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NYC doesn't have to be very expensive unless you insist on living in Manhattan (bad with money).
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Nov 12, 2014 17:52
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Jastiger posted:I find this rent vs mortgage chat interesting though. A lot of this assumes you take every last dollar you have and either invest/set aside while keeping an eye to what you would be paying in a mortgage. I know I'm not able to do it, and I doubt a lot of others are, but are people really able to say "up up up! Can't go to McD's today, that would push my cost of rent vs mortgage over .05% and I'd be LOSING money by renting!"
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Nov 12, 2014 17:55
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"I can't eat out today because I'm at my budget cap for eating out this month" is not a tough decision to make. If you can't make it see a therapist or something. Yes, we all probably slip up. I went over some budgets last month. But if you can't stop yourself from eating out when you're out of money to eat out with a therapist is where to go. Being an adult means sometimes learning to say "no" to yourself. The only way you could actually think people walk around with sliderules and live spreadsheets tracking their rent/buy break even point is because you want to excuse not budgeting properly as too hard.
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Nov 12, 2014 18:01
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The point of living in the city is there are 10000 things to do so you don't have to spend most of your time in your apartment. My apartment is basically crash space and I think that, even if I had a house, I'd mainly use "bedroom, living room, kitchen, and bathroom" which is what I have now. I think I value space less than many others though, and if you have kids or want pets the equation changes. Throwing away clutter is a great feeling but I feel like I would never do it if I could have whole rooms full of crap.
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Nov 12, 2014 18:03
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Anne Whateley posted:If you like living in the middle of nowhere, knock yourself out, but you're missing the entire point: in Chicago you would not be making the same. Half your posts itt are bad with money. That's not really true. From what I could find, the cost of living almost doubles in large cities from middle American cities. But the only increase in income only seems to improve from 15% (median income) to 50% (specific industries - tech is the biggest increase I could find). My career's average salary only seems to increase about 15% by moving to NYC or Boston. Generally, you are financially better off by living anywhere but a big city. Meanwhile, since the internet is a thing, the differences in quality of life and the availability of goods and services are decreasing every year. But you bring this up and you only ever get a couple responses 1) you don't understand, The City is and adventure, man 2) hyuk hyuk at least I'm not in flyover country It gets old. What lures people to these money pits? I know it isn't the smell. Also this: Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:NYC doesn't have to be very expensive ... is generally false. Because everybody who lives there also has to cover the additional costs of food and housing, they charge more for every good or service they sell. And even if you can build a life as cost effective in NYC as you can elsewhere, you're still going to spend a ton more effort doing it.
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Nov 12, 2014 18:12
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Folly posted:That's not really true. From what I could find, the cost of living almost doubles in large cities from middle American cities. But the only increase in income only seems to improve from 15% (median income) to 50% (specific industries - tech is the biggest increase I could find). My career's average salary only seems to increase about 15% by moving to NYC or Boston. Generally, you are financially better off by living anywhere but a big city. Meanwhile, since the internet is a thing, the differences in quality of life and the availability of goods and services are decreasing every year. Was in the middle of doing research on this too. Sure, you make more money in cities, you really do. But it generally, for the same type of work, doesn't match the increased cost of real estate. The increase in housing is way higher than the bump in salary you would get, not to mention things like taxes, insurance, and other things that tend to be higher in those areas. You probably spend less on gas and transit than you would in the Midwest though. I'm not sure that offsets the cost of housing.
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Nov 12, 2014 18:16
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:and if you have kids or want pets the equation changes. Hobbies and income opportunities are other consideration. Gardening, for instance. I have two apple trees and four apricot trees in my back yard, that wouldn't be possible with an apartment. Likewise it would be quite hard for some people to make a bit of extra cash doing work on cars from the surface lot of their apartment block while it is quite possible from their garage.
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Nov 12, 2014 18:17
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I was certainly able to do better financially by moving to a big city but I was pretty aggressive about negotiating salary. It's still a bigger proportion of my income than before but the extra money to save on top of that goes straight to savings. Personally there was a huge improvement in my quality of life by not having a 30 minute drive between any two places I wanted to go, but that's pretty personal subjective thing and it is hard to put a dollar rating on.Antifreeze Head posted:Hobbies and income opportunities are other consideration. Gardening, for instance. I have two apple trees and four apricot trees in my back yard, that wouldn't be possible with an apartment. Likewise it would be quite hard for some people to make a bit of extra cash doing work on cars from the surface lot of their apartment block while it is quite possible from their garage. Yep, absolutely true, I meant to include this when I first wrote that post and forgot by the end of it. There are ways you can work around it but it is absolutely a concern if your hobbies demand space like that. Also a parking space near my apartment would cost me $300+ per month, no way am I doing that, so I don't even get a surface lot spot. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 12, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 18:24
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Those list Nassau County as around 30% more expensive than the small town I currently live in, and Brooklyn at 60%, which corresponds with my lived experience. e: And an "equivalent salary" will net you more savings in absolute dollars. Kiwi Ghost Chips fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Nov 12, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 18:25
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And some cities don't have high COL, like Chicago. And living at a high COL with high debt is actually good, if you're paying it off, because debt is nominal. If I moved back to New Orleans and had an income-adjusted COL to live the same quality life, my loans would be more expensive relative to my income. In a higher COL city, it's less expensive. Adding more debt at a lower cost of living area (like, say, college towns) and moving to work in a higher one is logically a great way to handle that debt. Of course, someone will quote this now and say "it all depends" but everything loving depends. The point is to actually think about what you are doing, and whether it is a good idea for you or not, not to follow some hard rules people set out.
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Nov 12, 2014 18:27
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moana posted:What the gently caress does other spending have to do with whether it's better to rent or buy? And no, we wake up and say "Can't go to McDs today because it's the worst loving food, jesus, I would only eat at McDs if I lived in Iowa and couldn't find any dirt to eat instead" You're pretending that all people are rational. It's a big mistake. People are actually Predictably Irrational, and given this, he brings up a good point. Sure, those of us who post in BFC that have mastered self-control can sit back and work out the mathematically logical and rational thing to do when it comes to rent-vs-by, but some people actually should lean more towards buying because it's forced savings, and they'd just piss away the excess income they have from renting on McDonalds and high-priced graphics cards rather than actually invest it. I'm not saying that for the low self-control folks buying is ALWAYS better, but it's just another factor that should be included in the rent-vs-by analysis. The New York Times should add a slider for rating the notion of "Truck Equity" as a plausible one, and if the user slides towards plausible, put more weight toward buying.
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Nov 12, 2014 18:33
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Even worse than living in the city is living in a suburb near a big city. My wife has coworkers up in New Jersey and their property taxes are 10 times what we spend. Do property taxes scale progressively or is it a more linear rise as your home value increases? Because if it's linear then that's gotta suck even for low income homeowners.
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Nov 12, 2014 18:33
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Folly posted:Meanwhile, since the internet is a thing, the differences in quality of life and the availability of goods and services are decreasing every year. Congratulations, you can get Amazon to bring knickknacks to your little hamlet. I'm just going to rehash the same tired argument, but a city provides far, far greater entertainment and cultural opportunities than small towns. If those aren't things you value then it's obviously not going to be worth the increased cost/hassle, so carry on ordering things from the internet to fill the void in your life with things for your big old house.
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Nov 12, 2014 18:34
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:Those list Nassau County as around 30% more expensive than the small town I currently live in, and Brooklyn at 60%, which corresponds with my lived experience. That's absolutely true. But generally (not to say there aren't exceptions), the salary increases are proportionately less than the cost of living. Hence the general rule about living in the the city being more expensive. I'm pretty sure that these massive cost differences drive a lot of our current red state/blue city politics. Where I live, the maximum food stamp allotment for a family like mine exceeds my monthly grocery bill by 25%. But in Brooklyn, even after you account for the fact that food stamps pay out more there, I'd only be under budget by 5% - which is so little wiggle room that even at top efficiency, you're going short a few meals each year. So of course people on opposite sides of that experience are going to disagree about whether the current benefit is appropriate.
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Nov 12, 2014 18:37
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Folly posted:That's not really true. From what I could find, the cost of living almost doubles in large cities from middle American cities. But the only increase in income only seems to improve from 15% (median income) to 50% (specific industries - tech is the biggest increase I could find). My career's average salary only seems to increase about 15% by moving to NYC or Boston. Generally, you are financially better off by living anywhere but a big city. Meanwhile, since the internet is a thing, the differences in quality of life and the availability of goods and services are decreasing every year. There are absolutely poor people in NYC dragging down the median. But we're talking to an audience of goons. I think pretty much everyone is at least qualified to work in call centers, most aren't homeless, etc. I think average+ people generally do profit from moving to the city (although personal preference obviously trumps cash alone). Also, you note that the internet is a thing and it's increasing -- but one of its main effects is providing goods to big-city people at Midwest prices. I get my health & beauty stuff online for a significant savings. Meanwhile the internet can't bring small-towners good food, live performances, etc. Do you have any info on the COL calculators? Mine is claiming transportation in NYC is more expensive than in Podunk, so uhhh I think there might be issues. One pitfall is comparing housing prices and salaries within a zip code or neighboring zip codes. This definitely makes cities look bad, because almost nobody in NYC who works in midtown/FiDi lives there. You make a good salary there, but then you commute to outer boroughs, JC, Harlem, etc. where housing costs are much lower.
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Nov 12, 2014 18:37
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i like nice words
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Krispy Kareem posted:Even worse than living in the city is living in a suburb near a big city. My wife has coworkers up in New Jersey and their property taxes are 10 times what we spend. I think property taxes are generally linear.
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Nov 12, 2014 18:53
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gvibes posted:Chicago proper is at ~1.8%, whereas suburbs range from ~1.2% all the way up to 6 or 7%. Of course, the suburbs with 6-7% property taxes have vastly better school systems, which is the point since there is no city tax.
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Nov 12, 2014 19:00
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Nail Rat posted:Of course, the suburbs with 6-7% property taxes have vastly better school systems, which is the point since there is no city tax.
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Nov 12, 2014 19:07
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Anne Whateley posted:I personally am in NYC because that's where my industry is and I make good money doing it. If I stayed in my one-horse hometown, I would probably be a miserable secretary making like $20k and doing miserable web design and IT on the side for pennies. There is a difference between NYC and a one horse town. Ahem, Des Moines is a "city", is no where near as big as NYC, has relatively higher taxes compared to other similarly sized cities, and there are plenty of jobs. I feel like you got all defensive when people started talking about "living in the city". I think dollar for dollar you pay more for the same things than someone in say, Minneapolis or Chicago does. You pay for the culture. No problem in that, but when we are talking about "renting vs buying" there are so many other factors that we can't really say one is always better. I mean we can even throw in the variable of pets and we see an immediate shift in the cost/benefit analysis.
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Nov 12, 2014 19:17
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Barry posted:I'm just going to rehash the same tired argument, but a city provides far, far greater entertainment and cultural opportunities than small towns. If those aren't things you value then it's obviously not going to be worth the increased cost/hassle, so carry on ordering things from the internet to fill the void in your life with things for your big old house. This is true, but isn't strictly relevant. The main comparison being made here is Des Moines to a top 5 US city, not 5000 person farming town to a top 5 US city. I have no doubt there are way more things to do in NYC than there are in Des Moines, but Des Moines isn't a complete backwater either. There are diminishing returns to increased entertainment options, since there are only so many free hours in a day. The argument isn't "either you're sitting at home on your cattle farm or you're spending $2000+ a month for an apartment." It is, "are the added lifestyle benefits worth the ~$1200+ rent plus other cost of living differences between NYC and Des Moines." Obviously, for some people, the answer will be yes, since NYC/SF/etc exist. For some people it won't, and I don't think it is productive argument to say that those people are uncultured hillbillys who don't know better. Obviously, I have a horse in this argument, since I live in Madison WI, which is a lot closer to Des Moines than Seattle. I've thought about moving, and still might, but I have ran the numbers, including an actual job offer in my (software) field, and in a strictly financial sense, I would be worse off. VVV No arguments with this post. There is definitely less to do here (~500k population) on a daily basis here than there would be in, say, Portland (~3m metro population). Grumpwagon fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Nov 12, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 19:19
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I suppose I didn't realize that Des Moines was the benchmark. You're right, at that point it's more nebulous. I've never been to Des Moines but my job/life has taken me to any amount of other American cities, small and large, and I've found that there are some pretty significant differences (in the areas I stated, entertainment and culture) between a place with 200k people and 2M people. You gain a lot more variety. Whether that's worth the increased price/day to day hassle is the question.
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Nov 12, 2014 19:30
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Unfortunately, I think all of the calculators use COLI.org, which is a paid service and this is BFC. It's probably counting the cost of owning a car plus additional taxes and high gas prices, so you're probably right about it not being accurate. But all of them said they don't count taxes. Most towns don't have payroll taxes, and that can be another 5-10% right off the top. Also, these debates seem to keep assuming that the choices are either the 2-light town where my parents live is the only counter to a huge city. There are a dozens of cities with population of about 500k to 1 million that offer 90% of what you can find in NYC. Sure, there isn't much of a "scene" but there is live music and the national acts tour through. There isn't Broadway, but there are live theaters. The melting pot isn't quite as extensive as NYC, but it's not exactly culturally monotonous either. Remember that I can spend HALF of the price difference between my little city and Brooklyn to spend 4 weeks living at the Waldorf every year with a $10,000 entertainment and food budget and I'd still be putting more money in the bank than I would if I lived there. And, I don't have to travel to NYC. Any city on the map can get that same trip, so maybe this year NYC, next year San Fran, after that Brussels. I'm not certain that it's fair to say that I don't have cultural opportunities, I just have different ones and they have to be planned. On the other side, though, because they are planned I am much more likely to get what I pay for out of them. And it's not like there aren't things to do here,either. I'm surrounded by horse farms, if my kids want to ride they can walk to the lessons. My yard is not quite an acre, so I can have a huge garden on it. There's great hiking within an hour of here. On the city side, my son takes Jiu-Jitsu classes from a former World Champion. And thanks to the internet, he can take CS101 from Stanford and Art Appreciation from MoMA as soon as he's ready. Seriously, the internet isn't even primarily about the poo poo I can buy from Amazon. I know it's not the same as being there, but then being there probably isn't the same without the lessons. Fake edit: Ah, I see my main point is covered.
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Nov 12, 2014 19:33
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I wanted to follow up on my earlier post where I was the bad with money. My company has two annual enrollment dates for a 401k and I just missed the first one when I was hired; I'll start contributing in a month when it opens again. I can also view my pay stubs online, I'm just an idiot. Turns out I'm not the bad with money.
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Nov 12, 2014 19:35
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Can we get back on topic and take the housing argument to another thread? Here's a couple on Reddit with $350k in student loan debt from Drexel. She has an Interior Design degree, he's a mechanical engineer. How do you rack up that much in loans without a plan to get into a high-paying job? quote:Hi, my husband and I need help. We live in NJ and we are buried under my student loans and his kick in next month. I have $150,000 left and my husband is close to $200,000. We took the money for school and we want to pay it all back but the monthly payments are way more than we can afford. My debt is all in private loans, and I'm already at the minimum monthly payments ($1400 just for mine). Our loan companies are unwilling to work with us, our parents co-signed (so I'm trying not to kill their credit), and the loans are too large to consolidate. I've done so much research and I don't know what else to do. Is there anyone who can help me out? I'm willing to answer any and all questions. Thank you!
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Nov 12, 2014 21:12
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Anne Whateley posted:Do you have any info on the COL calculators? Mine is claiming transportation in NYC is more expensive than in Podunk, so uhhh I think there might be issues.
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Nov 12, 2014 21:20
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Nocheez posted:Here's a couple on Reddit with $350k in student loan debt from Drexel. She has an Interior Design degree, he's a mechanical engineer. How do you rack up that much in loans without a plan to get into a high-paying job?  I'm not really into bashing people's choice of degree, but why the heck would anyone be compelled to study that in a four-year undergrad program instead of a shorter, less expensive program at a local community college?
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Nov 12, 2014 21:57
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melon cat posted:She spent $150,000 for a degree in Interior Design? I would really like to know what kind of stuff you learn and what courses you take during a 4 year interior design program that costs that much.
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Nov 12, 2014 21:58
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SarutosZero posted:I would really like to know what kind of stuff you learn and what courses you take during a 4 year interior design program that costs that much. http://www.drexel.edu/westphal/undergraduate/INTR/ It looks like it's an Art/Art History hybrid. I'm sure it's a real thing and a real degree, but $30k a year in loans seems outrageous. But the "expensive required degree" problem is a real one. My girlfriend's career requires a masters degree (one that isn't offered by all that many places in fact) and the starting pay is around $33-36k. What are you supposed to do there? She's just toiling away at $40k+ in loans that she absolutely needed to get a job, but will never really make enough to pay back.
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Nov 12, 2014 22:04
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melon cat posted:She spent $150,000 for a degree in Interior Design? Some people look down on people who go to community college, regardless of the standards of the school. Plus they might want to get the whole "uni" experience. SarutosZero posted:I would really like to know what kind of stuff you learn and what courses you take during a 4 year interior design program that costs that much. I'd wager at quite a bit of it went to cost of living. I was allowed something like $5,000 per semester on top of a Pell grant. At a community college that actively tried to stifle the amount of debt students were getting into.
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Nov 12, 2014 22:06
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Knyteguy posted:Some people look down on people who go to community college, regardless of the standards of the school. Plus they might want to get the whole "uni" experience. I can understand getting the whole "uni" experience (I've been down that road), but I wouldn't pay over $100K for it when there's a less expensive, perfectly-viable alternative for it. There's nothing prestigious about putting off your long-term savings/home-buying/car buying plans for several years because of some strange sense of pride. A glance at that program she took boasts about the program being "CIDA accredited (Council for Interior Design Accreditation)". This is something else that I've been noticing a lot of, lately. Instead of getting actual work experience, people are paying for all of these trumped up, bizarre "accreditations" that obscure organizations are offering. Do they really think that your clients aren't going to let you feng shui up their shoebox condo simply because your program wasn't "CIDA accredited"? What a scam. melon cat fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Nov 12, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 22:41
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MJBuddy posted:And some cities don't have high COL, like Chicago. And living at a high COL with high debt is actually good, if you're paying it off, because debt is nominal. Incomes are not that much higher in big cities. Certainly not enough to cover the fact that you're paying twice as much for rent in some cases. Companies out in flyover country have to be more competitive with salaries to attract the talent they need because a lot of people have the attitude: Barry posted:You couldn't trade me all the salary in the world to move from Chicago to Iowa. Barry posted:Congratulations, you can get Amazon to bring knickknacks to your little hamlet. There's a big difference between East Boondocks and a mid-sized, relatively cheap city like Detroit, or Pittsburgh, or Des Moines. The latter don't have THAT much less than a "holy-poo poo, rent is what?" COL area like NYC or the Bay Area, and unless you're in a specific sector, the salary won't be that much lower. Nocheez posted:Can we get back on topic and take the housing argument to another thread? Parent's cosigned, which is most likely the case in the vast majority of these horror stories you read. No bank is gonna give some kid $150,000 they know they probably won't get back, even if it's not dischargeable. They approve them because they know that they can sucker the parents into paying a lot of it as well when the kid doesn't make it. ChipNDip fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Nov 12, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 22:48
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melon cat posted:Do they really think that your clients aren't going to let you feng shui up their shoebox condo simply because your program wasn't "CIDA accredited"? What a scam. I think you're confusing interior design with interior decorating?? Design seems more like planning/architecture, not matching curtains with rugs.
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Nov 12, 2014 22:56
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ChipNDip posted:There's a big difference between East Boondocks and a mid-sized, relatively cheap city like Detroit, or Pittsburgh, or Des Moines. The latter don't have THAT much less than a "holy-poo poo, rent is what?" COL area Oh, you're absolutely right. I don't know if my reading comprehension isn't up to snuff and this was covered earlier, but I figured the discussion was about West Bumblefuck, IA.
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Nov 12, 2014 22:58
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xie posted:I think you're confusing interior design with interior decorating?? Design seems more like planning/architecture, not matching curtains with rugs. I don't think an interior designer would have any say in architecture though they might consult with one.
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Nov 12, 2014 23:18
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xie posted:I think you're confusing interior design with interior decorating?? Design seems more like planning/architecture, not matching curtains with rugs. In either case, similar programs are definitely offered at local community colleges at a much lower cost, and usually with co-op placements. melon cat fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Nov 13, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 23:24
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ChipNDip posted:There's a big difference between East Boondocks and a mid-sized, relatively cheap city like Detroit, or Pittsburgh, or Des Moines. The latter don't have THAT much less than a "holy-poo poo, rent is what?" COL area Heck, Houston is the fourth largest city in the US, has a great food scene, plenty of cultural amenities and it's far cheaper than NYC. The commutes and the summer on the other hand...
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Nov 13, 2014 02:25
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melon cat posted:That's... lame. So they've got no problem racking up 6-digit debt, just so long as they're not viewed as one of those "groundfeeding community college people". I think you've got it backward. Because people look down on community colleges, it could be necessary to go to a 4 year college to gain entry into the industry at the level she is aiming for.
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Nov 13, 2014 02:47
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This, from my friend, perfectly encapsulates the Australian attitude toward property:quote:But my mate bought a town house on the water in Williamstown for about 600k he's on 90k and the property value has gone up by around 20k in that year. It's certainly doable, you just need a modest house. This same mate went on to say, "my mate earned $100,000 for a deposit during three years at uni, of course it can be done". Neglecting to mention of course that "mate" probably lived at home and didn't spend a time on rent or any other expenses.
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Nov 13, 2014 03:53
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You need to stop talking to your friends.
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Nov 13, 2014 03:59
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fiery_valkyrie posted:You need to stop talking to your friends. No he needs to talk to them more so we can laugh at them. Most of us have a lot of financially illiterate friends who wouldn't ever listen to anything we say. Might as well make use of them for an example of what not to do. In relation to the interior design degree discussion you really need to get the degree from the same school that also teaches architecture. Especially if you want to get a better job and not just be a limited cad technician. Interior designers that I deal with do not have that much difference in education from the architects, and in a number of cases are considered architects even though they cannot legally use the term. Any professional degree you need to consider the school carefully as that will be the network of people you know and deal with. They may even be future employers or employees.
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