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Is there an official Goonfleetwaffe rule on how much creeping with intent to ruin lives is allowed? Or is it more of a trickle the doxxing out slowly and see what happens type thing?
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Nov 11, 2014 22:06
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CommonShore posted:It's more that TEST got mangled by CFC spies (there's an article out there detailing it). Digi is what keeps us from being subject to similar manglings. I'd be interested in reading this. Any idea where I can find it?
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Nov 11, 2014 22:06
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evilweasel posted:By definition an outed spy doesn't impact much, so I'm not sure why you think I'd be talking about a spy we outed. Since the entire conversation is about the ethics behind doxxing people in order to root out spies, maybe? If an outed spy doesn't impact much, it seems pretty extreme to doxx people to do that. But the more I learn about this whole thing the more  it all gets. Hah.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:07
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CommonShore posted:It's more that TEST got mangled by CFC spies (there's an article out there detailing it). Digi is what keeps us from being subject to similar manglings. As long as you're blue to 80% of the people you're blue with, having a CFC spy is beyond simple.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:08
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Widestancer posted:Since the entire conversation is about the ethics behind doxxing people in order to root out spies, maybe? He's more meaning that us outing a spy doesn't make a big splash, but should those spies stay undiscovered, the damage is huge. That's where the examples of successful spy actions are given, such as BoB, Fountain (not sure where the link to that article is, somewhere on TMC) etc etc.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:08
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Spiteski posted:He's more meaning that us outing a spy doesn't make a big splash, but should those spies stay undiscovered, the damage is huge. That's where the examples of successful spy actions are given, such as BoB, Fountain (not sure where the link to that article is, somewhere on TMC) etc etc. It's still insanely creepy and weird to doxx people to do that and condoning it, by extension, makes those people kinda creepy and weird too. This is a running theme here, though, so it doesn't surprise me anymore and watching that Margaret Thatcher guy out himself was pretty funny.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:09
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Did that actually take anything beyond "reading his post history on EVE-O?" Well, his YouTube videos were also a damning point of evidence.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:09
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I like the reverse Tiger Protection Rock argument Xolve is going for. Nothing catastrophically bad has happened to us with our current counterintelligence setup, so clearly that means there was never anything to be afraid of and we can just tear it all down.Widestancer posted:It's still insanely creepy and weird to doxx people to do that and condoning it, by extension, makes those people kinda creepy and weird too. This is a running theme here, though, so it doesn't surprise me anymore and watching that Margaret Thatcher guy out himself was pretty funny. His misadventures are old news. He's chilled out a bit and doesn't try to hide from his past, though he did go off the deep end a little bit not so long ago. I agree that doxxing in general is bad and creepy, but at this point it's basically an acknowledged price of taking on significant roles in EVE's space empire metagame and organizations that don't go that far get punished for it in ways that directly impact their ability to have fun (getting your asses kicked and losing all your poo poo is not fun). If you don't want to get that far in, you can just not be a spy or play games that are good on their own merits instead of being a toolbox for mutual sociopathy. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Nov 11, 2014 |
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Nov 11, 2014 22:10
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Widestancer posted:I need to make a larger version of Will this do? 
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Nov 11, 2014 22:10
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Xolve posted:Because that was absolutely necessary to kick over the already defeated, bludgeoned and decaying corpse that was TEST, right (it was hilarious, but exceedingly unnecessary)? 
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Nov 11, 2014 22:10
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lol E: May I borrow this to stick it in the OP of the Archeage thread? I'll give you credit. Eye of Widesauron fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Nov 11, 2014 |
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Nov 11, 2014 22:11
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Xolve posted:As long as you're blue to 80% of the people you're blue with, 
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Nov 11, 2014 22:11
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Widestancer posted:Since the entire conversation is about the ethics behind doxxing people in order to root out spies, maybe? I...don't think you get how spies work. A spy is effective until he's outed. Then he's not effective, because he's booted. So when Xolve asks when a spy actually mattered, we're going to discuss spies that did not get outed while doing their work. You catch and boot spies precisely so they no longer matter and don't impact much. Digi doesn't go around posting what he finds out about people besides having their spies booted. What people think of when you say doxxing, like the gamergate poo poo, isn't at all what's going on. He did one time deservedly get criticism for posting something that (to the person involved) made it clear what he'd found. I think that before you go around talking about how creepy people are it might actually pay to figure out what you're talking about as you don't really seem to have even the basics down.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:13
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For those still not aware a Neo-nazi tried to run for CSM - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2832691#post2832691 That was pretty great because at the same time the Lulzsec DDOS on EVE happened and Xenuria somehow got barred from running that year and cried pretty hard about it.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:14
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evilweasel posted:I...don't think you get how spies work.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:15
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Unfunny Poster posted:For those still not aware a Neo-nazi tried to run for CSM - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2832691#post2832691 No, see, that was the second time he ran for the CSM. The first time they just edited out all references to it and banned anyone who repeatedly pointed out the posts he'd made (on the eve-o forums, not elsewhere) randomly digressing from a fitting discussion to discuss racial purity.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:16
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Blazing Zero posted:So digging into people's personal jank is a-ok as long as it's in the name of defending goonswarm and he keeps it to himself? you didn't really read what he said did you
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Nov 11, 2014 22:16
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evilweasel posted:He did one time deservedly get criticism for posting something that (to the person involved) made it clear what he'd found. You do realize that even doing it once, is creepy as gently caress right? evilweasel posted:No, see, that was the second time he ran for the CSM. The first time they just edited out all references to it and banned anyone who repeatedly pointed out the posts he'd made (on the eve-o forums, not elsewhere) randomly digressing from a fitting discussion to discuss racial purity. Ah, my mistake. I thought that was the first year he ran.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:17
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evilweasel posted:I...don't think you get how spies work. That makes sense, about the spies being effective until they're outed. I'm not sure what you mean by doxxing and gamergate poo poo, though. I actively try not to pay attention to that stuff since it's a neural genocide of really hateful vitriol that no one wants to deal with. I mean, if you have a guy that's going around offsite digging stuff up about people in their personal lives, he's doxxing them. That's what I think of when I think of doxxing. So, he's doxxing people but it's nor really creepy and weird because he's not posting it? Just trying to get on the same page here. I mean, I guess that's better than if he actually posted it. But it's still really creepy and weird to go play internet detective on people because of a video game. I feel like we're not on the same page here and I'd like to be. This is an interesting ethical discussion.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:17
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Unfunny Poster posted:You do realize that even doing it once, is creepy as gently caress right? It is probably better if you actually read my post before asking questions about it because the answer to this one is in there.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:18
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pretty sure we aren't gonna kick our counterintelligence direkkktor because a bunch of people outside the organization have fomented some weird vignette about how things went down based on posting from kugutsumen dot com
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Nov 11, 2014 22:19
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which I need remind you is now a site about human souls and whales I think?
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Nov 11, 2014 22:20
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Glory of Arioch posted:pretty sure we aren't gonna kick our counterintelligence direkkktor because a bunch of people outside the organization have fomented some weird vignette about how things went down based on posting from kugutsumen dot com That would be a really dumb thing to do. It doesn't mean that we can't laugh at it. Hell, even you guys seem to be okay with laughing at it.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:21
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Glory of Arioch posted:you didn't really read what he said did you evilweasel posted:Digi doesn't go around posting what he finds out about people besides having their spies booted. That reads to me like it's okay to creep on people so long as digi doesn't post it publically? Or did I misunderstand? I just want to know because yeah I knew people used APIs and wallet transactions to root out spies but trying to be mini NSA on folks for a video game seems pretty weird.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:21
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Unfunny Poster posted:For those still not aware a Neo-nazi tried to run for CSM - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2832691#post2832691 CSM is so much better than real voting. If only they let the final seats be decided by a game of musical chairs or a cage match or something live on the fanfest stage, it would be perfect.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:21
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Widestancer posted:That makes sense, about the spies being effective until they're outed. I'm not sure what you mean by doxxing and gamergate poo poo, though. I actively try not to pay attention to that stuff since it's a neural genocide of really hateful vitriol that no one wants to deal with. I mean, if you have a guy that's going around offsite digging stuff up about people in their personal lives, he's doxxing them. That's what I think of when I think of doxxing. So, he's doxxing people but it's nor really creepy and weird because he's not posting it? Just trying to get on the same page here. Taking a position of space authority in this game is basically volunteering to get doxxed because by now everyone knows what can happen if you don't make sure people are who they say they are. It's not pleasant, but it's required for the larger organizations to function. Intent does matter in this instance, because it's meant to be an identity verification rather than a tool for public embarrassment and the information should never go any further than is necessary to fulfill that purpose.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:22
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The Digi rage is really dumb. He is a perfectly acceptable practitioner of the meta game, with the exception of the Manny incident, which was dealt with appropriately. We're fortunate to have him.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:23
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Widestancer posted:That makes sense, about the spies being effective until they're outed. I'm not sure what you mean by doxxing and gamergate poo poo, though. I actively try not to pay attention to that stuff since it's a neural genocide of really hateful vitriol that no one wants to deal with. I mean, if you have a guy that's going around offsite digging stuff up about people in their personal lives, he's doxxing them. That's what I think of when I think of doxxing. So, he's doxxing people but it's nor really creepy and weird because he's not posting it? Just trying to get on the same page here. What digi is doing is linking one eve identity to another which is what eve counterintelligence is - everyone in EVE has someone who does it, they're just generally not as good as digi is. I do not have any qualms about it while it stays strictly in-game because it's a fundamental part of a game that allows and promotes spying. It is roughly similar to how I do not have qualms about people hitting each other in the face while they're boxing.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:23
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TEST died before you even invaded, there was about a month of them getting their collective poo poo pushed in by a PL/CFC brofist; Fountain went the same way Branch did. Still regret saving Aerallo's titan though.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:23
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Voyager I posted:Taking a position of space authority in this game is basically volunteering to get doxxed because by now everyone knows what can happen if you don't make sure people are who they say they are. It's not pleasant, but it's required for the larger organizations to function. Intent does matter in this instance, because it's meant to be an identity verification rather than a tool for public embarrassment and the information should never go any further than is necessary to fulfill that purpose. Why would anyone ever tie any of their in game stuff to their real life identity, though? If someone is smart enough not to do that (and there are very many good reasons to conceal that sort of thing) does that mean that they can't get to those positions? E: If it's all just in game stuff, yeah, that makes sense. If it's out of game, gently caress that. Eye of Widesauron fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Nov 11, 2014 |
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Nov 11, 2014 22:23
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Xolve posted:TEST died before you even invaded, there was about a month of them getting their collective poo poo pushed in by a PL/CFC brofist; Fountain went the same way Branch did. 
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Nov 11, 2014 22:24
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evilweasel posted:What digi is doing is linking one eve identity to another which is what eve counterintelligence is - everyone in EVE has someone who does it, they're just generally not as good as digi is. I do not have any qualms about it while it stays strictly in-game because it's a fundamental part of a game that allows and promotes spying. It is roughly similar to how I do not have qualms about people hitting each other in the face while they're boxing. That makes sense, yeah. If it's in the same game, that's totally legit. If anyone's going offsite and out of the game, though, that's pretty weird. I really hope that hasn't happened outside of the one guy who outed himself earlier in that unintentionally funny post. That was pretty good and I got my laugh for the day out of it: Margaret Thatcher posted:When I was 13, I really liked the idea of joining Goonswarm. In particular, I liked the idea of The Mittani. I thought I could get him to invite me to the corp by posting his real name on the forums and making weird YouTube videos where I sung to him. Still makes me laugh at him.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:26
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Xolve posted:TEST died before you even invaded, there was about a month of them getting their collective poo poo pushed in by a PL/CFC brofist; Fountain went the same way Branch did. If we were only fighting TEST in Fountain, you'd be correct. But we weren't. Our beachhead, 4-EP, really should have fallen early on in the war - it was on its final shield timer and a massive NC. supercarrier fleet cynoed into the system. That was before we'd actually unfucked our doctrines and could combat that with...low dps tengus. People usually forget how dicey the first few weeks of that invasion were, before 4-EP got a jammer and all hell broke lose (also, after someone dropped all of Nulli's renter sov and they had to run back and grind it). But that was a really close affair and a huge reason NC. never managed to go on the offensive enough to push us out was their effort being completely wasted by TEST's incorrect timer board and vanishing SBUs.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:28
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Widestancer posted:Why would anyone ever tie any of their in game stuff to their real life identity, though? If someone is smart enough not to do that (and there are very many good reasons to conceal that sort of thing) does that mean that they can't get to those positions? This one is over my head, but I can imagine that someone who existed only as a sanitized set of essential information that couldn't be cross-checked against anything else might run into a trust barrier. EDIT: this is out of game stuff. Joining any serious organization, even as a basic line member, will invariably mean handing over full access API keys that let them see everything you do in the game; your wallet history, your messages, your assets, your contacts, etc. Making a sanitized account means essentially starting a character over from scratch without any outside help and is a significant effort barrier to people who would otherwise be happy to join a group just to torpedo a few expensive ships and then run off cackling (which is a whoooole lot of people). For taking on positions of space importance, people will dig to your real-life identity. Nobody is dumb enough to use in-game tools for anything, especially when surrendering your in-game privacy is a given. I don't have any personal experience here, but I'd wager anyone taking on a position that requires that level of investigation is probably already investing enough of their real life efforts into making their organization work that they are okay with surrendering some basic personal information to be certain that the people they're working alongside aren't trying to subvert their efforts. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Nov 11, 2014 |
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Nov 11, 2014 22:29
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Widestancer posted:Still makes me laugh at him. Margaret Thatcher is leaving off that while he's not still making those videos, he still is obsessed with joining goonswarm to an unhealthy degree and seems to slip in and get banned every few weeks.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:29
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This thread really needs to die, and we need to wait a couple weeks to start a new one.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:29
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Voyager I posted:This one is over my head, but I can imagine that someone who existed only as a sanitized set of essential information that couldn't be cross-checked against anything else might run into a trust barrier. If someone doesn't exist as only that online they run into the very real threat of being assaulted or sexually assaulted (people get REALLY weird about certain things online). I'll take my chances with having to overcome a trust barrier.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:30
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evilweasel posted:Margaret Thatcher is leaving off that while he's not still making those videos, he still is obsessed with joining goonswarm to an unhealthy degree and seems to slip in and get banned every few weeks. Everyone laugh at Margaret Thatcher if this is true.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:31
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Widestancer posted:Why would anyone ever tie any of their in game stuff to their real life identity, though? If someone is smart enough not to do that (and there are very many good reasons to conceal that sort of thing) does that mean that they can't get to those positions? I am not aware of any EVE groups that require disclosing your IRL identity to join. I don't think anyone knew who I was when I got made a goonswarm director and I certainly wasn't asked. That said, at the highest levels of the game many of the sovholding entities are run by people who know each other IRL to a certain degree (either previously or they've gotten to know each other) because that's one of the ways you can get people who actually trust each other enough. edit: I'm wrong, one organization you must disclose your IRL identity to join is the CSM. However that's CCP enforcing that rule and they've basically said they do it because they can't and won't guarantee to keep you identity secret (and people have protested this repeatedly). I know of several people who absolutely refuse to run as a result.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:35
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evilweasel posted:What digi is doing is linking one eve identity to another which is what eve counterintelligence is - everyone in EVE has someone who does it, they're just generally not as good as digi is. I do not have any qualms about it while it stays strictly in-game because it's a fundamental part of a game that allows and promotes spying. It is roughly similar to how I do not have qualms about people hitting each other in the face while they're boxing. So, when he convos me in-game referencing my real life name and bringing up my real life background etc. you agree that's creepy as poo poo right? That was also about two months or so before the Manny incident.
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Nov 11, 2014 22:38
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