's embarrassing, I assumed this was historical navigation stuff and wikipedia would only have the modern version. I guess the compass hasn't changed that much huh. edit: Oh and the compass is right by the wheel, so you'd be looking down at the compass when steering so naturally you'd express how close you can turn into the wind by compass points. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 16:10
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Arglebargle III posted:Where is the capstan exactly? I keep thinking it should be amidships in the waist but apparently it's on the quarterdeck?! (On the Surprise.)  Observe two capstans, positioned roughly under the boats, for reference.
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Nov 10, 2014 16:12
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Hey that must be the same Leopard. So on a Portland class 4th rate they are in the waist I guess? Or does the waist refer to the area between the gangways and you can't use it to refer to the gun deck?
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Nov 10, 2014 16:19
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I'm no seaman, but yes, I believe that the waist is the working area, and doesn't extend downward. It is the same Leopard. From Page 3 of this thread: CarterUSM posted:I'm in the midst of reading "Desolation Island" (book #5), and found these quite excellent diagrams for HMS Leopard. While the specifics may change from ship to ship, I'd imagine that the general layout remains fairly similar, so people can use these to orient themselves to the interior of the various ships in the books:
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Nov 10, 2014 16:28
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Hey thanks, I've never been super clear about what the orlop is.
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Nov 10, 2014 16:34
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Wikipedia has helped me out a lot in explaining basic terms and the like, things such as "West by south" is not actually an old way of saying southwest, or points of sail, so on and so forth. If wikipedia doesn't help, a google search, and for many things a google image search, has worked out well. Also I think it's worthwhile to pick up http://www.amazon.com/Sea-Words-Third-Edition-Companion/dp/0805066152 , its got loads of information and diagrams, and a whole dictionary just for these novels. I've found it to be a great help, and have used it constantly throughout the series. The ebook version is decent, you can often use the ereader's search function to find a specific term, but the diagrams aren't formatted well on the ereader screen. I have the paperback version as well, and prefer it. I finished #20 Blue at the Mizzen this last weekend, and what a joy it has been reading these novels, off and on, for a couple years. I read the first one around 2010 after seeing the movie, and it was a huge struggle: my complete ignorance of anything to do with sailing was a huge hindrance to overcoming the wall of nautical jargon of these novels, as I felt the need to know every little thing that was being said and so didn't continue the series when I was finished. Then in 2012 I stumbled onto this thread and some good advice was given early on that anything you need to know in these novels will be explained to Maturin, who knows nothing about ships and sailing himself, and I dove in again re-reading Master and Commander. O'Brian's characterization is top-notch, the development of the friendship of these two opposites Aubrey & Maturin was lovely to read, all the little things O'Brian builds up, their successes & failures, foibles, etc etc. I particularly liked how though Jack & Stephen are exceptional, they don't always succeed, and how crushed I could feel with them when they got knocked around and low. What great novels, I can't say it enough. I am reading 21, though incomplete and unpolished it is still worth reading I think, though in my mind the series ends well with Blue at the Mizzen . PlushCow fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 19:29
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Arglebargle III posted:Mr. Blakeney is Mr. Reed but is he an amalgamation with a character I haven't run into yet? I don't remember any lords in the midshipmen's berth. I think Mr. Babbington. quote:What are the knees? Hanging knees? I finally figured out the chains (which are not chains I think the hanging knees are the curved bits attached to the frame that the cross pieces rest on to support the decks.  I think the knees themselves attach the the keel and support the ribs. In six frigates the author discusses how much effort went into finding live oak specimens that had grown naturally into the shape needed for strong knees. So, you could see why having good knees would be an important quality in a weatherly vessel.  Also, I think the chains were actual chains wrapped around the hull to help hold the whole thing together. quote:As an English teacher I also love the flexible way they use "which." Often they'll just jam two sentences together with it. Which is as it should be, mate. e: VVVVV from your link quote:or, in earlier sailing ships, to lengths of chain along the ship's side. The purpose of which would be to distribute the load along the hull. Bugger your pardon. Murgos fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 19:57
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) but I don't have a good grasp of the rest of the load-bearing structure of the ship.
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EDIT: ^^^ Bugger my pardon, you say! I wonder at it, I truly do, you fat-arsed swab. Let us say pistols for two, coffee for one, ha ha!Murgos posted:
In which it is what the shrouds are attached to on the side of the hull, begging your pardon.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chains_(nautical) PlushCow fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Nov 11, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 20:32
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Wiki says the shrouds used to be literally attached to the frame with chains and the name stuck even after they ceased to be chains. The chains is where the motive force is transferred from the rigging to the hull so you want them to be strong as gently caress. Hence literal metal chains. It makes sense when they talk about the ship hauling under the chains, which the frame is actually slightly warped by the force under a strong load. Here's a question I don't expect to find on Wikipedia. Has the word "chuff" reversed meanings in the last 200 years? I've always heard it mean pleased or happy but in the books it's always used to mean rude or angry.
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Nov 11, 2014 04:10
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Man, I feel like Maturin the last couple pages of this thread. Even after 20 books I still only know the basic terminology (but not where a spritsail is located for example) and I just sort of fumble my way through, waiting for a character to explain it to me.
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Nov 11, 2014 07:29
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Late to the party, but the reason that "Dutch" is used so derogatorily so often is that the English spent hundreds of years fighting the Dutch. It's used sort of like "French" (or freedom) is used in the US currently. But yes, the Dutch ships were designed to be shallow-draft specifically so they could navigate the shallow waters around the Netherlands. Great for that purpose, not so great when you're down in the forties.
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Nov 11, 2014 14:17
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Octy posted:Man, I feel like Maturin the last couple pages of this thread. Even after 20 books I still only know the basic terminology (but not where a spritsail is located for example) and I just sort of fumble my way through, waiting for a character to explain it to me. There are diagrams of the main ships in the series at this site: http://www.thedearsurprise.com/paintings-plans-diagrams-and-history-of-the-surprise/ Some of them might not be super accurate but they're pretty much just supposed to help you visualise the books.
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Nov 11, 2014 14:32
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Awesome, I love navigation. When I was a kid I wanted to read the map and plan the trip for my parents. Hearing about the prevailing winds and currents and lee shores is awesome. I want to hear all about Jack changing course to avoid the unusually variable trades this season.
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Nov 11, 2014 14:39
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I would think that a shallow draft would mean a lot of leeway, which is a pain in the rear end for a number of reasons. (disclaimer: all I know about sailing I know from these books)
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Nov 11, 2014 14:43
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Arglebargle III posted:
The rudder is hung on pintles, which are these hooks welded to a strip of iron which is itself bolted to the stern of the ship. The rudder has loops that sit on the hooks and keep it "hung". Because of the quality of the wood behind these strips of iron (it was either rotten or just mangled beyond use) the Leopards would have had to forge new iron strips (gudgeons?) that were long enough to go out further to where there was solid wood. Edit: bondetamp posted:I would think that a shallow draft would mean a lot of leeway, which is a pain in the rear end for a number of reasons. It is indeed a pain in the rear end, but the Dutch were presented with a problem. They could either learn to deal with leeway or they could limit themselves to ships (frigate-sized or smaller) that could fit in their native waterways and thus lose control of the seas to their chief rival, Britain, which was building massive ships-of-the-line. The Dutch decided to learn better navigation/sailing so they could build giant gently caress-off ships. ItalicSquirrels fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Nov 11, 2014 |
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Nov 11, 2014 14:49
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bondetamp posted:I would think that a shallow draft would mean a lot of leeway, which is a pain in the rear end for a number of reasons. That's right. You'll roll more too. I wish sailing wasn't so drat expensive  e: ItalicSquirrels posted:The rudder is hung on pintles, which are these hooks welded to a strip of iron which is itself bolted to the stern of the ship. The rudder has loops that sit on the hooks and keep it "hung". Because of the quality of the wood behind these strips of iron (it was either rotten or just mangled beyond use) the Leopards would have had to forge new iron strips (gudgeons?) that were long enough to go out further to where there was solid wood. The two connecting pieces are the pintle (pin) and gudgeon (pin-hole), which are forged pieces with (yes) strips that connect them to the hull and the rudder. Generally the pintle is on the rudder and the gudgeon is on the hull, but I'm not sure if they always did it like that - there's not really a benefit to doing it one way or the other on modern smallcraft, though I'm sure with the size of the thing on Leopard there'd be a "right" way round. Modern rudder pintle:  Modern rudder gudgeon:  e2: You'd have 2 of those on small boat's rudder, one toward the top and one toward the bottom. Ships would have more. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Nov 11, 2014 |
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Nov 11, 2014 14:50
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In Nutmeg I think someone mentions that the Malays can never believe how much water the western ships draw. Looking at the diagrams it's hard to believe myself. Half the ship is under the waterline!
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Nov 11, 2014 15:02
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Did O'Brian ever state what part of Ireland Maturin and his family come from? I was thinking the other day that we really know remarkably little about Stephen before he met Jack. 20 books and all we have is "Grew up in Ireland/Spain. Studied in Dublin and Paris. Was involved for a while in republican politics."
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Nov 12, 2014 21:11
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We know about as much about Stephen as we do about Jack. Stephen was born when the American Revolution was at least happening but wasn't yet in britches. He grew up in (please correct me if I've got the wrong relative) his godmother's house in Avilla where his aunt and uncle got into a moral upper-hand war that I believe only ended when one of them died. At 12 he moved to Ireland where Bridey Calhoon (his wet nurse) talked to him in Irish that he didn't understand (which perplexed him since he used to know the language). He went to Trinity College in Dublin where he studied medicine. From there, he did his internship in Paris (he "walked the wards") and danced in the streets during the French Independence in '93. He then returned to Ireland, presumably in a more-or-less private practice. He was deeply attached to a woman named Mona (I think, it's only mentioned once at the very beginning of M&C) as well as Irish independence with the United Irishmen, mainly to further the cause of Catholic Independence but also because gently caress tyranny. The United Irishmen thing went down in flames almost instantly with Stephen's cousin (a Fitzgerald and one of the leaders) being captured at the very beginning. He presumably kept his head low for the next couple years before a patient was convinced to go to the Mediterranean for some undisclosed ailment and Stephen was hired to accompany him. The patient died en route or shortly after arriving and either had no money or had it stolen by his servant, leaving Stephen stuck in Mahon with no money until he decided to go to a concert at the Commandant's house. I'm certain I've gotten some of the particulars wrong, especially names, but I'm almost certain of everything above in general and if I had more free time I could even track all of that down and cite it properly. Edit: But no, I don't remember it ever being mentioned just where in Ireland Stephen spent most of his time. He's more Catalan than anything, really.
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Nov 12, 2014 21:39
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He was fostered in County Clare, which google maps tells me is northeast Ireland. This is probably where his family is from since he offers Padeen a farm in that region (Munster).
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Nov 12, 2014 21:45
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I have a pet theory that we actually see Stephen's dad at one point, which I posted in this thread roughly a year or two ago:Hieronymous Alloy posted:Holy poo poo, did I just read a passage with Stephen's Dad?!? Hieronymous Alloy posted:1) We know Stephen's father was older than he is, a Fitzgerald, in the Spanish military service. "Cousin Fitzgerald" is all three of those things. How many such people were there likely to be? My guess would be not many, and those few details are all we have of Stephen's father, and this guy only shows up for a paragraph and all three are mentioned.
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Nov 12, 2014 21:52
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ItalicSquirrels posted:The biography of Stephen Maturin y Domanova Nice recap! Yah, don't disagree that there are lots of bits and pieces of info dropped throughout the series, but they are fragments of biography and even when the prose is of Maturins diary he never goes into much detail, it's generally him commenting wryly on past events. Jack on the other hand will happily yap away for pages on his various youthful exploits. And I've no doubt that's exactly what O'Brian intended - Stephen is a very private man after all. Now I come to think of it, I don't believe that Jack is ever aware of Stephens involvement in the 1798 rebellion - or at best, has a vague inkling but doesn't ask any questions. BeigeJacket fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Nov 12, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 22:51
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Jack is aware that Stephen is a bastard of the FitzGeralds and that Stephen was friendly with his cousin Edward as well as Stephens generally revolutionary leanings. Also, I recall him telling Jack that he was against the 1798 rebellion and that his experiences with the excesses in the French revolution make him believe that a democratic monarchy is preferable to a pure democracy. I like that theory about 'cousin Patrick' being his father. It fits pretty well. I doubt if we'll ever know how cousin Patrick fits into the FitzGerald dynasty though since it has such a huge and sprawling tree.
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Nov 13, 2014 15:34
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I have a pet theory that we actually see Stephen's dad at one point, which I posted in this thread roughly a year or two ago: In Post Captain it's said that his father was Irish, so I don't think don Patricio would be it, because while Fitzgerald is an Irish name, Saavedra definitely isn't.
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Nov 14, 2014 00:06
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So at my local used book store they have all 20 novels in paperback (same editions too). $6 each. Worth it?
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Nov 14, 2014 02:24
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Prolonged Priapism posted:So at my local used book store they have all 20 novels in paperback (same editions too). $6 each. Worth it? Buy them now! There's not a moment to lose!
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Nov 14, 2014 03:33
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