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Xoidanor posted:Who are you even responding to when 98% of the page has been discussing environmentalism and journalism? Is it in response to Cardiac? Kudos on staying true to your username with your posting I guess. I think immigration is overlooked by all of you on purpose!
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Nov 11, 2014 00:58
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Nah, it's interesting to talk about swedish political parties and their varying degrees of moral bankruptcy. Immigration is kinda divisive and always starts a lot of poo poo.
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Nov 11, 2014 09:00
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Oh Swedes, you sure are a tolerant and nice bunch of folks  edit: seriously, a friend became depressed when living there and had to move back: I don't wonder why 
Ligur fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Nov 11, 2014 |
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Nov 11, 2014 12:23
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Seeing as you're the personalization of Fear of the Other we're not really wondering why you think so either.
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Nov 11, 2014 13:00
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Ligur posted:Oh Swedes, you sure are a tolerant and nice bunch of folks You're a massive parody of yourself you know that right? Marcus Birro is basically Swedens version of Archie Bunker, except he is a real guy.
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Nov 11, 2014 13:58
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Ligur posted:Oh Swedes, you sure are a tolerant and nice bunch of folks Are you really trying to pull a "you are intolerant of my intolerance; now who's the real bad guy here?  " argument?
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Nov 11, 2014 14:05
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Konec Hry posted:Seeing as you're the personalization of Fear of the Other we're not really wondering why you think so either. Heehee, is this a Swede lecturing anyone from any other place about fearing "the other"?  If you want to find a place where people are more hostile to those who don't belong to your own reference group you'll probably have to travel to Middle-East.Postorder Trollet89 posted:You're a massive parody of yourself you know that right? Marcus Birro is basically Swedens version of Archie Bunker, except he is a real guy. So it's ok to threaten him and his family with death because he is like Archie Bunker except a real guy. Sure thing bro. (Also read about Fear of the Other above.) Neeksy posted:Are you really trying to pull a "you are intolerant of my intolerance; now who's the real bad guy here? Uhhh, I'm not Marcus Birro. What the gently caress? No, I'm just laughing at Swedish public discourse.
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Nov 11, 2014 14:10
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uno.mannschaft posted:Thats not the term i would use here? Well, "being complete dumbasses" is kind of rude.
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Nov 11, 2014 14:12
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computer parts posted:Well, "being complete dumbasses" is kind of rude. Nah man it's just politics. All parties do their best to appear as having values without implementing policies that alienate voters, including MP. Starving the beast is lowering taxes to limit government spending, not really whats happening here. uno.mannschaft fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Nov 11, 2014 |
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Nov 11, 2014 19:10
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Ligur posted:Oh Swedes, you sure are a tolerant and nice bunch of folks Birro is a Catholic among other things, not the best example of swedish mentality. Deaththreats on Twitter are kinda sad though. And I agree that considering how many immigrants we have in Sweden the picture of the swedish people as blonde with blue eyes does need a makeover.
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Nov 11, 2014 19:19
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I've seen ~the browns~ pop up in childrens advertisements, but I'm not exactly expecting toy makers to reflect Swedish culture/morality here. These are the guys that color code their entire stores into SUPER PINK and BABY BLUE sections  They have about 0 interest in anything but their ideal vision of society (to push toys).
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Nov 11, 2014 20:36
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Pimpmust posted:I've seen ~the browns~ pop up in childrens advertisements, but I'm not exactly expecting toy makers to reflect Swedish culture/morality here. These are the guys that color code their entire stores into SUPER PINK and BABY BLUE sections Even that is just inertia, they're just doing it that way because that's how the marketers of today had it growing up.
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Nov 11, 2014 20:42
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uno.mannschaft posted:Nah man it's just politics. All parties do their best to appear as having values without implementing policies that alienate voters, including MP. Lowering the money that nuclear powerplants get, making it harder for them to expand and so on is most definitely limiting what they can do with their money. Have you seen the state of our plants? I don't blame MP for that, but it's like they want them to explode.
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Nov 11, 2014 21:22
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Wild Horses posted:Lowering the money that nuclear powerplants get, making it harder for them to expand and so on is most definitely limiting what they can do with their money. Have you seen the state of our plants? I don't blame MP for that, but it's like they want them to explode. Thats not what starving the beast means though. Starving the beast is lowering taxes to limit public spending. Here the government wants to raise taxes and lower subsidies to make nuclear power unprofitable. I don't think thats the same thing. And with regards to MP they say they think this is the way to go in order to avoid getting sued like the German govenment.
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Nov 12, 2014 07:02
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Captain Scandinaiva posted:It could also be that their profession, researching phenomena and happenings in society, mean they become biased in a certain direction. Nah, journalists are as much followers of group think as other groups, the only difference is their ability to propagate their world views which is obviously different from the common man. Reading an article within an area you know, shows how little most of them know. As for the support of MP, there was an article earlier this year, where it was shown that MP got no critical articles within the span of a couple of months. This lack of investigation into MP have also made them less vetted than other parties and it really shows up now when they are part of the ruling coalition. But I wouldn't call journalists die hard believers in a political cause, I would rather describe them as feel-good activists that describe themselves as good and therefore their opinions must be good and others bad. As for my predictions, there is a good thread on Flashback following this for Swedish newspapers. https://www.flashback.org/t1946234p238 As always, some filtering of morons is necessary. Xoidanor posted:Let me remind you that ETC has been selling their paper for almost a year soon and that they're still growing in subscribers. Haven't ETC had a rather interesting approach in getting money out of the environment? Would they be able to go on without state support? Xoidanor posted:There is not a single Swedish newspaper to which this doesn't apply. This is also largely why everyone has been panicking about our new minister of culture, they expected some kind of hint to how the investigative journalism of the future is going to support itself and they got nothing. AB and Expressen don't get pressstöd as it is given to secondary newspapers. Svd would have died a long time ago without it, which is kinda ironic given their leading pages. As for the future support of the investigative journalism, it seems kinda hosed. The money that is required to keep Swedish newspapers on the current level requires a vastly higher pressstöd, which is not going to happen. Alhazred posted:http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avpixlat#Avpixlat_i_svensk_samh.C3.A4llsdebatt Anyone reading a news source and not looking at it critically is incredibly naive. This also applies to main stream news sources. The infamous Sandviken report by PWC published in DN is a good example of this. Also, living in Stockholm makes you biased since it is more or less a gated community surrounded by water. Ligur posted:Heehee, is this a Swede lecturing anyone from any other place about fearing "the other"? As for fearing the other, the reason for the growing anti-semitism in Malmö is never really discussed for obvious reasons. Ligur posted:So it's ok to threaten him and his family with death because he is like Archie Bunker except a real guy. It is interesting with the hate-talk on the internet. Swedish news sources had a campaign where they attributed this to SD-followers/Avpixlat and so on, but it kinda died out when it was shown that hateful comments/death threats was as prevalent among the left-wing as on the right-wing. Ligur posted:Uhhh, I'm not Marcus Birro. What the gently caress? No, I'm just laughing at Swedish public discourse. Well, you are not alone in that. Although you don't have to live with this poo poo.
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Nov 12, 2014 09:08
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But seriously, first of all, the question posed in that study from 2011 was "What party do you prefer today?", that's not the same thing as being a die-hard supporter or even voter of that party. Secondly, the answering frequency was about 60% I think. For instance, 356 journalists who worked in the field of politics answered the poll. There were also only slightly more answers from national news outlets compared to local papers. But I do agree the large concentration of media to Stockholm is a bad thing. That's how the free market wants it though, so welp.
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Cardiac posted:As for fearing the other, the reason for the growing anti-semitism in Malmö is never really discussed for obvious reasons.
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Nov 12, 2014 09:38
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Nonsense posted:Good, each and every country should not accept immigrants who stand below strict standards of behavior. Source your quotes mate
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Nov 12, 2014 10:45
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Waaaah the Christians are out to get me
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Atal Vataman posted:To post something on topic: Two words; welfare reform. Interesting though, because the changes in the welfare system were initiated well before this government's time.
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Nov 12, 2014 11:11
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Rutkowski posted:Uh, yeah it is? IT MUST BE TEH NAZIS RIGHT? No but really is it discussed and if it is, what does the discussion say? I have no idea. Quantum Mechanic posted:Source your quotes mate That dude was talking about some general concepts that have existed and have been discussed with that topic for the past 10-15 years, and most who are interested in the topic to any extent know about. Those "duhr it doesn't exist unlass u goen sourc evary singal word" replies are loving numbing. But also a very common "counter-argument" with D&D posters, who, even if seeing a source, usually either just refuse to read it or claim it can't be a source because it was printed in the wrong newspaper or is up on the wrong site, thereby "winning" the "argument". That said, broad ideas that are not exactly physical sciences but enter a (touchy) realm of sociology are difficult to even define exactly. For example, a classical liberal might say that people who live in a ghetto reminiscent of a parallel society (for example, well, many immigrant heavy suburbs here and there, where no natives live, but where there might live almost exclusively muslim immigrants, or turkish immigrants, or whatever, and their descendents) are living in a type of a self-made ghetto. The hard left will say that they do not, but that the evil society forces them to live in the ghetto and the parallel society is largely a hyperbole and really they are all fine social democrats but simply not given jobs. How do you source a discussion like this, when it obviously comes to two different political views not agreeing with each other? Ligur fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Nov 12, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 11:46
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Nonsense posted:Good, each and every country should not accept immigrants who stand below strict standards of behavior. But how is it possible to vet the immigrants before you allow them to enter a country. Or do you want to give them a trial period before they receive citizenship? I don't think a majority works for any common good, be they natives or immigrants, most folks just go about their daily lives. Some assholes resort to crime and is a pain in the rear end for any country and its population. But if you can't vet people before they arrive as immigrants it pretty harsh to say we won't take any immigrants because some of you are gonna gently caress up and become criminals. I also don't think that "There are many Europe-born kids around Europe, that live in their own self-made ghettos, who do not even know the native language of the country that they live in." Young people in my experience are very good at learning languages and though you probably would notice a difference when comparing literacy with natives of the same age, this has more to do with them switching between two or more languages because their parents or grand parents haven't learned the language.
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Nov 12, 2014 13:09
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Ligur posted:
nonsense was trolling, that entire paragraph was copied verbatim from reddit
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Nov 12, 2014 13:19
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uno.mannschaft posted:But how is it possible to vet the immigrants before you allow them to enter a country. One idea to "vet" at least asylum seeking immigrants would be to send everyone who has destroyed their travel documents on purpose back whence they came. Because they could be literally anyone. Are they anti-government bloggers who are personally persecuted because of their views and actually deserve asylum? Or engineers or nurses with useful skills from a town that recently turned into a warzone, who actually deserve a temporary asylum and might be welcome for a longer stay as well? Or perhaps people who just wish to move after better infrastructure and the possibility of finding work in Europe, which has nothing to do with asylum? Or someone who just didn't make it in their own country and wants to restart? Or a criminally inclined person who is in trouble in his own country because of his inclinations, or a known radical religious nutcase who wishes to blow up the decadent West? We can't know. But every single person will tell you they are in the "personally persecuted, good guy" group. But that would cut asylum seekers closer to 1000 than 80 000 a year, so of course you can't do that  Other than that, you can't really if a person seems to have a clean record and comes to work with a good curriculum vitae, but after finding out an immigrant is one of the criminally inclined ones, returning him home adds a plethora of positives. But it usually isn't done in Nordic countries, even if the crimes are quite horrific. Which in turn adds fuel to parties like SD. TheIllestVillain posted:nonsense was trolling, that entire paragraph was copied verbatim from reddit Hahahaha ok. It isn't like there ain't enough real posts like to go around so who could tell! Ligur fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Nov 12, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 13:24
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Yeah I bit on that troll p hard lol Anyway Ligur posted:One idea to "vet" at least asylum seeking immigrants would be to send everyone who has destroyed their travel documents on purpose back whence they came. Because they could be literally anyone. Are they anti-government bloggers who are personally persecuted because of their views and actually deserve asylum? Or engineers or nurses with useful skills from a town that recently turned into a warzone, who actually deserve a temporary asylum and might be welcome for a longer stay as well? Or perhaps people who just wish to move after better infrastructure and the possibility of finding work in Europe, which has nothing to do with asylum? Or someone who just didn't make it in their own country and wants to restart? Or a criminally inclined person who is in trouble in his own country because of his inclinations, or a known radical religious nutcase who wishes to blow up the decadent West? We can't know. But every single person will tell you they are in the "personally persecuted, good guy" group.
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Nov 12, 2014 15:08
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Ligur posted:One idea to "vet" at least asylum seeking immigrants would be to send everyone who has destroyed their travel documents on purpose back whence they came. Because they could be literally anyone. Do you live in a country where you could be killed if anyone knew who you were or a country where getting travel documents is virtually impossible?* Well, sucks to be you, you are going back. Instead we could do what we do now and let the proper authorities (like customs or the police) investigate their claims. *Like in Eritrea were seeking asylum is considered treason.
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Nov 12, 2014 15:48
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http://www.dagensmedicin.se/jobb/ambulansfack-vill-ha-militarutrustning/ I would like to remind our dear neighbors that we sell an excellent ambulance for this sort of thing: 
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Nov 12, 2014 16:21
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Ligur posted:IT MUST BE TEH NAZIS With anecdotal evidence as someone who works within the teaching profession, mostly in schools in areas with a decent amount of social misery, I can say that I've encountered both muslims and non-muslims with antisemitic views. The difference, however, is that every single non-muslim who have pushed the issue is actually quite brainwashed with antisemitic propaganda(holocaust-denial, NWO/culture marxism, stuff like that) while most of the muslim kids(usually around the age of 13-19) I've teached base their antisemitism on Israel being a jewish country i.e all jews are bad. As you can see that's easily disproven and something I continue to do every time the issue appear(and as I'm primarly teaching in religion, samhällskunskap and history I probably face the issue more often than others within the profession) and I can say that I've noticed attitudes does change when people actually challenge it. *the series of antisemitic vandalism on schools and religious institutions and attacks on individuals in Stockholm last year and the beginning of this year was at first pegged to be kids of muslim faith by media and some police statements and the nazis pushed the whole false-flag poo poo. Few dared to push that it was nazis responsible for it and those who pushed it the most(because they had proof) was Linje 17 Mot Rasism who staged a rally in the area most often the victim of these attacks to show that the locals were united against them. That rally was in Kärrtorp in the middle of December. The nazis, primarly SMR, continued to push the false-flag poo poo(especially after the attack where media started reporting on it more as well as several hilarious grafitti fails) and do it today(although with much less intensity) even after several of their activists were arrested while spraypainting swastikas and threats on Kärrtorp Gymnasium. EDIT: Sorry for the long unstructured shitpost, wanted to clarify while being distracted by other stuff.
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Nov 12, 2014 18:26
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uno.mannschaft posted:Yeah I bit on that troll p hard lol Yes I've read the same from immigration workers and border officials who deal with this stuff, and various books and publications studying the topic. The same smugglers also paint very rosy tales about how wonderful life will be when you reach Sweden (or Norway or even EU). And then you end up in some old estate or hotel in the middle of nowhere, because Sweden can't handle the mass and you can't just give away thousands of roomy apartments in the middle of Stockholm each month. And they will feel cheated and probably angry at Swedes for having them live near a small community in crowded rooms and the wrong foods. But what can you do? They all say they are escaping from immediate death and personal threat because of their beliefs or ethnicity or such, so isn't it better to be safe in the old house than to be tortured by an evil regime? But I digress... Destroying documents has been increasing all the time: the networks who transport asylum seekers keep tabs on things and appear know every new regulation and shift of policies before the receiving countries do. In Norway some years ago the number increased every year until close to 100% of asylum seekers appeared as if grown from earth like mushrooms, with no documents whatsoever. One of the more unfortunate results is that when you arrive to a social democratic information and service state with little reqirement for low skilled labour, having to reinvent your identity makes you fare poorly in the job market for a long time... Alhazred posted:Do you live in a country where you could be killed if anyone knew who you were or a country where getting travel documents is virtually and so on. I'm calling this one the more common myths "Good People" use to explain away people with no identification popping up all over Scandinavia. Persons who jump out of airplanes and ships and walk to the first official requesting asylum must have had travel documents. There's no way around it. (For example in Norway there was an airport which received planeloads of people, up to 70 a time, in one of the cheaper airlines flying to Italy who said they were somalians requesting asylum and had no papers: it is not possible they did not have them at the start of the journey.) Look. Asylum seekers do not simply fall into a ditch in some catastrophe zone or refugee camp, and suddenly wake up in SWEDEN next to a police station of all places. Yes some take a boat across the mediterranean, but that's a minority. And even then, to make it to Sweden takes quite a bit of travelling through many countries, which leaves a trail. Look at the map. Count the miles. You need documents to get inside EU, or they are made for you when you do, and likewise when you fly or sail, and nobody enters EU in Sweden or Norway, that's for sure. If this sounds unlike to you, you try getting into Middle-East or Africa yourself with no documents whatsoever. Of course there are various scams which enable to people reach Nordic countries without documents (people rotate passports through third parties, or employ expensive expert human smugglers, but you can't smuggle tens of thousands of people a year into Norway, Denmark or Sweden with no documents and nobody noticing anything. Our border guards notice if you bring too many cases of beer much less human beings in your trunk). Rutkowski posted:I, uhh, don't really know what you're looking for here? Well kind of what you posted was what I was looking for so thanks! In Finland nobody really talks about muslim or any other antisemitism. It really isn't a factor here, maybe that's why, but the SD-minded people of Finland are of course angry at the media because the media doesn't report about the evil muslim antisemitism in Malmö in a dastardly cover-up! (And fail to notice our media doesn't really report much anything about Malmö to begin with and two jews being harassed in the street isn't breaking news here and shouldn't be.) edit: Rutkowski posted:(holocaust-denial, NWO/culture marxism, stuff like that Oh yeah this is disturbing and IIRC really didn't even exist much say 10 or 15 years ago?! The jews are organizing the collapse of the Western world! All jews are evil and conspire against the white race! Dahhh! Of course, jews have been persecuted since forever, but this is a new strain of persecution that just wasn't there in the 90s. At least I didn't know if it was. I know bloggers or anti-immigration personalities (well, not personally, but read their rants) who used to rave about the horrors of mass immigration amongst other things, and over the years have turned into raving about the forementioned jew conspiracy instead. Well I guess the most important thing is to rave about some threat so you know good for them. One interesting thing which I don't know if you have considered or not, Rutkowski, the jew dread of muslim teenagers is probably family bred, but the NWO/culture marxism dread is... internet bred. All the free "information" sure brings englithment upon us all
Ligur fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Nov 12, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 19:07
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SD lays out propositions like its 1897. http://www.interasistmen.se/granskning/sd-vill-infor-sarlagstiftning-att-invandrare-tycker-till-om-politik-ar-ett-problem/ http://www.interasistmen.se/dumheter/sd-granska-inte-kungen-och-ge-honom-mer-inflytande-vid-valet-av-statsminister/ http://www.riksdagen.se/sv/Dokument-Lagar/Ovriga-dokument/Ovrigt-dokument/Kungens-roll-vid-val-av-statsm_H2022909/?text=true http://www.riksdagen.se/sv/Dokument-Lagar/Ovriga-dokument/Ovrigt-dokument/Medborgarskapets-betydelse_H2022911/?text=true Highlights include: -Immigrants should be required to swear an oath of loyalty to the loving KING. Not even I have to do that. -Immigrants need 10 years of posessed citizenship to stand for election. -THEY WANT THE loving KING TO TAKE OVER THE ROLE OF SPEAKER IN PARLIAMENT. How anyone, even nils, could vote for these loving fascists is unbeliveable. They literally want to take our system back 120 years. Postorder Trollet89 fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Nov 12, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 19:15
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:-THEY WANT THE loving KING TO TAKE OVER THE ROLE OF SPEAKER IN PARLIAMENT. Hey good for him, he could use some work.
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Nov 12, 2014 19:28
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Ligur posted:One idea to "vet" at least asylum seeking immigrants would be to send everyone who has destroyed their travel documents on purpose back whence they came. Because they could be literally anyone.
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Nov 12, 2014 19:37
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Not to mention how do you know they destroyed their papers in the first place? I smell concentrationcamp limbo untill an investigation comes up negative or positive.
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Nov 12, 2014 19:38
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uno.mannschaft posted:Thats not what starving the beast means though. Starving the beast is lowering taxes to limit public spending. Here the government wants to raise taxes and lower subsidies to make nuclear power unprofitable. I don't think thats the same thing. And with regards to MP they say they think this is the way to go in order to avoid getting sued like the German govenment. One is doing X to Y, the other is doing X to Z. Totally different!
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Nov 12, 2014 19:38
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kissekatt posted:If they could be literally anyone, how would you know where to send them? To the moon! Where they say they came from, obviously. Ur so clever to have found this misstep in logic durr hurr. Point was, there should be a way to encourage the people who organize trips/human smugglres to disencourage destroying travel documents instead of the other way around. That is one of them. You can send a message to the asylum seeking trains: it's not difficult. The moment country X applies a new policy that makes cheating, benefits or granting asylum more difficult or more easy, the asylum seeker waves change target within months. This applies to Sweden too. If you send out a message everyone is welcome, everyone will come, even those who would not have otherwise fled or just "fled". Postorder Trollet89 posted:Not to mention how do you know they destroyed their papers in the first place? I smell concentrationcamp limbo untill an investigation comes up negative or positive. This was explained in depth already.  Think people, think! You don't teleport from Somalia or Eritrea to Sweden if you are a poor asylum seeker about to be shot or tortured! Ligur fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Nov 12, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 19:39
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Ligur posted:I'm calling this one the more common myths "Good People" use to explain away people with no identification popping up all over Scandinavia. Persons who jump out of airplanes and ships and walk to the first official requesting asylum must have had travel documents. There's no way around it. (For example in Norway there was an airport which received planeloads of people, up to 70 a time, in one of the cheaper airlines flying to Italy who said they were somalians requesting asylum and had no papers: it is not possible they did not have them at the start of the journey.) Look. Asylum seekers do not simply fall into a ditch in some catastrophe zone or refugee camp, and suddenly wake up in SWEDEN next to a police station of all places. Yes some take a boat across the mediterranean, but that's a minority. And even then, to make it to Sweden takes quite a bit of travelling through many countries, which leaves a trail. Look at the map. Count the miles. You need documents to get inside EU, or they are made for you when you do, and likewise when you fly or sail, and nobody enters EU in Sweden or Norway, that's for sure. And that is why their claims is investigated. You make it sound like anyone who shows up without paper is automatically granted asylum.
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Nov 12, 2014 20:21
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Alhazred posted:And that is why their claims is investigated. You make it sound like anyone who shows up without paper is automatically granted asylum. Ahha. And what on earth makes you think everyone is granted asylum if they arrive without papers, after reading my post? I said destroying papers is 1) common 2) counter-productive for real asylum seekers 3) makes everyting harder for everyone involved and should be discouraged 4) that close to 100% of asylum seekers having misplaced their papers without intent is highly unlikely. Read again. I didn't even touch the topic of which percentage is granted asylum. (That said, while their claims are investigated, which can take from months to years, they have to be housed somewhere.)
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Nov 12, 2014 20:33
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computer parts posted:One is doing X to Y, the other is doing X to Z. Totally different! One is lowering taxes to limit government spending, the other is raising fees to limit private profits. Yes totally different, glad we agree!
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Nov 12, 2014 20:34
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Ligur posted:that close to 100% of asylum seekers having misplaced their papers without intent is highly unlikely. I never claimed that 
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Nov 12, 2014 20:56
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Ligur posted:One interesting thing which I don't know if you have considered or not, Rutkowski, the jew dread of muslim teenagers is probably family bred, but the NWO/culture marxism dread is... internet bred. All the free "information" sure brings englithment upon us all
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Nov 12, 2014 21:00
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Alhazred posted:I never claimed that But you contested that asylum seekers come from places where travel documents just can't be had, when I wrote it appears they are destroyed on purpose? And I said it's very unlike either way that 100% of asylum seekers don't have them, because it's not even possible, and in fact it is highly probable most of them had travel documents before or right after gaining entry to EU, but that they "disappear" on the way to Sweden? I mean... what is our difference of view here? And again I ask, why would you think after reading my post everyone without documents gets asylum? Rutkowski posted:Yeah that's pretty much what I hear during the discussions or when they wish to talk to me about it after class. Well it's cool any students wish to talk about these things after class. If I'm trying to see something positive in all this. Ligur fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Nov 12, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 21:07
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uno.mannschaft posted:One is lowering taxes to limit government spending, the other is raising fees to limit private profits. Yes totally different, glad we agree! One is lowering access to money to discourage an activity, the other is lowering access to money to discourage an activity.
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Nov 12, 2014 22:37
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